i was wondering if it is possible for a hacker/rigger to "jump into" his own body if it has mostly cyber parts such as a torso and two full legs.

my argument is that becasue when a rigger jumps into a drone, he controls the drone as if it were his own body, so when you jump into your body, it would act like your own body, just faster becasue your not relying on your meat senses for information

[Grabs his Munchkin Mallet]
This has come up before in the forums and it sounds like it contains the same amount of cheese as the last time...

Well yes, but this is already worked into your standard mostly-borg body. In this case, you're talking about wired reflexes. So, you're not relying on your meat body anymore. If you used your body as a drone and recieved rigging enhancements, then you shouldn't recieve the benefits of all of the cyborg enhancements.

well, hey, just trying to gain every advantage i possibly if it can keep my runner alive long enough for the next run. nothin wrong with powergaming

i forgot to mention that the main reason that i argue this point is to gain initiative passes. and its not like it comes with no disadvantages. because now you have to make pilot anthroform rolls and have to have cyber mounted weapons in order to use them, not to mention that you would have to have some form of sensor array in order ot percieve anything.

That's fine, but I still don't think Wired Reflexes should grant intiative passes then since it augments your current meat reflexes, and in the rigging situation, you're replacing it. In other words, it wouldn't be worth it.

Besides, you can't combine different sources of initiative boosters anyway.

So, controlling your own body directly is slower than controlling it by routing your control through additional devices?

I'm not a networks professional, but could you run that by me again?

its all in the processing speed.
in a meat body you have a biological raction dependant on muscle tone and definitionl. however when your rigging something, your movements are dictated at the speed of thought, its the same reason that its faster to hack something in hotsim vr then to do it in ar. your hacking programs run at the same speed, you can just respond to input faster.

It shouldn't work unless the body is entirely cybernetic. Which isn't possible. Because then it'd be a robot. Not a person. Or, worse, a robot with a human brain. Which is an ugly thing for Shadowrun in my opinion.
Cyberlimbs are not simply devices attached to the body. They are an integral part of the body. You can't bypass the nervous system because the limbs need the nervous system. It's how they work. So it's about the processing, right? That's what the nervous system does. How do you make the nervous system faster? Wired reflexes/synaptic boosters.

Unless you have something like Wired Reflexes, the communication paths necessary to get the initiative boost just aren't there. An anthroform drone doesn't need any space at all for meat, so there's no trouble fitting in the control wiring and intermediate motion processing nodes. If you want to put that stuff in to go as fast as an anthroform drone, I'd say it would cost about 3 essence - maybe 1 if you made it bioware, but then the electronics interfaces would be harder.

technicly wired reflexes doesnt apply to cyberlimbs because it is bodyware and bodyware cannot be installed in cyberlimbs.

to touch point on exactly what a cyber torso and skull are is that the doc replaces the bone and muscle structure with the tech, its not just a metal sleave that they put over the bone and muscle. the book calls it just a shell because only the bone and muscles are replaced, not organs.

Unfortunately for you Celegar the FAQ clearly states that someone in AR can hack faster than or just as fast as someone in VR mode. Apparently we have the technology to make people type fast as thought but it doesn't actually speed them up any faster. Oh well.

im not saying that they actually become faster, just that they can respont quicker to stimuli, which is exacly why you get two additional initiative passes while in full vr, because you can respont quicker to stimuli. as far as hacking in ar vs vr, the interval between checks would tend to contradict with the FAQ on that fact as the interval is longer between being able to make hacking attempts by about two seconds as you only get one attempt in ar per initiative unless you have wired reflexes vs being able to make a haking attempt every second while in vr, which is exacly my argument.

The catch is, you cant act any faster then your meat body...

Now if you go full cyborg replaceent (when rules allow) Rig your mecha all you want


The CLOSEST I allow this is I actually remove the -6 perception penalty for VR (to the meat body), since the best I can figure this does NOT apply if rigging a drone while in VR even if doing other things at same time (though cant make action in seperate nodes). In effect I do allow a Rigger to 'RIG' himself in the sense of watching in a window whats going on with his drone (himself) even if also focusing on other nodes/connections.


From what I can read it is perfecty acceptable to:

1) Jump into Drone A
2) Be hacking (in VR) Stuffer Shack

While you are in VR, you arent taking the -6 perception check to notice things with the Drone.

Likewise I would still allow you to make the perception check on your meat body the exactly the same way (though the 'connection' to your meat body counts as a subscription to the limit you can maintain since you are actively keep a feed up from it).

VR gives little enough of AR, that the 'health' risk is more then enough (and they addiction factor if GM choses) to offset the extra dice (for HIT), that I do not feel the need to stick the additional -6 perception check into it also.

So basically VR + 2 dice (if hot) and fixed IPs at the cost of increase damage (and possible addiction).

AR = Safer (far less ways to get 'damaged') IPs based off meat body.

Perception is the same. (often will get hit with the 'distracted' unless your are focusingon the node you are making the perception roll) but AR/VR does not make a difference. (and NOTE: The meat body perception action is NOT a Matrix Action so the +2 dice from Hot Sim does not apply).


A slight edge for those wishign to run Hot SIM (as opposed to cyber/bio/adepted speed junky), elemintating one of the more painful (but from system standpoint does seem it should apply (To me) penalties.

Note: I dont encourage and actively work at discouraging 'always' running in hot sim , even if no baddied 'attacking' Dump shock becomes more of an issue, wihen something causes enough background to jam. (especially in places like barrens where signal is sketchy at best) and/or really begin to look at addiction rules if player is running Hot Sim VR just to go walk to the store while checking their email.

Rigging yourself isnt legal until/unless 'Rigger Adaptaion' is a piece of cyberware you can buy.

Now if you GM allows you to buy and wire into yourself the 'Rigger Adpation" modification for vehicles then you are subject to being controlled wirelessly or via direct cable.

The human body is not a 'drone' and cant be rigged. Now POSSIBLY if you have skillwires that might be the 'equivilant' of rigger adapataion, but probably still not quite enough.


As to the damage feedback. I dont see mine a requiring 'jumping' in so much (since you already are), but more just the same way your persona can be in 12 nodes at once (while you can only take an action in a node during a given phase, you are not at any penalty.

I dont see your body, being any difference then a drone, a node, or other 'window' you have open in your mind you are recieving feeds from. (Plus Hot SIM really needs love to me to make it worth it over AR+ IP boosts)



Now if somehow you have a rigger adapation kit on your body and you actually 'Rig' your body.

Your are correct you would be taking Damage + 1/2damage (stun) any time you got hit. (If running Hot SIM)

It wouldnt be a loop, since Drones cant take stun, the 'stun' daamge YOU take couldnt overflow to you via the Hot SIM.

Also this shouldnt 'kill' you though it could seriously up the pain, since for the 'Drone' to take damage (by the rules) it has to be physical and the 'overflow' to you is stun.

But until/unless you see a character with a 'rigger adapation' kit they cant be rigged. (and while such a device exists for vehicles/drones there is at present no such device listed for critters)

se essentially, if you can find a way for the body to not have any muscle movement while hacking in full vr(thats not very dificual) then all you need is a very complex anthroform drone system build in to your body.

Rigging allows you to overcome the physical middle man when piloting a vehicle. Instead of thought, muscle drive. its Muscle then drive.
Rigging does not increase the maximum capibility of a vehicle. Adding the black box to a vespa won't double its maximum speed or triple its handling.

If you rigged your own body you aren't cutting out any middle man. Its still thought muscle. At worst it be slower at best it be the same speed.

Rigging makes you the brain of the machine allowing you to control the vehicle as if it was your own body. So rigging your own body would DO NOTHING.

except give you extra initiative passes

were still debating, whenever i bring up something thats contraversial we will discuss it and as long as said thing isnt just nerfed then its ok. in this case, i think im going to remind him that while i am rigging my own body, i would take damage from feedback as if i were piloting a drone, in addition to having to make pilot anthroform checks to do something simple like climbing a ladder. at which point he will agree that it isnt just a nerf thing to do. so basicly ill be taking damage twice (once on my body then from biofeedback) in order to be able to move and hack at the same time.

Yes I don't really see how rigging your own body would provide improved speeds. You'd still be using the same nervous system to run it. To improve the speeds you'd need some sort of alternative control over your muscles and sensory input. That's pretty much what wired reflexes do.

The only improvement I could think of would be using software to help control your body or to control your body full stop while your consciousness is busy elsewhere.

im trying to not have to spend a massive amount of essence for wired reflexes. besides im trying to build a hacker that has a full borg body and is basicly a tank so that i can do runs "in the meat" and not get anihlated. plus i am using a skinlink, so im thinking that if we have some kinda badass security drone like the one from robocop then i can just runn up to him and grab him and summaraly hack him without having to search for a node because i have a direct connection thru the skin link.

also, i didnt put any points into body or agility so that i could upgrade them with cyberware when i go full borg. hence, needing all the essence i can get.

The skin link would only connect you to another skinlink. ED-209 won't have hack me here pads installed on it's body anywhere, you'd still have to plug in or search the node.

well, i dont know that anyone has adressed exactly what a skinling can or cannot access, also, as far as hacking the drone goes, anything on the drone that is connected to the main processing unit could in theory be used to hack into it, including limbs, weapons, and cameras in the same way that you can hack into someones pan though their smargun link

Fortune--In general, I'd say you are correct, but I can come up with a few scenarios where you would hack the smartlink and ride the signal into the PAN.

Ah, ok. I suck at all this newfangled tech stuff.

Um, not to rain on your parade or anything, but under the description of Skinlink, it says that the device is adapted to send & receive data using the electrical field of meta-human skin. So the way I read it, the fact that it has to be adapted to receive such data as well means it can only talk to other Skinlink capable devices without going Wireless.

Although if someone could explain exactly how a Skinlink could connect with a non-Skinlinked device I'm open to changing my mind, but I'm fairly sure that if it was meant to be used in the way you suggested it would have been clearly stated and cost alot more then 50Y.

the thing is that every divice that you want to recive or send info with the skinlink has to be equiped with a skinlink. thats where the balence is, which means that every divice conected with the skinlink is connected to every other divice as well, which means no separate networks(a hackers dream). of course that is just the divices on you, which means that if someone else has a skinlink netowrk, then you can connect to all of their divice at the same time by shaking their hand. summaraly, if you try to use the skinlink on anything else, all the stuff on the skinlink is now connected to that divice, so you gotta be carefull about what you use it on.

im not saying that i want to be able to ram thing or any of that other stuff, and because you cant use your body to do that normaly you shouldnt be able to just because your rigging it. im just saying that because cyberware is efectively just robotic arms and legs that you could efectively be in a captains chair situation with cyberware. however, your cybered body would have to be fully cyber in order to use weapons or have articulated mounts. in the case that you only had minimal cyberware the required ware would be a torso and two full legs. with would only allow you to move around, and not very briskly at that. im not arguing that you can become some ultra robo man by rigging your self, but appearently a lot of people seem to think that im trying ot make rigging yourself better than it should be.

ok, so here's another suggestion which is more balanced than letting someone rig their own body for 3 IPs, imo...

get a bloody wheelchair. assuming it doesn't start out electronic, you should be able to rip apart a dodge scoot and use the parts to make it electronic, and to give it a pilot rating. from a game perspective, i would make it cost as much as a dodge scoot, in fact, and maybe even have identical stats.

presto, you have mobility, some limited protection (you could always weld on some more if you feel so inclined), probably the ability to handle stairs (you'll likely have to physically pick it up and move it if you're climbing fences, walls, etc... which, if the team mage knows levitate, is easy). later on, if you want, you could give it rigger adaptation, even mount a weapon on it.

there you go, a cheap solution to your problem. 3,000 for the scoot, 2,500 for the rigger adaptation (optional), 2,500 for a weapon mount (optional), plus the cost of the weapon (which you were presumably going to buy anyways).

if you want a more 'rugged' model, you could use the yamaha growler as the basis for the concept; you can't tell me an off-road vehicle is incapable of handling stairs, it has more armor, better speed/acceleration, and can actually hold two weapon mounts, if you so choose.

heck, you may even be able to convince your GM to allow you to modify a doberman or steel lynx to have a sort of wheelchair-like seat on it somewhat recessed into the body, though this would presumably cost a little more.

i kinda figured someone would suggest that eventually. so my response would have to be that only a complete moron would ride a vehicle into a building with narrow halls and doors, and modifying a "wheel chair" aint much better becuase is takes away from the stelth factor(every tried ducking behind a desk while attached to a chair.
what im suggesting for rigging your body isnt broken at all, there are negative to doing it. you have to be able to pilot yourself, you take damage twice when you get hit, you have to have weapons that your going to use attached yo your cyberlimbs, you can only do things that you would normaly be able to do, and you have to have certain limbs or it wont work at all(imagine not haveing a cybertorso and two cyberlegs, the legs would probubly rip themselves off the body). its not broken

so back to adressing the reason you dont need wired reflexes for added initiative passes while haveing a full cybered body
1. wired reflexes cannot enhance the reaction of machines. because wired reflexes places neural boosters all over the body and adrenal stimulators as well, these are things that cyber limbs dont have or need. the limb goes as fast as you want it to go, within limitations(you cant have legs that run faster than you can retain your balance. wired reflexes make your impulses faster, and what can possibly be faster than acual wires.
2. wired reflexes are bodyware, which cannot be placed in cyberware.
3. wired reflexes cost massive amounts of essence and you would only have one point remaining if you bought them while trying to get cyberware.

if anything i say that using wired reflexes in combination with ar is broken. because is summuses a person could possibly hack faster in ar than in hotsim vr.

what im saying is that when you add a skinlink to a devise it becomes connected to a pan that is your skin. that being said, those devises are then linked. in that post i wasnt argueing what a skinlink can or cannot access. and common, you can rules lawer that, because its like telling joe shadowrunner

joe: ok, ill plug my datajack into the comlink on the targets desk.
GM: ohh, sorry, you dont have the right size cable.
joe: what do you mean, i have a datajack so all i need is a fibreoptic cable.
GM: sorry, the rules dont say that your datajack comes with all the cables and this one has a very special connection cable size.
joe: that doesnt make any sense.
GM: well the rules dont specify so your just going to have to start carrying a million cables around with you.
Joe: GAH. (punches gm in the face).

bottom line is that we need to start thinking about the technology of the future not of today.
people argue that the book says that a skinlink allows a divise to send and recieve data from the stuff on the skin, it doesnt say that it can only communicate with other skinlink divices. i think that that would be a pretty big deal if it was the case.

and please would people stop trying to argue that using wiredreflexes in hacking with ar is as fast or faster than hacking in hotsim vr. it just doesnt work, and is horibly broken if the rules say you can. there is no way that you can type as fast as you can think. and under probing a target(and example of hacking) it says that the interval for making a check is one hour in vr and one day in ar, which is a dead on example on the difference in hacking between ar and vr.

And what I'm saying is that there isn't any reason why you couldn't set up multiple PANs, some using Skinlink and some using Wireless. Although I agree that a Skinlink device could still use 'Wireless Mode', doing so would be kind-of pointless as it would open up your Skinlink PAN to hacking attempts.

Also, how are you going to find a Skinlink PAN running in Hidden Mode during a brief handshake? After all, if I'm going to pay the extra money for an extra Commlink and Skinlink(s) to make my primary security devices (My gun(s), smartlink, and any Cyberware that for whatever reason I want to be able to talk with to PAN.) more secure against hacking, I'm not going to leave it in any other Mode then Passive or connect them to anything transmitting Wireless without a very good reason and then only for the briefest possible time.

Of course, I'd also be running a second PAN using Wireless for the devices that needed it in order to work and get along in polite society, but it would in no way be connected to my more secure Skinlinked PAN.

As for the Datajack and connection size, I agree with you that 99.99999% of all 2050+ devices use an Universal Datajack Connection, but I can see someone being paranoid enough to custom order an off-breed connector size simply to make it that much harder to connect to his/her data, although in your example Joe should have been smart enough to realize that such rare cases are one of the reasons he trained his Hardware skill in the first place and if a Decker worthe his salt doesn't have that skill or access to someone that does, then he/she deserves to fail.

Oh, as for Wired Reflexes and AR Hacking, I fully agree with you that they should not work together, but sadly they do according to RAW.

Of course, I also house-rule that Mages can only cast once per Combat Turn no matter how many IPs they have as well.

no. it's an extra that you add on per device. you put a skinlink on your smartlinked gun and your goggles so that your gun and goggles can talk to each other through the electrical field on your skin. you don't put a skinlink on you, you place it into a device, which device then becomes able to use the electrical field around your skin as if it were a cable connecting to all other devices in contact with your skin that are equipped with a skinlink modification.

Although you could Skinlink your Datajack if you chose, which would give you non-wireless control over other Skinlinked devices in your PAN.

As for the whole rigged body issue....

It doesn't give you any changes to your initiative, that comes from reaction enhancements. ( IE why the rigger premade comes with reaction enhancers.)

The only bonus that rigging gives is for vehicle tests. ( Pg 159 Driving with Augmented or Virtual Reality )

Besides the whole point is to provide the rigger with telepresense. ( IE remote control.)

You'd be better off controlling an anthropomorphic drone then rigging your own body.

Although personally I have decided that Rigging your own body is cheese, (Especially considering that the reason he wants it to provide extra IPs is because his Physical Stats are very low and he wants to spend his Essence raising them instead, well plus he wants to hack in Full VR while acting in the Meat without that hefty dice loss without the hassles of using an actual Drone that has been modified to carry him as well.) one of the 'advantages' of doing so would be that the Rigger wouldn't have to worry about losing connection when running against a Shielded area or losing control through Spoofing/Hacking.

uh, what "hefty" dice loss are you talkin about. i wasnt aware that there where any.

also, bodyware(reaction enhacers) dont give you bonus initiative passes while in full vr. but being in hotsim vr does, so when you rig a drone you get those extra initiative passes from being in full vr. which means you will only get a total of three and you cant get any more then three while in hotsim vr.

as per the balencing of rigging your own body, i have already stated the ups and downs that make it a balenced rule.

you have to be able to pilot yourself, you take damage twice when you get hit, you have to have weapons that your going to use attached yo your cyberlimbs, you can only do things that you would normaly be able to do, and you have to have certain limbs or it wont work at all(imagine not haveing a cybertorso and two cyberlegs, the legs would probubly rip themselves off the body).

now please feel free to tell me how that is unbalenced.

You're not going to get extra IP from rigging your own body, it's already been explained but I'll do it again.

Manually driving works as follows: Brain reacts to stimuli provided by the senses by telling the muscles to manipulate the steering wheel, gas, brakes, etc to move the vehicle. So the chain of interface is senses, brain, muscles, vehicle.

Rigging works as follow: The brain reacts to stimuli provided by the sensors by telling the vehicle to move. You are dropping the brain to muscle communication and the muslce to vehicle interface thereby expediting the process of controlling the vehicle. Chain of interface is sensors, brain, vehicle.

So here's how your body works: senses provide stimuli to the brain which tells the muscles to move. That's senses, brain, muscles.

Rigging would be your senses provide stimuli to yuor brain which tells your muscles to move. That's senses, brain, cyberware.

Rigging allows you to operate a vehicle or drone as if it were your own body, rigging your body is redundant and silly. I'm not trying to be hostile, it's just that no one is buying it.