sure. but why is the other person blowing that much money on ammo they aren't skilled enough to use reliably in the first place?

DP of around 12 is "the usual for non-sammies" shooting at someone in your games? Jesus.

Sorry, but Agil 5/Pistols 5 and a smartlink (12 dice) sounds pretty sammie-scale to me. Sure, you can get higher than that, but 12's an awfully solid DP for anybody.

so what you're saying is:

1) you don't include agility boosting 'ware in your definition of street sam?
2) you don't expect a street sam to specialise for those extra 2 dice?
3) you don't expect a street sam to have a reflex recorder for firearms?

because personally i would expect 5(7) agility, 5(specialisation) in the skill, and a reflex recorder, for around 16 dice. [edit] oh, and of course the smartlink would add another 2... almost forgot... that's 18 dice [/edit]

He's referring to non-street sams as having less than 12 dice. Street same would of course have plenty more.

he was stating that his expectation is for a sammy to have about 12 dice, and that therefore non-sammy types will have less.

i can agree with less, if we're talking about someone who is not combat optimised at all (for example, a pure face character, a support magician, a decker who never shows up in the meat if he can avoid it, and so forth). but 12 dice is pretty reasonable for someone who is likely to face combat, but is not geared to be a combat monster (for example, combat deckers, infiltration specialists, and so forth).

It's because the SR4 Gods actually care about their supplicants enough to listen to their prayers, unlike some other games. The answer may not always be what you wanted, but you'll get one nonetheless.

....for the character in question, the Viper was the best bang for the buck at the time while remaining fairly concealable. It is the only burst fire HP on the list for now (until Arsenal comes out and "hopefully" the Svalette Guardian is back), which also had a built in SL & recoil comp. At a 10DV (burst mode) it had one of the best damage codes of the heavy pistol class. Actually it is (was) a pretty good weapon for someone who is not a combat monster sammie (like my hacker Violet, who had done pretty well with it on previous missions).

Since when does the Viper come standard with a 'built in' Smartlink or Recoil Compensation?

Flechette is not a single point wound. Therefore it is not, circumstances pending, unreasonable to keep some of the Armor value even if they are aiming for an unarmored portion of the target.

Of course the numbers are pretty bizzaro compared to what flechette actually does. But as long as you check any knowledge about that at the door it looks like it should work.

Too bad they didn't remove the halving of the armor for Stick'N'Shock to run the board.

I believe that the fluff describes (or at least used to) the flechette ammunition used by a Viper as a single sliver, and not multiple shards like buckshot.

Er, it says:

Yeah, you could read the plural as 'each time you fire a single sliver comes out'. But there isn't really anything concrete supporting that assumption to override the basic definition of what flechette ammo is. *shrug*

This tickles my brain, in a way that reminds me of a memory. In other words, this fluff sounds vaguely familiar. You definitely read something like this somewhere about something, because I definitely read something like this about something, somewhere, too.

If you do find it definately mention it, I'm curious about it.

Not that whole of how flechette is handled isn't wierd. All seemingly sprouting from an all-too-literal reading of Gibson's description of Molly's gun in action, even though it isn't a complete rip-off because it doesn't have the option of firing a single posion dart versus the huge barrage of darts from multiple barrels.

That is from SR2 description.

The Viper is not listed in the Street Samurai Catalog or the Cannon Companion.

...don't have my BBB (or character sheet) with me at the moment, so I may have been confusing it with another weapon she carries (the Hammerli which does come with an internal SL). Nonetheless, her Viper is configured with both the internal SL & GV2.

oooooo... good houserule. i like.

*yoink* (actually, i'm not GMing anything atm... but if i was... )

yes, it would, but it would also increase it by 5, so its equivalent.

you say tomato, i say ketchup

So when will you have updated your house rules, then?

So anyway, that's where I got my idea of how flechette works.

Regarding the AP house-rule for flechette, I think that's a really good idea, but I think you should make it a little more general. Rather than making a house-rule for flechette, you should make it a house-rule for AP. Basically, "Positive AP modifiers can not more than double the target's armor" It does the same as what you're saying for flechette, but then when another ammo type comes out with a huge positive AP modifier, you don't have the problem of the impenetrable armor 1 t-shirt again.

The issue I see is that this still doesn't make sense.

SR4 P 149
Ballistic armor protects against projectiles that deliver large amounts of kinetic energy to a small area in short amounts of time, such as bullets, bolts, and arrows.


If this isn't what a flechette does then how does it work, being sharp and fast moving and all?


Remember that SR's ballistic armor isn't like modern soft ballistic armor, where arrows and icepicks can often penetrate armor that stops bullets.

How does that differ from the pointy end of a razor sharp arrowhead?

True, but I still give arrows a +1 AP for my house rules, because they are sharp buggers where bullets are just small blunt objects with a LOT of force behind them. I think that when some of the optional rules are released in the new books, that ammo assortments for projectiles will return.

Considering that the word Flechette means something like "little arrow" in French, why indeed?

Flechette is a general description, like Bullet. Not all are lightweight stamped aluminum. Tungsten or DU flechettes penetrate like mad.

For example:

Anti-Armor Flechettes


WDU-500X/B GPF: General Purpose Flechette

* anti-light armor warhead
* contains 80 tungsten flechettes weighing 280 grains (18 grams) each
* each flechette is capable of penetrating light armor (1.5 inches RHA)
* warhead functions at motor burnout, causing the flechettes to be expelled from the canister
* flechettes disperse in flight to maximize hit probability


WDU-5002/B FAT: Flechette Anti-Tank

* warhead loaded with five tungsten penetrator rods
* each rod weighs 1.5 lbs, capable of penetrating Main Battle Tank (MBT) side and rear armor NATO Triple Heavy Spaced
* 10 lb. class FAT warhead uses a fuze which expels flechettes from canister at motor burnout
* five penetrators per warhead dramatically increases hit probability over unitary warheads


The real issues with flechettes, which shadowrun blithely ignores, it that they are only effective in large numbers. Single shot flechette weapons (That is, one flechette at a time) were found to be ineffective in actually putting down bad guys. A dozen or two are a whole other matter, but a single one just isn't very effective. It's like getting stabbed once by an icepick. It might kill you eventually, but unless it hit something really vital it isn't going to keep you from doing violtent things for the next few minutes.

SHP is already done (v 1.9). Working at SGM 1.0 at the moment.

Exactly. Flechette in RL, vs SR, are actually pretty good at penetrating light personal armour. The problem being that they do relatively low damage, even against unarmored targets. So +2DV, +5AP are values that go in the opposite direction of what you'd give for something even remotely trying to envoke flechette.

But if you just play it as a game and are willing to overlook that wierdness, then the new numbers are at least an improvement or the originals.