I'm starting a game this Friday and was wondering what others thought about having players use 500bp instead of 400
We also will be using the variant rules of 4+ and exploding 6s(sorry long time Earthdawn player and this way feels more comfortable to me)
Full Version: 500 point games...good or bad?
For a standard campaign that will last 20+ sessions, bad.
For a short scenario, (can be) good.
For a campaign based on a chapter format where you'll play in alternance 3 to 5 group, none of which will play more than 5-6 sessions, good. Though not all groups should be at 500 BP. Variety is a good thing.
For a first campaign, very bad.
For a short scenario, (can be) good.
For a campaign based on a chapter format where you'll play in alternance 3 to 5 group, none of which will play more than 5-6 sessions, good. Though not all groups should be at 500 BP. Variety is a good thing.
For a first campaign, very bad.
| QUOTE |
| We also will be using the variant rules of 4+ and exploding 6s(sorry long time Earthdawn player and this way feels more comfortable to me) |
Bad.
Exploding dice hurt the PCs more than they help them.
500 build points is high-powered campaign level. I disagree that it is bad for campaigns lasting 20+ sessions, as characters will still have plenty to spend their Karma on. However, you need to be aware that using 500 points will create very effective shadowrunners. Even with 400 points, you can make runners who sling dice in the high teens for their primary skill. With 500 points, they will be able to do so without needing to sacrifice in any other areas.
At 500 points, you could even make a halfway-decent technomancer.
So as far as good or bad, I give a qualified good. It is good... if it is your intention to have a high-powered campaign.
At 500 points, you could even make a halfway-decent technomancer.
So as far as good or bad, I give a qualified good. It is good... if it is your intention to have a high-powered campaign.
| QUOTE (Glyph) |
| So as far as good or bad, I give a qualified good. It is good... if it is your intention to have a high-powered campaign. |
Second that. You can build decent adepts and spellslingers and giv e your sammies upgraded cyber like betaware. Or your characters will have a lot of skills (maybe think of removing skill caps at chargen) and high attributes. But I don't think that the characters will be overpowered. I'm building an elven medic at the moment with 450 BP (hello, Ophis
) and he'S far away from being a powergamer's wet dream.
A 500 point game is ok. But tailor your missions around the fact that your players are more powerful. IE you have to run your games as if the SR are well established SR that have been working as a team so far. If you have any newbies in your group this may be a problem.
*Waves the 320 pt flag*
C'mon down to Rookie World! It's cool down here!
C'mon down to Rookie World! It's cool down here!
What do you have to work for or look forward to?
...In SR3 we used the high powered rules from MrJ's LBB. Admittedly it was a short run (Brainscan) and we had a small group of players (3 - 4). Was able to make a kick butt decker/sam (Diamond Ice) who had her own custom deck and programmes (2 mil in resources) and we still barely made it through the module.
I will be using the same rule option for the re-run of my Rhapsody arc as well and do not see much of an issue handling the higher powered characters considering the difficulty level the campaign is set at.
I will be using the same rule option for the re-run of my Rhapsody arc as well and do not see much of an issue handling the higher powered characters considering the difficulty level the campaign is set at.
| QUOTE (ChicagosFinest) |
| What do you have to work for or look forward to? |
An awful lot in SR4, sure you can have maxed out a specialty but even with 500BP you still have plenty of toys to buy. Hell 900BP still seems incomplete if you ask me. plus the money really don't stretch far if your after betaware etc.
I run a campaign bi-weekly, 4-5 hour sessions. We are in our 15th session...the only real change we made was increasing the karma rewards...still started with 400 BP at chargen, but each session, regardless of activity, I give out a base of 10 karma...then I add onto that the "normal" karma rewards for runs and stuff.
I would consider this a higher-powered campaign, but it works well and everyone is having fun. There hasn't been a ton of in-game downtime and because of the accelerated reward system, the group really hasn't been on a ton of runs and therefore don't have a bunch of gear to speak of besides chargen and stuff they have picked up.
But, there is a ton of stuff these guys like to spend karma on and with the karma rules, it really doesn't go as fast or make them as powerful as I would have expected...in the given time.
So, at this point, after 30 weeks of playing, these characters are about where you would be starting your group, using 500 BP. I think it would be fine as long as you keep the group as "professional runners", not up and comers or anything.
I would consider this a higher-powered campaign, but it works well and everyone is having fun. There hasn't been a ton of in-game downtime and because of the accelerated reward system, the group really hasn't been on a ton of runs and therefore don't have a bunch of gear to speak of besides chargen and stuff they have picked up.
But, there is a ton of stuff these guys like to spend karma on and with the karma rules, it really doesn't go as fast or make them as powerful as I would have expected...in the given time.
So, at this point, after 30 weeks of playing, these characters are about where you would be starting your group, using 500 BP. I think it would be fine as long as you keep the group as "professional runners", not up and comers or anything.
Well, i got used to the 400 BPs, works well. Im sure 500 would work fine for a more experienced runner campaign.
I actually find, being an SR3 fan(fav of the 4, tho i enjoy 4), that 450 is a rather comfy amount to work with. It's not too terribly much more(youre basically allowed 25 more attribute points, which isnt too extensive), and 25 gives you some more Resources, Contacts, or if you divvy it up in Skills, a couple extra low end skills or one extra high end. Thinking about it like this, its not too extensive, but still allows for the more 'SR3' starting level runners(but not quite)...who some called overpowered, but i usually thought of it as runners that have been assumed to not be on their first one and have done a few. Another thing is with 450, I found Technomancers to be much more comfortable.
Well, lets break it down numerically. Taking maxes, a mundane character can have(for one instance), with 400:
200 on Attributes
Maxing out cash, can get 250,000(50BP)
Lets say dropping 15 into Contacts(15BP)
perhaps 10 on Edge(10 BP),
for 275 BPs, allowing 125 for Skills. (which go faster than you think sometimes).
This creates a competent, but not overpowering, character....with these resources, im guessing this might be in the lines of sammie or a Drone Hacker.
400 BPs can also make a well-powered, but not overly experienced, mage.
However, as said by many, technos do suffer a little under the 400 yoke.
500 BPs, to create the top sammie/drone hacker said above....
Add 50 Bps to their Attributes, fairly significant.
50 BPs more to spend on Skills or Contacts, also quite significant. If you allow more than 250,000 nuyen, then possibly considerably more Resources.
Yeah, these are some much more experienced runners...but not impossible to challenge. Youll just have to give it some thought.
As for the 320 BP method, its one of those things that i have to be in the mood for. Sometimes i like to play a more down end street gang-like campaign, and it works pretty well, but since most RPGs start you so low, i got a bit tired of it, so i typically more enjoy playing a bit more seasoned(ie, regular 400 BP to 450 BP.)
I actually find, being an SR3 fan(fav of the 4, tho i enjoy 4), that 450 is a rather comfy amount to work with. It's not too terribly much more(youre basically allowed 25 more attribute points, which isnt too extensive), and 25 gives you some more Resources, Contacts, or if you divvy it up in Skills, a couple extra low end skills or one extra high end. Thinking about it like this, its not too extensive, but still allows for the more 'SR3' starting level runners(but not quite)...who some called overpowered, but i usually thought of it as runners that have been assumed to not be on their first one and have done a few. Another thing is with 450, I found Technomancers to be much more comfortable.
Well, lets break it down numerically. Taking maxes, a mundane character can have(for one instance), with 400:
200 on Attributes
Maxing out cash, can get 250,000(50BP)
Lets say dropping 15 into Contacts(15BP)
perhaps 10 on Edge(10 BP),
for 275 BPs, allowing 125 for Skills. (which go faster than you think sometimes).
This creates a competent, but not overpowering, character....with these resources, im guessing this might be in the lines of sammie or a Drone Hacker.
400 BPs can also make a well-powered, but not overly experienced, mage.
However, as said by many, technos do suffer a little under the 400 yoke.
500 BPs, to create the top sammie/drone hacker said above....
Add 50 Bps to their Attributes, fairly significant.
50 BPs more to spend on Skills or Contacts, also quite significant. If you allow more than 250,000 nuyen, then possibly considerably more Resources.
Yeah, these are some much more experienced runners...but not impossible to challenge. Youll just have to give it some thought.
As for the 320 BP method, its one of those things that i have to be in the mood for. Sometimes i like to play a more down end street gang-like campaign, and it works pretty well, but since most RPGs start you so low, i got a bit tired of it, so i typically more enjoy playing a bit more seasoned(ie, regular 400 BP to 450 BP.)
It is much more difficult, and much more expensive to make a well balanced character than it is to make a more potent character. Anyone can make a potent one/two trick pony with 300 BP. However it a very experienced player to make a viable, well balanced character with only 300 BP.
GMs should be wary of restricting BP out of a kneejerk reflex reaction to the power that BPs grant munchkins, lest they starve other players of the ability to be anything but a minmaxer in order to survive.
GMs should be wary of restricting BP out of a kneejerk reflex reaction to the power that BPs grant munchkins, lest they starve other players of the ability to be anything but a minmaxer in order to survive.
It looks to me like the generation caps that are in effect control character generation as much as the build point totals.
You can have 500 bp but if you still keep the availability 12 cap and the 1/2 bp total cap on attributes you end up with more ballanced characters than specialists.
I'm playing my first SR4 character now and he is a 500 point character. He nearly died, took overflow damage in the first adventure. Part of that was that I'm out of practice and made some bloody stupid moves. But still it's not hard to kill a 500 pont character.
If I had to rebuild this character I would spend less on atributes (i used 200 pts) and but about 50 points worth of contacts.
You can have 500 bp but if you still keep the availability 12 cap and the 1/2 bp total cap on attributes you end up with more ballanced characters than specialists.
I'm playing my first SR4 character now and he is a 500 point character. He nearly died, took overflow damage in the first adventure. Part of that was that I'm out of practice and made some bloody stupid moves. But still it's not hard to kill a 500 pont character.
If I had to rebuild this character I would spend less on atributes (i used 200 pts) and but about 50 points worth of contacts.
| QUOTE (OneTrikPony) |
| I'm playing my first SR4 character now and he is a 500 point character. He nearly died, took overflow damage in the first adventure. Part of that was that I'm out of practice and made some bloody stupid moves. But still it's not hard to kill a 500 pont character. |
To be fair to OTP, the entire group nearly died, and they didn't all make bad mistakes. I just upped the ante a bit. I prefer, and run 500 BP games as the norm, and sill find that I can have them pretty set at street level, just by making the characters use a variety of skills, giving them lots of different things to look at, and giving all the NPC's edge. That alone makes it harder on the PC's, and they've yet to face an NPC with an edge higher than 3 (well, excepet for that Mantis chica).
AH HA! I didn't know everyone had edge. I actualy like that idea more skull sweat for the GM but serious NPCs should have their own edge.
I think that's a good way to increase the power of a game and let the world keep up with advancing PC's too, no mater the BP startup.
I think that's a good way to increase the power of a game and let the world keep up with advancing PC's too, no mater the BP startup.
Oh, did I forget to mention that one house rule? 
Yeah, I couldn't find any logical reason that an NPC shouldn't have an attirbute that every PC has, which is also a big part of the reason we play w/ 500 BP. It does make you sweat it a bit.
But that gun fight you were in, I think the only time I used edge for the NPC's was :
1) when the FRT trooper tried to kick the grenade away and glitched
2) the yellowjacket shooting rockets at the hovercraft.
So it can still be plenty nasty without it.
Yeah, I couldn't find any logical reason that an NPC shouldn't have an attirbute that every PC has, which is also a big part of the reason we play w/ 500 BP. It does make you sweat it a bit.
But that gun fight you were in, I think the only time I used edge for the NPC's was :
1) when the FRT trooper tried to kick the grenade away and glitched
2) the yellowjacket shooting rockets at the hovercraft.
So it can still be plenty nasty without it.
MMMM Chunky Aztechnology Trooper Salsa is my favorite brand of salsa... YUMMY!
If anyone wants the recipe;
put 12 aztech guards in a citymaster,
Add one frag grenage
Let bake for 3-5 seconds.
Viola! Who brought the chips?
[edit] sorry for hijaking the thread
on topic; 500 bp is not too much if you have a GM who is a complete bastard. (this has not been another OTP personal attack, just a simple statment of Fact. You all saw the smiley above.)
If anyone wants the recipe;
put 12 aztech guards in a citymaster,
Add one frag grenage
Let bake for 3-5 seconds.
Viola! Who brought the chips?
[edit] sorry for hijaking the thread
on topic; 500 bp is not too much if you have a GM who is a complete bastard. (this has not been another OTP personal attack, just a simple statment of Fact. You all saw the
smiley above.)
| QUOTE (OneTrikPony) |
| Viola! Who brought the chips? |
You did actually. Then the survivors shot you.
but the chips were good!| QUOTE |
| It is much more difficult, and much more expensive to make a well balanced character than it is to make a more potent character. Anyone can make a potent one/two trick pony with 300 BP. However it a very experienced player to make a viable, well balanced character with only 300 BP. GMs should be wary of restricting BP out of a kneejerk reflex reaction to the power that BPs grant munchkins, lest they starve other players of the ability to be anything but a minmaxer in order to survive. |
I sort of noticed this here a bit. Not to a huge extent...but sort of. I guess i try some numerical examples, once again...
Person A, going for the Balanced Build, pops 30 BP into Firearms Group
30 BP into Close Combat Group
20 BP into Stealth Group.
Agility isnt(the stat that seem to be coming into play here), isnt excessive...a natural 4 modded to a 6.
Cost of Skills(lets assume that 200 were spent on attributes), is 80 BPs, and this person has access to every Firearms based skill, every Close Combat based skill, and every Stealth based skill, and does them competently. Smartlink can also be added to Firearms.
Now, Sammy the SMG Sammie decides to go the other direction...Agility is 5(
, 200 BPs still spent on attributes.Instead of Firearms Group, he goes for Automatics(SMGs): 6(+2), for 26 points.
Pistols(Semi-Automatics): 4(+2) for some backup, just incase, for backup, and 18 points.
The obligatory Blades(Swords): 4(+2), another 18 points.
Rounding it off with Infiltration(lets say Sneaking): 4(+2)., 18 points.
Grand Skill Point Total: 80. Just like the balanced guy above.
The balanced character will have the advantage of being able to handle more situations should they come up. However, the specialized character, managing to twink which are probably the mostly used firearms skills(I tend to see Pistols and SMGs come in more than Longarms), rolls alot more than the balanced character in any given situation...Character 1 rolls 9(11) dice with all Firearms skills, while the more specialized rolls 16(18) with just his SMGs!! 14(16) with all Automatics, 12(14) with Pistols and 14(16) with Semi-Automatics, totally trouncing the balanced character in many situations. With Close Combat, character 1 throws a decent 9 dice, while 2 with his Blades throws 12, and Swords 14. Yikes.
Sad part is, should the twinked guy pick up, say, Longarms...which Character 1 has him beat in, having the skill and throwing 9(11 linked) dice for....character 2 defaults, adds a smartlink..and gets 9. Which is...the base amount the balanced guy gets without a smartlink. For close combat, he throws 7 with a club or spurs or unarmed, which is less than the balanced guy..but not that much. Stealth wise, character 1 throws 8 with Agility based ones and 6 with Intuition based ones(Int4), the twinked character throws 12 with Infiltrating, 14 with Sneaking, and defaulting to Agility lets him throw 7(1 less than balanced), and with his Intuition 5(important for specialists), he throws 4.
And i can see totally why people twink a specialist out. The disadvantage of throwing a couple less dice in other areas(but still a respectable amount), is a small price to pay for trouncing a balanced character in other areas. Yes, in the end the numbers arent everything, but nothing wrong with wanting to make an effective character.
Thing is, i dont know if changing the amount of points will make the balanced character be able to stand out. A little more perhaps, but i think im going to keep on working with my alternate SR4 chargen(bringing back Priorities), and post it here soon. I just about have it figured out, and i think it might fix a few problems here. I mean, SR3 had specialists as well, but for some reason i tended to find neither side(balanced vs. specialist) having a severe advantage over the other...they each had their unique advantages and disadvantages. (ForEx, in the above examples, in SR3, char 1 would take a 4 Pistols, SMGs, Assault Rifles and Shotguns, for 16 points. Char 2 took a 6 SMG and 6 Pistol. 4 less points spent but since defaulting was much harsher, char 1 would still have an advantage in some situations.)
There just seems to be something with the chargen that makes it more...tempting to make the specialist, and im trying to put my finger on it. I still think that damned defaulting skill that i keep bitching about but cant figure a way to fix it has something to do with it
The question I'd be asking as a GM, is where that specialised character picked up his skills.
I tend to feel that demanding justification is a reasonable check on twinks, and at the very least you can make them feel stupid by pointing out the gaping holes and illogic in their character backgrounds.
Of course should a player come up with a reasonable reason for his character to be so insanely good with SMGs while barely having picked up a rifle, that's fine.
I tend to feel that demanding justification is a reasonable check on twinks, and at the very least you can make them feel stupid by pointing out the gaping holes and illogic in their character backgrounds.
Of course should a player come up with a reasonable reason for his character to be so insanely good with SMGs while barely having picked up a rifle, that's fine.
Some of you are acting like this is a new thing for Shadowrun -- this is why BeCKS was invented back in the year 2000. True, it hasn't been modified for 4th edition yet (the latest version, linked from the bottom of this post is v2 from the year 2004), but this is Dumpshock so I assume it will be updated soon. Perhaps we could start a thread to discuss it.
| QUOTE |
| http://tss.dumpshock.com/15/art15-b2.html You pride yourself on your creative and well-rounded Shadowrun characters. You've just finished making Jack Bull, the baddest Ork Sammy on the streets of Seattle, and you find you have two skill points left to spend. What do you do with them? You think that maybe to round out the character a little, you should really take two points of Car to reflect the time you spent as a bodyguard/driver. But on the other hand, it sure would be nice to raise Assault Rifles from 4 to 6. Hmm… what to do? Do you round out your character with driving skill even though you know that after one session of game play, you could buy that two points of driving skill for only 4 karma? Or do you max out the combat skill knowing that it would cost you 16 karma to do that later? Such a dilemma. We all know that "good roleplayers" will eschew the temptations of min/max-ing and put the points wherever makes the most sense for the character-but why should "good roleplayers" be put at a disadvantage simply because they designed a richer, fuller character? |
Oh, i personally loved BeCKS. I showed it to some gamer friends and they agreed as well, when converting my SR3 Shaman to BeCKS he came out wonderfully well rounded, much better than before. I like the example they give. I recall there being a variant of SR4 BeCKS somewhere on the forum. With a little work you could probably heave over the old BeCKS to the new.
| QUOTE |
| There just seems to be something with the chargen that makes it more...tempting to make the specialist, and im trying to put my finger on it. I still think that damned defaulting skill that i keep bitching about but cant figure a way to fix it has something to do with it |
I think you hit it on the nose. Why buy skill groups when you can throw 15+ dice for the same bp cost?
Being a generalist doesn't work well in group play. If you have 4 players you'll usually end up with one of each archetype; mage, sami/adept, hacker, rigger. Or you'll end up with two or three players that want to play the same arcetype (mage). You'll end up with a team of 4 specialists or you'll end up heavy in one skill set. In either case the generalist will get left out in the cold durring most of the game play. If you have a team that covers all of the specializations the generalist just ends up in a support role. "Let me do that I'm faster/better/deadlier." If you have a team that is heavy in one archetype the generalist will end up filling a specialists role and doing an inadequate job.
I had a player in SR3 that always ran into this problem. He wasn't interested in spellslinging, (I'm not talking about me this time) What he loved was rigging and specificly driving and building passenger vehicles. It didn't take him long to figure out that there are many problems that can't be solved by a machinegun in a popup turret. So he would usually spend 5 essence on a VCR and then try to make his character a shooter too. It never worked. Many times his character was as useless out of the vehicle as he was inside it. My point is that the generalist get's spread too thin. When you have well built specialists a generalist on the ground can be outright dangerous to the rest of the team. My approach with a low BP character would be to make a specialist that fit's well into the slot left by the other characters or to make a semi-generalist who is actually a specilist in one of the more esoteric roleplay intencive areas of the game; A face/procurement officer guy who can run and gun in a pinch a mystic adept who knows health spells.
With 500 bp though you run up against caps pretty quick (this assumes that you don't get unlimited funds or attribute bp an that you retain the availability cap on gear at chargen.) It means that your 500 bp character is no better at shooting/spellslinging/driving/hacking than the 400 pt specialist character but he gets to spend 100 points on a sideline like computer skills and gear for your mage, Charisma and social skills for your samurai.
Basicly, if you keep the normal cargen caps on a 500 pt character you start the game with a PC that has already filled in some holes that would eat his first 70 points of karma.
| QUOTE (OneTrikPony @ Jan 3 2007, 08:40 PM) |
| AH HA! I didn't know everyone had edge. I actualy like that idea more skull sweat for the GM but serious NPCs should have their own edge. I think that's a good way to increase the power of a game and let the world keep up with advancing PC's too, no mater the BP startup. |
I like to allocate a dual statted group Edge to NPCs for combats. The first number is the Edge dice, the second larger number are total number of times that the group Edge can be tapped. A common number is something like 4 Edge, 8 total taps.
I also use poker chips for Edge (whether as GM or player). I've handed out chips for the players too. So keeping track is easy. At the start I set up two different colour stacks on the table. The first has the number of Edge dice and the second are for the extra times the Edge can be tapped, for the example I gave above it would be 4 of one colour and 4 of another colour. So the players have an idea going in how much weight is going to get thrown at them.
Every time someone goes to use Edge they toss a poker chip. I really like the physical feel of that (I use 11.5g chips, not the crappo light ones), and when the chips are gone so's the Edge.
I really don't see why 500 BP would be a problem. Especially since presumably you'd leave all the caps on skills and stuff in place.
I mean Shadowrun has been a great game for a long time. I remeber for a while there you could be a human with a million nuyen, stats of 6 6 6 4 4 4 a good batch of skills and have some positive/negative qualities to boot.
That'd be something like a 700 point character. And we still had a blast and they always wanted that Karma for something. (maybe not quite as desperatly though).
I'm guessing what you'll get are characters who can do more than just one thing and that would be good.
I'm more worried about the 4+ and the 6's both being in play. On the other hand that may help mitigate the extra points. With both of those rules the security guard you didn't notice in the corner has a respectable chance of turning one of your player's character sheets into hamster cage lining. That'll keep them on their toes.
I mean Shadowrun has been a great game for a long time. I remeber for a while there you could be a human with a million nuyen, stats of 6 6 6 4 4 4 a good batch of skills and have some positive/negative qualities to boot.
That'd be something like a 700 point character. And we still had a blast and they always wanted that Karma for something. (maybe not quite as desperatly though).
I'm guessing what you'll get are characters who can do more than just one thing and that would be good.
I'm more worried about the 4+ and the 6's both being in play. On the other hand that may help mitigate the extra points. With both of those rules the security guard you didn't notice in the corner has a respectable chance of turning one of your player's character sheets into hamster cage lining. That'll keep them on their toes.
| QUOTE |
| My approach with a low BP character would be to make a specialist that fit's well into the slot left by the other characters or to make a semi-generalist who is actually a specilist in one of the more esoteric roleplay intencive areas of the game; A face/procurement officer guy who can run and gun in a pinch a mystic adept who knows health spells. |
I find generalists tend to fit best in small groups. When you cant fill every niche.
for the 400 point method, its quite easy to make, say, the sammie that pulls backup Face duty. (a couple dozen BPs devoted to some social skills and even a 3 charisma can backup quite fine.) Or the mage that has a good Blades(swords) skill to help hold off melee attackers. Its possible under 400. Or the examples you gave, all work.
What you said about the rigger...i see what you mean. Theres a difference between what was mentioned (face who could run and gun, the sammie who could back up a face, the adept who happened to have a good Driving skill in a couple vehicles), and a full blown generalist. I always pictured the full blown generalist as...well, in a weapons situation, the weapons specialist. Even with the name 'specialist', the archetype is still sort of a 'weapons generalist' if you know what i mean. Your rigger example seemed to be one of those fellas who tried to spread TOO thin...a rigger, with, however, a good skill in SMGs or Assault Rifles would be very viable, however. A rigger with good skills in SMGs, ARs, Pistols and Shotguns might not me.
And dont get me wrong, i understand limitations, and why they are there. You dont have to be hot at everything right out of the box, nor would i expect to be or even want to be. I like room to grow. The only thing I(and i know others ive spoken to) are trying to figure out is how to make a genralist without the extreme disadvantages vs. the specialist. (and i must say a 6-8 dice difference is pretty extreme.)
Of course, the counterarguement could be 'well, with karma, the generalist will eventually go past the specialist.' Well, not really with these hard caps. Eventually, the generalist will get his skills up there. But since the specialist all but maxed a few skills, where does the karma go? Into the other skills. Another reason why the low hard caps bother me, in about 200 karma the sammie and the weapons generalist will be about the same. (yeah, more houserule tweaking to do.) In the ol' days</grognard> without the limits, that specialist can keep pouring tons of karma into his SMGs making him the best SMG shooter around. Where general guy would up all of his other skills to good levels...but not quite the supreme levels.
ahh, with all the hot air i have, perhaps i should make a thread with some of the houserules ive came up with.
| QUOTE |
| I find generalists tend to fit best in small groups. When you cant fill every niche. |
Good Point. In groups with less than 4 PCs everyone ought to spread the BP further.
SR4 has fixed the rigger problems alot. A big part of the problem with the SR2-3 Rigger/sami was that old initiative system. He had the skill points to spread around because the VCR let you default on all pilot skills with a rigged vehicle but Initiative (Reaction actually) was even more important for dismounted characters back then.
I know exactly what you're saying about the disadvantages of a generalist. I end up using paramilitary or ex-military backgrounds for my characters about half the time. It's realy difficult to give a character 'profesional' levels of Outdoors skills when your fighting for every bp you can get for fighting/stealth or in the case of my 500 pt Navy Seal combat hacker electronics/hacking/fighting/stealth/athletics/outdoors
If you look at the Tir Ghosts in the BBB they might be called generalists and they bench mark at 600 - 800 BP
| QUOTE (sunnyside) |
| I'm more worried about the 4+ and the 6's both being in play. On the other hand that may help mitigate the extra points. With both of those rules the security guard you didn't notice in the corner has a respectable chance of turning one of your player's character sheets into hamster cage lining. That'll keep them on their toes. |
We discussed this a bit further and decided to only use the 4+ and xploda6 for combat.
Got rid of the wonky error posts. No worries. If anyone gets 404 errors again please post it to the Bugs etc. forum so we can try and get it fixed. Thanks!
My current group used 500 BP for chargen, with 250 BP allowed for attributes.
Nothing else changed, caps, etc...
I don't find it game breaking at all. Everyone is still needing lots of points for skill increases. No one has 20+ dice in a skill. The highest is 15 (in one weapon only), with most skills still being in the 11 dice range.
Admittedly, everyone tried to make balanced chars, with decent background stories. The only one who didn't, his char lasted 2 games, then the player made a balanced one and retired the one trick char.
Nothing else changed, caps, etc...
I don't find it game breaking at all. Everyone is still needing lots of points for skill increases. No one has 20+ dice in a skill. The highest is 15 (in one weapon only), with most skills still being in the 11 dice range.
Admittedly, everyone tried to make balanced chars, with decent background stories. The only one who didn't, his char lasted 2 games, then the player made a balanced one and retired the one trick char.
...I envy your group. I wish my group did more balanced instead of munch characters.
It was kind of funny.
Everyone forgot /decided not to have high edge, and most forgot to get perception.
So, now everyone carefully nurtures their edge, only using it for life and death situations.
And everyone, after the first couple bacon trees, decided to start getting/raising perception.
Bacon tree, play on french pronounciation of ambush, which often sounds like ham bush, hence bacon tree.
Everyone forgot /decided not to have high edge, and most forgot to get perception.
So, now everyone carefully nurtures their edge, only using it for life and death situations.
And everyone, after the first couple bacon trees, decided to start getting/raising perception.
Bacon tree, play on french pronounciation of ambush, which often sounds like ham bush, hence bacon tree.
That's the way it worked out with us, too. Instead on focusing on one area, we spread the additional BP out. We created elite soldiers, each one with an area of specialty, and needed to have a lot of skills. 500BP isn't really enough to build convincing commandos .
I just wished the 50BP maximum for resources could have been increased as well for, my well cybered char (0,01 essence in the end, only alphaware the datajack...).
Edit: at least my char had edge 4 and 11 dice for visual and audio perception tests... seems common that some people underestimate the importance of perception, at least at the beginning:
.I just wished the 50BP maximum for resources could have been increased as well for, my well cybered char (0,01 essence in the end, only alphaware the datajack...).
Edit: at least my char had edge 4 and 11 dice for visual and audio perception tests... seems common that some people underestimate the importance of perception, at least at the beginning
:
I've noticed that too... The number of characters I've vetted for SR4 and I've had to say "you might want to think about dropping the unarmed combat 7 and buying at least a point or two of perception".
Not enough to build convincing commandos? 500BP is hardly enough to build a convincing real world, modern day person. I tried this little experiment...I got out of Active Duty in 2000. At that time, I was probably in about the best physical shape I've ever been in (@ 25 years of age), still had all of my military skills polished, and had already started working hard at breaking into the IT field.
Here are my projected stats based on what I know about myself and how the SR4 book measures such things.
BOD: 4 [I was running 2 miles in about 11.5 minutes, could max the push-ups (72) and Situps (72) portions of the PT test without difficulty, and had completed many long road marches with full gear. I also rarely got sick (still don't), never had any diseases or sicknesses worse than the flu, and have never had any broken bones. Don't smoke, and drank moderately (on the weekends). All in all, I was in excellent health...well above average.]
AGI: 3 [I was fairly average in this regard. Shooting, playing pool, and other types of coordination skills came easily to me, so I don't think this warrants less than a 3.]
REA: 3 [Same as above. In sports, and combat training, it pays to be able to react well. I was usually on the ball and not often caught unawares. Solid average score here.]
STR: 3 [At 185 lbs, I was benching 220, 10 reps, 3 sets. I probably could have pushed myself harder, but wasn't really concerned with building high str. Straight up average here.]
CHA: 3 [I'm a friendly guy, make friends easily, and can get along in almost any environment. I'm not a big charmer, though, and only had average luck with the ladies. So I give this a 3.]
INTu: 3 [My intuition is about average, though I have no real way to quantify that.]
LOG: 4 [I always did very well in school, and was an extremely fast learner. I scored well on standardized tests, as well as just about any other thing that was designed to gauge smarts. I pride myself on my ability to problem solve and develop solutions. I'm a voracious reader, and spend lots of time learning anything I can. I feel this qualified me for a 4 Log. Let me know if you guys/girls believe otherwise.]
WILL: 3 [A score of 3 here. I'm pretty self disciplined, but would give in to temptation from time to time. Will of 3 makes sense here.]
Given those scores, that puts me with 180BP from stats. That's aweful close to the max.
Now skills. This part is considerably longer, so I'm going to tag it for those not interested in reading a mini-novel.
I don't think that skill set is at all unreasonable for a 25 year old US male who spent the previous 6 years as a dismount Infantryman in the Army. And what does it add up to? A whopping 188 build points.
So altogether, we have 368 BP. And that doesn't account for resources, knowledge skills, Contacts, or anything else. How on earth are you supposed to be able to build a realistic, respectable, professional criminal with 400 bp? And if you want to build a character with the skillset of an Army Ranger (or, God forbid, an Army SpecOps Operator), you better AT LEAST have 600 BP or more.
Here are my projected stats based on what I know about myself and how the SR4 book measures such things.
BOD: 4 [I was running 2 miles in about 11.5 minutes, could max the push-ups (72) and Situps (72) portions of the PT test without difficulty, and had completed many long road marches with full gear. I also rarely got sick (still don't), never had any diseases or sicknesses worse than the flu, and have never had any broken bones. Don't smoke, and drank moderately (on the weekends). All in all, I was in excellent health...well above average.]
AGI: 3 [I was fairly average in this regard. Shooting, playing pool, and other types of coordination skills came easily to me, so I don't think this warrants less than a 3.]
REA: 3 [Same as above. In sports, and combat training, it pays to be able to react well. I was usually on the ball and not often caught unawares. Solid average score here.]
STR: 3 [At 185 lbs, I was benching 220, 10 reps, 3 sets. I probably could have pushed myself harder, but wasn't really concerned with building high str. Straight up average here.]
CHA: 3 [I'm a friendly guy, make friends easily, and can get along in almost any environment. I'm not a big charmer, though, and only had average luck with the ladies. So I give this a 3.]
INTu: 3 [My intuition is about average, though I have no real way to quantify that.]
LOG: 4 [I always did very well in school, and was an extremely fast learner. I scored well on standardized tests, as well as just about any other thing that was designed to gauge smarts. I pride myself on my ability to problem solve and develop solutions. I'm a voracious reader, and spend lots of time learning anything I can. I feel this qualified me for a 4 Log. Let me know if you guys/girls believe otherwise.]
WILL: 3 [A score of 3 here. I'm pretty self disciplined, but would give in to temptation from time to time. Will of 3 makes sense here.]
Given those scores, that puts me with 180BP from stats. That's aweful close to the max.
Now skills. This part is considerably longer, so I'm going to tag it for those not interested in reading a mini-novel.
[ Spoiler ]
I don't think that skill set is at all unreasonable for a 25 year old US male who spent the previous 6 years as a dismount Infantryman in the Army. And what does it add up to? A whopping 188 build points.
So altogether, we have 368 BP. And that doesn't account for resources, knowledge skills, Contacts, or anything else. How on earth are you supposed to be able to build a realistic, respectable, professional criminal with 400 bp? And if you want to build a character with the skillset of an Army Ranger (or, God forbid, an Army SpecOps Operator), you better AT LEAST have 600 BP or more.
450 Bp plus some free points for charisma seems to do it well, for ex-mil types and gives nicely rounded runners.
...While I would consider allowing characters to apply up to 100 BPs to the resources (as MrJ's LBB does for the optional high power chargen), availability for a lot of gear is still a limiting factor. Of course, following the Mr J's model, you could simply raise the Chargen Availability cap to 15.
I was digging through the boxes with some of my old gaming material today and I found something that relates to this topic. In the game GURPS, characters were built on 100 points standard. One campaign was very different. The Special Operations campaign started at either 400 or 500 points. The result was characters with pretty normal stats (except for the Health, representing all the physical training they do), a wide variety of other skills and a specialty area with very high levels.
In SR, you might have a Sammie with high levels in several weapon classes, plus above average skill in stealth, survival, demolitions and such, with fair skills in a few vehicles, electronics, computers, etc.
In SR, you might have a Sammie with high levels in several weapon classes, plus above average skill in stealth, survival, demolitions and such, with fair skills in a few vehicles, electronics, computers, etc.
| QUOTE (Ophis) |
| 450 Bp plus some free points for charisma seems to do it well, for ex-mil types and gives nicely rounded runners. |
And 100 Karma on top helps
Well, as it stands, 400pt chars are playable. Some can even be pretty good at what they do. However, a Special/Black Ops(depending if youre being 'goog' or 'bad' ) team, a team of more experienced runners, and the like...its hard to make with that. You can make an above-average person with training...but no vet. Ive had fun with mine. However its also been a chain holding back some of my old SR3 chars that i only got to play a couple of times(and thus dont have a ton of karma), who nearly halved in ability with the new system.
Ya know, i admit...one thing i dont really like what they say in the book...I know you dont HAVE to follow the RAW but it still makes me think the game was directed more at new players.... ''attribute limit exists to prevent overspending and ensures characters are well rounded.''
Hmm...what if i dont WANT to play a rounded character? That line to me was geared toward new players who might find it easier to play a rounded character...but man, i miss the Priority system that let you pretty much determine what your character is good and bad at. That is why i am considering erasing this cap for a home game...
Ive been compiling some house rules about things that arent working for me so far in SR4, and will post soon in a thread for some feedback. ive been saying that for awhile, i know, but i saw something shiny in a corner.
) team, a team of more experienced runners, and the like...its hard to make with that. You can make an above-average person with training...but no vet. Ive had fun with mine. However its also been a chain holding back some of my old SR3 chars that i only got to play a couple of times(and thus dont have a ton of karma), who nearly halved in ability with the new system.Ya know, i admit...one thing i dont really like what they say in the book...I know you dont HAVE to follow the RAW but it still makes me think the game was directed more at new players.... ''attribute limit exists to prevent overspending and ensures characters are well rounded.''
Hmm...what if i dont WANT to play a rounded character? That line to me was geared toward new players who might find it easier to play a rounded character...but man, i miss the Priority system that let you pretty much determine what your character is good and bad at. That is why i am considering erasing this cap for a home game...
Ive been compiling some house rules about things that arent working for me so far in SR4, and will post soon in a thread for some feedback. ive been saying that for awhile, i know, but i saw something shiny in a corner.
| QUOTE (ElFenrir) |
| Well, as it stands, 400pt chars are playable. Some can even be pretty good at what they do. However, a Special/Black Ops(depending if youre being 'goog' or 'bad' ) team, a team of more experienced runners, and the like...its hard to make with that. You can make an above-average person with training...but no vet. Ive had fun with mine. However its also been a chain holding back some of my old SR3 chars that i only got to play a couple of times(and thus dont have a ton of karma), who nearly halved in ability with the new system. |
In that GURPS manual, they pointed out that even at 500 points, that represented a special operations types just finishing training. However, given that you have to have years in services for the higher level units, it is possible to have seen some action. But the general idea was that the characters were green, especially as far as special ops.
Building a character at that level is quite different from growing one. You lose a lot of experience (the gamer does), so that high powered character might not be played to the best of its ability and could get taken out by a lower powered character played by an experienced player.
| QUOTE (Thane36425) |
| Building a character at that level is quite different from growing one. You lose a lot of experience (the gamer does), so that high powered character might not be played to the best of its ability and could get taken out by a lower powered character played by an experienced player. |
...done that before In an old AD&D tournament. We were allowed to bring in our own characters on this one. The DM was surprised when I was bringing in only a 10th level ranger (whom I had played in a long running campaign) while all the other characters were 15th - 19th level (most of them rolled up for the adventure.
A number of his magic items were also unique to the campaign so I didn't bring them but he did have his crossbow (Accuracy/Distance/Speed which he commissioned a Wizard to make) and ten of his exploding arrows.
Long story to short.
The group got split up (very bad). The team, which he was appointed leader of, made it all the way through (without any casualties) The other team didn't.
The DM was most amazed by how the character handled things. One of Father Tel's (the ranger) abilities was that he had become a superior tactician though the years I played him (he fought in 2 wars during the campaign) and was an expert at solving puzzles & clues. At that point in time I had been playing him for four (real) years out of a five year long campaign.
KK, you make some valid points. However, I feel that your example illustrates an issue that is much more endemic to D&D than to Shadowrun. In D&D (3.0, 3.5, pick your poison), the characters abilites can change pretty drastically over the levels, and a 20th level wizard is a wholely different character than a 1st level Wizard, and the two characters will have to behave differently during encounters.
SR4 characters don't change that much over the course of leveling. They get BETTER at what they could do before, but usually don't become completely diff characters. There are exceptions (Mages doubling their spells known over the course of their career, Street Samurai who invest tons of karma into boosting their computer skills so they become excellent hackers), but in general, your character just gets better at what he/she does.
A Street Samurai character will typically get better at fighting (shooting, stabbing, etc.), will get tougher and faster, and will end up with better equipment/cyber. But he/she still plays the same. If a player doesn't know how to play a samurai, it isn't going to be any different if that samurai starts at 300, 400, 500, or 600 BP.
Secondly, you don't address the issue of when the PLAYERS are very well experienced. For me personally, I've been playing and GMing SR since about 1992. I've played across all 4 iterations, but have generally stuck to the same sorts of characters. "Ex Army SpecOps" defines about 80% of the characters I have played in SR. If nothing else, I have hundreds of hours of exprience playing such characters...from right out of the box to 300+ karma (SR2 and 3). I don't think that not having played a SR4 SpecOps guy up to 200 karma would in any way make me less effective at playing a 600BP SpecOps guy.
SR4 characters don't change that much over the course of leveling. They get BETTER at what they could do before, but usually don't become completely diff characters. There are exceptions (Mages doubling their spells known over the course of their career, Street Samurai who invest tons of karma into boosting their computer skills so they become excellent hackers), but in general, your character just gets better at what he/she does.
A Street Samurai character will typically get better at fighting (shooting, stabbing, etc.), will get tougher and faster, and will end up with better equipment/cyber. But he/she still plays the same. If a player doesn't know how to play a samurai, it isn't going to be any different if that samurai starts at 300, 400, 500, or 600 BP.
Secondly, you don't address the issue of when the PLAYERS are very well experienced. For me personally, I've been playing and GMing SR since about 1992. I've played across all 4 iterations, but have generally stuck to the same sorts of characters. "Ex Army SpecOps" defines about 80% of the characters I have played in SR. If nothing else, I have hundreds of hours of exprience playing such characters...from right out of the box to 300+ karma (SR2 and 3). I don't think that not having played a SR4 SpecOps guy up to 200 karma would in any way make me less effective at playing a 600BP SpecOps guy.
To me, where the BP system of SR4 suffers the most is with the skills.
Each archetype has a group of skills that directly effect impact how well that person fills his/her role.
For example, a Face NEEDS to have good scores in skills like Negotiate, Etiquette, Con, etc. to be an effective FACE. In general, if a player wants to play a Face type character, he is going to put his best scores in those skills.
This is normal for all archetypes. Usually the next part is picking up a few other useful skills outside of that archetype's specialty. Here is where things start to break down. Because of the 400BP limitation, characters often have to forego getting some of the less useful, though flavorful/situationally useful skills. That Ex-Marine Merc you are putting together just won't end up having room for skills like Parachuting and Diving (even though he should have them) unless he sacrifices some points from his Automatics and Heavy weapons skills (which he needs and uses often).
The game just doesn't recommend enough starting BP to give players those options. So what you end up with is characters that are really good in their specialties, but have almost nothing to support areas outside of that.
I just find it difficult to be a specialized, but well-rounded character with only 400BP.
Each archetype has a group of skills that directly effect impact how well that person fills his/her role.
For example, a Face NEEDS to have good scores in skills like Negotiate, Etiquette, Con, etc. to be an effective FACE. In general, if a player wants to play a Face type character, he is going to put his best scores in those skills.
This is normal for all archetypes. Usually the next part is picking up a few other useful skills outside of that archetype's specialty. Here is where things start to break down. Because of the 400BP limitation, characters often have to forego getting some of the less useful, though flavorful/situationally useful skills. That Ex-Marine Merc you are putting together just won't end up having room for skills like Parachuting and Diving (even though he should have them) unless he sacrifices some points from his Automatics and Heavy weapons skills (which he needs and uses often).
The game just doesn't recommend enough starting BP to give players those options. So what you end up with is characters that are really good in their specialties, but have almost nothing to support areas outside of that.
I just find it difficult to be a specialized, but well-rounded character with only 400BP.
...ahh, sound like some kind of a 'Package Deal" option is in order here.
This is what the Hero Games system uses for creating archetypes.
This is what the Hero Games system uses for creating archetypes.
You know, I've done a LOT of thinking about "character background packages" for SR. I've even tried my hand at developing a few. I've never been very happy with what I've put together. There are just too many variations of characters. And part of what makes SR so great is the freedom of building your character the way you want them built. The last thing I want to see is SR "character classes".
| QUOTE (TheOneRonin) |
| SR4 characters don't change that much over the course of leveling. They get BETTER at what they could do before, but usually don't become completely diff characters. There are exceptions (Mages doubling their spells known over the course of their career, Street Samurai who invest tons of karma into boosting their computer skills so they become excellent hackers), but in general, your character just gets better at what he/she does. |
...True, there is not a whole lot of difference between a character's abilities and attributes as they advence in SR opposed to D&D. The Illustration was to show that it is more the way a character's personality works (or doesn't work). Even more so than my namesake "KK", Father Tel is the most highly developed character I have from a personality standpoint. His thought processes has definitely grown though his experiences over the years of gaming. I still remember when he and the rest of the party were knocking off Kobolds for a couple of silver just to get a room and dinner at the inn for the night. This is why he was such a good leader and could adapt to the situations he faced in the adventure so well. In Shadowrun it is the same, even though the "statistical" (for lack of a better term) growth is not as dramatic as it is in D&D. Character personality gained through playing up to a given rating level is still valuable.
Better example, For running Brainscan, the GM had us use the Powerful BP system in Mr J's LBB. On top of this we also received Karma (Via 3d6 random roll). I found I had little attachment for the character since they were already so "ubermensch" right out of the box. Even though this campaign lasted several months, the characters really didn't grow as personalities since they pretty much had all the tools needed for the mission at hand.
On the other hand my character Leela was built on the standard 120 BPs and had a few deficiencies because there were not enough points to get everything she needed to make her an experienced Resistance Freedom Fighter. For example, It came to a tossup between Athletics and Stealth (Athletics won out because when she was a girl she wanted to be an Olympic ice skater - Stealth was chipped though her Skillwires). I learned to play her around these limits which made the character not only more resourceful, but had a definite effect on her development.
Im really leaning toward BeCKS SR4 style. BeCKS removed a lot of problems that plagued the chargen. It took longer, etc...but worth it. Ok, we can look from a standpoint of normal 3e becks for things like cost of magic, adept, and technomancer(tho i think they would be cheaper than otaku. Under any old chargen, Otaku were HELL expensive to play.)
SR4 has attributes increased with karma by 3x new level. Ok, that can stick. Skill groups? 5x new level. Fine. Skills? 2x new level. Great, works well. Specialization karma is factored.
Using old BeCKS costs of magical aptitude, as said, can stick i think. Magic can be increased as attribute, as Resonance.
Just figuring a Karma cost for Nuyen might need some work, as the stuffs a lot cheaper now, so you wouldnt get as much per karma as the old BeCKS system.
Starting Karma is adjusted as per GM. Whatever is needed or good for campaign.
It can be done, i think, with a bit of tweaking. Then, rounded, useful characters, or specialized characters, would all be viable.
SR4 has attributes increased with karma by 3x new level. Ok, that can stick. Skill groups? 5x new level. Fine. Skills? 2x new level. Great, works well. Specialization karma is factored.
Using old BeCKS costs of magical aptitude, as said, can stick i think. Magic can be increased as attribute, as Resonance.
Just figuring a Karma cost for Nuyen might need some work, as the stuffs a lot cheaper now, so you wouldnt get as much per karma as the old BeCKS system.
Starting Karma is adjusted as per GM. Whatever is needed or good for campaign.
It can be done, i think, with a bit of tweaking. Then, rounded, useful characters, or specialized characters, would all be viable.
serbitar has a version of a BeCKS type chargen system (similar in that it uses karma, i believe).
i've previously worked out something myself, though it was pretty basic and didn't really ever get playtested at all, but if you just directly convert everything that has a stated karma value as well as BP value, and then translate over those things which only have BP costs at a 1:1 ratio, you end up with about 425 karma for the various archetypes in the book (mind you, this is before errata though... the archetypes have changed slightly iirc).
the big offenders were the technomancer on the underside (which, i think you will agree, fits... i think she worked out to something like 380 karma... and she could use some powering up, so no problems there) and the enforcer, whose combination of extremely high strength and body in addition to his extremely poorly chosen qualities put his cost higher than was reasonable. probably if you were to tweak the costs of attributes so that racial bonus was not factored in, though, the enforcer would have been fine. certainly, i don't think he was actually worth over 500 karma.
but then you get into other tweaks that should happen (such as the ever popular tweaks which make the technomancer not totally useless), and you start ending up with a set of house rules which you have to use if you're going to get any use out of the chargen.
as a general rule though, i would say SR4 needs a little bit more tweaking in how certain things progress before a karma chargen system will really work out quite right.
i've previously worked out something myself, though it was pretty basic and didn't really ever get playtested at all, but if you just directly convert everything that has a stated karma value as well as BP value, and then translate over those things which only have BP costs at a 1:1 ratio, you end up with about 425 karma for the various archetypes in the book (mind you, this is before errata though... the archetypes have changed slightly iirc).
the big offenders were the technomancer on the underside (which, i think you will agree, fits... i think she worked out to something like 380 karma... and she could use some powering up, so no problems there) and the enforcer, whose combination of extremely high strength and body in addition to his extremely poorly chosen qualities put his cost higher than was reasonable. probably if you were to tweak the costs of attributes so that racial bonus was not factored in, though, the enforcer would have been fine. certainly, i don't think he was actually worth over 500 karma.
but then you get into other tweaks that should happen (such as the ever popular tweaks which make the technomancer not totally useless), and you start ending up with a set of house rules which you have to use if you're going to get any use out of the chargen.
as a general rule though, i would say SR4 needs a little bit more tweaking in how certain things progress before a karma chargen system will really work out quite right.
Frank Trollman has an interesting chargen rules set, that can be found here.
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