The main problem I have with Technomancers is that they are trying to do the exact same thing as Hackers. You have one character type trying to replace another.
What if we changed the focus of the Technomancer to change their role? Technomancers can do all that nifty stuff with Wifi so let's make that instead of regular hacking the point.
Make it easy for them to get into commlinks and car computers and drones. Let them put up AR illusions and alter ads at will. Make them great at screwing around with the Wifi and AR.
They become an illusionist in an AR world and not focus them on the traditional hacking at all. Their sprites could be focused on jumping from vehicle to vehicle instead of node to node. Instead of giving them complex forms of hacking programs give them complex forms as AR manipulations - something that doesn't really overlap with Hacking. Let them use a different set of things and give them their own niche.
Maybe they could act like selective jammers to block a cop from calling for back up. Maybe they could make themselves invivisble to you by having your reality filter replace what it just saw behind you as in front of you, or add a solid AR ad betwen you and them.
Make it so that the things that are hard for hackers are easy for them as long as it is out here in the wifi world. In the matrix they would have to get all the things a hacker would and so they can't automatically replace them.
Full Version: alternate technomancers
| QUOTE |
| What if we changed the focus of the Technomancer to change their role? |
I would have no problem with that.
Right now, the Technomancer's differences with the hacker are pretty limitted. But more importantly, they are poorly defined.
- Technomancers have limitted access to Complex Forms, but can use all of their CFs at the same time.
Honestly, this is shit. The way Hacking is set up, you actually only use one active program at a time and are literally required to use a whole grab bag of different programs in sequence. As currently envisioned, the "difference" is that Technomancers are literally incapable of accomplishing stuff. That's bad. - Technomancers use Sprites instead of Agents
This is much more salvageable. Sprites are... crazy crazy powerful. They have abilities that other Matrix Entities can't even imagine, and they have a variable knowledge basis that allows them to use Knowsofts you've never even seen. Suppression alone almost saves the character concept.
Unfortunately... the analagous function of Hackers is not explicitly capped. Like at all. That's unfortunate. The Agent Smith problem currently undermines the really cool and unique thing that TMs do in the basic rules. Having four shit-hot servants is fine and all, but having infinity second rate back-ups is probably a bit more impressive.
The CF thing needs to be dealt with. I mean seriously. Right now a Technomancer can't have Stealth, ECCM, Track, Spoof, Sniffer, Decrypt, Scan, Browse, Analyze, Edit, and Attack - which means that he actually can't hack at all. A radical reimagining of the entire CF experience is pretty much a requirement.
The Sprite situation needs to be addressed too. But in this case, not from the TM POV. The problem is not Sprites, Sprites do their job just fine. The problem is with the Agent Smith problem. Once that's been solved, or at least hand-waved away, the Sprites have their opportunity to shine.
Of course, Decompiling is a shit skill that is made out of shit, and something needs to be done about that. I would say that Decompiling needs to be useful for expunging any icon from the Matrix - not just Sprites. Then we're at a stage where Technomancers can have a legitimately different fighting style from Hackers. Hackers do Iconigraphic damage, and Technomancers actually banish Icons for periods of time instead. That would be interesting, and potentially game balanced.
-Frank
My problem with CFs is that they have to be bought at a Rating, with the cost equal to that in BP...when in fact I think the rating of their complex forms should be prohibited by their Resonance. I think TMs should work along the same lines as Awakened, buying CFs at a base BP cost of 3 each and instead raising the Technomancer quality to 15 like that of a Full Mage. Then when Unwired comes out I would be happy qualities along the lines of the Aspected qualities in Street Magic but for TMs. So you could have your straight Drone TM or Hacker TM or Sprite TM.
Although this does make TMs more powerful, I think that is what they need, because as is TMs are far underpowered until they have a butt load of karma under their belt.
This would also make the TM the undisputed king of the Matrix in the long run, but I don't think that is a bad thing. TMs can't do too much more than hack anyways with their restriction against Cyberware like Awakened, making the Hacker a very good Hakcer in the long run (not nearly as good as a TM could be) but also able to stay alive and maybe excell at combat as well. But this is IMO.
Although this does make TMs more powerful, I think that is what they need, because as is TMs are far underpowered until they have a butt load of karma under their belt.
This would also make the TM the undisputed king of the Matrix in the long run, but I don't think that is a bad thing. TMs can't do too much more than hack anyways with their restriction against Cyberware like Awakened, making the Hacker a very good Hakcer in the long run (not nearly as good as a TM could be) but also able to stay alive and maybe excell at combat as well. But this is IMO.
my tm rules:
- they cost more right from the start (comparable to magicians)
- CFs cost 5 karma and work at resonance rating
- threading can either be used to give bonus dice to a test with existing CF (not increase the rating!), or emulate a nonexisting CF
- tms have skinlink
problems left to solve: Infinite sprite service problem (TMs can get sprite services using only the resource time, not money like magicians)
concerning aspected TMs: would be nice, but forget the rules about aspected magicians, they are not well done and should not be used as a template
- they cost more right from the start (comparable to magicians)
- CFs cost 5 karma and work at resonance rating
- threading can either be used to give bonus dice to a test with existing CF (not increase the rating!), or emulate a nonexisting CF
- tms have skinlink
problems left to solve: Infinite sprite service problem (TMs can get sprite services using only the resource time, not money like magicians)
concerning aspected TMs: would be nice, but forget the rules about aspected magicians, they are not well done and should not be used as a template
| QUOTE (Garrowolf) |
| The main problem I have with Technomancers is that they are trying to do the exact same thing as Hackers. You have one character type trying to replace another. What if we changed the focus of the Technomancer to change their role? Technomancers can do all that nifty stuff with Wifi so let's make that instead of regular hacking the point. Make it easy for them to get into commlinks and car computers and drones. Let them put up AR illusions and alter ads at will. Make them great at screwing around with the Wifi and AR. They become an illusionist in an AR world and not focus them on the traditional hacking at all. Their sprites could be focused on jumping from vehicle to vehicle instead of node to node. Instead of giving them complex forms of hacking programs give them complex forms as AR manipulations - something that doesn't really overlap with Hacking. Let them use a different set of things and give them their own niche. Maybe they could act like selective jammers to block a cop from calling for back up. Maybe they could make themselves invivisble to you by having your reality filter replace what it just saw behind you as in front of you, or add a solid AR ad betwen you and them. Make it so that the things that are hard for hackers are easy for them as long as it is out here in the wifi world. In the matrix they would have to get all the things a hacker would and so they can't automatically replace them. |
I have a main probem with this: All of this IS traditional hacking.
And at least for me, vehicles are nothing different from nodes.
I would very much hear your ideas of how you would conceptually differentiate between "traditional" hacking and what you suggest for TMs.
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| The CF thing needs to be dealt with. I mean seriously. Right now a Technomancer can't have Stealth, ECCM, Track, Spoof, Sniffer, Decrypt, Scan, Browse, Analyze, Edit, and Attack - which means that he actually can't hack at all. A radical reimagining of the entire CF experience is pretty much a requirement. |
Are you saying that they can't get them because people run out of BP when starting the character or is there a rule limiting these CFs tat I'm not aware of?
Double logic(?) CFs, just like spells.
That may be the case, but I only count 11 CFs in Frank's list and you could have a Logic of 6 (8 w/ Cerebral Booster and a lenient GM who allows that to increase the CF limit, too). Granted, I don't see too many TMs using up 25 build points to go from Logic 5 to Logic 6 just to get two more CFs, but it's possible.
| QUOTE (Serbitar) |
| my tm rules: with existing CF (not increase the rating!), or emulate a nonexisting CF |
I'm confused why this is important? Unless you suggest that this version of threading provides one use bonus dice or somesuch, rather than a sustained increase?
I mean, a rating increase primarily serves as... bonus dice, right?
because i think the whole radio brain thing is retarded, i like to focus on TM's other main ability: making their brain act like a computer. i think it'd be neat to allow TMs to have, say, smartlink complex forms, camera complex forms (basically transforming their meat eyes' visual intake into still images/video that can be transferred across the Matrix), etcetera.
| QUOTE (Serbitar) |
| my tm rules: - threading can either be used to give bonus dice to a test with existing CF (not increase the rating!), or emulate a nonexisting CF |
I hear that one. TMs should also be able to use Psyche to reduce their Threading penalty to -1 like Mages can, IMHO.
| QUOTE (Spike) | ||
I'm confused why this is important? Unless you suggest that this version of threading provides one use bonus dice or somesuch, rather than a sustained increase? I mean, a rating increase primarily serves as... bonus dice, right? |
Threading Stealth is evil. You try to detect a TM whose hacking on the fly and has threaded their Stealth program to 8+. Sure they take a -2 for threading, though my character tried to convince me that Stealth was in use during hacking on the fly and, thus, the -2 didn't apply due to the FAQ but that one didn't work out. But, even with the -2 to her hacking pool she's nigh unfindable.
But, if threading only adds bonus dice and not rating points, then this scenario would be circumvented as Stealth is not rolled during hacking on the fly, only acts as a threshold for the system's extended test.
| QUOTE (Dashifen) | ||||
Threading Stealth is evil. You try to detect a TM whose hacking on the fly and has threaded their Stealth program to 8+. Sure they take a -2 for threading, though my character tried to convince me that Stealth was in use during hacking on the fly and, thus, the -2 didn't apply due to the FAQ but that one didn't work out. But, even with the -2 to her hacking pool she's nigh unfindable. But, if threading only adds bonus dice and not rating points, then this scenario would be circumvented as Stealth is not rolled during hacking on the fly, only acts as a threshold for the system's extended test. |
So....
Then there would be no reason to thread stealth at all? I mean, I'm sure it gets rolled some time, but essentially this makes a threaded stealth useless when it's only being used as a passive threshold... which doesn't make much sense to me. I mean, your munchkin aside, he's paying the penalty in dice wether or not he's rolling dice for stealth or exploit or shooting a freaking gun in the real world as long as he's sustaing that thread, he should get some benefit for it when the CF comes up... like he needs to avoid being noticed hacking on the fly
Make sense?
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| because i think the whole radio brain thing is retarded, i like to focus on TM's other main ability: making their brain act like a computer. i think it'd be neat to allow TMs to have, say, smartlink complex forms, camera complex forms (basically transforming their meat eyes' visual intake into still images/video that can be transferred across the Matrix), etcetera. |
Yeah, I would have liked to have seen TMs handled like this as well.
| QUOTE (Garrowolf) |
| The main problem I have with Technomancers is that they are trying to do the exact same thing as Hackers. You have one character type trying to replace another. |
Do you have a problem with Shamans trying to replace Hermetics? What about combat adapts trying to replace sammys, or social adepts trying to replace faces? Technomancers are a different way of acomplishing a similar goal much like my examples.
| QUOTE (Spike @ Feb 2 2007, 12:35 PM) | ||
So.... Then there would be no reason to thread stealth at all? I mean, I'm sure it gets rolled some time, but essentially this makes a threaded stealth useless when it's only being used as a passive threshold... which doesn't make much sense to me. I mean, your munchkin aside, he's paying the penalty in dice wether or not he's rolling dice for stealth or exploit or shooting a freaking gun in the real world as long as he's sustaing that thread, he should get some benefit for it when the CF comes up... like he needs to avoid being noticed hacking on the fly Make sense? |
The purpose behind threading stealth, under Serb's rule, would be when actively trying not to be detected by IC/Hacker matrix perception tests. I actually don't have much of a problem with the RAW regarding threading, but Serb's rule does make it a bit more dangerous for TMs to hack on the fly because, in that case, threading stealth wont' help.
'Course, once my player realized that she wasn't going to avoid the -2 by saying Steal was in use, she just started threading Exploit since she is actively using that one and, thus, didn't have to deal with the -2. Hacking on the fly takes generally one roll any more.
The threading penalty only doesn't apply to the tests you are making with that program, not to any test you are making while using the form.
-Frank
-Frank
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| The threading penalty only doesn't apply to the tests you are making with that program, not to any test you are making while using the form. -Frank |
What do you mean? I thought the sustaining penalty applied to all actions.
| QUOTE (FAQ) |
| Does threading require an action? Does the -2 modifier from sustaining a threading affect all actions, including use of that complex form? The act of threading itself requires no action -- but the complex form being threaded does. Threaded complex forms must also be sustained, as noted. The -2 modifier for sustaining does not apply to use of that threaded complex form, but it does apply to all other actions the technomancer makes. |
I read that to mean that the TM threads Exploit and, when using Exploit, does not suffer the -2 but for all other actions not using Exploit they do. How are you reading it?
The only reference I see is on page 234 of The Book:
| QUOTE (The Bible) |
| Threaded complex forms must be sustained (similar to how magicians sustain spells). Sustaining requires effort on the technomancer’s part and so he suffers a –2 dice pool modifier to all tests for each sustained complex form. |
EDIT: You're right, I didn't realize they changed that in the FAQ.
I just looked at the Threading paragraph again, it says nothing about not suffering the penalty for using it. It says simply that you suffer a -2 dice penalty to ALL TESTS for EACH sustained threaded CF.
Is this something I should be referencing magic chapters 'sustained spells' to clarify? Cause two seperate people have the same perception that I don't see...
Is this something I should be referencing magic chapters 'sustained spells' to clarify? Cause two seperate people have the same perception that I don't see...
Spike: see FAQ quote above. It's not in the RAW at all, it's a "clarification" from the FAQ which basically contradicts the RAW (making it really Errata and not a FAQ).
I guess it's to avoid the poorly rolled threading test which results in a +1 to the CF and a subsequent -2 due to the threading leaving the unlucky TM with a -1 over all.
I guess it's to avoid the poorly rolled threading test which results in a +1 to the CF and a subsequent -2 due to the threading leaving the unlucky TM with a -1 over all.
| QUOTE (Spike) |
| I just looked at the Threading paragraph again, it says nothing about not suffering the penalty for using it. It says simply that you suffer a -2 dice penalty to ALL TESTS for EACH sustained threaded CF. Is this something I should be referencing magic chapters 'sustained spells' to clarify? Cause two seperate people have the same perception that I don't see... |
Oh heck no. You see, Threading blows monkey ass as written in the basic book. Threading up an Edit command is as close to useless as makes no odds. So the loveable scamps writing the FAQ gave it a sealth injection of utility - that the -2 penalty for sustaining a thread did not apply to your dicepool of the threaded application.
That is, when you thread yourself +2 on your Edit command, you suffer a -2 penalty on all tests, except that now that doesn't include Edit tests. So while according to the basic book, you'd be -2 at all tasks except Edit which you would be at -0 at, you are now at -2 on all tests except Edit and +2 on Edit tests.
Far out dude.
---
That being said, it's still pretty underwhelming. And completely tosses the notion of not contradicting the basic rules in the FAQ.
-Frank
| QUOTE |
| Threading blows monkey ass... |
You almost owed me a new keyboard on that one. Note to self; avoid drinking during DSF activities
Resonance Quests.
(See my post on the other thread).
(See my post on the other thread).
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
|
And I wanted to add:
- TMs must use their own Condition Modifiers.
Flavor-wise this is kinda cool and makes sense to me. If anyone else was following the controversy about using Wired Reflexes in AR, then you know this is fucked up rules-wise. The average Hacker can get ahold of at least Wired Reflexes 2 at chargen, which makes his personal Codition Modifier immune to Black IC attacks (edit: because he's in AR). TMs have no such luxury. If they lose cybercombat, they could be dead and definitely will need help finishing the run. A Hacker has a whole condition modifier for his commlink that he can fill with damage in AR without have to worry about being physically disabled.
This could be fixed by givng TMs a few bonus damage boxes in the matrix equal to Resonance/2 or something.
Where might one find this fabled FAQ you all speak so eloquently of?
| QUOTE (Spike) |
| Where might one find this fabled FAQ you all speak so eloquently of? |
Sprites costs no money at all to register, only time. It means a ressourcefull tehnomancer could, in theory, increase his complex forms rating up to a point the hacker feels really sorry.
Let's take a Cha 5 and Res 5 Technomancer. He can register up to 5 sprites, and he can have a moderate chance of registering them up to rating 5. If he use these sprites to increase some of his CFs to 10 (if they had these CFs at rating 5 to start with), he can totally kick any hacker's sorry commlink.
Attack rating 10, Armor 10, Stealth 10, and so on...And it's free. In addition, these sprites, if they are not increasing the TM's CFs, may fight alongside him, along with a compiled sprite which is just a bonus and could be rating 8 or 9 with some luck.
Let's take a Cha 5 and Res 5 Technomancer. He can register up to 5 sprites, and he can have a moderate chance of registering them up to rating 5. If he use these sprites to increase some of his CFs to 10 (if they had these CFs at rating 5 to start with), he can totally kick any hacker's sorry commlink.
Attack rating 10, Armor 10, Stealth 10, and so on...And it's free. In addition, these sprites, if they are not increasing the TM's CFs, may fight alongside him, along with a compiled sprite which is just a bonus and could be rating 8 or 9 with some luck.
| QUOTE (Dentris) |
| Sprites costs no money at all to register, only time. It means a ressourcefull tehnomancer could, in theory, increase his complex forms rating up to a point the hacker feels really sorry. Let's take a Cha 5 and Res 5 Technomancer. He can register up to 5 sprites, and he can have a moderate chance of registering them up to rating 5. If he use these sprites to increase some of his CFs to 10 (if they had these CFs at rating 5 to start with), he can totally kick any hacker's sorry commlink. Attack rating 10, Armor 10, Stealth 10, and so on...And it's free. In addition, these sprites, if they are not increasing the TM's CFs, may fight alongside him, along with a compiled sprite which is just a bonus and could be rating 8 or 9 with some luck. |
That assumes that a Hacker can't get infinite assists from his Agents. A reasonable, but not RAW-supportable idea.
So long as the Hacker can run millions of Agent Smith copies on Credsticks to assist him with Teamwork, it doesn't really matter if a Technomancer can figure out how to roll with a 10 in one or more programs. The Hacker is rolling his Rating 6 + 1/3 of the dicepool of his Agent Army of infinity agents and still rolling more dice by um... infinity.
That's the core Sprite problem. The things Sprites can do are legitimately awesome. It just doesn't matter right now because currently there is no cap to the analagous Hacker action.
Once someone injects a bit of sanity into the Agent problem, the utility of Sprites will speak for themselves. But I haven't seen even general agreement as to what needs to be done to solve these problems, let alone a willingness on behalf of FanPro to address this on a rules as printed level.
-Frank
With Teamwork, according to the most recent Errata, the Hacker could only double his skill. This doesn't preclude him from just telling his infinite agents to perform some other task that effectively pwns the TM, but the specific problem you state above has been fixed, for what it's worth.
| QUOTE ("Errata 1.5") |
| p. 59 Teamwork Tests [4] Add the following line to the end of the first paragraph: "The maximum dice bonus the primary character can receive from teamwork is equal to that character's skill." |
| QUOTE (Glayvin34) |
| ...which makes his personal Codition Modifier immune to Black IC attacks (edit: because he's in AR) |
you mean because he's not using DNI. unless there's something really dumb in the rules that i didn't notice, you're just as vulnerable in AR as in VR. the difference is whether that lethal ASIST code is being pumped into a computer on your belt that you access through contacts and gloves, or being pumped directly into your brain.
| QUOTE (Glayvin34) |
And I wanted to add:
|
Actually TMs are not as vulnerable to Black IC as you think.
| QUOTE (Page 233 of the BBB) |
Matrix damage is automatically treated as Stun Damage |
I have taken this to mean that any and all damage that a TM takes in the Matrix is considered Stun damage.
And even still, this hacker using all the agents, would have to be in a campaign that the GM AND other players, believe this to be okay. I know we are strictly looking at this from a RAW perspective, but I still have a hard time taking the GM and other players out of this equation...
| QUOTE (mfb @ Feb 2 2007, 03:55 PM) |
| unless there's something really dumb in the rules that i didn't notice, you're just as vulnerable in AR as in VR. |
"Black Hammer is intended as a weapon against hot-sim full-VR hackers, against cold-sim VR users it only inflicts Stun damage. It has no effect on programs, agents, IC or sprites, nor will it affect AR users." p.226, SR4 Core Rules.
And Black IC is nothing more than an agent equipped with the Black Hammer utility.
| QUOTE (Trigger) | ||
I have taken this to mean that any and all damage that a TM takes in the Matrix is considered Stun damage. |
"Black Hammer overflows the Condition Monitor just like any other damage (se p.244). Overflow Physical Damage represents increased levels of brain damage." p.231, SR4 Core Rules.
| QUOTE (RunnerPaul) | ||||
"Black Hammer overflows the Condition Monitor just like any other damage (se p.244). Overflow Physical Damage represents increased levels of brain damage." p.231, SR4 Core Rules. |
That is if the Black Hammer overflows the Stun Boxes of the TM, as all damage a TM takes while immersed is treated as Stun Damage. It would overflow to some physical damage, but the TM would go offline when he goes unconcsious, thus being saved from dying by the Black Hammer. Unless the Black Hammer attack was strong enough to both fill the TMs Stun Track and his Physical Track in one blow the TM is not going to die in the Matrix.
Don't forget though, that the TM is also going to be taking dumpshock. That's another 5P that has to be resisted.
| QUOTE (Trigger) | ||||||
That is if the Black Hammer overflows the Stun Boxes of the TM, as all damage a TM takes while immersed is treated as Stun Damage. It would overflow to some physical damage, but the TM would go offline when he goes unconcsious, thus being saved from dying by the Black Hammer. Unless the Black Hammer attack was strong enough to both fill the TMs Stun Track and his Physical Track in one blow the TM is not going to die in the Matrix. |
Isn't the statement on p 233 intended to mean all Icon damage on the matrix is treated as stun for the TM? That means that programs like Black Hammer, that do damage directly to the hacker, override this rule on account of their specific rules.
Attack does damage to your icon.
TMs have no icon.
Therefore what happens to a TM?
He takes Stun damage. (p 233)
Blackout does stun to the hacker not the icon.
TM is a hacker.
Therefore he takes Stun damage.
Black Hammer does physical to the hacker not the icon.
TM is a hacker.
Therefore he takes Physical damage.
| QUOTE |
| That is if the Black Hammer overflows the Stun Boxes of the TM, as all damage a TM takes while immersed is treated as Stun Damage. |
Uh... what?
"Matrix Damage", the thing that is treated as Stun for Technomancers is specifically the thing that Attack programs inflict, as described on p. 231. Black Hammer inflicts Physical Damage, not Matrix Damage.
-Frank
| QUOTE (RunnerPaul) |
| Don't forget though, that the TM is also going to be taking dumpshock. That's another 5P that has to be resisted. |
That still should not kill the TM.....With a halfway decent Willpower and Charisma a TM should be able to soak at least part of that damage.
All I am saying is that it is very unlikely that TMs will die in the Matrix unless they come into conatct with something much much stronger than they are.
| QUOTE (Trigger) |
| That still should not kill the TM.....With a halfway decent Willpower and Charisma a TM should be able to soak at least part of that damage. All I am saying is that it is very unlikely that TMs will die in the Matrix unless they come into conatct with something much much stronger than they are. |
The TM isn't more likely to be killed than any other runner going up against a reasonable threat. BUT, if a Hacker's commlink is screwed, he can still run away before Lone Star gets there, and/or have two or three Agents in his vehicle using Medic constantly. If a TM takes damage, he gets the obligatory single try to heal it.
So I'm not saying that TMs are not Matrix badasses, just that they're a joke compared to the average Hacker (particularly because of the Agent Smith issue).
Well...Agent Smith does kick some pretty gnarly ass...
And an army of Agent Smiths...*thinks of third Matrix..*....scary...
But a karma pumped TM with multiple submersions....Neo goodness
And an army of Agent Smiths...*thinks of third Matrix..*....scary...
But a karma pumped TM with multiple submersions....Neo goodness
| QUOTE (RunnerPaul) |
| "Black Hammer is intended as a weapon against hot-sim full-VR hackers, against cold-sim VR users it only inflicts Stun damage. It has no effect on programs, agents, IC or sprites, nor will it affect AR users." p.226, SR4 Core Rules. And Black IC is nothing more than an agent equipped with the Black Hammer utility. |
wow. that's really dumb. if your ASIST intake is in the form of unrelated multimedia feeds, rather than a single integrated experience, you are magically immune to having bad things introduced to your brain. in related news, you can only catch AIDS from same-sex intercourse, and you get less calories drinking soda straight from the cup instead of using a straw!
mfb... as far as I know, AR doesn't use ASIST technology at all, it's just a pretty picture in a lense, sounds coming most likely over earbuds, etc. Naturally you WOULD be immune.
The differnece between hot and cold sim is a little sketchier, but reasonably well explained. Cold sim has stronger filters, making lethal feedback difficult if not impossible.
The differnece between hot and cold sim is a little sketchier, but reasonably well explained. Cold sim has stronger filters, making lethal feedback difficult if not impossible.
incorrect. the differentiation that would make sense, in this case, would be between DNI and non-DNI--eg, using a commlink that plugs into your brain versus using contact lenses and gloves. a decker using a cybercommlink and a technomancer are both capable of using AR.
basically, there are three levels of sim: hot, which gives you a speed boost in VR but allows black IC to deal physical damage; col, which is slower but limits IC damage to stun; and no sim, which is using contacts and gloves and earphones or whatever. in no-sim decking, you should indeed be immune to any and all Matrix damage. but the level of sim you're using should be completely unrelated to the level of immersion (ie, AR or VR) you're using, and the level of immersion should be completely unrelated to what kind of Matrix damage you are susceptible to.
basically, there are three levels of sim: hot, which gives you a speed boost in VR but allows black IC to deal physical damage; col, which is slower but limits IC damage to stun; and no sim, which is using contacts and gloves and earphones or whatever. in no-sim decking, you should indeed be immune to any and all Matrix damage. but the level of sim you're using should be completely unrelated to the level of immersion (ie, AR or VR) you're using, and the level of immersion should be completely unrelated to what kind of Matrix damage you are susceptible to.
I'm not following you why you think AR should still be suseptable to damage from black IC? Your persona is still vulnerable to purely matrix damage. But AR DOES NOT imply your brain is jacked into anything, so why should you be vulnerable to damage from biofeedback?
Everyone uses AR, mages use it making phone calls, kids use it to do homework. Everyone uses VR. No plugs, no sim rigs, nothing. So... why should black IC magically be able to affect these users too? That is like saying the computer virus that attacks my PC should be able to make me, the user, sick too. Not gonna happen outside pure fantasy.
Everyone uses AR, mages use it making phone calls, kids use it to do homework. Everyone uses VR. No plugs, no sim rigs, nothing. So... why should black IC magically be able to affect these users too? That is like saying the computer virus that attacks my PC should be able to make me, the user, sick too. Not gonna happen outside pure fantasy.
you're still confusing immersion level (AR vs VR) with sim level (cold vs hot vs no sim at all).
the guys you're talking about--the mages making phone cals, the kids doing homework--they're using no sim. no signal is being sent into their brain. they're using glasses and earphones and stuff, so they are--rightly--immune to IC damage.
the guys i'm talking about are deckers and technomancers. deckers and technomancer are capable of having AR signal sent straight into their brain, just like VR signal. that signal is (or should be) just as capable of carrying lethal code into the decker/TM's brain whether it's being used to display AR information or VR information.
the guys you're talking about--the mages making phone cals, the kids doing homework--they're using no sim. no signal is being sent into their brain. they're using glasses and earphones and stuff, so they are--rightly--immune to IC damage.
the guys i'm talking about are deckers and technomancers. deckers and technomancer are capable of having AR signal sent straight into their brain, just like VR signal. that signal is (or should be) just as capable of carrying lethal code into the decker/TM's brain whether it's being used to display AR information or VR information.
A hacker using AR to hack is, according to the book, not using SIM at all. SIM in the current rules implies VR.
TM's are a touchier subject as they are presumably always 'in' at some level. Right now I'm trying to sort out this AR/VR argument we're having straight, then rope in the TM's part in the topic...
TM's are a touchier subject as they are presumably always 'in' at some level. Right now I'm trying to sort out this AR/VR argument we're having straight, then rope in the TM's part in the topic...
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| you're still confusing immersion level (AR vs VR) with sim level (cold vs hot vs no sim at all). the guys you're talking about--the mages making phone cals, the kids doing homework--they're using no sim. no signal is being sent into their brain. they're using glasses and earphones and stuff, so they are--rightly--immune to IC damage. the guys i'm talking about are deckers and technomancers. deckers and technomancer are capable of having AR signal sent straight into their brain, just like VR signal. that signal is (or should be) just as capable of carrying lethal code into the decker/TM's brain whether it's being used to display AR information or VR information. |
Obviously all RPG rules lack Logic, but it seems that an AR signal just doesn't have the amplitude to hurt you. There's supposedly a "lower baud rate" (for lack of a better term) or at least the human/ computer interaction is much slower. So even if you're immersed in AR and using a datajack, the signals can stimulate your sensory nerves a little and that's it. In order to be stimulated to the point of feeling a real enviroment, you must be in VR, and those signals do way more than overlay a few false perceptions on the real world.
Here's another thing on that topic- who says you can't hack someone's commlink, fully immerse them in Hot Sim then blast them with Black IC?
Once my Hacker character used the Matrix for interrogation. We tied the guy up, slapped trodes on 'im, then cranked the dial to Hot Sim. Without any cybercombat skills it was all Pierce Brosnan v. Jobe styli. And I was Jobe.
Once my Hacker character used the Matrix for interrogation. We tied the guy up, slapped trodes on 'im, then cranked the dial to Hot Sim. Without any cybercombat skills it was all Pierce Brosnan v. Jobe styli. And I was Jobe.
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