Full Version: A munchkin's best friend?
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| Match grade ammunition can certainly have a noticeable effect on the most common measure of accuracy, group size. Compare the results in these three tests, for example. After all, consecutively fired bullets impacting close to each other is pretty much the definition of accuracy in a small arm. |
Hmm thats very interesting. I'd also orasm to have a rifle like that
Part of it I suppose is that some of the muntion types are likely what i'd class as 'el chepo'. 'el chepo' rounds have little to no real standards the bullet heads can infact come with dents in them whcih will most certainly affect your balistic trajectories.
So I'm not quite sure how much of a difference 'decent' factory made rounds say.. winchester would compare to 'match grade' if you not only fired them in groupings out of a rifle but that rifle was also fitted in an unmoveable brace. Though that rifle setup does come quite close. And obviously certainly enough to be telling.
While I'm sure you would see -some- improvement. If your using decently made munitions to begin with you shouldnt I would think see startling differences. But then again as your link poitns otu I could be totally off the mark. I've jsut never personally noticed much of any difference (though competition wise I'd still use match ammo just so I didnt have to deal with misfires, and hey if it does improve my accuracy that sure as hell cant hurt any either)
To be honest I'm dsomewhat supprised at the reasonable accuracy from the south american munitions compared to the israli and especially rather noted 'factory' made munitions. Then agian factories these days tend to have really 'loose' definitinos of 'quality'
Personally I think it's kinda sad when 3rd world ammo beats out supposed '1st world' munitions but then it's all a matter of quality standards. And goes to show you there is truth (of one degree or another) the the general public perceptions of things. And as far as hand loaded ammo. I find most shooters who go that route are often the type that like quality over quanity kinda thing.
| QUOTE |
| Actually short range or not handguns IRL suffer from the -exact- same problems as sniper rifles at long/extreme range. Except its even worse with a handgun because even bracing it two handed, you dont generally have a proper rest for the gun itself. Slap a laser guide on a pistol some time and try to use it on the range. It's useless for actual aiming. It's only use at that point is purely for quick reflex shots because the dot shows your basically 'on target'. But your overall accuracy still goes right out the window unless you use the sights. |
Isn't that pretty much why handguns have such short ranges?
| QUOTE |
| Send them on a run where its all tight quarters. Or somewhere where you cant just port around a sniper rifle thats likely as long as their leg. If their -still- inventive enough to find a way, ok fine. But long guns (Rifles, shotguns etc) still have issues with getting caught up on things that an SMG or handgun doesnt in confined quarters. |
Not if you try shooting through the walls.
| QUOTE |
| I once had a co-worker who was an ex sniper and used to pot guys by hand loading a .50 cal MG with a single round. |
One thing I learned from the Marines was that the M2 can be used as a semi-decent sniper weapon. The .50 BMG round has a long range and does not get deflected by wind, and by the time it starts to drop, it has one quite a ways downrange.
| QUOTE |
| The game designers like the idea of "HMG"s that are only slightly heavier than LMGs and that can be lugged around even by humans without too much trouble, so they've made them very weak. It's not a good idea to use them as an example of a .50 BMG-range weapon. |
I was under the impression that the LMG hovered around 5.56mm and got their power from a longer barrel, the MMG was like our modern M60 (7.62mm), and the HMG was practically defined by the Browning M2 and it's derivatives. Maybe I think too realistically...
Thanks to the posts here, I think have a few ideas on how to handle things better now and more of an idea behind the logic of SR4 weaponry.
| QUOTE (jervinator) | ||||
Isn't that pretty much why handguns have such short ranges?
Not if you try shooting through the walls. |
On the handguns. It's part of the reason they have such short range yes. Because beyond a certain point (and also a very large part due to the shorter barrel) your accuracy goes to hell in a handbasket past a certain point, never mind that the bullet is perfectly capable of probably going half a mile or more. So yes that generally is -part- of the reason that handguns have such short range. The other part is, that even at close range (several meters) their actualy not that accurate, theres alot of waver in the barrel even then. It gets worse the longer you try to hold your aim but their quite good for snapshots, and a quickly aimed shot. ANd of course depending on the handgun you can have reasnably minimal recoil with a heavily modified low caliber handgun, to ALOT of recoil. Infact the caliber doesnt even have to be that big.
Best example I can give is I've fired both a competition modified .45 and an old WWII german Luger pistol. The latter is 9mm. The .45 has a good deal of weight to it, and had some recoil compensation, firing 3 rounds in 2 seconds I had a bout a 8 inch spread. Doing the same with the luger, well.. the third round didnt even hit the target. The reason being hte luger would blow away in a strong wind. There's no weight to the pistol itself even loaded i'm sure ti's less than a pound, or it at at least sure as heck feel sthat light and doenst do a thing to counter the recoil. (But man do those shells ever ejectlike mad they were going up 10ft straight up in the air and pinging off the soundproof tiles!)
As for shooting through walls. To an extent yes, but first you have ot be able to bring your rifle to bear uppon said wall. And while the wall might be relatively light material (say in an office cubicle environment) that doesnt mean that at relatively tight quarters your goign have an easy time doing that. Case in point if you have say less than an arm length of space around you you can manage that with an SMG very easily, you CANNOT easily manage that with a large rifle. It CAN be managed, but the point is, not easily. THe guy with the SMG can quickly swing around aim and fire, while your trying to do teh same thing your quite likely to get your barrel caught up on something. (And then, considering how cheap balistic materials are if it's say, a high security setting, simply shooting through the wall can be alot harder than you expect it to be)
| QUOTE (Kesslan) |
| [QUOTE=jervinator,Dec 7 2006, 08:49 PM] Because beyond a certain point (and also a very large part due to the shorter barrel) your accuracy goes to hell in a handbasket past a certain point, never mind that the bullet is perfectly capable of probably going half a mile or more. |
Depends on how you define "short range". I can, standing, hit a roughly man sized silhouette about 50% of the time at 100 meters with my old Glock 22. I was shooting with a cop who was a better shot than me and he had a much harder time of hitting it with his .45. So it might be related to the ballistics of the .40 SW, but it worked.
It isn't as easy as shooting that target with a shotgun slug at 100 meters, and I'm not going to do any 2 second hammers on it, but it's certainly doable.
| QUOTE (kzt) |
| [QUOTE=Kesslan,Dec 7 2006, 09:59 PM] [QUOTE=jervinator,Dec 7 2006, 08:49 PM] Because beyond a certain point (and also a very large part due to the shorter barrel) your accuracy goes to hell in a handbasket past a certain point, never mind that the bullet is perfectly capable of probably going half a mile or more. [/QUOTE] Depends on how you define "short range". I can, standing, hit a roughly man sized silhouette about 50% of the time at 100 meters with my old Glock 22. I was shooting with a cop who was a better shot than me and he had a much harder time of hitting it with his .45. So it might be related to the ballistics of the .40 SW, but it worked. It isn't as easy as shooting that target with a shotgun slug at 100 meters, and I'm not going to do any 2 second hammers on it, but it's certainly doable. |
ANd I"m not saying it's impossible. Just look at the people who IRL use a .357 magnum revolver with a scope to go deer hunting. Their shooting at some pretty long ranges.
The thing is an RPG system can only go so far as to assuming a 'realism' level. And then they put in a hard cap range. As I've said before, the range of the weapons IRL isnt limited by the munitions 'listed effective range'. Thats merrely the range at which a decent normal shooter could still 'effectively' hit a target. An exceptional/well trained shooter on the other hand could do even better. In other cases they just refer to the point wher ethe bullet starts to drop which is effectively the same thing because a well trained shooter knows to simply aim a little higher thus going beyond the 'effective maxium range' of the weapon. Thats not something most RPGs take into account.
| QUOTE (jervinator) |
| I was under the impression that the LMG hovered around 5.56mm and got their power from a longer barrel, the MMG was like our modern M60 (7.62mm), and the HMG was practically defined by the Browning M2 and it's derivatives. Maybe I think too realistically... |
For calibers I'd agree with you, and that's how they are in my games (though I don't make much use of LMG/MMG since those can be hard to find and/or define in the current world of SAWs and GPMGs...). The differences in barrel length between full size assault rifles and most SAWs and LMGs is a few inches this way or that, so a different damage code is undeserved as well. But Shadowrun machine guns are not like real world MGs, they are like movie or FPS MGs: LMG, MMG or HMG they are all much the same size and basically meant to be fired from the hip with a gyromount, all doing more damage than assault rifles, less than sniper rifles.
Yeah on the MG issue I find its generally that way as well.
You can count on some difference in the size of the rounds as well though. LMG might be akin to 5.56mm, MMG 7.62mm and HMG definately wouldnt be .50 but perhaps somewhere abit below .50 cal/14mm
One could argue that the HMG simply uses a (for real world) non standard munition size. Just like IRL HMGs use rounds that generally arent used in anything other than HMGs and the occasional anti material rifle.
You can count on some difference in the size of the rounds as well though. LMG might be akin to 5.56mm, MMG 7.62mm and HMG definately wouldnt be .50 but perhaps somewhere abit below .50 cal/14mm
One could argue that the HMG simply uses a (for real world) non standard munition size. Just like IRL HMGs use rounds that generally arent used in anything other than HMGs and the occasional anti material rifle.
Coming up with actual caliber equivalences that fit both the way the weapons are meant to be used and the stats they are given is largely impossible in all editions of Shadowrun. Unless you're either prepared to change the stats or throw logic right out of the window, it's a pointless excercise.
Non-standard ammunition or not, the SR HMGs are nothing like the ones we know from real life. For one thing, they don't rip apart APCs at 500 meters with FMJ ammo.
Non-standard ammunition or not, the SR HMGs are nothing like the ones we know from real life. For one thing, they don't rip apart APCs at 500 meters with FMJ ammo.
True enough and under SR3 you could put the hurt on quite a few (lightly) armored vehicles with AV rounds in a pistol.
Not to mention the rather odd thing going on with the .50 cal rifle which IRL can punch through an engine block no problem but in SR3 since it was only APDS couldnt do what an AV pistol round could do (technically speaking). Unless of couse you had a GM that let you make AV .50 cal rounds. But I never did, not that I really blame them.
No RPG system is totally sane really when it comes to ranged combat. I mean Heavy Gear you can at least technically make (a hideiously expensive) API (AP incindiary) round that has boosted range or damage. This round suddenly makes your standard anti infantry sniper rifle capable of harming light armored vehicles. And further more at ranges far greater than the games anti material rifles can even fire. (The anti infantry rifles can allready go farther than the AM rifles with no modification at all as it is)
To top it off if you got lucky or you were actually using it to snipe people you could not only pucnh a hole right through the games toughest body armor (Think SR3 heavy dikoted milspec) but you could then go on to possibly punch through or at the very least kill the guy behind him too. And to top it off if either target somehow survived, you still have the incindary effect damage for about 3 rounds which is guaranteed to finish him off.
Not the most realistic thing ever. Even if it's like a million years ahead of SR4. But I still like to try to have some sort of semi realistic explanation for stuff. I dont really have a problem with an HMG ripping an APC or very thinly armored light well.. guess you could call it tank or something a new one, since that happens IRL anyway. Look at some of those 'tanks' the japanese used in WWII. And for more modern equivilants look at the Bradley and other lightly armored vehicles.
I do agree though that they shouldnt do it quite as easily as they do, but perhaps some sort of advanced rules will come out with the new rigging book or what ever to at least.. improve the situation.
Not to mention the rather odd thing going on with the .50 cal rifle which IRL can punch through an engine block no problem but in SR3 since it was only APDS couldnt do what an AV pistol round could do (technically speaking). Unless of couse you had a GM that let you make AV .50 cal rounds. But I never did, not that I really blame them.
No RPG system is totally sane really when it comes to ranged combat. I mean Heavy Gear you can at least technically make (a hideiously expensive) API (AP incindiary) round that has boosted range or damage. This round suddenly makes your standard anti infantry sniper rifle capable of harming light armored vehicles. And further more at ranges far greater than the games anti material rifles can even fire. (The anti infantry rifles can allready go farther than the AM rifles with no modification at all as it is)
To top it off if you got lucky or you were actually using it to snipe people you could not only pucnh a hole right through the games toughest body armor (Think SR3 heavy dikoted milspec) but you could then go on to possibly punch through or at the very least kill the guy behind him too. And to top it off if either target somehow survived, you still have the incindary effect damage for about 3 rounds which is guaranteed to finish him off.
Not the most realistic thing ever. Even if it's like a million years ahead of SR4. But I still like to try to have some sort of semi realistic explanation for stuff. I dont really have a problem with an HMG ripping an APC or very thinly armored light well.. guess you could call it tank or something a new one, since that happens IRL anyway. Look at some of those 'tanks' the japanese used in WWII. And for more modern equivilants look at the Bradley and other lightly armored vehicles.
I do agree though that they shouldnt do it quite as easily as they do, but perhaps some sort of advanced rules will come out with the new rigging book or what ever to at least.. improve the situation.
What I was getting at is that the HMGs in Shadowrun don't penetrate vehicles nearly well enough to be considered similar to the HMGs we currently have in real life. M2HB + M33 Ball = 21mm of rolled homogenous steel @ 500 meters = busted up AFVs in the 10 - 15 tonne range. M2HB + M903 SLAP = 34mm RHA @ 500 meters = busted up AFVs in the 10-25 tonne range.
The HMGs in SR3 could barely manage somewhat similar performance with AV ammunition -- but then as you pointed out so could Ruger Super Warhawks, so that doesn't help.
The HMGs in SR3 could barely manage somewhat similar performance with AV ammunition -- but then as you pointed out so could Ruger Super Warhawks, so that doesn't help.
I miss Cannon Companion when at least thing made sense. A belt-fed full-auto sawed-off HVAR HMG with flechette ammo... you knew it was munchy but at least you could follow the logic. I can't wait until Arsenal to hopefully make SR4 more sensible.
Aye, I'm looking forward to Aresnal myself. I'm hoping they bring back at least some incarnation of everyone's favourite shotgun: The SPAS-12. Wasnt too bad, auto, could use any ammo type, but instead of a clip used a tube mag so still had to be hand loaded. Not that that was a huge downside in my oppinion. Besides IRL you got autoshotguns that can use any shotgun ammo type and not only that have a clip to boot. Hell just look at the now defunct Pancor assault shotgun. Drum mag, which could also be converted to be used as a landmine and it has a HUGE assortment of available munition types.
I'm actually not quite sure why it failed.
Either way I never found a wide variety of weaponry, not to mention the rules surrounding building your own etc a bad thing in an RPG. And if you really want to avoid 'Das Uber Munchkin' type stuff like full auto panthercannons firing AV rounds you can really just houserule it.
I'm actually not quite sure why it failed.
Either way I never found a wide variety of weaponry, not to mention the rules surrounding building your own etc a bad thing in an RPG. And if you really want to avoid 'Das Uber Munchkin' type stuff like full auto panthercannons firing AV rounds you can really just houserule it.
There's still Auto Assault-12, which AFAIK is sorta in low-rate production.
Ah well either way I'm all for more ways for people to be splattered across walls and such. I'm also currious as to if their goign to bring back dikote or not. I partially look forward to aresenal but I also sort of dread it. AFterall any ubermunchkinized weaponry can also be brought up against the PCs.
I don't like disallowing anything I feel is technically possible; I prefer to allow it with a price tag. The PJSS Elephant Rifle has an ammo capacity of 2(b). The Ultimax HMG weighs a lot and eats ammo quickly which adds more weight to get a usable ammo supply and also has a hefty recoil penalty (FA only) unless you take the time to set up the tripod or get a gyro harness. Those balance even without financial considerations.
I think I know of that gun. Kind of heavy; drum mags tend to be a bit massive.
I think a short equipment list is a kiss of death and lack of build-your-own rules is always disappointing. I only forgive SR4 for that because it's new and SR3 came through with the goods in Cannon Companion, Man and Machine, and Rigger 3. Ever try 3G3 or VDS? They are actually meta-tools for weapon and vehicle design for multiple systems. Too bad there aren't any conversion rules for 3G3->SR4
I think I know of that gun. Kind of heavy; drum mags tend to be a bit massive.
I think a short equipment list is a kiss of death and lack of build-your-own rules is always disappointing. I only forgive SR4 for that because it's new and SR3 came through with the goods in Cannon Companion, Man and Machine, and Rigger 3. Ever try 3G3 or VDS? They are actually meta-tools for weapon and vehicle design for multiple systems. Too bad there aren't any conversion rules for 3G3->SR4
Yeah, I've used generic gear build systems for alot of systems. There just isnt something (that i"m aware of at least) that so far works well for SR4. That doesnt mean I cant just make stuff up on the fly though based uppon currently available SR4 material and past SR3 material
I generally prefer using the proper book system and then hope it's properly playtested. Which I must say musnt have really been the case with some of the SR4 stuff or tehre wouldnt be so much errata alrleady that rebalances thigns. Like flechette rounds. I allways wondered about that.
I mean SR3 there was a big downside to using it on armored opponents. SR4 it was like. +2/+2 Huh.. so.. I get mega benifit using it against unarmored people, and no real penalty at all using it against armored. Sweet!
Course then they changed it to +2/+5 and then it's back to.. oh. Well guess not. Same with EX and EX-EX. Now APDS is back to being king. Which at least following SR3 should have been the case the first time around. As to ruling stuff out of the game, generally I dont do it either. Especially when the game is known to be highly lethal to begin with.
THough at some point if your not careful it just gets silly (Rifts) where armor/gear forever goes up, up up up up up up up up up * Infinty in magnitude of munchkinism.
I generally prefer using the proper book system and then hope it's properly playtested. Which I must say musnt have really been the case with some of the SR4 stuff or tehre wouldnt be so much errata alrleady that rebalances thigns. Like flechette rounds. I allways wondered about that.
I mean SR3 there was a big downside to using it on armored opponents. SR4 it was like. +2/+2 Huh.. so.. I get mega benifit using it against unarmored people, and no real penalty at all using it against armored. Sweet!
Course then they changed it to +2/+5 and then it's back to.. oh. Well guess not. Same with EX and EX-EX. Now APDS is back to being king. Which at least following SR3 should have been the case the first time around. As to ruling stuff out of the game, generally I dont do it either. Especially when the game is known to be highly lethal to begin with.
THough at some point if your not careful it just gets silly (Rifts) where armor/gear forever goes up, up up up up up up up up up * Infinty in magnitude of munchkinism.
I personally hate game systems with a high degree of customized firearms. I figure that the guns sold are pretty much the best way of designing them within reason.
I like it when I can pick up a gun and use it. Add smart link, laser sights, gas vents and a quick draw holster and that's all I need for the rest of the game.
Firearms +1 don't suit me. And some mods are so common sense that every gun would have it standard.+
I like it when I can pick up a gun and use it. Add smart link, laser sights, gas vents and a quick draw holster and that's all I need for the rest of the game.
Firearms +1 don't suit me. And some mods are so common sense that every gun would have it standard.+
By that logic, all cars would be Ferraris... and have Ferrari price tags to match. And I prefer a sawed-off shotgun like the Roomsweeper. Very concealable under a long coat, and then smartlink it for effect and add burst-fire in case you need to REALLY sweep the room and don't care about the recoil.
Different people have different tastes/needs so customization is needed. But it has to be BALANCED customization. Cannon Companion limited you by space and many mods added weight which could be an issue for those of average strength. Also, certain mods were mutually exclusive. There were limits. There was logic.
Rifts is an example of going too far and yet not far enough. No real custom gear or classes, too much off-the-shelf gear... /me takes meds to avert Rifts-induced psychotic episode
Different people have different tastes/needs so customization is needed. But it has to be BALANCED customization. Cannon Companion limited you by space and many mods added weight which could be an issue for those of average strength. Also, certain mods were mutually exclusive. There were limits. There was logic.
Rifts is an example of going too far and yet not far enough. No real custom gear or classes, too much off-the-shelf gear... /me takes meds to avert Rifts-induced psychotic episode
Yeah CC was a great book. ANd you could build a 'custom' gun from scratch and it would still be in balance with everything else. And it covered things like what if you wanted a MADS invisible version of the Ranger Arms SM-3. Which I could VERY easily see a version of existing. Especially for use in urban environments where theres lots of MADS around.
Also while some features may have a 'certain sense to them' keep in mind were also dealing with the black market for guns in many cases. And my friend. THe black market has an astoundingly wide variety (Hell so does the legal market just not quite as big a one dependign on the country in question) of weapons available.
Africa, Laos etc are prime examples of this. You see the latest greatest in weapons, right along side everything from onlyh slightly older, guns to stuff that's home made or dates back to before WWII. The underground 2070's arms market would be no different, and probably alot worse due to the fact that so many people HAVE guns to begin with just about anywhere you go.
Also keep in mind the more you customize a weapon the more expensive it gets. Not everyone wants to shell out $3000 for a handgun. Also some people have certain preferences for what ever reason. IRL at the gunclub I used to go to, one guy bought a handgun made and produced by a Toronto Ontario based company (I live in Ottawa) partially because it was a Canadian company, largely becuase he liked that particular make of .45. But he was also a competition shooter, and modified the gun for competition shooting. He put in some serious recoil compensation and a magwell.
Magwells in general for example make a hell of alot of sense because even if the mag hits the 'lip' it'll still slide right in. But you dont actually see them on many clip feed handguns. There are plenty of thigns from all sorts of eras that at one given time or another make alot of sense (or even in soem cases no sense at all) that havent/didnt become general useage. Some eventually did but it took a long time. Others lead on to better things such as the procussion cap vs flintlock. It took a while to catch on, then it was purely for the rich, and eventually filtered down to the average soldiers weapon and eventually got encorporated into cartridges and is the basis of the modern cartridge today.
Also while some features may have a 'certain sense to them' keep in mind were also dealing with the black market for guns in many cases. And my friend. THe black market has an astoundingly wide variety (Hell so does the legal market just not quite as big a one dependign on the country in question) of weapons available.
Africa, Laos etc are prime examples of this. You see the latest greatest in weapons, right along side everything from onlyh slightly older, guns to stuff that's home made or dates back to before WWII. The underground 2070's arms market would be no different, and probably alot worse due to the fact that so many people HAVE guns to begin with just about anywhere you go.
Also keep in mind the more you customize a weapon the more expensive it gets. Not everyone wants to shell out $3000 for a handgun. Also some people have certain preferences for what ever reason. IRL at the gunclub I used to go to, one guy bought a handgun made and produced by a Toronto Ontario based company (I live in Ottawa) partially because it was a Canadian company, largely becuase he liked that particular make of .45. But he was also a competition shooter, and modified the gun for competition shooting. He put in some serious recoil compensation and a magwell.
Magwells in general for example make a hell of alot of sense because even if the mag hits the 'lip' it'll still slide right in. But you dont actually see them on many clip feed handguns. There are plenty of thigns from all sorts of eras that at one given time or another make alot of sense (or even in soem cases no sense at all) that havent/didnt become general useage. Some eventually did but it took a long time. Others lead on to better things such as the procussion cap vs flintlock. It took a while to catch on, then it was purely for the rich, and eventually filtered down to the average soldiers weapon and eventually got encorporated into cartridges and is the basis of the modern cartridge today.
The problem is not with gun customization, but the amount of granularity provided by the rules. As the SR rules for weapons are rather grainy, it sould only be highly significant changes in the weapon that lead to any in game changes. However, why would a PC spend 2000Y on a customized 1911 when they can spend 500Y on a glock and have the same in game stats?
If the game has very fine distinctions between weapons, then showing that difference without making the competition pistol some sort of uber hand cannon is possible, but SR donse't have them.
What's the in game difference between an M-16, G-36, AK-74, FAMAS, etc? They weight slightly different amounts and that's about it.
If the game has very fine distinctions between weapons, then showing that difference without making the competition pistol some sort of uber hand cannon is possible, but SR donse't have them.
What's the in game difference between an M-16, G-36, AK-74, FAMAS, etc? They weight slightly different amounts and that's about it.
| QUOTE (Crusher Bob) |
| Why would a PC spend 2000Y on a customized 1911 when they can spend 500Y on a glock and have the same in game stats? |
Jesus>John Moses Browning>Everyone else
I point my fingers and laugh at your plastic gun!!
Yes, but combined with the ludicrously low suggested pay scales the 1500Y I saved buying my glock allows me to hire a whole team to runners to break into your base and kill ur doods. What have you got to match that, browning boy?
I always felt that most of the weapons were interchangable within their class for the reasons Crusher Bob states. However there are certain weapons that stand out. The SR3 Thunderbolt and SR4 Sakura Fubuki for their RAPID bursts. The Hammerli for it's extended range. The Roomsweeper... is it a heavy pistol or a shotgun that uses HP ranges?
Sometimes there are obvious reasons for special rules. The Ranger SM4 is delicate because it disassembles. Sniper rifles have great AP because... umm... well let's forget that for the moment.
And the Glock actually would be slightly harder to pick up on a MAD except that they put X-ray opaque dye in the plastic frame because security people couldn't recognize it as a weapon. It wasn't actually invisible; the barrel showed up nicely as did the other metal parts. However if Glock wasn't that accomodating to the untrained security personnel some might pay a little more for the Glock. As for the Colt... Ford still sells cars even though others make better for cheaper.
Sometimes there are obvious reasons for special rules. The Ranger SM4 is delicate because it disassembles. Sniper rifles have great AP because... umm... well let's forget that for the moment.
And the Glock actually would be slightly harder to pick up on a MAD except that they put X-ray opaque dye in the plastic frame because security people couldn't recognize it as a weapon. It wasn't actually invisible; the barrel showed up nicely as did the other metal parts. However if Glock wasn't that accomodating to the untrained security personnel some might pay a little more for the Glock. As for the Colt... Ford still sells cars even though others make better for cheaper.
I'm just saying that in any world with competitive pricing different guns will cost more. Maybe Ares has better marketing or whatever. To a player looking at stats some might be more expensive than others, but some players like to get tricked out nickel plated pistols to carry and give them names. And if you're doing that you might have certain brand loyalties.
IRL I personally like to buy American made guns. Springfield, Ruger, Remington, Colt, etc. I'm sure Glock makes nice guns and I've shot a few but I just like American guns for whatever irrational reason. And sometimes it's worth more money.
I personally loathe shooting bullpup guns in the game. They make my Orc look ghey and french even if the Ares Alpha has two extra recoil comp. I use the FN HAR smg.
Until Shadowrun is a VR game and you can "feel" the difference in the different guns we'll never really know which gun you actually prefer.
IRL I personally like to buy American made guns. Springfield, Ruger, Remington, Colt, etc. I'm sure Glock makes nice guns and I've shot a few but I just like American guns for whatever irrational reason. And sometimes it's worth more money.
I personally loathe shooting bullpup guns in the game. They make my Orc look ghey and french even if the Ares Alpha has two extra recoil comp. I use the FN HAR smg.
Until Shadowrun is a VR game and you can "feel" the difference in the different guns we'll never really know which gun you actually prefer.
The burst-capable one with the smartlink, RC 2, and a sound suppressor. 
Sure, but one of them might feel better in your hand. Or look cooler tucked into your belt... 
And if a cool ivory grip for 1000y is what it takes to get hawt Elf girls to cyber you then dammit, that's money well spent!
And if a cool ivory grip for 1000y is what it takes to get hawt Elf girls to cyber you then dammit, that's money well spent!
I want the best compromise between cost and quality. Fortunately the US is better at making guns than cars. However they tend to be a little too traditional in some respects and thus lag behind their European rivals in some areas at some times.
Maybe the 4-column clip that allows holding 50-rounds in the length of a 32-round clip like the Spectre is a good idea... if your hands are large enough to curl around the wider grip. Maybe you need the 100 round drum of the Calico, or is it too top-heavy? I think we all agree that the option to put multiple bullets in the air very quickly without recoil spoiling your aim is a good thing. So is killing you enemy before they kill you; dead men don't get that hot elf love
Maybe the 4-column clip that allows holding 50-rounds in the length of a 32-round clip like the Spectre is a good idea... if your hands are large enough to curl around the wider grip. Maybe you need the 100 round drum of the Calico, or is it too top-heavy? I think we all agree that the option to put multiple bullets in the air very quickly without recoil spoiling your aim is a good thing. So is killing you enemy before they kill you; dead men don't get that hot elf love
Well sure, there are some standards of performance we all strive to attain in a firearm. But within the category of acceptable guns minor variations in cost is not the only factor used to pick a weapon. The guns have pictures too...
I am modest in my firearms needs; I am secure in my manhood and have no reason to compensate. Give me what works.
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