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The Jopp
Making full VR & Hotsim worth it. With the current FAQ Technomancers and VR hackers are obsolete by the Wired/Synaptic/Adept improved reflexes AR hackers.

Since you work at the speed of thought actions that would normally take longer in AR are merely a flicker of the mind and then it is done while the meat hacker is still tapping keys.

Actions that takes a specific amount of time have the following conversion
Free Action =1 Extra free action in VR/Hotsim
Simple Action = Free Action
1 IP = Simple Action
1 Combat Turn =1 IP
1 Minute =1 Combat Turn
1 Hour = 1 Minute
1 Day = 1 Hour
1 Week =1 Day

This way ALL hacking done in VR is faster and not only probing the target but everything you do. In order for VR hackers not to become the speedsters of combat we limit attack programs to 1 attack per IP (having 4 IP’s and 8 attack actions in VR is just silly).
psykotisk_overlegen
On the other hand you've broken some of the streamlining of the system, assigning two "speeds" if you will to every hacker action. Not to mention the hassle it would be to keep track of AR and VR hackers in the same combat.
Also, since IC alway operates at machine speeds they'll be miles ahead of any decker not doing hot sim. Where in this system does cold sim fit in btw.
Blade
AR users can use DNI too... no need for a keyboard.
Serbitar
Good work. But I would make AR slower instead of VR faster.

Maybe ill integrate that in my SGM.

@Blade: Then the AR user is using a mental keyboard. But he is still not "thinking" his commands per se, but using a virtual GUI.

The Jopp
Yes, program working in VR would be faster – as they should be.

Cold SIM and Hot SIM are the same speed, the difference between them is the +2D6 and +1IP. Both are a type of VR so whan I say VR I mean both Hotsim and VR.

In matrix combat the only difference would be loading programs and non-combat actions since any kind of attack program still takes a complex action. Let’s just say that making a matrix attack is more difficult than calling it “game balance”.

The reason for “destroying” the streamlining is because it is TOO streamlined. The point with AR and Hotsim being at the speed of thought is that it should be faster than what a human body can perform.

There are hardly any matrix actions by the RAW that is “faster” in VR than AR. Regular matrix actions simply has one speed – and that speed should always be faster in VR.

Lantzer
Do you really think hackers can modify programs, adjust code, and fiddle around with system settings faster than an augmented human body can perform?

"The Speed of Thought" ain't that impressive, at least from my experience.

It's the same brain as he uses in the meat world - and I doubt if his meat bod is holding him back that much. Maybe to the tune to 2d6 init and 1 IP. Yeah, I'll give him _that_ much bonus. It might be a little generous, but I also give Mr Twitchy the Street Sam extra speed - you know, the guy with the hardwired reflexes.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Lantzer)
Do you really think hackers can modify programs, adjust code, and fiddle around with system settings faster than an augmented human body can perform?

"The Speed of Thought" ain't that impressive, at least from my experience.

It's the same brain as he uses in the meat world - and I doubt if his meat bod is holding him back that much. Maybe to the tune to 2d6 init and 1 IP. Yeah, I'll give him _that_ much bonus. It might be a little generous, but I also give Mr Twitchy the Street Sam extra speed - you know, the guy with the hardwired reflexes.

I disagree.

The point with ”Speed of thought” is that a command that flashes directly to a device is an instant action while having Twitchy tapping virtual keys in his PAN is slower, even if by a fraction – and that fraction can easily become a huge number in virtual speed.

Not to mention that your eyes in A ned to pick up the information and send it to your brain through your visual nerves – nerves that in VR and Hotsim are DIRECTLY connected to the commlink, bypassing the meaty globes we call eyes.

Besides the actions we talk about here are non-combat actions mostly and that would probably not interest a streetsam overmuch – and he also has the option of going VR and Hotsim if he wants to.

Cybercombat would still be the same and the Streetsam would be equal in speed compared the the Hotsim hacker but the Hacker would be more flexible in loading programs. The streetsam would be on top since he would ignore Black hammer and blackout.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Lantzer)
"The Speed of Thought" ain't that impressive, at least from my experience.

How fast is fast? In order to get the facts about meat VS mind reaction time we would have to go through a few medical books.

For game balance we NEED a solution since hacking in AR is SUPPOSED to be bleeding edge quickness compared to meatspeed.

What’s the point with VR if the meatspeed is faster? For Probing the Target? ONE measly thing in the entire matrix section is worth having VR for?
blakkie
talker.gif ohplease.gif Here's an idea.

Hell, I'll even toss out a totally-from-the-hip piece of wireware.
CODE
Headware          Essence Capacity Availability Cost
Cortex Mainline      1.0      -        12R      20,000 :nuyen:

Cortex Mainline - Adds +1IP and +1 Initiative when running VR, thus allowing Jonny Hotsim to kick AR hoop. Numbers subject to change to whatever you think works for you.


Actual rules screwed with: zero. Now was that so hard? embarrassed.gif
toturi
QUOTE (The Jopp)
QUOTE (Lantzer @ Dec 18 2006, 01:13 PM)
"The Speed of Thought"  ain't that impressive, at least from my experience.

How fast is fast? In order to get the facts about meat VS mind reaction time we would have to go through a few medical books.

For game balance we NEED a solution since hacking in AR is SUPPOSED to be bleeding edge quickness compared to meatspeed.

What’s the point with VR if the meatspeed is faster? For Probing the Target? ONE measly thing in the entire matrix section is worth having VR for?

Why for should Hacking in VR be better than AR? You are assuming since in RL, hacking in VR would presumably be faster than AR, you think that it should be so as well in SR.
The Jopp
QUOTE (toturi)
section is worth having VR for? [/QUOTE]
Why for should Hacking in VR be better than AR? You are assuming since in RL, hacking in VR would presumably be faster than AR, you think that it should be so as well in SR.

Well, my thought is because the INTENT of VR was for it to be faster than using AR. I would assume that any action done mentally is always faster than any flesh action as you don't have to instruct any nerves to do something in another part of the body.
The Jopp
The point is not the amount of IP's one gets and how much more one can FIGHT someone but rather how long things take in AR compared to VR that takes your conciousnesss into the matrix.
Eryk the Red
The real problem here is that VR is cool and a big part of the setting, and when it gets devalued this way, it sort of breaks the setting.

I play a heavily modified version of the rules (because I like to tweak, and sometimes tweaking means rewriting). I was able to solve the AR/VR speed problem very simply in my rules. See, I run combat not as a series of turns but as ticks (like in Exalted 2E). So basically, when you take your turn, you have a speed rating, and your next action is that many ticks later. 5 is normal, IP boosts subtract one per IP from that. So, a Wired 2 guy can take physical actions every three ticks. Physical boosts don't aid with matrix speeds, so AR is always speed 5, cold VR is 4 and hot VR is 3. I like this setup. (Not that I actually recommend anyone else implement it. It took a lot of work to make it fit with the system.)

I don't really fault their ruling, because it fits with the streamlining and unified structure of the system. But I'm glad I found a way to sidestep this problem.
blakkie
QUOTE (The Jopp)
The point is not the amount of IP's one gets and how much more one can FIGHT someone but rather how long things take in AR compared to VR that takes your conciousnesss into the matrix.

Er, by-in-large the programs are doing things, not the people (Techos aside). Which is also why the dice pools are Skill+Program, not Skill+Attribute. The programs running on AR are the same ones running in VR.
blakkie
QUOTE (Eryk the Red)
The real problem here is that VR is cool and a big part of the setting, and when it gets devalued this way, it sort of breaks the setting.

It breaks the setting that people that are juiced up with augments, and make no mistake that someone that has their meat moving at 4 IP is juiced up, make lots of things happen fast?
The Jopp
QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (Eryk the Red @ Dec 18 2006, 09:17 AM)
The real problem here is that VR is cool and a big part of the setting, and when it gets devalued this way, it sort of breaks the setting.

It breaks the setting that people that are juiced up with augments, and make no mistake that someone that has their meat moving at 4 IP is juiced up, make lots of things happen fast?

No, it is that the current FAQ basically makes Technomancers and regular Hackers VR and Hotsim obsolete and redundant.

And I DO find something wrong with that.
BlueRondo
Maybe the simplest thing to do without screwing around with IPs is to increase the +2 dice bonus. To reflect that you're moving at the speed of thought, you could add something like (logic + intuition) / 2. So an average person with 3 logic / 3 intuition gets +3 dice. A genius with maybe 4 int and 6 logic gets +5 dice.
ixombie
QUOTE (The Jopp)

Well, my thought is because the INTENT of VR was for it to be faster than using AR. I would assume that any action done mentally is always faster than any flesh action as you don't have to instruct any nerves to do something in another part of the body.


It was definitely not the developer's intent that hacking in VR would always be faster than AR. That was made pretty clear by the FAQ. Usually you can only guess these things, but along comes a rules clarification that confirms, yes, AR is potentially faster than VR.

Notice that I said potentialy. Getting 4 IP's requires wires 3 or synaptic booster 3. The wires cost 5 essence, if you haven't built your character around upgrading to wires 3, you won't be able to fit them in without ripping out other ware. And synaptic 3 costs a truckload of nuyen.gif. I have never been in a game where someone got either one, because they are so expensive in money/essence that there's usually something more efficient to spend your cash on.

Here's why the AR vs. VR thing is balanced: A hacker with trodes spends 0 nuyen.gif and 0 essence on internal cyber and can run the matrix in full VR with 3 IP's and with a +2 bonus to all actions from hot sim. A hacker with reflex enhancement is paying a large chunk of essence and money to be worse than the hot sim VR guy, except for not being killed by black IC. And when/if he gets level 3 reflex enhancement, he's paying an even bigger chunk of money/essence.

Being able to run in full VR is basically FREE. Why exactly does it need to be omgwtfub3rz now?
Eryk the Red
The simple reason, ixombie, is to maintain the integrity of the setting. VR is supposed to be faster and generally preferable when doing tasks that require high performance, like hacking. At this point, I'm not actually concerned with the intentions of the developers. My game and our understanding of the setting as pertains the matrix stops working if AR is allowed to outperform VR.

So screw all the rest. VR is where it's at, and that's how I want it to stay.

Besides, the matrix in AR is boring. You don't want your hackers spending all their time in AR, do you?
blakkie
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Dec 18 2006, 09:34 AM)
No, it is that the current FAQ basically makes Technomancers and regular Hackers VR and Hotsim obsolete and redundant.

WTF? Did you even bother to click on that link? Technos (after they earn their first 13 karma) outstrip AR and have some interesting differences to boot, and hackers are just waiting on offical word in the supplement books. Unless you just go ahead and use that Cortex Mainline (or Optical Cerebreal Backbone or Cybernetic Telencephalon Interchange or whatever name you want to give it) cyberware implant.
QUOTE
And I DO find something wrong with that.

Oh wait, so you do realize that you are full of bullshit in that first sentence? rotfl.gif wink.gif
Serbitar
QUOTE (blakkie @ Dec 18 2006, 09:03 AM)
talker.gif  ohplease.gif Here's an idea.

Hell, I'll even toss out a totally-from-the-hip piece of wireware.
CODE
Headware          Essence Capacity Availability Cost
Cortex Mainline      1.0      -        12R      20,000 :nuyen:

Cortex Mainline - Adds +1IP and +1 Initiative when running VR, thus allowing Jonny Hotsim to kick AR hoop. Numbers subject to change to whatever you think works for you.


Actual rules screwed with: zero.  Now was that so hard?  embarrassed.gif

1. this will come only in unwired
2. it is not fixing the problem, which is AR being comparable to or better than VR

I want VR >> AR by design. Because I want it, because the fluff tells us that it is so, and most of all because!
X-Kalibur
QUOTE
It was definitely not the developer's intent that hacking in VR would always be faster than AR. That was made pretty clear by the FAQ. Usually you can only guess these things, but along comes a rules clarification that confirms, yes, AR is potentially faster than VR.


Sometimes I wonder about that actually, they state for example, in the FAQ that Reaction Enchancers do not stack with Wired Reflexes... when the rules for them specifically state that they DO stack with them. In fact, how that even got into the FAQ, and was then answered willy nilly, is beyond me. I'd honestly like to know who answered some parts of that FAQ, because I don't think it was the people who wrote the perspective sections that were in question.
Charon
I just stated for my game that you could only use one Matrix related action per round in AR (With -2 to dice to non-matrix task, like a mage in astral perception doing non-magic test).

So if you have more than one IP, use them for shooting, running or whatever.

That houserule kept VR as being much better than AR for hacking purposes and sometime encourage a hacker to go VR in the middle of a fight, which is pretty much the same tactical dilemna as a mage deciding to go on astral projection during a fight.
Konsaki
I would have to agree with Charon's assesment of the way it 'should' be. Even with an internal commlink, you dont really 'feel' the data as it comes back to you, you see it in your AR vision and that takes time to comprehend and you only have 3 seconds in a turn.
I would also say that even though Technomancers can 'feel' the matrix, even in AR, they are splitting their mind by performing tasks in the matrix and physical world at the same time, so cant fully concentrate on the digital realm. This is if a TM had some sort of IP enhancer: spell, ware or drugs.
blakkie
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Dec 18 2006, 11:10 AM)
1. this will come only in unwired

Hey, it's right here RIGHT NOW! Enjoy. smile.gif Or wait a month or two till Augmented, I'd put it at even odds that it'll be in there rather than Unwired.
QUOTE
2. it is not fixing the problem, which is AR being comparable to or better than VR

Hrmmm, it makes it so that hot sim is cheaper (a crapload with my particular take on the implant, and certainly with Technomancers) to reach 4 IP than with AR and it gives +2 dice to every Matrix pool you roll. It's like Santa came early for you guys and this year he decided to stuff your stocking full of Stupid Pills. Ho! Ho! Ho! dead.gif Maybe there isn't as huge of a gap as you personally want to see in performance, but that doesn't mean the gap doesn't exist with the edge to hot sim VR.
Konsaki
Immunity to black IC and being able to act in the physical and digital worlds at the same time > +2 dicepool
Fortune
QUOTE (Charon)
With -2 to dice to non-matrix task, like a mage in astral perception doing non-magic test

So, does that -2 apply to everyone whenever they are using AR?
blakkie
QUOTE (Konsaki @ Dec 18 2006, 01:31 PM)
Immunity to black IC and being able to act in the physical and digital worlds at the same time > +2 dicepool

Sure, if you want to play it safe. But if you want the hackzer with the mostest (i.e. top performance), well then hike up yer skirt and get it on VR-style. Meaning either is a viable option with there being trade-offs.....which in my option means a good game.
Charon
QUOTE (Fortune @ Dec 18 2006, 02:33 PM)
QUOTE (Charon @ Dec 19 2006, 06:17 AM)
With -2 to dice to non-matrix task, like a mage in astral perception doing non-magic test

So, does that -2 apply to everyone whenever they are using AR?

I apply it if they have actually performed a matrix related action during the round and then want to perform a physical action, not just for perceiving AR. And I require that if you are going to mix Hacking and physical skill, that you use Matrix it in the first IP.

It's a bit annoying and I could see how it would be restrictive so I've thought of kicking out the -2 and letting the PC use his Matrix IP whenever he wants. But so far the Hacker hasn't complained and no situation cropped up where he would have wanted to start hacking only in his second IP. Meanwhile I just like the idea that a Hacker be distracted by his hacking while shooting at someone.

The idea is simply that hacking in VR is slower and takes most of the 3 seconds and distracts you even as you complete other activities.

So actually it's not exactly like a mage using astral perception. Just an analogy.

Anyway, it has worked well so far and enhanced certain tense combat scenes. Though admitedly, the typical use of the second physical IP when the Hacker hacks in VR during combat is full defense! That or sprinting to a safe place where he will be able to lie down and go VR for just a few seconds.
Fortune
QUOTE (Charon)
I apply it if they have actually performed a matrix related action during the round and then want to perform a physical action, not just for perceiving AR. And I require that if you are going to mix Hacking and physical skill, that you use Matrix it in the first IP.

Fair enough.
Serbitar
QUOTE (blakkie @ Dec 18 2006, 02:25 PM)
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Dec 18 2006, 11:10 AM)
1. this will come only in unwired

Hey, it's right here RIGHT NOW! Enjoy. smile.gif Or wait a month or two till Augmented, I'd put it at even odds that it'll be in there rather than Unwired.
QUOTE
2. it is not fixing the problem, which is AR being comparable to or better than VR

Hrmmm, it makes it so that hot sim is cheaper (a crapload with my particular take on the implant, and certainly with Technomancers) to reach 4 IP than with AR and it gives +2 dice to every Matrix pool you roll. It's like Santa came early for you guys and this year he decided to stuff your stocking full of Stupid Pills. Ho! Ho! Ho! dead.gif Maybe there isn't as huge of a gap as you personally want to see in performance, but that doesn't mean the gap doesn't exist with the edge to hot sim VR.

Guess what. Its been there 6 month ago. And it will not be in agumented (rumors), which will not be here in 2 month.

And I have to make myself more clear: I want VR to be a shitload faster than AR. Not just better. I want "speed of thought" to mean something.
Garrowolf
Actually I question the idea of the speed of thought. You might be able to go through menus and select things quickly but at some point or some of the time you going to be spinning your mental wheels. I mean people normally think several things and change their minds or act indecisive for breif moments all the time. IF every thought that you had was enacted at that speed you are likely to do a lot of stupid things instead of thinking things out.

Calmly being able to decide between two or three buttons is very different from having your thoughts all activated. It could produce some amusing consequences but what I was thinking was what if you limited nonspecialists because of this. Basically have the difference between a normal person using VR and a hacker or technomancer could be a quality that allows for calm thought and control in VR. Others would waste most of their extra actions or just not be able to make use of their extra actions at all.
Serbitar
Easy example:

AR (with DNI): You mentally say the access ID of node X.
VR: You think "node X" (actually you dont even have to think the X, because you know what you want, you just think it) and the interface automatically knows what node you mean, because you know it when you think it.

In VR you dont have to think about any parameters, because you already know what you want. Its up to the computer to extract the neccessary parameters out of your intentional thought which you provide it. In AR you have to do the parameter extraction and thinking about that yourself.
knasser

I don't have anything to say that hasn't been said before on this subject, but I'm casting in another vote for VR must be much better than AR. I like the effect that has on hacking in the game. Favoured solution here - you only get 1 IP in AR. Simple and same for everyone so hardly unfair.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (knasser)
I don't have anything to say that hasn't been said before on this subject, but I'm casting in another vote for VR must be much better than AR. I like the effect that has on hacking in the game. Favoured solution here - you only get 1 IP in AR. Simple and same for everyone so hardly unfair.

I'm going to concur with that, sets it up nice and simple, AR gets 1 pass, cold sim 2, hot sim 3, overclocked Technos 4.

What someone with wires can do, is take that AR pass during regular combat with no penalties associated, allowing them to fill multiple roles in a firefight (i.e. sending tactical info whilst also firing from cover)
ShadowDragon
I just houserule that AR can only be accessed for 1 IP per round. If the character has extra IPs, they can spend those IPs doing other stuff outside the matrix. Acting as fast or faster than the "speed of thought" in the matrix by clicking buttons is just silly.
Jack Kain
I actually found a physicals form where they disscuss the speed of thought.
http://lofi.forum.physorg.com/What-is-a-th...ought_2464.html
(doesn't show up well in firefox)
Lord Ben
Do you guys have that big of a problem with the team hacker partaking in combat, dodging, running down a hall, etc and still performing hacking duties?

He'll go into VR when he's staking out a place because the +2 is nice, and he'll use AR while crouching behind a crate while in a gun battle so he can still jump out of the way of grenades.

Seriously, the designers made an intentional decision to make hackers a more integral part of the team and you guys want to houserule them into a one role character...
Konsaki
I have a serious problem with them creating a character archtype, Technomancers, then boosting everything around that makes them less valuable. I also have a problem with the fact that now mages and adepts can be superhackers at faster speeds than VR, mages expecally, for just using a little magical mojo.

Enhanced Reflexes F4 (Yes you have a -2 Dicepool, but get to throw down more dice total) = better than hackers in VR
And this is at chargen where you CANT get IP4 any other way, in meat or VR
Faelan
Well personally I don't for the most part have a problem with the way things are now. I prefer my hackers operate in AR. The second they say they are going to VR I have them make the occasional roll as he does his thing sits on his ass, and generally gets bored while the rest of the group continues with the story. This was my beef with the last three versions of Shadowrun, Cyberpunk, Cyberpunk 2020, and just about every other game which uses a VR model. Thats why when I ran those games the hacker was almost always an NPC or was after a couple of sessions. To expect a GM to devote a major amount of time to something that really only one character is involved with is just not fair to the other players (yea you could blue book it, icq, it before the game, but when you are a pressed for time GM like me it does not work). AR is the way to go, essentially in my mind a hacking HUD. This allows the hacker to play with everyone else without creating a major disruption.
Lord Ben
You can postulate all the crazy adept/mage hackers with a 4th pass all you want but it boils down to not really being worth it.

Hacking on the fly gives your opponent an opposed roll every time you roll, so the +2 is VERY helpful in that situation, much more than the 4th IP.
blakkie
QUOTE (Serbitar @ Dec 18 2006, 02:18 PM)
Easy example:

AR (with DNI): You mentally say the access ID of node X.
VR: You think "node X" (actually you dont even have to think the X, because you know what you want, you just think it) and the interface automatically knows what node you mean, because you know it when you think it.

Easy example indeed.....of you not having a clue. VR via just a DJ or a wire wig basically is DNI. VR just has a better data feed, simsense, for better immersion (ergo the +2 dice).

Holy cow! Do you realise what that means? Well probably not, so I'll spoon feed it to you. The rules as they are (and as they where before the FAQ for anyone that bothered to read and heed them) are actually consistant with the technology as described. eek.gif

Of course you are certainly free to muck about changing rules here and there. It wouldn't be surprising that optional tweaks like that get popped into say Unwired. But doing so in truth ends up with the rules making less technological sense.
Konsaki
Get hostile much, blakkie?
Fortune
Well, I agree with blakkie's interpretation.
laughingowl
The only real change I see from 'canon'.

Is it get rid of the penalties for doing things with meat body while in VR.

HOWEVER, I treat the meat body as a seperate node you are in. (thus you can only act in a node in a IP).

So AR you get lots of IPs that you can do anything with, but no 'bonus' to hacking.

VR you can get 'cheap' matrix IPs (that meat body cant keep up with), bonuses to hacking, and vunerability to Black IC.


IPs gained from VR can ONLY be used in the matrix.

IPs gained from Meat could be used for either.

So Overclocked TM, Running hot.

Gets 4 ip, only one of which could e a physical action (no penalty)

IF he got hit with Increase Reflex adding an IP.

He would still only have 4ip (the highest), but he could use up to 2 of them for 'meat body' actions.

To me this makes VR equal to AR. Perhaps not 'better' but atleat equal.

VR gives you an edge in Matrix, is cheaper (to get more IP), but has health risks.

Meat body enhancements and AR, dont give you bonuses in Matrix, but allow you the flexibilty of meat or matrix IPs, protect you from Black IC, etc.


I can accept that AR has the potential to be almost as good (and as fast) as VR, I do find VR a little under appreciated as is.

Cut out the 'meat body' limits of VR. (Heck the VR hacker could be rigging a drone and VR hacking. 3 IPs hack and 1IP move drone. In effect we are just treating the meat body as a drone you are always jumped into)
The Jopp
QUOTE (blakkie @ Dec 19 2006, 04:08 AM)
VR via just a DJ or a wire wig basically is DNI. VR just has a better data feed, simsense, for better immersion (ergo the +2 dice).


Please keep the two two rules separate.

AR: Meatspeed (Debatable what speed that is)
VR: +1 IP (Speed of thought)
HOTSIM: +2IP +2D6 (Speed of thought on Speed)

You ONLY get +2D6 in HOTSIM not regular VR.

And Hotsim is supposed to be as addictive as BTL - another drawback.

THe point with the FAQ they have given is that VR and AR has become obsolete when it is a HUGE part of the actual gameworld and that is wrong.

Sure, for those who get orgasms thinking of streetsams with 3IP's and hacking skills it's good but there is something wrong when the whole setting of the matrix becomes skewered by the "new" rules.

Not to mention who would ever play a hacker when cybered or adept can become SO much better in the matrix.

It's broken.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Lord Ben @ Dec 19 2006, 12:00 AM)

Seriously, the designers made an intentional decision to make hackers a more integral part of the team and you guys want to houserule them into a one role character...

No I dont.

The move of making meatspeeds equally fast to VR and Hotsim has the drawback of making the dangers of the matrix equal to zero.

My main gripe is that "Actions" you perform in the matrix arent faster in VR. There is ONE action in the game that is actually 24 times faster in VR & Hotsim than AR and that is "Probing the target".

Why arent ALL the other actions faster then? If you are 24 times faster when probing the target in VR why arent you faster in gaining information and finding weaknesses when performing OTHER actions?

The IP discussion isn't as important as to why VR simply isn't faster in how much TIME you spend hacking in VR. Tasks that takes hours in AR takes seconds in VR.

For combat, sure use the regular rules but Black IC and Knockout programs will be gone from the market because the AR revolution has come and only the attack program is of any use.
toturi
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Dec 19 2006, 02:23 PM)
For combat, sure use the regular rules but Black IC and Knockout programs will be gone from the market because the AR revolution has come and only the attack program is of any use.

So? That's the way the new (virtual) world works. At least until Unwired.
Kesslan
Hard for me to say which to go for in this. I mean in SR3 VR was king, in SR4 AR has alot of upsides to it. And I think it's really ment to be to a degree -almost- as good.

Besides I still see the average combat hacker going VR for the simpel fact that he's goign to spend alot of startup cash etc on programs, a good comlink, some basic cyber, and gear.

Also given the essence cost as well as the cost and restriction on level 3 boosters, well, your not likely to see many folk comming out of CG with 4 IPs. Not even adepts, which I think are the only ones that even can. Simply because, by the book rules, your average mage/adept will likely due to the BP cost cut magic off at 5.

ANd it costs a whooping 5 power points to get level 3 reflexes for adepts. So even if they take magic 6 that leaves only 1 power point for something else. That really doesnt go far at all. Not to mention in the end that while the idea of an adept hacker can work quite well now (Whcih didnt before under SR3), the adept pays a huge sum of BP for that power.

50 BP min for magic 5, their sole boost, reflexes 3.
THen probably another 10-20 BP minimum for gear just so they can afford some guns, armor, basic equipment, and then the comlink and programs.

A regular hacker on the other hand for 50BP can have alot of programs, gear, and still get 2-3IP on matrix actions without additional cost. They simply have to run VR and be in either hot or cold. I would however expect the standard for hacking to be pushing towards AR interface for one very huge reason. The hacker running under AR is no longer a sitting duck in a firefight.

Under SR3 you allways had to find a place to stash the hacker while they went under. Now in SR4 you might still hit that if they need that extra edge but if the lead is flying hot and heavy they can still keep an eye out in the meatworld to keep their head in one piece while still being useful.

Still, it'll be interesting to see what if any additional differences AR VS Cold/Hot VR will surface with the new hacker book.
Serbitar
QUOTE (blakkie @ Dec 18 2006, 11:08 PM)

Holy cow! Do you realise what that means? Well probably not, so I'll spoon feed it to you.

1st: Please keep it civil
2nd: This is your interpretation. As long as nobody builds a fully functional DNI, and see how effective it interpretas the signal it is getting, my interpretation is as good as any. (Actually I think it id more consistent with the fluff, than yours, but I dont want to argue with you as you only want to troll around).
3rd: You still dont get it. I want VR to be better than AR. Snd faster. I need no reason for that, other that I want it to be that way. You can not argue against it. Just accept it and read other threads.
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