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SL James
QUOTE (CD @ 41)
How do they do it? Three words: P—freaking—R. The Azzies have an amazing Public Relations machine. All the megacorps run morally questionable secret operations, but only Aztechnology seems to repeatedly survive the exposure of them unscathed. Most non-shadow denizens don't even understand the Big Ac connection to Aztlan (more on that later), and those who do don't appear to care. This makes Aztechnology dangerous because it can get away with murder (literally); the average consumer will buy Aztech products anyway. Whether you consider it brand loyalty, spin doctoring or consumer brainwashing, Aztechnology has mastered it.


QUOTE
>New to this, aren't ya? Check this: When those grisly trid shots were released in the CAS and UCAS that implicated Aztechnology soldiers as responsible for the Campeche massacre, the Azzies' market share in those countries rose slightly. The same thing happened when the news broke in Europe. Sad though it is, Aztechnology's PR people have the general public well in hand.
> Ranger

> Did you ever notice that when some bad stink about some Aztechnology operation hits the news, their subsidiaries suddenly unleash a media blitz about some great new and improved products? The standard consumer retains the bad news for about five seconds, then forgets all about it.
> Garbonzo Bean
mfb
ah. we were both right.
Fortune
QUOTE (mfb)
ah. we were both right.

Works for me. biggrin.gif

And thanks, James.
SL James
No problem.
Sphynx
Ok, here's my current projects and ideas.

The Wireless stuff which I've posted the pdf rules for, no comments so I assume, no objections?

Magic Build Point System which will include some changes from the current list of rules.

Psionics. Breaking them down into 3 categories for ClairSentients, Telekinetics, and Telepaths, with the following rules.
  • ClairSentients cost 2BP and can cast only Detection Spells. Their ThoughtForms replace Psychokinesis with Concealability. Targets receive no Resistance Roll unless they are aware that the ClairSentient is attempting a Detection spell on them.
  • Telekinetic cost 2BP and can cast only Telekinetic Manipulation spells. They reduce Target Modifiers for Sustaining a Telekinetic Manipulation spell by 2, which is compatable with Focused Concentration. This reduces ONLY the target modifier, not the target number. Means that a Telekinetic with Focused Concentration can sustain 2 spells without any negative modifier to their TNs.
  • Telepaths cost 2BP and can cast only Control Manipulation spells. Their ThoughtForms replace Psychokinesis with Confusion and Fear. They receive -1 to the Drain Level of Control Manipulation spells.
Also working on rules for Greater Thought Forms and other MetaPhysical Techniques from Initiating. Including more info on the Gestalt effect.

Nordic Runes: No real thoughts yet.

Half-Races: No real thoughts yet.

MFB: If you don't mind, in addition to you working out and testing the Decking options some, would you mind checking into ways to 'Hack' the wireless stuff I posted in my PDF?

Sir Psycho: I assume you're working on the Edges/Flaws?
Sphynx
Half-Race ideas.....

I'm thinking currently of allowing 4 half races (in order to avoid the confussion of dwarf-orcs, etc). I want it simple so the choice is purely for theme not numbers. Initial idea is:

5BP for a HalfRace, you gain the visual bonus (either Thermographic or LowLight) and half (rounded down) of the bonuses. So, a HalfElf would have LowLight and +1 Charisma, and a TallDwarf would have +1 Strength and Thermographic. Initial thought was also no negative attributes. Opinions?

Maybe allow the purchase of up to 2 HalfRaces? So an Elven Dwarf would get +1 Charisma, +1 Strength, and both visions? Too much for the 10BP?
Sphynx
One Character Sheet down (subject to change depending on rule changes)

Telekineticist

The description was too spur of the moment and sucks majorly (not to mention a couple of typos), it'll be completely rewritten at some point.
Sphynx
Well, I'm assuming from the lack of input this project has become a solo-project. No biggie, I plan to write 1 page per day in my spare time. Means about 6 months total plus the time to do some graphics. Anyhows, on the chance anyone's keeping up on things, I'm working on the Magic Game Information right now. I'll post on the main board for ideas. I think people forget (or ignore) the fact that this sub-forum is here. nyahnyah.gif
Sir_Psycho
I'm still interested, and willing to help. In some spare time I've been trying to get y head around flaws/rules for addiction (specifically cigarettes), and so far it's leaning towards different amounts of points for how many packs a day/week you're doing, and small modifiers to TN's when you don't have a drag in a while, although I'm still having trouble.

I was also thinking of aa magic edge similar to cracker/choker for matrix, giving a 1+ dice or -1 target number for spells of a specific type (not stackable with totem bonuses/disadvantages), although it might be too powerful. Also, I wouldn't mind a (sort of) magic version of Natural Hardening, giving +1 dice for drain resistance tests. Just putting it out there.

As for opinions, I'll admit half-races makes me feel quite squeamish though.

Sphynx
Other possible Edges/Flaws: One Eye (rules are already out there for the Cyclopi), Dual Natured, Weapons Expert (reduce penalty for defaulting?), etc.

As for your current ideas, +1 Dice is less abuseable than -1TN for casting spells (I see no reason for it to not stack with other modifiers, but should only work for 'casting', not 'drain'), and I like the magical hardening idea as well (though the names are obviously a work-in-progress nyahnyah.gif)
Sir_Psycho
I'm really thinking of Shamans here, because if you give a wolf Shaman the edge to combat spells, they've just became a Fenrir shaman with 2+ to detection. So yeah I like -TN better, and that I would feel more comfortable giving to Shamans.
Sphynx
Considering most spell-throwers tend to roll about 10 dice to cast, a -1TN is roughly the equivalent of +2 successes. +2 dice on the other hand is only about 50% likely to gain +1 success. For the sake of 'balance', nothing we add in this book should make it a requirement for a min-maxxed character. If we have an unbalanced book, people aren't going to accept it in their games.

As for the half-races, I'm half-way in agreeance with you. Obviously an Troll-Dwarf combo could just be nuts. Orcs are already the rough equivalent between Troll and Human, so what do you think of only having 3 half races? Half-Elf, Half-Dwarf, and Half-Orc? Give them all visual bonuses and a simple +1 to a single attribute? (Charisma, Strength, and Body respectively)....
Kagetenshi
Why include half-races, out of interest?

~J
Sphynx
Well, the idea came up back when we were allowed to Surge. We had a guy 'surge' into a Half-Elf, and why not? SRComp already lets' you use metavariants, and that's all it really is. And honestly, Half-Elves (or half-anythings) fit more into theme than blue-furries...

Basically, just ideas we threw around at some point are what I am focusing my books on. That was just one of the first ones I remembered throwing around.
Kyoto Kid
...the basic concept of SURGE has opened the door for some more than just genetic mutations. In my campaign setting there is a new form of "awakening" that I am experimenting with. Won't say what it is for now since I will be doing a re-run of the scenario in which it appears.
nezumi
I was talking with my wife about SR3R and SOTA65 and she said she would love to help, specifically by contributing art. She's a professional freelance web visual graphics design artist person fellow who draws pictures. I told her that guns are a popular thing, and even though they aren't her preferred style, she'd be happy to do her own research, sketch stuff up and, of course, get feedback. However, anything else people feel as being valid (racial profiles, vehicles, dragons, whatever) she'll go for. All she has to know is what needs to be done. Of course, she is limited in how much she can do, since it takes a few hours to do a complete picture.

She's put some sketches up here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/11139177@N00/

(Yes, there are pictures of me too. I'm sure everyone will be surprised to see I'm not really a 6'11", 240lb troll named Brock.)

So people are aware, some of the pictures have b00b13s and may not be appropriate for work, unless your boss is a guy and can also appreciate a good b00b13 when he sees one.

So yes, if people have a suggestion on what she should draw, go ahead and give it. If people decide the drawing is not up to snuff, you can not include it or she can fix it given solid criticism.
Sir_Psycho
I definately think SOTA65 should include boobies.
Sphynx
Personally, I'd be more interested, if she can, in seeing art for the various 'gear' selections. Wireless Datajack, CommLinks, ImageGlasses or even Monocles (squarish and further away from the eye than glasses), maybe even what an External Transducer looks like (and yes, definitely a CredStick too nyahnyah.gif)
nezumi
She says that'd be cool. I grabbed some comments people wrote on page 2 of this thread.

Wireless datajack - should be pretty obvious. Does it include a standard datajack too?
Commlinks - like in SR4, but less advanced, right?
Imageglasses and monocle - looks like it sounds like, right?
External transducer - I assume this the non-cyber version of the transducer, so it would hook on somewhere around the jaw?
Commlink - nyahnyah.gif I'll see if SR3R changes the rules at all first ;P

Overall she says she'd be happy to do it.

She also suggested something else of interest, the idea of taking the nanobots you use to install a datajack and get similar nanobots that would rewire the brain or hardware to do crazy stuff. You could introduce the nanobots through the food supply or some such.

Also she asked if the wireless datajack will double as the internal radio or phone hardware already available?
Sphynx
Wireless Datajack, in 2065 it should look a bit like a Wireless for a modern-day PC. A cell-phone antenae sticking out of the head sort of deal. The inside part looking like a usb, but round instead of rectangle (at least in my opinion, artist opinions are oft better).

CommLinks, I think they'd look a bit like a large cellphone, or forearm computer. Bigger than an IPod, and thought put into transportability.

Image Glasses/Monocle, yepers.

External Transducer. No idea. It still requires a Datajack to use, so obviously a wire or antenae for the new Wireless Era. BlueTooth head-set with an antenae? Again, artist concepts are usually bettter than the ideas thrown at them.

CredStick, of course, in a wireless setting, that might change completely. After all, who needs a cred stick when you're transmitting wireless info all the time? Basically, you're transmitting your own IP address to everyone, and can now, via a datajack or the commlink, verify expenditures from your back account. No 'hard' credsticks needed really. Exceptions being for illegal services of course. I think they should look like USB Mem Sticks with a digitalish display of their 'worth'. So, you'd hand someone a stick with a display showing it's holding 5,000 nuyen.gif Wouldn't need it for any other purpose that I can think of once a person goes Wireless....
ElFenrir
QUOTE
Also, something I've been wanting to see for awhile, some pre-fab characters like in the original SR3 book, but using gear and ideas from all the books (Changeling, Bioware, Etc)


During the winter months, i tend to have a lot of free time on my hands. I like this idea, and i'd be willing to attempt to crank out some archetypes. I read thru the thread, not sure if you want to use full Build Point for this, Priority, Sum to 10, BeCKS, all or some of the above, but i'd be willing to take a gander at this. I have some classic ideas in my head for prefabs, and also some not so classic ideas that are a bit out there, but you never know. I had them on my old personal site, but i closed this years ago. I still have some around though.

Again, cool ideas going on here. But hit me back if youre interested in seeing some prefabs. I could always type them up and send them or whatnot, or post them, or whatever. I need some project to get me creative again and keep me away from TBC. wink.gif
Sphynx
As stated ElFenrir, the Archetypes should all include at least some rule from this project, such as my posted Archetype (Half-Elf Telekinetic Psionicist) that I did on 125BP. If you can do that, the layout should be exactly like in the books. Ie JPGs with full character image, black side and bottom, stats on side, description on bottom.
ElFenrir
Gotcha. Well, i shall see what i can come up with on paper first, then hit the Photoshop. grinbig.gif Finding pictures to match these might be interesting. Well, some good artists here there are...smile.gif
Sir_Psycho
I did some thinking and rolling on those Magic drain resistance edges, and decided it was best to divide them into:

(work-in-progress names)
Mana hardening - 3 points.
Characters with Mana Hardening are more resistant to Sorcery drain. Mana Hardening provides 1 additional die for Sorcery Drain resistance tests.

Spirit Hardening - 3 points
Characters with Spirit Hardening have the same extra die as those with Mana Hardening, except that it applies to Conjuring drain resistance tests instead.

Characters may not take both Mana Hardening and Spirit Hardening.
Sphynx
I like both, but I think maybe 2 points. I personally wouldn't buy them for 3 points. Bonus Attribute is 2BP, part-time attribute for 3 seems rough. For 3 points, if you want to keep the value, maybe offer an Astral Armour value of 1 against either Spells or Spirit attacks (dependant on the hardening you have of course).
nezumi
Something I was considering...

CP2020 (and really, most other cyberpunk games) have external frames or power armor. At the lowest level, this is just an aluminum frame the person wears, outfitted with gyros and motors to help lift objects he otherwise wouldn't be able to move (we've seen this IRL with the walker leg supports they made for army troops a few years back). At the upper level, it's 9 feet of hardened vehicle armor that fills in the role between troop and vehicles.

I was considering this last night and thought I'd be willing to make up rules for it. The problem is neither SR3 or SR4 (officially) has them, so obviously it would be moving well outside of established canon.

Would you like me to write up a few pages on this? Or is it better nixed?
Jrayjoker
QUOTE (nezumi)
Something I was considering...

CP2020 (and really, most other cyberpunk games) have external frames or power armor. At the lowest level, this is just an aluminum frame the person wears, outfitted with gyros and motors to help lift objects he otherwise wouldn't be able to move (we've seen this IRL with the walker leg supports they made for army troops a few years back). At the upper level, it's 9 feet of hardened vehicle armor that fills in the role between troop and vehicles.

I was considering this last night and thought I'd be willing to make up rules for it. The problem is neither SR3 or SR4 (officially) has them, so obviously it would be moving well outside of established canon.

Would you like me to write up a few pages on this? Or is it better nixed?

I know someone who would simultaneously drool, wet themselves, and have an "O" if you were to take the time to make rules and let him playtest them.
Kagetenshi
This is the internet. You can say "orgasm" here.

~J
Sphynx
Hmmm, Power Armour. I'm completely ok with the idea, but it should be written in a manner that discourages it for "shadowruns". Ie: No stealth rolls while wearing it, base TN of 4 to detect you if you're trying to be stealthy.

It doesn't go against Shadowrun concepts, but is something you expect the resistance to wear, not the runners. Also, I think it should be clearly stated that the Strength bonus is for lifting only, and treat it as Bone Lacing for using in Close Combat. However, those are just ideas and opinions. It doesn't have to be written like that for me to add it, those are just how I'd do it.
Kagetenshi
IMO it's a bad idea to have a "no stealth rolls while wearing" rule. Just give it appropriate negative modifiers to stealth tests (or bonuses to perception tests to detect, as desired).

~J
Sphynx
Except Stealth is Open Ended. Maybe put a Threshold on the Open Ended test... Ie: You need to exceed the Perception test with more than 1 of your rolls....
nezumi
I was considering this. There would be several factors that come into play:

The external frame and power armor would decrease your overall speed. This limits your maximum running speed as well as your initiative. A legs-only frame only effects your running speed. This would not have any effect on astral or matrix initiative, obviously.

The larger frames and power suits would make noise. While the character can still be stealthy, anyone around them has to make a roll against a flat TN to hear the suit. So yeah, he might not be able to find you, but the constant "pffssshhhh pfffsshhhh" of pneumatics as you move tells him someone is there.

Much like the gyro suit, both frames give penalties in melee combat and to certain tests (like escape artist and athletics). Of course, if you're in a power armor suit, you're generally not especially worried about someone hitting you with a club. It's got vehicle armor.

All of these will have very high availability and cost. They're basically meant only for the military to tote around very heavy weapons. The external frames might possibly be available for cargo loading, but the only real advantage they'd have for a runner is they can carry out more loot and perhaps gyro-stabilization. It would largely only apply strength bonuses to non-melee strength tests (and we all know how many of those there are). So they'd be useful in some cases, but they wouldn't be uber, and it would help those people who feel there should be mech suits, but who would want to make them super powerful.
Sir_Psycho
Shouldn't they have a strength bonus? I want to crush some-one's face with piston-enhanced punches! Although obviously we don't want this to be crazy gundam style with rocket-boosters and such.

Actually, should we have rocket packs in SOTA65? That would b hilarious, and I'm sure they'd have the technology to make them work better than they do now, and be slightly more compact.
Sphynx
Sir_Psycho, that's the difference between Stun and Physical. wink.gif

Nezumi, sounds good.
Sphynx
BTW, for anyone doing art for the book, the page dimensions are the same as the books. This is a change from earlier where I started at 1024px wide.

Full pages are done 215mm wide, 280mm high, or 2539px x 3307px. Images should take that into consideration. Every page is written as a PSD so editting can be done later, and so it's easier to wrap words around non-square images without an inline setting. There are over 20 pages done on the book, pre-art. I imagine that number will get alot higher especially once we add art. Text is written in Francis font except for headers which are done in, I believe, Futura (I'll have to double check).

I never got comments from anyone on some of the ideas, primarily (my biggest concern since I don't want to seem to favor my favorite type of character) Psionicist. I assume there were no objections over the Magic BP since the core-thread had nothing but compliments from the days back when Doc Funkenstein started it. The Magic chapter is nearly completed.

I've opted to forego the Norse Magic idea, maybe next year in the 2066 edition. The Wireless stuff needs some serious discussion especially from a 'hacker' point of view. I think mjb has ironed out his Tracker/Logger idea for the Hackers chapter, just needs a clean writing. Advanced Character Generation with more Edges/Flaws and Half-Races/Metatypes wil be the next area I work on more seriously.
Sphynx
BTW, if you're still interested in leaving comments, I've posted up the psd's for the first few pages of the Psychic on my site:

Page 1
Page 2
Page 3

I won't promise that any comment suggested will be added, it's got to be in-theme and not anti-book (Ie: No comments about how gay psychic rules are nyahnyah.gif), but I will do my best.

You think I should open a Comments thread for this? Or post here?
nezumi
I've begun doing some work, haven't finished. I plan on reviewing and adding a fourth suit, a purely industrial one like what we saw in the movie Aliens. As you can tell, even though they will be useful, none of them are really appropriate for Shadowruns. If you are using one, you probably are already using security armor and MMGs anyway, so it shouldn't seriously hurt your game.


[ Spoiler ]


Thoughts? I'll leave the Shadowtalk names and formatting to some other poor fool nyahnyah.gif
Sphynx
Initially, every thing seems cool. Gimme 24 hours to mull over it though.
nezumi
I've finished my fourth frame. Unfortunately, it's taken a lot more space to write out than I hoped (the previous three were one page each). This, of course, is the first draft. I'm going to put them all away and read over them again next week to straighten them out, but I'd like to hear your comments first.

[ Spoiler ]
Pendaric
I have a concept matrix local that I use in my game. It's orginal ish but not exactly a sota piece as it is a matrix 'place'. Would you be interested?
Sphynx
I really like the Mule. Useful for coming in from under. Might consider adding in a limited scuba option to the Mule (working from underwater), which would, of course, require Scuba rolls. Is your wife working on schematic drawings for these?

Pendaric: I'll look at anything of course, if it's laid out in a professional manner.
Sir_Psycho
QUOTE (nezumi)
I've finished my fourth frame. Unfortunately, it's taken a lot more space to write out than I hoped (the previous three were one page each). This, of course, is the first draft. I'm going to put them all away and read over them again next week to straighten them out, but I'd like to hear your comments first.

[ Spoiler ]

Woah I'd tone down the damage for the Torch and drill. 14M is very hard. It would be fairly easy to get as far off a drill as needed to shrug it off. I understand it would be painful, but I resent that it would be easier to shrug off than a large caliber bullet.

Also, maybe the torch could have the damage toned down as well, but roll to cause ignition of flammable objects.
nezumi
QUOTE (Sphynx)
I really like the Mule. Useful for coming in from under. Might consider adding in a limited scuba option to the Mule (working from underwater), which would, of course, require Scuba rolls. Is your wife working on schematic drawings for these?

A SCUBA option... That would be interesting... I guess that'd be like a JIM suit then?

She's sort of wandered off to do some other artsy stuff for a bit and I'm afraid to ask her about SOTA65 since she's running on about four hours of sleep. She should be finishing up her other project this week though, so I'll poke her then.


QUOTE
Woah I'd tone down the damage for the Torch and drill. 14M is very hard. It would be fairly easy to get as far off a drill as needed to shrug it off. I understand it would be painful, but I resent that it would be easier to shrug off than a large caliber bullet.


Keep in mind, it's a five foot long, 60 pound drill meant for drilling through hardened material. Even using the "barrier ratings halved" rule I included, that means the drill, at minimum, needs a power of 8 (hardened materials have a rating of 32, divide by four). Would you like to expand on why the current value (10M) upsets you?

The torch I'm definitely open on. I don't know anything about welding. 12S might be high, but like I said, I have no idea.

Someone else pointed out that I neglected to put what skill is required to drive the Goliath *forehead smack* and asked about how one would make weapon hands for the Mule.
Pendaric
Two things I posted previously:
link
meta magic technique
Sphynx
Pendaric, I'd be interested in adding both. I think they're both good ideas, tomorrow when I have more time I'll address each one in their own thread. Assuming we agree for the most part on everything, all i need is your permission to put them in the book.
nezumi
QUOTE (Sphynx)
Ok, here's my current projects and ideas. 

The Wireless stuff which I've posted the pdf rules for, no comments so I assume, no objections?

Magic Build Point System which will include some changes from the current list of rules.

Psionics.  Breaking them down into 3 categories for ClairSentients, Telekinetics, and Telepaths, with the following rules.

  • ClairSentients cost 2BP and can cast only Detection Spells.  Their ThoughtForms replace Psychokinesis with Concealability.  Targets receive no Resistance Roll unless they are aware that the ClairSentient is attempting a Detection spell on them.
  • Telekinetic cost 2BP and can cast only Telekinetic Manipulation spells.  They reduce Target Modifiers for Sustaining a Telekinetic Manipulation spell by 2, which is compatable with Focused Concentration.  This reduces ONLY the target modifier, not the target number.  Means that a Telekinetic with Focused Concentration can sustain 2 spells without any negative modifier to their TNs.
  • Telepaths cost 2BP and can cast only Control Manipulation spells.  Their ThoughtForms replace Psychokinesis with Confusion and Fear.  They receive -1 to the Drain Level of Control Manipulation spells.
A

I was going to comment on the 2 BP thing, then read your Magic tradition creation rules, which I assume is what this is referring to.

"They reduce Target Modifiers for Sustaining a Telekinetic Manipulation spell by 2,"

The modifier for sustaining a manipulation already is 2. So they can sustain as many spells as they want for free? Not too bad a trade-off, considering how narrow telekinetic manipulations is as a category.

I wouldn't drop the Drain Level for Control Manipulations unless you make it clear that CMs are always detected by the caster. Control Manipulations are *THE* most powerful spells in the game, no question. Allowing someone to cast Control Thoughts on two or three fellows (since it's not hard to stage down 2M drain) is just asking for trouble.

With the half-races, do clarify in the rules that they aren't actually the results of an elf and a human or whatever, it's just a "lesser form" of the primary races. I think it would be interesting to throw in that say, a character was born to two human parents, but had faintly elven traits. He found that he was too elvish for humans, and too human for elves, and suffered even worse discrimination because of it.


QUOTE
Mana hardening - 3 points.
Characters with Mana Hardening are more resistant to Sorcery drain. Mana Hardening provides 1 additional die for Sorcery Drain resistance tests.

Spirit Hardening - 3 points
Characters with Spirit Hardening have the same extra die as those with Mana Hardening, except that it applies to Conjuring drain resistance tests instead.


Spirit hardening seems fine. Mana hardening I'd avoid though. We already have albino gnomes. How much do we want mages to outpace mundanes by anyway? 3 points is right at that level where I'm squeamish about it (it's kinda like toughness, except more useful), 4 points would be a little more comfortable.


Reading over your magic pdf...
"Cost: (1BP per 5 Spell Points)" I'd rewrite that 5 spell points per 1 BP

"You may purchase more than 1 tradition to follow." I'd write out the word 'one'

So let me try this out. I'm going to make a cool mage.

I spend 5 points for him to be awakened. (I assume this cannot be bought after character generation?)

I spend 5 points on a tradition (hermetic). (Is there a reason you allow multiple traditions to be bought? It seems to me that shamanism and hermeticism, for instance, are completely incompatible, and the idea of a shamanic/hermetic is ridiculous. Also, I'm guessing this isn't something I can buy after chargen, so why not just roll it into the points to be awakened in the first place?)

Hm... If I were a shape shifter, I'd only buy 2 points of magic so all my drain is physical and can be healed, but I won't do that. I'll buy 4 more points, since 5 is the optimal force for resisting drain. Can I increase this after chargen through any method other than initiation? Regardless, if I know I'm going to initiate anyway, there's no reason to blow extra points here. 4 or even 2 will be enough for now.

Adept powers: Hey cool, let me buy one of those. Instead of getting a vehicle skill, I'll spend 5 points and get the equivalent of wired reflexes for no essence cost. Oh, maybe I should spend it in astral armor, then I'll be an astral combat god.

Astral perception: Nah

Astral projection: Sure, 2 points.

Spell points: Hm... Let's stick to 5 BPs here, stick to the "standard".

Sorcery: I'll spend the 4 points, although I don't know what the "first school of magic" is for a hermetic. Clarification?

Conjuring:A bit more pricey. Why the price jump compared to sorcery? No matter, I'll spend 3 points so I can summon say... fire elementals. They're pretty cool.

So my total cost is...
29 points. Not bad. What have I traded off? My spell casting ability is normal, but I've lost a magic point in exchange for adept powers (not sure how many, there's no price, so I'll assume it's equal to my essence: 6). I can project not not perceive astrally, but I can only summon fire elementals. Now granted, this doesn't seem to match the "default" hermetic, which would costs... 34 points. An adept costs... 11? And now he can project for only 3 more points? Hrm... That seems off. A telepath in only one school is 29?


Related, what's with making magic cost 10 karma per point? Are you talking about the Magic rating? Why are you tossing out the initiation rules? Why no cap? Does this let me buy back points lost due to cyber? This bit I think is worth dropping.


I do like the modular magic idea. I like being able to make a character with potential, but no ability (yet) so he can develop it over time, but this seems a bit too modular. It's going the way of SR4, and there's a reason I don't play SR4. Some things really should be exclusive. Hermetics shouldn't be shamans, adepts shouldn't be able to astrally project, etc. I would put more limitations on what combinations of powers are allowed.
nezumi
I read over the wireless bit.

First note, don't forget to use spell check. There are a few minor misspellings that need to be tidied up. Secondly, I'd avoid the word "you" as well as the reference to "modern ipod players". None of the other source books use language like that, and I think we can benefit from holding ourselves to that standard of quality.

I'd consider splitting this up more. Generally the Game Information section refers to mechanics, and follows the colorful blurb. I don't see any reason to break this tradition. If you can write a page or two about living in the wireless world first, giving us a view of the devices and how they work, then half a page of Game Information, this will be more in-line with current books. Game information should be precise, using clear numbers for an objects weight and dimensions, as well as its price, upload speed, ACIFS rating, etc. It may be worth checking out the description of the Dataterm section of the Sprawl Survival Guide, where they write out all the functions of the trid and all the ways it can be used. They don't list the cost and dimensions for obvious reasons, but cover all the other information I'd care to know about it.

Because you're using wireless stuff, you'll need to specify where wireless technology is implemented, what kind of things it is generally used for, how the user interacts with it, and how quickly it moves. *I* understand what you're writing out because I've read SR4, but we need to write for new users who won't.
nezumi
Just so people are aware, as a GM, I do not go to the SOTA books for more powerful items for already powerful character types, nor do I go there looking for ways to make the existing ruleset simpler or more complex. The former I don't want at all because it unbalances stuff, the latter I'll look to rulebooks for (like the appropriate weapons or magic book, or SR3R). SOTA, for me, is valuable because it expands Shadowrun into areas it lacks. SOTA63 went into merc equipment, 64 went into spy equipment. So as a GM, when I come to this project, some of these ideas really excite me and some don't. Pentara's (sorry for misspelling that, if I did) new metamagic and watcher ball is very neat. It doesn't make the characters much more powerful, but it's colorful and fun. Sir Psycho's thoughts on cigs I really liked because I've always really wondered what's happened to tobacco. I hope he hasn't thought the lack of response means lack of interest. I'm waiting! Expanding the psionic rules desperately needs to be done.

I definitely feel like we need to focus on grabbing stuff that expands Shadowrun outwards, not upwards. Astral art, tobacco products, race wars and telepathy push outwards. It seems like much of the focus so far has been on magic. Could someone look more at things to help counter magical threats as well? The watcher ball I'd group in there, but are there any groups which have specialized in being anti-magic "assets"? Any new ground taken in bringing magical ability into modern technology (like with the astral camera we saw last year?) Any progress in making passive defenses stronger? We don't want to just boost magical options without boosting counter-magical options as well.

Overall though, I hope I've explained why I'll be very hesitant about some ideas and very supportive of others. The magic creation system, at it's core, I like. I have always wanted to be able to put 5BPs towards it then awaken during game play. But I don't feel like it belongs in a SOTA book. Don't throw it away, it's definitely of value! But consider whether a SOTA book is where you'd put it.
Sphynx
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"They reduce Target Modifiers for Sustaining a Telekinetic Manipulation spell by 2,"

The modifier for sustaining a manipulation already is 2.  So they can sustain as many spells as they want for free?  Not too bad a trade-off, considering how narrow telekinetic manipulations is as a category.

I wouldn't drop the Drain Level for Control Manipulations unless you make it clear that CMs are always detected by the caster.  Control Manipulations are *THE* most powerful spells in the game, no question.  Allowing someone to cast Control Thoughts on two or three fellows (since it's not hard to stage down 2M drain) is just asking for trouble. 


Telekinetic Manip: The modifier is -2, not -2 per spell. So, sustaining 2 spells while casting a 3rd would incur a -2 (-4 + -2 ).

Control Manipulations: I assume you're referring to Influence there, since that's the only spell other than Control Emotions that the target isn't aware of being affected. I think changing it to your suggestion would not only defeat the purpose of the spell, but destroy any reason to play a Telepath. You're basically giving up all other spells in order to be good at the Influence spell. Even then, changing a force 5 2S to 2M isn't that large of a difference, since anyone who wants to focus on that spell will start with 8 dice to resist drain, rarely taking a light stun from casting it.

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With the half-races, do clarify in the rules that they aren't actually the results of an elf and a human or whatever, it's just a "lesser form" of the primary races.  I think it would be interesting to throw in that say, a character was born to two human parents, but had faintly elven traits.  He found that he was too elvish for humans, and too human for elves, and suffered even worse discrimination because of it.


Good idea, but I didn't want to claim that it's not actually a result of inner-breeding, actually wanted to suggest that most 'half' race members are children of inner-bred races, but that it only increased the chances, wasn't the rsult of inner-breeding. (After all, most people that will want a half-elf character will want a human/elf parentage)

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So let me try this out.  I'm going to make a cool mage.

I spend 5 points for him to be awakened.  (I assume this cannot be bought after character generation?)
Sounds fair enough
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I spend 5 points on a tradition (hermetic). (Is there a reason you allow multiple traditions to be bought?  It seems to me that shamanism and hermeticism, for instance, are completely incompatible, and the idea of a shamanic/hermetic is ridiculous.  Also, I'm guessing this isn't something I can buy after chargen, so why not just roll it into the points to be awakened in the first place?)
Multiple Traditions was mostly for conjuring issues. For a Phoenix Shaman to summon Fire Elementals, he'd have to spend an extra 5 points to understand hermetic conjuring. For a FireHermetic to summon Spirits of the Fire, he'd have to know a but about Wuxing. And yes, I intended for it to be purchasable later.
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Hm...  If I were a shape shifter, I'd only buy 2 points of magic so all my drain is physical and can be healed, but I won't do that.  I'll buy 4 more points, since 5 is the optimal force for resisting drain.  Can I increase this after chargen through any method other than initiation?  Regardless, if I know I'm going to initiate anyway, there's no reason to blow extra points here.  4 or even 2 will be enough for now.
Yes, this can be raised to your natural maximum via Karma.
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Adept powers:  Hey cool, let me buy one of those.  Instead of getting a vehicle skill, I'll spend 5 points and get the equivalent of wired reflexes for no essence cost.  Oh, maybe I should spend it in astral armor, then I'll be an astral combat god.

It's 1BP to 'BE' an Adept. 2 additional BP per Power Point, so essence free wired reflexes cost you 10BP plus the cost of being an Adept.

(PS. I see I forgot to include Power Point costs in the pdf, will fix that asap.
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Astral perception: Nah

Astral projection:  Sure, 2 points.

Apparently I forgot to edit in the PreRequisite of Astral Perception as stated in the initial thread, again thanks. I'll add that ASAP. nyahnyah.gif Anyhows, cost of character is +12 over your calculations at this point due to my errors.
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Spell points:  Hm...  Let's stick to 5 BPs here, stick to the "standard".

Sorcery: I'll spend the 4 points, although I don't know what the "first school of magic" is for a hermetic.  Clarification?

Conjuring:A bit more pricey.  Why the price jump compared to sorcery?  No matter, I'll spend 3 points so I can summon say...  fire elementals.  They're pretty cool.
Again, a mistake on my part. Should have been 1, 2, 4 not 1, 3, 5. Will fix, now you're only at +11 instead of +12. nyahnyah.gif
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So my total cost is...
29 points.  Not bad. 
40 by the intended procedure.
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What have I traded off?  My spell casting ability is normal, but I've lost a magic point in exchange for adept powers (not sure how many, there's no price, so I'll assume it's equal to my essence: 6).  I can project not not perceive astrally, but I can only summon fire elementals.  Now granted, this doesn't seem to match the "default" hermetic, which would costs...  34 points.  An adept costs...  11?  And now he can project for only 3 more points?  Hrm...  That seems off.  A telepath in only one school is 29?

Obviously I need to clean that pdf up some.
Sphynx
Sorry for the double post, noticed I forgot to answer this question:
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Sorcery: I'll spend the 4 points, although I don't know what the "first school of magic" is for a hermetic.  Clarification?

Not First school. One school of magic, and should be clariffied to 1 Category of Magic. My mistake.
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