Full Version: How do military units go after small bands of SRs?
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| yes, and you also said "it would take a war for them to do that." in the same post, no less. you're as fickle as an SR FAQ, sirrah! |
I was only paraphrasing my earlier quote. Yes, sure if the GM decides that every investigation goes into the Barrens, he can hold up your quote to justify going into the Barrens.
| QUOTE |
| I see the Star having lots of assets in terms of undercover agents and informants in the Z-zone. They will probably have a taskforce for gangs and the Z-zone area just to keep tabs of what's going just in case they need to head in, who are the power players that can cause problems to the rest of the region and also to develop intelligence assets. They are not paid enough to patrol the region, but that does not mean they won't go in there as a show of force and to head off problems when needed. |
But the reverse also applies. Remember if LS is going to mobilise so much manpower everytime they go in, that's plenty of warning to the people in the Barrens.
Well again it all comes down to it being worthwhile for the Star to go in. I mean to me several things would be taken into consideration. I'm also assuming at this point the runners have 'done something bad' and it's gotten all over the trid with their faces on the front page or something similar.
How bad does the Star look if they do not apprehend the runners in question?
How much is it gonig to cost the Star to send in their own people?
How much would it cost to send in 'deniable assets'?
How effective is posting a bounty on the wanted runners?
How is positing a bounty and not doing much else going to look like for the Star?
How fresh is the crime in the minds of the local citizenry?
How big an impact has it had on the public as a whole?
How much pressure is there comming out of the city management?
Does the Star actually know who did it?
Does the Star actually know where the criminals are?
Assuming they star does know where the runners are etc:
How much is it going to cost them to send in a force to capture the runners?
How much would it cost to send in a team of runners after the other runners?
What can go wrong in either case that would make the Star look even worse at doing it's job?
In an instance where the Star, dispite it's best efforts still cant even identify the actual culprits, and that there's still a huge public furor clambering for the runners very blood. I can certainly see the Star turning around going to one of it's prisons, picking out a few incarcerated prisoners that look about right and then promptly parading their corpses on TV. Or better yet, the live bodies, by offering the prisoners a 'get out of jail free card' as long as they play along with the dog and pony show. Only of course, to quickly have them killed once their out of the public eye to cover it up.
There is however a serious danger of the story getting out and if it did, one can only begin to immagine the fallout. So I would very much expect that the Star would then at that point go to ANY length to keep that story under wraps, not to mention quietly arrange for all involved to die in one way or another. And then probably arranging for those involved in taking out those involved, to also die.
How bad does the Star look if they do not apprehend the runners in question?
How much is it gonig to cost the Star to send in their own people?
How much would it cost to send in 'deniable assets'?
How effective is posting a bounty on the wanted runners?
How is positing a bounty and not doing much else going to look like for the Star?
How fresh is the crime in the minds of the local citizenry?
How big an impact has it had on the public as a whole?
How much pressure is there comming out of the city management?
Does the Star actually know who did it?
Does the Star actually know where the criminals are?
Assuming they star does know where the runners are etc:
How much is it going to cost them to send in a force to capture the runners?
How much would it cost to send in a team of runners after the other runners?
What can go wrong in either case that would make the Star look even worse at doing it's job?
In an instance where the Star, dispite it's best efforts still cant even identify the actual culprits, and that there's still a huge public furor clambering for the runners very blood. I can certainly see the Star turning around going to one of it's prisons, picking out a few incarcerated prisoners that look about right and then promptly parading their corpses on TV. Or better yet, the live bodies, by offering the prisoners a 'get out of jail free card' as long as they play along with the dog and pony show. Only of course, to quickly have them killed once their out of the public eye to cover it up.
There is however a serious danger of the story getting out and if it did, one can only begin to immagine the fallout. So I would very much expect that the Star would then at that point go to ANY length to keep that story under wraps, not to mention quietly arrange for all involved to die in one way or another. And then probably arranging for those involved in taking out those involved, to also die.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| I disagree. It's generally cheaper to take a bum and surgically alter him or her to match the picture that hit the trid, then stage a shootout somewhere safe and either parade the body or set up a kangaroo court for a swift execution. ~J |
You don't even have to surgically alter the bum - shotguns blasts to the face and most anything involving fire leave you with a corpse that's the right build, gender, and metahumanity.
Mind you, this won't help if the runner team consists of two cyclops, a satyr, and a gnome, but if Lone Star can't find that group of runners they should lose their contract.
I doubt the Star will send in an army to "pursue an investigation" that will be done by plaincloths cops. Canon is fairly wishy-washy on this. Hell, if they went in after a nosy matrix jocky they'll be in the barrens basically permantly.
| QUOTE (Angelone) |
| I doubt the Star will send in an army to "pursue an investigation" that will be done by plaincloths cops. Canon is fairly wishy-washy on this. Hell, if they went in after a nosy matrix jocky they'll be in the barrens basically permantly. |
Sometimes I wish that the cannon were as meticulous about what it said as we are when we worry about what it said.
If there's one thing I've learned from years of playing SR, never just write up some rules in a cavalier manner and introduce it into your game. Before actually using it in a game you want to think it over 3 times because even the difference between making something +3 TN instead of + 2 could make a big difference somewhere down the line.
In fact, I'd say always post it on Dumpshock Forums first for discussion and approval. Here, people who really know the game in terms of both statistics and cultural references will call you a moron and you'll realize why you shouldn't introduce the rule after all, and thus game balance is saved.
See, I'm not even being silly. Some people, like Ron Clark, are all about saccharine self-esteem building ("Rule 4: Respect other students' comments, opinions, and ideas.") and claim that ideas flourish when discussion is respectful and people feel safe voicing their opinions. However, after years of posting on bullshido.net, I realized that isn't true. Sometimes if someone is just simply wrong (as often happens when a would-be GM gets all excited about his or her idea while not maintaining a detached and comprehensive view of game statistics) you just gotta shut them down. Many ideas deserve some respect, but I think that if you're plainly wrong people should also be allowed to tell you without beating around the bush.
Besides, if you can't defend your idea on Dumpshock Forums, I don't think you'll be able to defend it with your players. Even if the players don't accuse you of writing a retarded rule to your face you know that they'll savagely complain about it and make jokes behind your back. See, I know this because sometimes when I was a player other players would do this if they thought the GM was wrong about something or not having a good grasp of statistics and rules.
I like to think of Dumpshock Forums as the anvil where ideas are either forged into sharp player character eviscerating katanas of 80s asian superiority or they snap under their own inherent lack of quality. Under the blows of James McMurray's hammer, of course.
Thanks, guys! I wouldn't be able to play or GM shadowrun with confidence without all you guys.
| QUOTE (Angelone @ Dec 28 2006, 08:17 AM) |
| I doubt the Star will send in an army to "pursue an investigation" that will be done by plaincloths cops. Canon is fairly wishy-washy on this. Hell, if they went in after a nosy matrix jocky they'll be in the barrens basically permantly. |
Well yes, they'd send in an undercover cop who doesn't look like a cop to do the investigation. There are plenty of investigators and law enforcers in the shadows, some of them being freelance like the PI archetype and some of them self-appointed guardians like Tin Star. It is easy enough for an undercover officer to blend in with these people and disguise his affiliation, at least for a time. However, they won't send in a uniformed cop or anyone flashing a badge because that badge will get the officer killed without a doubt. Everybody in the barrens hates the 'Star. The gangs hate them for being symbols of opposing authority and everyone else hates them for abandoning them to the gangs in the first place.
Lone Star's presence in the Barrens is analogous to those people who try to sell you Frag grenades and then charge you are 500
"on the spot fine" when you go for the bait in the Genesis game. They don't even drag helpless young women into alleyways to do unspeakable things to them in the barrens because it is so dangerous. They do that in Downtown Seattle.
Reading this topic about the SWAT and such going after shadowrunners, one thing that comes to my mind is the Robocop or Otomo cyborg (Robocop 3). Heavily cybered (perhaps you could go as far as cyberzombies) people who can meet the runners on their own turf as opposed to a squad of fleshy humans. Or, perhaps the Unisols (Universal Soldier), reanimated soldiers equipped with various cybernetics who get called in to do a job, have their memories wiped and then put back on ice until next time they're needed. Or, as one GM toyed with, a few riggers with anthromorph drones.
Projects like that are, at least to me, an idea to pit against a team that has pissed off a fair number of people. First and foremost, you're looking at already dead people going off to hazardous combat situations. It would be more cost effective (after all, you don't have to pay these people a salary, nor deal with pensions and health benefits). Secondly, those sort of combat units would be ready to deal with the high cybered types on their own turf, as opposed to swarming them with mass numbers of people and hoping their KP runs out.
Now, I agree with things like gassing them with stun gas (or something more dangerous if they are higher up the terror alert) since the security forces want to look good for the people who pay their bills. Destroying buildings, whether through their actions or their inaction, doesn't really look that good on their end of the quarter reports. I'm sort of reminded of the X-Com Apocalypse game. Aliens invade buildings of various corporations and your squads are called in to exterminate the aliens. You lose points for any damage, civilian death, and so forth.
Also, for the security teams, I wouldn't be surprised if they were more interested in the non-lethal takedown. As people said, not only the cyberware, but even organ-legging on the SIN-less for some extra cash, or recruiting them for jobs are viable options. Not to mention that whatever they sieze can be resold at auctions, or used by undercover operatives. The military on the other hand, since they typically (as I understand Shadowrun anyway) normally work for corporations directly, they would be interested in claiming back corporate property, the rest is up to the mood of their handler. There are a few groups that probably still work for the government, after all Seattle still has a National Guard or whatever they're called don't they? Those groups would be like the security forces, snatching up anything they can to resell for operating capital, or even just a little bonus on the side.
Projects like that are, at least to me, an idea to pit against a team that has pissed off a fair number of people. First and foremost, you're looking at already dead people going off to hazardous combat situations. It would be more cost effective (after all, you don't have to pay these people a salary, nor deal with pensions and health benefits). Secondly, those sort of combat units would be ready to deal with the high cybered types on their own turf, as opposed to swarming them with mass numbers of people and hoping their KP runs out.
Now, I agree with things like gassing them with stun gas (or something more dangerous if they are higher up the terror alert) since the security forces want to look good for the people who pay their bills. Destroying buildings, whether through their actions or their inaction, doesn't really look that good on their end of the quarter reports. I'm sort of reminded of the X-Com Apocalypse game. Aliens invade buildings of various corporations and your squads are called in to exterminate the aliens. You lose points for any damage, civilian death, and so forth.
Also, for the security teams, I wouldn't be surprised if they were more interested in the non-lethal takedown. As people said, not only the cyberware, but even organ-legging on the SIN-less for some extra cash, or recruiting them for jobs are viable options. Not to mention that whatever they sieze can be resold at auctions, or used by undercover operatives. The military on the other hand, since they typically (as I understand Shadowrun anyway) normally work for corporations directly, they would be interested in claiming back corporate property, the rest is up to the mood of their handler. There are a few groups that probably still work for the government, after all Seattle still has a National Guard or whatever they're called don't they? Those groups would be like the security forces, snatching up anything they can to resell for operating capital, or even just a little bonus on the side.
I just realized that if you annoy the players by having the Star come after them with neurostun you could always rub salt in the wounds by cracking JC Denton jokes.
Hmm, I wonder if the Shadowrun rules could be used for making a Deus Ex campaign?
Hmm, I wonder if the Shadowrun rules could be used for making a Deus Ex campaign?
Sure you could, especially with SR4, but SR3 would work just as well too. SR4 just works abit better since by 2070 the atmosphere is about the same when it comes to augmentation.
Cyberware is on the way out, and bio/nanoaugs are the new kings.
Deus Ex just makes the jump directly from cyberware to nanoaug is all. Though you could definately argue some of it (Like strength boosters etc) as being bioware. Actualyl alot of it seems to be more like high end bioware than nanoware.
It shouldnt be much of a streatch to just add in the same kinda weapons. And that 'nanosword' could be either a dikoted blade or a monosword.
I mean they even have the optical drone, which is around in cybereyes in SR4 though I dont recall if that exists under SR3
Cyberware is on the way out, and bio/nanoaugs are the new kings.
Deus Ex just makes the jump directly from cyberware to nanoaug is all. Though you could definately argue some of it (Like strength boosters etc) as being bioware. Actualyl alot of it seems to be more like high end bioware than nanoware.
It shouldnt be much of a streatch to just add in the same kinda weapons. And that 'nanosword' could be either a dikoted blade or a monosword.
I mean they even have the optical drone, which is around in cybereyes in SR4 though I dont recall if that exists under SR3
Body-0 rotodrones exist, or rather are trivially buildable in the rules. They're essentially the same idea.
~J
~J
Yeah but I think a flying eyball is abit more freaky.
Well, yeah, but there's no description given to them—you can have it be a flying eyeball if you want.
That aside, the drones from Deus Ex were not eyeballs.
~J
That aside, the drones from Deus Ex were not eyeballs.
~J
No, they were not. I think they might have been mounted on your head or something. Hard to say really but they were much too big to fit in an eyesocket.
Still. Nothing wrong with using the ocular drone as a representation. And for 'true to Dues Ex' plasma weponry just use a damage bleedoff like there is with laser weapons. Or hell, just swap plasma for laser. There you go!
I dont seem to recall there even being laser weapons in deus ex 1 or 2. Then the holdout version simply has hold out ranges, is uber tiny and probably MADS invisible.
Still. Nothing wrong with using the ocular drone as a representation. And for 'true to Dues Ex' plasma weponry just use a damage bleedoff like there is with laser weapons. Or hell, just swap plasma for laser. There you go!
I dont seem to recall there even being laser weapons in deus ex 1 or 2. Then the holdout version simply has hold out ranges, is uber tiny and probably MADS invisible.
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Dec 28 2006, 08:56 PM) |
| If there's one thing I've learned from years of playing SR, never just write up some rules in a cavalier manner and introduce it into your game. Before actually using it in a game you want to think it over 3 times because even the difference between making something +3 TN instead of + 2 could make a big difference somewhere down the line. |
I can think of several people who should have this stapled to their foreheads, and should have had it stapled there years ago.
| QUOTE (Wounded Ronin) |
| I just realized that if you annoy the players by having the Star come after them with neurostun you could always rub salt in the wounds by cracking JC Denton jokes. Hmm, I wonder if the Shadowrun rules could be used for making a Deus Ex campaign? |
You mean the UN section in Loose Alliances, isn't an expansion for playing Deus Ex with SR rules?
Would've fooled me.
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