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Kesslan
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
I strongly dislike GMs who go out of their way to kill off characters..

Had one once in a D&D group, who tried to Kill my character off numeruos times, but she (the character) somehow managed to survive be it through, "heads up" playing. luck of the dice rolls, or or party intervention. Eventually he got so frustrated that he couldn't beat the character (who was only 6th or 7 the level - the highest level ever attained in any of his scenarios) he eventually didn't invite me back.

I agree, if the PC digs his or her own grave by doing something totally inane, then that's life (or death I guess).

Never had a really "unruly" group, fortunately. Did have to deal with a number munchkins on occasion, but when that happens I adjust threat level accordingly.

Yeah I had a similar issue with one GM on a rifts MUSH. He'd constantly go out of this way to destroy characters plans, kill them etc.

In one instance for example I had created this character who's very specialization was infiltration, for the sake of theft and so on. Now when I created the character one of the thigns explicitly worked out was what fake IDs he had, what stolen uniforms etc. This is something that character type is specifically stated as starting with.

Also among the Fake IDs is one or two -REAL- IDs. Or rather, fakes so good they were infact made by some one with full access to the records. So that it's litterally impossible to tell that the ID is a fake. On a whim, even though I expected it to never come into much if any use at all I took one for the CS Army. Had it list me as an intel agent, had genuine uniforms to match, and anything else I"d need to make a rock solid impersonation of a CS Intel officer right down to service history, current assignment and so on.

So then this one GM decides to kick off this event where the CS invades the area the game was set in. They steam roll everyone and basically we start up a resistance movement. It was around this point that I remembered... damn! I have all this stuff.. Sweet! I can infiltrate em and at least get to poke about their camp abit, find out some plans, maybe steal some supplies etc before my cover gets blown etc.

But instead of that happening he just decided some random NPC would say that my character didnt 'smell right' and promptly had the entire military camp open fire on me. While I'm in the middle of the camp to boot. Yes.. he had over 100 soldiers open fire, at once. On me. And I was a level 4 character.

I still managed due to some quick thinking and certain special abilities to escape alive, if barely so.

He also routinely did things like this to the point where people either actually left, or others such as myself simply started refusing to ever participate or even acknowledge anything he did at all as a GM for that MUSH.

I mean stuff like that is NOT the right way to GM. Anyone who does stuff like that, or purposely tries to kill a PC for no real reason is a horrible GM. It's one thing if you've actually done something to -deserve- that level of retaliation. Totally another if the GM is doing it out of spite.

I mean the odd tough encounter, mugging what ever. Is fine. I've never minded that at all. I'm totally cool with characters being maimed and even killed in just some odd random instance of violence so long as it really is more or less just somethign the GM threw in for flavour, rather than some strange desire for revenge of punishment against the players for god knows what reason.

Munchkin characters can be abit annoying but their actually pretty easy to deal with. Ruleslawers just get abit annoying but I easily circumvent that by stating flat out when I start a game that I go more for story than 'rule of law' and that I can and will use house rules. Usually I have the HRs written up ahead of time but if it's a game like SR4 I might do one up on the spot simply becuase it's so new to me that I've simply never run into an area where X situation ever came up or what ever. I do however keep an open mind and am allways open to discussing an HR with players before implementing it since I prefer player feedback from things like this.

On the subject of being 'picked on' by a GM. If it's small stuff that wont really horribly affect anything other than my characters dignity and some times give him some bruises, broken bones what ever. Thats cool. Adversity builds character. I supose in the end, I only really hate it when a GM goes out of their way to either railroad you or kill you.
Kyoto Kid
...this group was one which had "rotating" GMs.

When this person played in other campaigns he had to the the center of attention all the time. Talk about Munchkin, he was the epitome of the "Power Gamer." All of his characters had to be better than everyone else in the party. This may have contributed to his spite for me, for in one scenario, I had a character who saved the party's collective butts (including his) in the climactic scene of the campaign. What really frosted him I think was the fact my character was no where near as overpowered as his was. She just did what she had to and didn't beat her chest afterwards saying "I am so great, look at me".

Needless to say when he booted me out of the group I had yet to run a session.

The funny thing is I would not have retaliated against him but just not let him be the focal point. I would have made sure that everyone else had fun.
Thane36425
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
...this group was one which had "rotating" GMs.

When this person played in other campaigns he had to the the center of attention all the time. Talk about Munchkin, he was the epitome of the "Power Gamer." All of his characters had to be better than everyone else in the party. This may have contributed to his spite for me, for in one scenario, I had a character who saved the party's collective butts (including his) in the climactic scene of the campaign. What really frosted him I think was the fact my character was no where near as overpowered as his was. She just did what she had to and didn't beat her chest afterwards saying "I am so great, look at me".

Needless to say when he booted me out of the group I had yet to run a session.

The funny thing is I would not have retaliated against him but just not let him be the focal point. I would have made sure that everyone else had fun.

I've had players like that too. They are the ones who have the character that does everything: fighting, magic, negotiating, everything. That group I mentioned to, the really bad one, everyone was like that and they spent most of their time arguing and fighting.

Ideally the group should have a leader who makes the big decisions, with input from the others, but delegates to the team specialists. Say the leader is a mage. They can handle the magic end, obviously, coordinate fights and set the general plan for the team. Other members add their 2 cents based on their expertize. Need to get in a building, that's where the infiltrator shines. The hacker can monkey with the building systems and the rigger mans the get away vehicle and monitors the perimeter drones. The sammie provides cover and hits hard and fast when needed.

If you get a good leader, one the team trusts, not just the loudest person who forces themself into the job, games can go really.
Kyoto Kid
...in the aforementioned scenario, the other players actually looked to my character (who was a ranger/dune sniper [desert equivalent of a deepwoods sniper]) as the leader. She was pretty much the de-facto tactician for the party and definitely was receptive to input of those form other fields of expertise (including the overbearing character).
nezumi
KK, that is a tremendous amount of background work, I am impressed. I've found it's easier to make it up, but somehow I imagine having a stack of documents as large as an unabridged dictionary available for you to look up what's happening when where probably intimidated your players into realizing this was a bit more of a dynamic environment than they're used to.

The toughest part for me has always been involving the PCs in what's going on. Sure, you can have 600 pages of background, but if they don't care for the NPCs and don't feel like they really know the cards up their sleeves, it's almost irrelevant.
Kyoto Kid
...actually, It is all on my notebook PC. I just used the physical representation to quantify the amount of background I put into a campaign, especially one a big as Rhapsody. Somehow quoting the digital file size doesn't carry as much punch.

The cool thing about having it all in digital form is that I can have several files open at the time and just toggle between them without the players knowing what is going on.

QUOTE (nezumi)
The toughest part for me has always been involving the PCs in what's going on. Sure, you can have 600 pages of background, but if they don't care for the NPCs and don't feel like they really know the cards up their sleeves, it's almost irrelevant.


Yeah that is always a danger, as well as when the players make a leap of logic or take a tangent that bypasses part of what you have written. That is when I let the scene they do not get involved in continue to play itself out for events will still occur whether the players are there or not. Yes, it is a lot to keep account of (I have dealt with up to four simultaneous plot tracks at one time), but when something appears to happen randomly in the PCs' eyes, it is actually still is based on their action or inaction.

...the old "when a butterfly in the Amazon beats its wings, it rains in New York the next day " gig.
Wounded Ronin
I actually refrain from writing too much NPC backstory. Maybe I've been unlucky, but in my personal experience, I've seen games turn boring more than they've turned awesome when the GM gets too into his or her own backstory. The way I see it the best approach is to go light on the background and big on the humor.
nezumi
The question really is what do the players want. Some players just want to go out and kill people. I remember my first time running the other game, when the party killed off some bounty hunters and were amazed that these fellows had names (as opposed to 'Mook1' and 'Mook2').

If your players don't want character interactions, deep NPC backstories are redundant at best. Even if they do want character interaction, NPC backstories are only as valuable as the PC is involved with the NPC in question. That's why in my one game I spent 6 months distracting the player with action while building up relationships before relationships became a primary plot driver. After 6 months, she knew the NPCs and cared about them. I didn't have to write backstory for them because she had written backstories herself after years of in-game interaction.

Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (nezumi)
That's why in my one game I spent 6 months distracting the player with action while building up relationships before relationships became a primary plot driver. After 6 months, she knew the NPCs and cared about them. I didn't have to write backstory for them because she had written backstories herself after years of in-game interaction.

I'm impressed. Your GM-fu is strong. I don't think I'd personally even stick to one player character for 6 months without getting bored of the character.
nezumi
Different players, different strokes. And if I didn't mention it already, I was married to the player. I'd have to ask her why she got so deeply involved with a story that for two weeks involved almost no combat and nothing but plot hooks and character interactions. Right now I just chalk it up to her being a girl *shrug*
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (nezumi)
Different players, different strokes. And if I didn't mention it already, I was married to the player. I'd have to ask her why she got so deeply involved with a story that for two weeks involved almost no combat and nothing but plot hooks and character interactions. Right now I just chalk it up to her being a girl *shrug*

It seems that female role players are really really different from male ones, aren't they? I think that explains why I rarely ever see female gamers. They probably dislike my GMing style.
emo samurai
I would like that style! Except there would have to be killing and shit, so maybe i don't like that style.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (emo samurai)
I would like that style! Except there would have to be killing and shit, so maybe i don't like that style.

Fangirl would probably like that style. You should GM a game like that for her. Meanwhile, your male players can get frustrated and start melee combatting each other out of boredom.
Thane36425
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
QUOTE (emo samurai @ Jan 7 2007, 08:49 PM)
I would like that style! Except there would have to be killing and shit, so maybe i don't like that style.

Fangirl would probably like that style. You should GM a game like that for her. Meanwhile, your male players can get frustrated and start melee combatting each other out of boredom.

There might be something to all of this. I've only GMed for male players, never even seen a female one around here. None of them really cared about relationships and such, though they did get to like certain NPCs. Some enjoyed the negotiations because it was sort of a competition, and few did not like the combat or sneaking around aspect.

They did like a little theatrics when it was done well. The best example of that that comes to mind was D&D adventure when the party was stuck in a an inn during a raging snow storm, all the action took place in and around it. I used candles for lighting and had this environment sounds tape of a blizzard playing in the background, changing the volume now and then simulating the changing of the storm. We really got into that one.
nezumi
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
QUOTE (nezumi @ Jan 7 2007, 07:39 PM)
Different players, different strokes.  And if I didn't mention it already, I was married to the player.  I'd have to ask her why she got so deeply involved with a story that for two weeks involved almost no combat and nothing but plot hooks and character interactions.  Right now I just chalk it up to her being a girl *shrug*

It seems that female role players are really really different from male ones, aren't they? I think that explains why I rarely ever see female gamers. They probably dislike my GMing style.

I really don't have the experience to say. I've only gamed with a handful of girls, only two who'd I consider excellent roleplayers. I've played with some who were really into the relationships and some who were far more passive to it, some who hated having to know rules to play, some who were quite comfortable with them. The only thing I can say for certain is that games, for the most part, are aimed far more at males than females, so more males are naturally attracted to it. I haven't seen any who were really into just killing people and taking their stuff (although when I played Firefly, the Jayne character was played by a woman), but since I'm not hugely into combat roleplaying either, I don't tend to play in the groups where those girls would gravitate towards.

*shrug* I heard someone once say that girls are just people too with their own varied interests. I don't know if that's true, but it seems a good model to run by.
Kyoto Kid
...for a good portion of my Rhapsody run I had two women players in the group. the rest of the players got used to the style and actually enjoy the extra detail.

Personally, I enjoy writing the story behind the scenes. With my telly having died a couple of years ago (not that I miss it - 500 channels of crap, reality shows, and adverts anyway) I find I have more time to work on creative pursuits.

Also, the PCs usually do a good job on their own of getting themselves into trouble so the conflict scenes almost write themselves.
Fortune
I've gamed with a fair number of females, and in general, at least in my experience, they usually tend to be much more bloodthirsty and vindictive than their male gamer counterparts.
Sahandrian
I've had the good fortune of having a number of female players in my groups. One of them even introduced me to Shadowrun in the first place. Let's see...

The one who introduced me to the game (and my first GM) was about 6 years ago when I was last in a game with her, so I don't know her style that well, but I think she was mostly interested in the social activity part of it - that it's a game to play with her friends.

Another enjoys the role-play aspect more than anything else, and hates having to learn rules. She tolerates combat, and likes stealth, but likes social scenes most of all, and wants as little dice-rolling as possible in any case.

Then there's one who likes the combat, social, and stealth parts equally, and doesn't mind rolling dice for everything, but can never seem to get a decent grasp on the rules, so you need to tell her what she's rolling each time.

Then one I haven't had much of a chance to play SR with, but in our "other game" campaigns, she can mix-max and hack & slash as much as any guy does.

And then my girlfriend, who learns the rules and tends to enjoy combat and stealth over most other parts of the game (she tends to be very competetive), but still gets more into the RP than most of the male players (with one notable exception, but he's a loony).

Overall, I've seen that female gamers prefer roleplay over rollplay, and don't like having to learn and use a lot of rules.

And if it seems like I must have an all-girl group or something, it's that I have a group I play in at home (I've commented on their insanity here a few times), a group (that can draw on the campus gaming club) at college, and an online group which has seen better days, but at one point had about 20 active members.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (nezumi)

*shrug* I heard someone once say that girls are just people too with their own varied interests. I don't know if that's true, but it seems a good model to run by.

I used to believe that. But then, a kindly 40 year old woman from Georgia with small breasts told me that that wasn't true.
hyzmarca
While there are some structural differences between the male and female brains such that females tend more towards socialization while males tend more towards physical activity, this does not stop girls from liking violence nor does it stop men from forming byzantine social networks. It is a spectrum, really.
Wounded Ronin
I just posted the following on another forum.

http://www.snipersparadise.com/history/pavlichenk.htm

Hmm, the ultimate woman. Not only is she smart and deadly, but she was also hot. And she studied history, just like me.

QUOTE

In June of 1941, the Germans launched Operation Barbarosa attacking the Soviet Union. Lyudmila was studying at the Kiev University. She was 24-years-old and majoring in history. Many of the Russian students rushed to join the military. Lyuda was an exceptionally beautiful young girl. When she went to the recruiter, she requested to join the infantry and carry a rifle. The recruiter laughed at her. She pulled out a marksmanship certificate to prove her worth. He wanted her to become nurse. Being strong willed, she refused. She signed up with the 25th Infantry Division. She became one of the two-thousand women Soviet snipers of which only about 500 survived the war. As a sniper, she made her first two kills near Belyayevka.




Now I'm going to go off to obsess over the bolt-action goodness of Mosin-Nagent rifles. Bolt action rifles inherently have a lot of panache.
Kyoto Kid
...very fascinating read.

Thanks for posting the link.
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