Please correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the Agent Smith problem addressed by the FAQ?

True but those nodes have to be within Signal and because they are autonomous, you would need to call the agents to help you which takes actions. Additionally, each credstick costs 25 and despite its rating 6 as a device, logic would dictate that the credstick has a Signal rating of 0 or 1.

Add to that the fact that just because you have hacked in doesn't mean that each agent has, so now the Agents are each hacking in from the outside, and while they can assist in hacking, only one agent gets in per test. Which means if you are in a secured system, it's going to take awhile for the cavalry to get there.

Eventually they will get there, but it takes time.

Hackers are harder to get via the rules than Agents, and they cost money or favors. There's the "Load an Agent" action, and that's free.

Also, one Hacker = one comm, so only System x 2 Hackers can be subscribed to a node, but Agents just charge on in.

EDIT: Oops, looks like Agents count toward subscription limit, too.

The logic of your reply has been lost on me.

Would you allow the exploit to let Hackers into the system, the same way that you are suggesting allowing Agents in? If not, then why are the agents not slamming into the firewall when given the same information that the other hackers have?

Secondly the limitation on subscriptions is based on the Persona not the node, so I'm not following where you are going there.

I acknowledged the quote about GM discretion in my previous post, though the question remains about if such discretion is not given. Personally to balance the system, I would not give a freebie for continued entrances over several hours or days unless the hacker had an exceptional success (4+ successes beyond the threshold)

Under the definition on p. 213, it directs you to the Subscription and Linking section on p. 212 which has a direct reference to Persona. Applying the limit to subscription and Nodes, then you already have limited the number of agents that you can have. (Systemx2)-(# of pre-existing users)

I would tend to see this as a small number of users who can access a server at any given moment. From a security perspective though, it could of course be used as a reversed denial of service from the inside. By filling in the ranks of users allowed in a node, then you have blocked all external access. From within the node, you can daisy chain subscriptions out to create internal access but have your external access completely locked down.

Either way, the subscription argument alone speaks against an Agent Smith tactic as you are limited to a handful of active agents, teamwork tests, etc.

Yeah, that's certainly the most blunt-force method of exploiting infinite Agents, and there's some minimal rules against it if the GM is paying attention. But there are other methods of exploiting such a blatant loophole that you don't even need skills to use:
(I'd like to thank FrankTrollman for the LIST idea)

• No crashing.
  Have Agents in many nearby nodes with decent device ratings, like vehicles, all equipped with Medic. They can delay actions to heal you as soon as you take damage.
• Denial-of-Service.
  You first need to be subscribed to a node that is eventually subscribed to the target node, and have a clear exploit path to the target node. Then send in 12 independent Agents and drop the target node's response to 0.

And there's more, but this has been done to death on DSF. I play a Hacker and I never have nor never would try any of these dirty tricks for several reasons. My character hasn't come across anything I couldn't handle in the Matrix, our game isn't terribly Matrix-focused because I'm the only player that gets (or cares about) the Matrix rules, and I DM a DnD game and I'd be PISSED if one of my players tried this shit. I'd just say "no, it doesn't work, I don't care what it says in the book, I houserule that whatever you just said can't happen". But I think the rules should forbid it somehow, and they don't.

Back to TMs, though, why fall forever down the bottomless pit of karma when you can just play a Hacker backed up by a small fleet of Agents? I've almost maxed out my Hacker skills with 50 karma, so now I'm working on my Street Sam skills.

I would tend to say that the choice to be a TM is much the same as the choice to be an Adept. They have limitless potential, at exponential cost.

Currently there are no SOTA rules, but the ability to continually upgrade your abilities and crank CFs to levels well beyond mortal programming ability will eventually win out.

Obviously this debate is before Unwired comes out, so there very well may be explicit differences and abilities spelled out at a later point. As it stands now, the debate falls to karma vs cash and specialist vs JoAT.

Lastly, while Electricity damage has been scaled back in SR4, I still have flashbacks of watching countless hours and hundreds of thousands of nuyen get turned into so much burnt silicon from a lightning bolt.

This is for you

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...ic=16389&st=166
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...ic=16389&st=208

Correct but in SR3 if your deck got fried, you were screwed. Hence the allusion to a system other than SR4.

True, but the secondary effects hit all of your gear too, or did in SR3. So you scraped by using combat pool and karma to soak the damage just to watch your deck get slagged.

Part of the success of copying all that shit relies on the GM affording plenty of down time to crack all those threshold 10 and 20 copy protections. That's a lot of rolls, and the GM is, I think, Encouraged to scrag the program being hacked if you glitch...

Cause it's a lot of work to get twenty hits time some twenty programs to crack them all....

Don't forget about the limitations on extended tests and the number of times you can re-roll.

My GM isn't all that Matrix Saavy, and it did take months of downtime for everything. We didn't take into consideration that I could damage the program beyond repair, wouldn't I have a backup copy or something?

Anyway, Unwired is supposed to help with encryption, which I'm pretty sure everyone agrees is lacking in SR4.

EDIT: And more rules means more things that TMs can(n't) do.

You couldn't have a backup copy until you'd broken the copy protection!

Thinking about BTLs and whatnot, I didn't take into account the use-once and self-erasing technology in the Sixth World. I guess you're right.

wow this thread took off from last night.

well at this point in my game the technomancer is a NPC. I just use him as a super hacker.

What I was thinking was that if we changed the technomancer to be AR illusionists instead of traditional hackers they could develop their own niche. Right now they have a bad character development system and they are walking all over another character type.

Basically a hacker can fast hack a comlink. what I was thinking was allow the technomancer to force something through the resonance into a commlink without actually hacking it. Basically in AR they can do things that make little sense from a hacking point of view (they make little sense anyway so why not focus it). They could have a whole list of complex forms that do things that hackers can't do becauseit does an end run around the system and just plants things into a computer. Make them e-warfare gods but then get rid of their regular hacking. Basically they see the wifi world differently then the rest of us. They can access it but why aren't solid in the actual matrix itself.

I'm talking about starting over with these guys. No just a patch or a house rule. Why not just remove them entirely as written and take the name and the wifi brain thing and start over.

Why is that dumb? I don't get how 'dumb' follows from 'AR doesn't use sim.'


Everyone uses AR. It's just mostly images on screens that you can interact with. Holograms only you can see even. YOu walk around in it, do stuff in it, with your real body.

Sim shuts the body down and just uses the mind itself. Not everyone is going to want to do that just to hang out, chat with buddies or do their daily job.

Now, if you are saying it's dumb to hack in AR... well, the rules make it pretty dumb, sort of like the old 'turtle deck' hackers. You are SLOW... slow beyond belief compared to the sim dudes. In return the nasty brain burning can't happen, its just an electronic ghost making scary faces too you.

Makes perfect sense to me.

because 'sim' is short for 'simsense', which is ASIST data. if your commlink plugs into your brain, you are using simsense whether you're hacking in VR or making phone calls in AR. same for technomancers. the only question is whether you're using hot sim or cold sim. 'no sim' is not on the menu for TMs and users of cybercommlinks. if AR didn't use sim, you would not be able to use AR with DNI--which is what you're doing when you use AR on a cybercommlink, or if you're a technomancer. (actually, even if you're using non-DNI interface devices, it's still simsense--it's just being fed to your contacts/gloves/earbuds, rather than your brain.)

that's why i compared it to drinking coke, earlier. whether you're drinking it through a straw or straight from the cup, the coke is coming from the same place and it's going to the same place--and it's still coke, no matter what. same with simsense. it doesn't matter if you're using AR or VR--it's still simsense, and simsense is what black IC exploits to fry your brain. the only way you should logically be immune to black IC is if the simsense never reaches your brain at all. in other words, if you're using contacts and gloves and earbuds to do your AR (or VR, for that matter), black IC can't touch you. but if you plug your brain into your computer (or if your brain is a computer), you should be vulnerable to black IC and other sources of Matrix damage because, AR or VR, you are sucking simsense into your skull.

and as for being 'slow beyond belief', well, sure--unless you've got jacked-up physical reflexes. then you're just as fast as the DNI hackers, and you're immune to Matrix damage. which is why this is something of an issue.

Going back to Technomancers. I like most of what they can do, and I feel that the terrible starting character is necissary to balance their INSANE abilities once they get karma pumping.

Hackers start the game with all programs at 6 (effective 5) and only have to upgrade their commlink and computer/hacking skill groups 2 more. 40 karma in total. Sure they have to spend over half of that oh so precious 250k on programs, but so what, they never have to upgrade again. And, once they brake their copy protection, no one else in the team has to ever buy the programs. This makes ace hackers also wonderfull sammies and probably the most viable character to play in SR4.

Technomancers are stuck with their lot in life and will never be able to do anything else, except maybe face or rig. The other fundamental issue is that almost all of their advantages come in full VR, when really, they should be much more focused on AR. Definately, they should recieve 1 (if not more) Initiative pases for working in AR (or just treat AR as VR for a TM) since they bend the matrix with force of will much as a mage bends mana. I think rules need to be established that reinforce this. Right now TMs are not much more than Otaku. Only know they access it wireless. Where are all the cool AR Technomancer powers. Thats what I want to see.

A few responses... I just saw the thread, my apologies if some are from the initial few posts:

1. When a Technomancer using threading or the Assist ability of a sprite his CF value is raised. This makes Threading Stealth viable.

2. Why not Thread AND use a Sprite's Assist action?

3. Running multiple CF's is a huge benefit, but you have to have a GM thats not a hack and slasher to see how sexy it is.

Example:
Joe has the following 6 programs loaded using his starting 6/5/5/6 commlink and a successful roll of a Reality Filter:

Reality Filter (+1 Response, raises limit of programs to 6 since System is already a 6)
Analyze [so you can have half a chance at Matrix Perception]
Exploit [so you can get in, change to Scan, Edit or Browse as needed]
Encrypt [So baddies can't listen in on your commlink to your team without decrypting]
Spoof [So you can keep trying to notice the Trace program]
Stealth [So you dont get seen]

Now out of those 6 programs, you have all useful programs and only the Exploit slot to change around without hindering yourself. Thats not versatile. Meanwhile the TM can Scan for nodes while browsing for data, directing Agents doing searches, etc, and his defenses like Armor are always active in case he is surprised. Thats an advantage to be sure!

4. Two cool TM powers are Cookie, Diagnostics, Electron Storm, and Gremlin... all available only through Sprites. Yeah, yeah, its a cool *Sprite* power but thats what defines a TM's uniqueness. Sprites are wicked powerful, usually treated as intelligent, and with the ability to take any wireless or skinlinked device like a smartgun and add bonus dice they really make a difference. Oh... and you're right about the limited roles of a TM but in those roles they can do a phenomenol job!

5. Sprites getting Bound, errr... 'Registered' cost NOTHING except time. Not like Spirits where it costs Nuyen.

6. The Resonance link is an unhackable, unspoofable way to communicate and has no range penalty. You park a sprite at an NPC and speak through the sprite... have a nice day. And it allows you to communicate with sprites very well too. the only hitch is a enemy TM impersonating you, but hey, it pwnz hackers.

7. Machine Sprites can carry CF's of autosofts as an optional power. Have a Machine Sprite aid another Machine Sprite using the Diagnostics power and you have a Steel Lynx with TEETH... [6 Rating sprite, 6 autosoft rating, 2 dice for smartlink, sensor link bonus dice <varies>, and then another 4 dice on average from the Diagnostics power. thats maybe 20 dice to shoot without aiming and without the cap on Pilot ratings and without the cap on Autosofts. Ba-DOW.

Lastly, TM's can do some funny things Hackers can't. I had one who would hack by having the Team's mage Shapechange him into a Pigeon. He'd take 100% cover near the heart of a compound [to avoid astral detection hopefully] and hack while a pigeon. A few teensy flying drones for data storage and relaying to the group via the Drones higher Signal rating and VOILA! A real PITA for enemy hackers.

My 2 Nuyen worth...

The following as no limit
Program rating
Firewall
System
response

You can build or program all of these things above 6. And a technomancer can develop them beyond six.

Frankly I think its a good idea for a hacker to run a bunch of programs at rating 5 and take the 1 hit to your response. Sure its 5 and not 6. (assuming you haven't built a rating 7 response chip)