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Kesslan
Well I mean any Shadowrunner should eventually plan for the day they get hit with a screw job. It -does- happen. Sometimes you get lucky and come out on top, often you dont.. and then.. in rare occasions totally unexpected things can come of it.
Sir_Psycho
If your team is drek hot enough to have the military/an entire lone star division gunning for them, or are breaking into a mil-spec corp facility, it's likely that the runners are going to have some pretty decent tech to combat. Alternatively, there might be an escape route or some sort of unexpected assistance/circumstance (A new Chicago Bug holocaust suddenly surfaces in the apartment building and suddenly the once tricky situation is the least of the SWAT and the runners problems) .

Also, the way you're talking about these ops, the PC's will have to have done something pretty extreme. A situation of a ten to one ration of cops/soldiers to runner, along with ridiculous magic and tech support (2000lb bombs? Please.)? The GM is obviously punishing the runners with way too much than they can handle, and either the GM is totally unfair, or it's time to roll initiative, followed shortly by hot from the printer character sheets.
Kesslan
Well thats the thing, some times the characters -do- go abit too far and then get caught at it.

I mean one job I pulled as a PC once was to waste some pro humanis political tyep dude and his whole family. The job was very specific

A) Kill him, and his entire family
B) IN burning letters write 'Trogs Rule!' on the front lawn

Add in the fact that this was your standard upper middle class neighbourhood and obviously it's going to hit the news and big.

So we went in, geeked mom and dad, took little timmy off to the orphanage (After our mage used a spell to stun him long before he ever had a chance to wake up). And since we accdientaly woke up mom and dad and one of the sammies got shot and was bleeding. I decided the most expediant thing to cover up any DNA evidence was to stop the bleeding there, and then promptly burn the place to the ground by soaking the interior with gas, and setting teh blaze off with 2 or 3 white phosophor grenades.

The letters and the bodies of mom and dad were setup on the lawn, lit, we then ran off with little timmy, ditched and burned our disguises, and dumped him off way way far away where in the end, he was never found again. It hit the news in a big way as expected. We got paid, and no one ever got caught from it.

But we got abit lucky to say the least in that regard, and we could well have screwed something up and promptly had the star out for our blood.
nezumi
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho)
If your team is drek hot enough to have the military/an entire lone star division gunning for them,

I disagree to the highest regard.

To get the military on you, simply do anything in or around a military compound (the biggest one being Ft. Lewis, which is pretty big). To get the SWAT team in, simply be a group of heavily armed people doing something illegal. Robbing a bank is certainly enough to get that sort of stuff called on you, and most runs are about as dangerous and take much more time. Honestly, in any case where the run is going on and word gets out to the Star about it, unless there's a reason why they shouldn't respond, they'll respond in force.
Grinder
Yeah, it makes no sense for the Star to send just a lone officer after your team. If a SWAT team is available and the runners fall under "armed, magically active and dangerous", a SWAT team will be sent.
toturi
QUOTE (nezumi)
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Dec 15 2006, 12:30 AM)
If your team is drek hot enough to have the military/an entire lone star division gunning for them,

I disagree to the highest regard.

To get the military on you, simply do anything in or around a military compound (the biggest one being Ft. Lewis, which is pretty big). To get the SWAT team in, simply be a group of heavily armed people doing something illegal. Robbing a bank is certainly enough to get that sort of stuff called on you, and most runs are about as dangerous and take much more time. Honestly, in any case where the run is going on and word gets out to the Star about it, unless there's a reason why they shouldn't respond, they'll respond in force.

Like maybe the runners are already in the darkest meanest most cop-unfriendliest even SWAT in Citymasters come out in bodybags Barrens?
Austere Emancipator
If places like that existed, the military could just deal with them like this.
Kesslan
QUOTE (toturi)
QUOTE (nezumi @ Dec 15 2006, 10:18 PM)
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Dec 15 2006, 12:30 AM)
If your team is drek hot enough to have the military/an entire lone star division gunning for them,

I disagree to the highest regard.

To get the military on you, simply do anything in or around a military compound (the biggest one being Ft. Lewis, which is pretty big). To get the SWAT team in, simply be a group of heavily armed people doing something illegal. Robbing a bank is certainly enough to get that sort of stuff called on you, and most runs are about as dangerous and take much more time. Honestly, in any case where the run is going on and word gets out to the Star about it, unless there's a reason why they shouldn't respond, they'll respond in force.

Like maybe the runners are already in the darkest meanest most cop-unfriendliest even SWAT in Citymasters come out in bodybags Barrens?

Yeah it depends on the invironment, but short of a Z-zone or something the star will still respond. And the star WILL go into the barrens after runners -IF- their considered big enough of a threat. ANd if thats the case they arnt sending just one swat team, but a whole damn army with heavy magical, drone and armored vehicle support.

But you really have to screw up big to have that kinda money sent at you.
toturi
QUOTE (Kesslan)
QUOTE (toturi @ Dec 15 2006, 09:49 AM)
Like maybe the runners are already in the darkest meanest most cop-unfriendliest even SWAT in Citymasters come out in bodybags Barrens?

Yeah it depends on the invironment, but short of a Z-zone or something the star will still respond. And the star WILL go into the barrens after runners -IF- their considered big enough of a threat. ANd if thats the case they arnt sending just one swat team, but a whole damn army with heavy magical, drone and armored vehicle support.

But you really have to screw up big to have that kinda money sent at you.

Only if you have an out and out war in the Barrens.

QUOTE (p70 New Seattle)
It would take an out-and-out war in another part of the district to draw Lone Star's attention.
Kagetenshi
Plus the 'Star would draw the attention of the Nukes, the Stilettos, the Crush, and just about every other major gang in Shadowrun.

Just a reminder for everyone: the Halloweeners, who specifically target (among others) Lone Star for special punishment, operate out of downtown. They have done this for years, and Lone Star shows no signs of successfully eradicating them.

~J
Butterblume
No gang would take a serious Cop Patrol head on, when it's ready for action, and they don't have to. The gangers would most likely melt away and reassert control when the cops are gone.

(I'm talking about several Citymasters here, with drone and mage support, as described in the New Seattle Sourcebook, not two puny patrol cars)
Kagetenshi
I sincerely doubt that. The Red Hot Nukes alone, for example, probably could and would if the patrol got near their turf.

~J
nezumi
Keep in mind, while backing down would be the prudent thing, successfully destroying half a dozen citymasters would be serious proof for just how bad ass your gang is. They have the advantage of it being on their turf, of guerrilla warfare, and they do have some pretty heavy ordinance.

I'd have to agree with kage. Taking out that Lone Star intrusion team isn't just self-defense, it's worth pursuing even if they never enter your turf at all.
Kagetenshi
Also, there's the question: if the gangs back down when Lone Star shows up, why is the area abandoned by the authorities in the first place?

Certainly Puyallup has the "natural hazards and wrecked infrastructure" excuse, but Redmond could be redeveloped just fine.

~J
Konsaki
Nuyen, or the lack there of
Butterblume
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Also, there's the question: if the gangs back down when Lone Star shows up, why is the area abandoned by the authorities in the first place?

The gangs know the Star will not stay, but be leaving in an hour or two, at the latest.

If the Star tried to stay, the gangs would probably object and fight back. That would lead to an almost classical asymetrical warfare/guerilla war, which the Star can't win.
Vaevictis
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Also, there's the question: if the gangs back down when Lone Star shows up, why is the area abandoned by the authorities in the first place?

Money?

The only people who live there are poor, so they're certainly not going to be able to pay the Star what it takes. And the rich neighborhoods are too busy paying attention to their own neighborhoods...

So my guess is that Lonestar says, "You know what Seattle? If you want it at *that* price, we're going to have to exclude the better parts of town from our regular patrols..." And Seattle's City Council says (in private), "That's fine. They've got no money, and they're all SINless and as such not voting, so we just don't give a rat's ass."
nezumi
The SINless don't count. Officially the barrens have a population of 0. It's unclaimed land. The prices around the city are skyrocketing. They suffer a similar problem to NYC, they're effectively an island, but host a very busy economy and a bustling population. If it were more cost effective to kick out the squatters and reclaim the barrens, I'm sure it would have happened. However the gangs are the primary force keeping that from happening, and they do that by keeping constant control of the area.
Konsaki
Firebombing will do wonders to reclaim unpopulated land... devil.gif
Sir_Psycho
QUOTE
I disagree to the highest regard.

To get the military on you, simply do anything in or around a military compound (the biggest one being Ft. Lewis, which is pretty big). To get the SWAT team in, simply be a group of heavily armed people doing something illegal. Robbing a bank is certainly enough to get that sort of stuff called on you, and most runs are about as dangerous and take much more time. Honestly, in any case where the run is going on and word gets out to the Star about it, unless there's a reason why they shouldn't respond, they'll respond in force.

QUOTE
Yeah, it makes no sense for the Star to send just a lone officer after your team. If a SWAT team is available and the runners fall under "armed, magically active and dangerous", a SWAT team will be sent.


I'm talking from a stricly game-running point of view here. Sure, in the Sixth World, that's all standard operating procedure. But if this was the consequence every time the PC's frag up a bit. It just doesn't make for fun gaming.

So in game terms, by the time you've been running the shadows long and hard enough to get this kind of attention, PC's have burnt enough Nuyen and Karma to have a chance of defending themselves/escaping (with their tails between their legs, of course), unless the GM is determined to put the characters straight into
the paper shredder.

nezumi
There are reasons the SWAT won't be sent right away. Let's assume there's an alert at some facility.

1) A drone leaves its nest and bobbles by the point of intrusion. It'll scan for anything of interest, tell intruders to put down their weapons. In a B rated zone, this takes maybe 5 minutes. The drone has a sensor rating of about 2, so it's not likely to catch anyone other than thugs.

2) A lone star patrol car will drive by. The officers will walk around the area, try to determine the cause of alarm and probably call the owners of the facility. In our B area, they'll arrive in about 10-15 minutes, if not longer, and they'll take some time to investigate (assuming there's nothing really obvious outside). If a door is open, they'll call for backup.

3) Backup arrives it bits and pieces over the next 30 minutes. Once they have maybe four or five cars around, they'll call for people to come out and then send a few drones in to check for a cause for the alarm. If the drones don't find anything obvious, the fat cops walk in, decide if anything interesting happened, and if the owner is there, may decide to do a quick search of the facility. Imagine this takes quite a while, depending on the size of the facility.

The only time the SWAT is called in is when someone actually identifies these characters as having heavy weapons and/or heavy magic. SWAT response in a B zone would be 30-45 minutes (or longer).

What this means is don't carry big honkin' guns into the facility, don't leave witnesses who can call the cops. I ran a game where one guy broke into the guard's lounge and killed all the guards BUT ONE (because she was cute). While he told her he'd spare her life if she was helpful, she was using her cyber radio to call in the SWAT. That guy earned is trouble, but the party got the head's up that police were coming in and STILL had time for them all to bug out.
ShadowDragon8685
QUOTE (nezumi)
There are reasons the SWAT won't be sent right away. Let's assume there's an alert at some facility.

1) A drone leaves its nest and bobbles by the point of intrusion. It'll scan for anything of interest, tell intruders to put down their weapons. In a B rated zone, this takes maybe 5 minutes. The drone has a sensor rating of about 2, so it's not likely to catch anyone other than thugs.

2) A lone star patrol car will drive by. The officers will walk around the area, try to determine the cause of alarm and probably call the owners of the facility. In our B area, they'll arrive in about 10-15 minutes, if not longer, and they'll take some time to investigate (assuming there's nothing really obvious outside). If a door is open, they'll call for backup.

3) Backup arrives it bits and pieces over the next 30 minutes. Once they have maybe four or five cars around, they'll call for people to come out and then send a few drones in to check for a cause for the alarm. If the drones don't find anything obvious, the fat cops walk in, decide if anything interesting happened, and if the owner is there, may decide to do a quick search of the facility. Imagine this takes quite a while, depending on the size of the facility.

The only time the SWAT is called in is when someone actually identifies these characters as having heavy weapons and/or heavy magic. SWAT response in a B zone would be 30-45 minutes (or longer).

What this means is don't carry big honkin' guns into the facility, don't leave witnesses who can call the cops. I ran a game where one guy broke into the guard's lounge and killed all the guards BUT ONE (because she was cute). While he told her he'd spare her life if she was helpful, she was using her cyber radio to call in the SWAT. That guy earned is trouble, but the party got the head's up that police were coming in and STILL had time for them all to bug out.

He obviously never learned about this wonderful thing called stick'n'shock or gel rounds, did he? Or a radio jammer.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (nezumi)

What this means is don't carry big honkin' guns into the facility, don't leave witnesses who can call the cops. I ran a game where one guy broke into the guard's lounge and killed all the guards BUT ONE (because she was cute). While he told her he'd spare her life if she was helpful, she was using her cyber radio to call in the SWAT. That guy earned is trouble, but the party got the head's up that police were coming in and STILL had time for them all to bug out.

How comically perverse.


I actually think I like your overall style regarding this issue, though, because it provides an interesting reason for the PCs to take a minimum force approach. It would be fun to try out one campaign which uses this dynamic.
nezumi
WR - Thank you! I wasn't aware my approach was so unusual nyahnyah.gif

ShadowDragon - No, he hadn't. In his (partial) defense, I'm ONLY using the main manual in that game (all n00bs). The thing that really gets me is he left swearing he was "set up" and spent a lot of time trying to figure out by who. Now he's spent a thousand or two tracking down the security guard (who is currently 'between employment' as the only reason she survived was dumb luck and she's the witness to a major blemish on the corporation's record). I don't look forward to seeing how he deals her retribution. Hopefully he turns the jammer on FIRST.
Ed Simons
QUOTE (nezumi)
The only time the SWAT is called in is when someone actually identifies these characters as having heavy weapons and/or heavy magic.  SWAT response in a B zone would be 30-45 minutes (or longer).


Your examples are very reasonable.

Of course if the GM is using the Lone Star Teleportation Table in New Seattle, you get SWAT in about 2 minutes.
nezumi
You're right, which is why I consider the Lone Star book the rules on how it "should" be, not how it is. It's based on the information provided to the general public. I did bring in the equipment, structure and drone nests from that book, but everything else is more based on reality, with real cost-reduction pressures. Remember Lone Star got this gig in part because they were the lowest bidder, and they're operating in an urban area which means congestion at all hours.
Butterblume
QUOTE (Ed Simons)
QUOTE (nezumi)
The only time the SWAT is called in is when someone actually identifies these characters as having heavy weapons and/or heavy magic.  SWAT response in a B zone would be 30-45 minutes (or longer).


Your examples are very reasonable.

Of course if the GM is using the Lone Star Teleportation Table in New Seattle, you get SWAT in about 2 minutes.

Those response times in New Seattle are about as ridiculous as a single patrol car answering an alarm call.

Two dozen lonestar officers, armed with assault rifles and reasonably armoured, arriving in citymasters can be called a SWAT team, or not, depending on how you see them. I say they are the local SWAT team, since they use special weapons and tactics. Now, if they encounter heavy fire or similar problems, they try to secure the perimeter and call a High Threat Response Team or whatever you like to call it. That would be the guys who train all the time when they are not deployed.

I would see the response time of the local SWAT more like 10-20 minutes, which gives the vhars enough time to get clear, if they are aware of the alarm.

I really should read the lonestar book, I know a guy who knows a guy who has it. (actually, I know the second guy too, but it sounds cooler this way wobble.gif).
nezumi
Keep in mind, response times vary by the security rating of the area. I was using a B area as my example. In an A area it would be significantly faster and they'd upgrade with less provocation. So as a GM, the solution is to make sure break-ins are in a security area they can handle if you're worried they'll screw up, or on extraterritorial space where the only rules that apply are those of the corp.
eidolon
In a high enough security area in games that I run, it's not necessarily the patrol cars that show up in less than a minute, it's the spirits and drones that LS has patrolling that area constantly. smile.gif
Gyro the Greek Sandwich Pirate
This is one of those questions where I really have to ask about context.

As was mentioned before, the only time the military is going to get involved would be something like a run on a military facility that was botched. The units sent after the runners are not likely to be large blocks of infantry-whatever is fast and ready to go is going to be sent. Regardless of what the Shadowrunners have done, the military is going to want to capture them alive, as exactly what they were doing and who sent them would be key concerns. Given that the runners are almost certainly SINless, capturing them alive and then 'losing' them later is hardly likely to elicit any kind of outcry. If the runners get away, it's likely that the military will work in tandem with whichever national law enforcement agency is it hand to track them down, at which point special forces will drop in and, depending on the state of the intelligence they have, either frag the team or capture them.

It would be highly likely that runner teams that make a habit of doing runs on military bases would have ways to get the hell out of whatever country they're operating in real fast, and somewhere to hide over the border so as to make a military strike a highly touchy issue of diplomacy.

As for the S.W.A.T team, they're going to be deployed whenever the local LEOs want to go arrest a criminal known to be dangerous, and they're almost certainly going to have intel on exactly where this criminal will be, and then drop in when the target's pants are down. They would only have to go toe-to-toe with the criminal if their target got wind that they were coming and for some stupid reason decided to shoot it out instead of running-or their target got wind they were coming, but too late to get out of his building complex, and therefore takes hostages or starts firing on the S.W.A.T., who go and take him out. Otherwise, your runner would have to be involved in a firefight for over twenty minutes for the S.W.A.T team to be called in. So why is your runner:

A.) Barricaded in to a fixed location from which they can't run?

B.) Involved in a firefight long enough for S.W.A.T to mobilize and engage?

Essentially my point is, S.W.A.T only goes toe-to-toe with a runner team if one of the two is walking into a trap, or a runner team got real stupid and got trapped somewhere long enough for S.W.A.T to make it in. In the latter case, the team had better hope that in blasting their way out that they have someplace good to hide-most law enforcement agencies like Lonestar have all the resources they need to bring down a runner team that's operating on LoneStar turf.

My answer to the question is: if unable to immediately capture the shadowrunners, the military sends in special forces and captures or terminates based on the amount of information they need from the runners. For S.W.A.T., if the runners have stuck around long enough for them to mobilize and respond, then it's likely they'll be stuck where they are until S.W.A.T can bring in overwhelming force. If they get away, law enforcement will try and find them, and if they do, S.W.A.T will deploy as discussed earlier: capture if feasible (you get more air time on the trid with a trial) or kill if necessary (Yes, it's highly unlikely we'll be able to stun the cyber-sammy with guns in his arms, built-in armor, respirator and flash+sound damping. Load the Panther.)
Kesslan
QUOTE (toturi)
QUOTE (Kesslan @ Dec 16 2006, 01:52 PM)
QUOTE (toturi @ Dec 15 2006, 09:49 AM)
Like maybe the runners are already in the darkest meanest most cop-unfriendliest even SWAT in Citymasters come out in bodybags Barrens?

Yeah it depends on the invironment, but short of a Z-zone or something the star will still respond. And the star WILL go into the barrens after runners -IF- their considered big enough of a threat. ANd if thats the case they arnt sending just one swat team, but a whole damn army with heavy magical, drone and armored vehicle support.

But you really have to screw up big to have that kinda money sent at you.

Only if you have an out and out war in the Barrens.

QUOTE (p70 New Seattle)
It would take an out-and-out war in another part of the district to draw Lone Star's attention.

Not necessarily. If the runners screw up enough that their faces are plastered all over the trid, and their labled as big time terrorist for blowing up that building downtown, shooting their way out and in the process killing/injuring say... 200 people.

Do you honestly belive, assuming the Star found out where they were located in the Barrens that they wouldnt try to apprehend them? Even if the company took a huge proffit loss in the process you can damn well bet they'd go for it. Otherwise the mayor would turn around and hand the city contract over to a 'company that can do the job' such as Knight Errant.

And if the Star wont at least give it a shot, then the military likely will get called in to do the job instead, and LS still looses the contract to a competitor. Or at the very least gets into some serious hot water with both elected officials and citizens who wonder what the heck their spending their money on if companies like the star cant bring such people to justice.

It's a whole other story if the runners then left the city/country etc or some such, but again then the Star wouldnt be looking at hopping into the Barrens in the first place.
mfb
killing 200 people on one op sounds kinda like war to me.
toturi
QUOTE (Kesslan @ Dec 20 2006, 05:51 PM)
QUOTE (toturi @ Dec 16 2006, 09:02 AM)
QUOTE (Kesslan @ Dec 16 2006, 01:52 PM)
QUOTE (toturi @ Dec 15 2006, 09:49 AM)
Like maybe the runners are already in the darkest meanest most cop-unfriendliest even SWAT in Citymasters come out in bodybags Barrens?

Yeah it depends on the invironment, but short of a Z-zone or something the star will still respond. And the star WILL go into the barrens after runners -IF- their considered big enough of a threat. ANd if thats the case they arnt sending just one swat team, but a whole damn army with heavy magical, drone and armored vehicle support.

But you really have to screw up big to have that kinda money sent at you.

Only if you have an out and out war in the Barrens.

QUOTE (p70 New Seattle)
It would take an out-and-out war in another part of the district to draw Lone Star's attention.

Not necessarily. If the runners screw up enough that their faces are plastered all over the trid, and their labled as big time terrorist for blowing up that building downtown, shooting their way out and in the process killing/injuring say... 200 people.

Do you honestly belive, assuming the Star found out where they were located in the Barrens that they wouldnt try to apprehend them? Even if the company took a huge proffit loss in the process you can damn well bet they'd go for it. Otherwise the mayor would turn around and hand the city contract over to a 'company that can do the job' such as Knight Errant.

And if the Star wont at least give it a shot, then the military likely will get called in to do the job instead, and LS still looses the contract to a competitor. Or at the very least gets into some serious hot water with both elected officials and citizens who wonder what the heck their spending their money on if companies like the star cant bring such people to justice.

It's a whole other story if the runners then left the city/country etc or some such, but again then the Star wouldnt be looking at hopping into the Barrens in the first place.

I do not honestly believe. I know. Because that is what the books say. Anything else is not canon.

If the runners were that screwed up, the Star would either be waiting for them to leave the Barrens or take them down before they got there. Or put up a large enough bounty for the gangs in the Barrens to turn the runners in themselves.
Kesslan
QUOTE (toturi)
I do not honestly believe. I know. Because that is what the books say. Anything else is not canon.

Really? Because I'm pretty sure at least one or two other books specificaly reference the star 'going into the Barrens' with no less than a city master, heavy rigger and magical backup.

I'd have to spend some time hunting around, but I'm pretty dead certain about that little bit being in 'Cannon' material.
Kesslan
Ah, I even have a few references out of New Seattle specifically.

Page 64
'A nosy Matrix Jock is about the only thing that can bring Lone Star or a corpoate strike team into the Barrens'

And thats just one tiny section in the same book. I'm pretty sure I can find other references such as the one I mentioned previously about the star going in with a full Citymaster, given the proper motivation to do so.
mfb
uh, toturi? New Seattle page 110, second paragraph under rating Z.
Kesslan
Thank you MFB, I just found that entry myself.

EDIT: Also of note is the entry elsewhere in the book about Lonestar actually hiring shadowrunners to deal with problems as well. Particulairly those of a Mafia or Yakuza nature, but I wouldnt put it past them to send runners against runners either.
toturi
QUOTE (Kesslan @ Dec 20 2006, 09:15 PM)
QUOTE (toturi @ Dec 20 2006, 08:13 AM)
I do not honestly believe. I know. Because that is what the books say. Anything else is not canon.

Really? Because I'm pretty sure at least one or two other books specificaly reference the star 'going into the Barrens' with no less than a city master, heavy rigger and magical backup.

I'd have to spend some time hunting around, but I'm pretty dead certain about that little bit being in 'Cannon' material.

Never said the Star won't go in. Just that it would take a war for them to do that.

There are a few other canon instances where LS or any corp force will go into the Barrens. Barring any of those instances, any other event that will cause the Star to go into the Barrens is not canon. The noisy Matrix jock is one, there are a few others, but the point being that other than these any other occurance is not canon.
mfb
for pete's sake. since you're not going to read it...
QUOTE (New Seattle page 110 @ 2nd para under "rating Z")
Only if persuing an investigation will the Star enter the Z-Zone...
toturi
QUOTE (mfb)
for pete's sake. since you're not going to read it...
QUOTE (New Seattle page 110 @ 2nd para under "rating Z")
Only if persuing an investigation will the Star enter the Z-Zone...

I read it. That's why -

QUOTE
Barring any of those instances, any other event that will cause the Star to go into the Barrens is not canon
mfb
yes, and you also said "it would take a war for them to do that." in the same post, no less. you're as fickle as an SR FAQ, sirrah!
Kesslan
Indeed, if their going to go after a single decker who's been a little too nosey for his own good, their damn well going go go in after runners who've made far too big and public nuisance of themselves.

For the exact same reasons I've stated above. And cannons supports this. Now, I'm not saying ok you just shoot some one and your mug is posted BANG! star is goign to come after you in the rens.

Not gonna happen. But if you hit the most wanted list, and they find out your holed up there, and your wanted for killing tons of people (See example of 200 killed/injured) you can make a solid bet they will.

By that same source material their allready catching heavy flack about the crime rates in Seattle. So again it comes down to going out of their way to nab the big offenders. Otherwise their competition and others point at it and say 'look! you cant do your jobs! Were gonna get some one who can!'

And thats seriously bad for the bottom line. Far more than having to fork out for injury/death benifits of a few relatively easily replaced employees and equipment. The thing MFB and I are getting at is that you keep turning aroudn and saying 'nuhuh! they wont! Cannon says so!'. Yet cannon DOES say they will. Cannon infact just says persuing an investigation will the Star enter the Z-Zone. They dont even specify that it has to be a huge major investigation, even though I'm pretty darn sure thats exaclty what they mean.

I seriously doubt the star is going to put that much cred on the line if it's just some 'minor issue'. Blowing up a building downtown and caussing mass injury/death is not in any way shape or form 'minor'. Nor is any large (or constnatly sizeable) and very public incident(s) where the same runners are involved constantly. You screw up big enough the Star WILL come down on you like a hammer. And if for some reason they cant do the job expect the UCAS Military to hop in.

Though that would probably only happen after the Star has given up sending even other runners against you as well.

Alot of activities your average runner engages in can easily be classified (Even if not correctly it can easily be construed/percieved as):
Kidnapping
Grand Theft
Assassination
Murder
Terrorism
Industrial Sabotage

Even in some cases: Genocide (like that one fluff bit where the J is a humanis skag trying to get the runners to poison a run of Buzz bliz so all sorts of metas get poisoned and killed. If it hit a big enough distoro some one mgih twell try to bring up those responsible with such charges, i'm not saying they would necessarily stick)

For the most part, police will also try to stick you with every single legal infraction they can figgure out an angle for. It makes them look good even if they dont get them to all stick. Which is why I really cant understand your constant claim that 'cannon does not support this at all!' or 'only all out war would bring this' when cannon quite clearly states that all out war is most certainly not needed.

Also the very line you refer to is specific to the Pullyup region of the Barrens, not the Barrens as a whole. (Though it is more or less a general rule, when the info on E and Z zones is taken into account).

I mean it's not like we are trying to claim that any and every act a runner engages in will have the Star comming in after them guns blazing. Only the really seriously mega screwups/frame jobs etc that hit big time publicity.
Kyoto Kid
...this post is so tempting, however any comments made would give away way too many spoilers for the campaign I will be running.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Kesslan)
Do you honestly belive, assuming the Star found out where they were located in the Barrens that they wouldnt try to apprehend them? Even if the company took a huge proffit loss in the process you can damn well bet they'd go for it.

I disagree. It's generally cheaper to take a bum and surgically alter him or her to match the picture that hit the trid, then stage a shootout somewhere safe and either parade the body or set up a kangaroo court for a swift execution.

~J
mfb
you're obviously not using the M&M surgery rules!
SL James
Burn!
PBTHHHHT
If they want to take out a few perps located in a Z-zone, they can also hire some independent contractors to take out the individuals. Cheap (there are some slags who may do it for the fun of it). Saying the Star will not go into a zone is a bit too much, I can see them easily going in when it warrants for such as an incursion such as a high profile hostage has been found in the area and if some group is becoming too much of hassle using the Z-zone as a staging ground to hit the rest of the city. It's a nice piece of publicity to the citizens that Lonestar will go in to the bad areas to rescue citizens (though only if you're important...).

I see the Star having lots of assets in terms of undercover agents and informants in the Z-zone. They will probably have a taskforce for gangs and the Z-zone area just to keep tabs of what's going just in case they need to head in, who are the power players that can cause problems to the rest of the region and also to develop intelligence assets. They are not paid enough to patrol the region, but that does not mean they won't go in there as a show of force and to head off problems when needed.

Their job is to keep the tax paying citizens safe and one aspect would be to head off some of the problems by having some attention paid on the festering, crime-ridden, gang-infested Z-zones.
Austere Emancipator
If LS, or any organization with equal or greater resources, happens to know the location of a "dead or alive" type criminal in a Z-zone, taking him out would be pretty darn cheap. A check-up to make sure he's there through magic and drones + 2 M-GM Outlaw Block Is <= 50,000 nuyen.gif. That's a bargain even if you injure a few bystanders. Zero risk to any personnel involved is a nice bonus.

If you're never sure where the target is, that's more problematic. Even if the safehouse is in the basement of a nunnery or whatever, they can just wait until the target steps outside.
nezumi
It does occur to me that if LS is going to go after someone in the barrens, the best method would be to either get 'independent contractors' (as has been mentioned), or pay the local gangs for passage. After all, Lone Star doesn't want to fight the gangs, they just want to get somewhere. The gangs don't want Lone Star around, but they do want cash and recognition, both of which Lone Star can provide. Of course, LS would keep it on the low-down, but a few dozen AKs or medkits 'fall off a truck' for the local trog gang, sure they'll step back and let the trucks roll by.
fistandantilus4.0
I see the Star coming in to teh Barrens in full force. LS SB talks about them having panzers available, and then there's the City Masters. Everything that talks about them coming in to the z-zones say they come loaded for bear when they do come in. They don't want to let the gangers think their afraid of them after all. They have to let them know who's "really in charge."
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