Full Version: Pirates of the Carribean
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Mar 1 2007, 04:25 PM) | ||
The Dutchman has to roam the seven seas until it has collected 2 of every unclean and 7 of every clean luxury item? |
| QUOTE (PBTHHHHT @ Mar 1 2007, 03:02 PM) |
| Hmmm... what was the original reason they went from wooden ships to ironclads?  |
Pretty much. Even a blackpowder filled shell could really tear up a wooden ship. There was also hot shotting, which was firing a red-hot cannon ball into the enemy ship, which usually set it on fire. A mix of HE and phosphorus rounds would be hell on a wooden boat. Come to think of it, the phosphorus round could be combined with a timed fused, like the one used to airburst grenades. Have those shells burst in the general area and rain burning phosphorus down on the decks and sails.
| QUOTE (Thane36425) |
| Come to think of it, the phosphorus round could be combined with a timed fused, like the one used to airburst grenades. Have those shells burst in the general area and rain burning phosphorus down on the decks and sails. |
You could just blow it the fuck up for the same trouble -- though I agree that setting it on fire with incendiary munitions might be more stylish.
| QUOTE (Thane36425) | ||
Pretty much. Even a blackpowder filled shell could really tear up a wooden ship. There was also hot shotting, which was firing a red-hot cannon ball into the enemy ship, which usually set it on fire. A mix of HE and phosphorus rounds would be hell on a wooden boat. Come to think of it, the phosphorus round could be combined with a timed fused, like the one used to airburst grenades. Have those shells burst in the general area and rain burning phosphorus down on the decks and sails. |
Again, though it depends on what protection the spirit provides. We're talking about a magically enhanced tall ship, not anything historic.
Forests have regrown in that area at a rapid pace, even more so in Amazonia where the government has been working to do so.
How's this for a plot hook? Flying Dutchman project was partially financed by Amazonia amongst the villages of the old Spanish Main. Government helped the villages to cut and shape the timber into the necessary planks, keels, and stems. Also sent magical consultants to help the local shamans and houngans to prepare the vessels, guns, and rigging/sails. Now there is a small fleet of them running up and down the Nicaraguan/Panamanian coast raiding the small villages and picking off straggling merchantman. The proceeds from the pirating go to the Amazonian villages and the government gets another irregular force to hamper the Aztlan efforts in Columbia.
Cuba has a big steel industry and could make modern ships but it also has a modern fleet and a dictatorship so they aren't in on the pirate game.
Detailed plans for at least half of all tall ships the Brits ever built are still available nowadays and considering the popularity of the era in Britain I imagine somebody put them on to an electronic copy. Mage doesn't have to design anything, just show the plans to a handful of Task spirits that have Artisan 6/Nautical Mechanics 6 and you're good to go.
A missile moving at supersonic speeds that is designed to work against modern warships, if fired against a non-magically enhanced, wooden hull, would, IMO, have a good chance of going straight through the ship before it exploded. Look at what modern AP rounds do to a human body. They go through and explode when they hit the ground behind. Unless you manage to rake their stern you might not get much. Course it only takes 1 to explode and the ship is in a bad way.
I'm getting pretty surprised just how vocal and unimaginative the gun nut crowd on Dumpshock seems to be. Instead of trying to continuously poke holes in a cool idea by restating the same tired facts about RL, maybe you should start thinking about what's happening in SR and constructively coming up with ways that this could work.
I already know that this thing can't stand up to a modern warship and missiles--so stop bringing that up!
| QUOTE (Cheops) |
| A missile moving at supersonic speeds that is designed to work against modern warships, if fired against a non-magically enhanced, wooden hull, would, IMO, have a good chance of going straight through the ship before it exploded. |
This is hardly a question of opinion. It won't. The fuzes are timed so that the main warhead detonates once it has passed the armor plating and is inside the hull. What the hull or the armor plating are made of is of no consequence, as long as they can be penetrated and offer at least some resistance. It works equally well against unarmored merchant ships and armored cruisers -- it will not suddenly fail against a wooden hull. The result is lots of small, smoldering pieces of ex-Dutchman.
| QUOTE (Cheops) |
| Look at what modern AP rounds do to a human body. They go through and explode when they hit the ground behind. |
Could happen, definitely. A decent operating time for a point-detonating fuze is 2 milliseconds, in which time a cannon HE rounds could've managed some 7 feet if it hasn't been slowed down. But even if fuze technology doesn't improve and we're talking about a mach 8 missile, 17 feet will be well inside the ship.
| QUOTE (Cheops) |
| Course it only takes 1 to explode and the ship is in a bad way. |
Several bad ways, most likely.
And that was you bringing that up.
| QUOTE (Cheops) |
| Instead of trying to continuously poke holes in a cool idea by restating the same tired facts about RL, [...] |
It's not all RL, some logic penetrates into SR as well. And I'll certainly stop as soon as it seems the "tired facts" are understood.
| QUOTE (Cheops) |
| [...] maybe you should start thinking about what's happening in SR and constructively coming up with ways that this could work. |
I don't particularly want this in my games, so I don't feel a need to come up with how it could work. But even if it's inefficient, it's far from impossible -- if you're running a magic-heavy game, preferably with a bit of a cartoonish streak, by all means go for it. Stranger things have happened in the 6th World, that's for sure.
| QUOTE (Cheops) |
| I'm getting pretty surprised just how vocal and unimaginative the gun nut crowd on Dumpshock seems to be. Instead of trying to continuously poke holes in a cool idea by restating the same tired facts about RL, maybe you should start thinking about what's happening in SR and constructively coming up with ways that this could work. |
Well you keep making it like it's next best thing since sliced bread to sail the seven seas. We all know it's not impossible, just not efficient/practical. You're the one that keeps trying to say how great it is and defending it so there's debate and some of us are answering back. This is the internet, people will argue over lots of things until the cow comes home, just the nature of the beast. I, for one, wouldn't mind putting it in my game, but it'd be more of a ghost ship rather than some hougan and pirate group that somehow built this and have managed to survive for the relatively short time in such a noticeable firetrap...
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Mar 1 2007, 03:28 PM) |
| A suction cup harpoon, maybe? |
Well, the idea is to have a cool and stylish over-the-top metaphorical depiction of nineteenth-century whaling as sky-piracy or sky-piracy as nineteenth-century whaling (I'm not sure which), not technical accuracy.
Just saying if you want the game to look like a cartoon, why not go whole hog?
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||
This is hardly a question of opinion. It won't. The fuzes are timed so that the main warhead detonates once it has passed the armor plating and is inside the hull. What the hull or the armor plating are made of is of no consequence, as long as they can be penetrated and offer at least some resistance. It works equally well against unarmored merchant ships and armored cruisers -- it will not suddenly fail against a wooden hull. The result is lots of small, smoldering pieces of ex-Dutchman. |
Even it the missile doesn't explode, you're still talking about a very heavy chunk of metal moving very fast. It will dump a lot of kinetic engery on the target. Also, missiles aren't building like cannon shells. They as light as they can get away with and still function. So, even hitting a wooden hull, the missile would probably break up. The warhead, being the toughest part, might tear through the ship, but the rest would probably break. So you'd end up with fuel and bit of jagged metal flying around inside the hull of the ship. If the missile were using a pop-up attack and coming down onto the deck at a 45 or so degree angle, that warhead could exit below the waterline, causing flooding.
In fairness though, in WWII, armor piercing shells fired from big naval guns tended to go through light ships like destroyers without exploding. The destroyers of Taffey 3 that attacked the Yamato had shells go through them without exploding, though they did still damage the ships. Once the Japanese switched to HE shells with impact fuzes, the destroyers really caught hell. A wooden ship would probably be affected the same way, with AP shells going through without exploding but still doing damage. HE impacted fuzed shells would do a lot of damage.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| Just saying if you want the game to look like a cartoon, why not go whole hog? |
Now there's a thought. A stylized wooden sailing ship crewed by spirits manifesting as "bug-eyed, large breasted, prepubescent, gun-toting girls" (don't remember which comedian said that about anime). If you were aiming for a horror campaign, you could always duplicate the crew from One Piece.
| QUOTE (Thane36425) |
| So, even hitting a wooden hull, the missile would probably break up. The warhead, being the toughest part, might tear through the ship, but the rest would probably break. |
Absolutely. It'd look a bit like this (skip to 42 seconds, and for your own sanity ignore the comments).
I have no idea whatsoever how the big-ass AP shells of the huge naval cannons of yore functioned. Fortunately nobody uses them anymore, let alone in the 2070s, and modern fuzes for anti-ship munitions are rarely as picky.
I'm gonna link this picture again, just because.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| Absolutely. It'd look a bit like this (skip to 42 seconds, and for your own sanity ignore the comments). I have no idea whatsoever how the big-ass AP shells of the huge naval cannons of yore functioned. Fortunately nobody uses them anymore, let alone in the 2070s, and modern fuzes for anti-ship munitions are rarely as picky. I'm gonna link this picture again, just because. |
Interesting. Lots of damage and the warhead didn't even go off, at least it doesn't look like it did.
Those old AP shells used mechanical fuses in the base of the shell that required a certain amount of force to trigger them. Since they were designed to be fired against a foot or more of armored steel, the weren't very sensitive. That was why they tended to go through light ships without detonating. HE shells used a nose mounted fuse that was much more sensitive. I'm not sure what modern missile used, but I'm pretty sure that even the mechanical fuzes would be far better than WWII types. Electronic fuzes are probably the standard in SR because they could be readily programmed to the milisecond as to when to set off the warhead.
I believe that test missile didn't have a warhead in it. Yeah, more than a ton of metal, plastic and rocket fuel at 280m/s (920fps) tends to hurt. [Edit]No idea how much that missile actually weighed. Could be anywhere from 1000kg to 2800kg on impact, depending on exact model, range, and what parts were missing or replaced and with what. Still, damn heavy.[/Edit]
As I said, modern, mechanical point-detonating fuzes commonly have an actual delay of something like 2 milliseconds. They can be anything from hugely sensitive to requiring the aforementioned foot of armor steel. For an anti-ship missile, not likely to run into any natural obstacles before touching its target, it can be set to be very sensitive indeed -- although it can also be set such that it actually only arms once it has found its target and is close to impact.
This with current tech. In the 2070s, you'd want the detonators to be accurate to the microsecond and programmable on the fly, so that the missile can identify the exact type of the ship (or other target) it's attacking, choose the best angle of attack, and delay the detonation to the point where the warhead has penetrated to the most vulnerable area of the hull.
As I said, modern, mechanical point-detonating fuzes commonly have an actual delay of something like 2 milliseconds. They can be anything from hugely sensitive to requiring the aforementioned foot of armor steel. For an anti-ship missile, not likely to run into any natural obstacles before touching its target, it can be set to be very sensitive indeed -- although it can also be set such that it actually only arms once it has found its target and is close to impact.
This with current tech. In the 2070s, you'd want the detonators to be accurate to the microsecond and programmable on the fly, so that the missile can identify the exact type of the ship (or other target) it's attacking, choose the best angle of attack, and delay the detonation to the point where the warhead has penetrated to the most vulnerable area of the hull.
however modern missiles still seem to fail quite often, i found numerous reports about exocet missiles hitting their target without detonating....
one might wonder if that was because of bad quality or irregular operation... still they caused heavy damage due to fires from propellant.
one might wonder if that was because of bad quality or irregular operation... still they caused heavy damage due to fires from propellant.
The Exocet will be around 100 years old by 2070.
sure, i was just amazed how often it failed... i'd never thought it would happen that often...
And if people are wondering, the Exocet is 15.4 feet (4.7m) in length, wingspan of 3.6 feet (1.1 m), has a launch weight of 670 kg (1477 lb) of which 165 kg (363.7 lb) is the warhead and speed of 315 m/s (704.6 mph).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exocet
So if it fails to explode, that'll still hurt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exocet
So if it fails to explode, that'll still hurt.
I agree it's rather odd. I don't see any particular reason why an anti-ship missile should be any more prone to such failure than AGMs, and on a quick search no similar failures come up with, say, Harpoons. Maybe it's just some particular oddity of the Exocet.
More pretty pictures here.
More pretty pictures here.
| QUOTE (PBTHHHHT) | ||
Well you keep making it like it's next best thing since sliced bread to sail the seven seas. We all know it's not impossible, just not efficient/practical. You're the one that keeps trying to say how great it is and defending it so there's debate and some of us are answering back. This is the internet, people will argue over lots of things until the cow comes home, just the nature of the beast. I, for one, wouldn't mind putting it in my game, but it'd be more of a ghost ship rather than some hougan and pirate group that somehow built this and have managed to survive for the relatively short time in such a noticeable firetrap... |
It's amazing how willing you people seem to be to ignore certain parts of other people's comments. I keep trying to find ways to make it work, yes, because I think it is a cool idea. If you don't think it is a cool idea fine.
I fully understood everything you guys said about missiles the first time. Fuck off. I get it.
Next time you quote me and say that I don't get it--quote my whole post.
I quite clearly said that I understand that this thing can't go up against modern warships and missiles in the POST YOU QUOTED.
Keep it civil and shiny kiddos
If we do does that make us Big Damn Heroes?
(You asked for it with the shiny ref.)
As an aside, Cheops, even assuming you're only going up against pleasure yachts, tramp freighters, and other non military folk, it's the sixth world. Everyones armed. And paranoid. I mean, the tramp cruiser may not have it's own fleet of attack choppers, but the yacht may have some light ship to ship weaponry, since it's so fricken expensive and the weapons aren't THAT much more. Plus, as soon as the Dutchman becomes too successful, you're gonna get people trying to hunt it down. It may not be easy to find, but it seems to me that the dutchman only really works in a naval force as a privateer, and then only on light merchant ships. It might be kinda cool as a awakened threat type dealie, (return of the Queen Anne's Revenge, captained by a free spirit that claims to be Edward Teach or summat,) or as a cottage industry for deep green eco-freaks out of amazonia, but again, it seems to me that it is insanely expensive compared to a equivalent boat that uses tech. I mean, sure, it could work, but there wouldn't be much of a market outside those that can build it themselves and rich playboy deep greens who want to say that they pirate "old school". Plus it's really expensive to replace when a coast guard cutter puts a shell through it or even hit it with a quad-50. And eventually, pirates do tend to run afoul with the law, or even worse, bigger, nastier pirates.
(You asked for it with the shiny ref.)
As an aside, Cheops, even assuming you're only going up against pleasure yachts, tramp freighters, and other non military folk, it's the sixth world. Everyones armed. And paranoid. I mean, the tramp cruiser may not have it's own fleet of attack choppers, but the yacht may have some light ship to ship weaponry, since it's so fricken expensive and the weapons aren't THAT much more. Plus, as soon as the Dutchman becomes too successful, you're gonna get people trying to hunt it down. It may not be easy to find, but it seems to me that the dutchman only really works in a naval force as a privateer, and then only on light merchant ships. It might be kinda cool as a awakened threat type dealie, (return of the Queen Anne's Revenge, captained by a free spirit that claims to be Edward Teach or summat,) or as a cottage industry for deep green eco-freaks out of amazonia, but again, it seems to me that it is insanely expensive compared to a equivalent boat that uses tech. I mean, sure, it could work, but there wouldn't be much of a market outside those that can build it themselves and rich playboy deep greens who want to say that they pirate "old school". Plus it's really expensive to replace when a coast guard cutter puts a shell through it or even hit it with a quad-50. And eventually, pirates do tend to run afoul with the law, or even worse, bigger, nastier pirates.
| QUOTE (Crakkerjakk) |
| If we do does that make us Big Damn Heroes? (You asked for it with the shiny ref.) |
"Don't it just."
I like Cheops idea, but think it would be something special that would only be taken out once in a while. The main reason for that, is so that no one knows if it really exist, is a legend, a magical phenomen, etc...
Would it be possible to use magic / alchemistry to make wood fire proof? or at least as heat resistant as metal? Sustained spell?
The reason I am asking, is that I was thinking more along the line of PT boats, and having wooden/magical/alchemical engines that burn biodiesel.
If not, could you use fire spirits to flash heat water so that it could be used as a jet, for propulsion, then have the movement power used? No moving parts, a very small amount of metal, if any at all. This idea came from the movie Hunt for the Red October, where the submarine used that type of propulsion system.
To make them more deadly, have them be submersible, not submarines, but able to "sink", to hide without a magical blazing beacon. Even if magic was used, it would be hard to see due to being underwater. I could see limited movement, using the Jet, mostly to be able to get to the hide out thru an underwater tunnel?
The idea of using PT boats would be for kidnapping, or highjacking. They would not be useful to steal/transport cargo. Well, unless you are talking about very small and valuable cargo, say oricalcum, or such.
Would it be possible to use magic / alchemistry to make wood fire proof? or at least as heat resistant as metal? Sustained spell?
The reason I am asking, is that I was thinking more along the line of PT boats, and having wooden/magical/alchemical engines that burn biodiesel.
If not, could you use fire spirits to flash heat water so that it could be used as a jet, for propulsion, then have the movement power used? No moving parts, a very small amount of metal, if any at all. This idea came from the movie Hunt for the Red October, where the submarine used that type of propulsion system.
To make them more deadly, have them be submersible, not submarines, but able to "sink", to hide without a magical blazing beacon. Even if magic was used, it would be hard to see due to being underwater. I could see limited movement, using the Jet, mostly to be able to get to the hide out thru an underwater tunnel?
The idea of using PT boats would be for kidnapping, or highjacking. They would not be useful to steal/transport cargo. Well, unless you are talking about very small and valuable cargo, say oricalcum, or such.
| QUOTE (Cheops) |
| I quite clearly said that I understand that this thing can't go up against modern warships and missiles in the POST YOU QUOTED. |
If you did not want to discuss anything related to modern warships and missiles, it might have been a good idea not to bring up the "go through the ship before exploding" bit yourself. If you first make disagreeable comments about an issue, you can't expect people to just shut up and let that hang in there uncorrected if you then end the message with the equivalent of "let's just agree to disagree and stop talking about it".
The addition to cannon and/or MLRS to new ships is an attempt to provide ships with more ability to support troops on land via artillery fire, not to shoot at other ships with.
Seems to me that a wooden-hulled sailing vessel is probably no worse off, defense wise, than any other non-military vessel. As far as I understand it, modern fiberglass and plastic hulls aren't substantially sturdier than old-school wooden hulls. They're just a heck of a lot cheaper, and have less problems with hull fouling.
Modern pirates don't generally use military grade vessels, and can't stand up to a naval ship. As far as I recall the pirates described in Cyberpirates generally can't go toe-to-toe with a naval vessel either. I don't think the Flying Dutchman is any worse than a converted civilian yacht or cargo vessel for piracy.
The biggest disadvantage to a sailing ship, of course, is the reliance on local wind conditions for propulsion. You can mitigate that somewhat with magic. The biggest advantage is that it would have a lower Object Resistance, but I don't really see a whole lot of uses for that. I suppose it makes it feasible to use Vehicle Mask on your ship (you only need 6 successes to disguise your ship from another ship, instead of 8 to affect a modern vessel).
I like the idea though.
Modern pirates don't generally use military grade vessels, and can't stand up to a naval ship. As far as I recall the pirates described in Cyberpirates generally can't go toe-to-toe with a naval vessel either. I don't think the Flying Dutchman is any worse than a converted civilian yacht or cargo vessel for piracy.
The biggest disadvantage to a sailing ship, of course, is the reliance on local wind conditions for propulsion. You can mitigate that somewhat with magic. The biggest advantage is that it would have a lower Object Resistance, but I don't really see a whole lot of uses for that. I suppose it makes it feasible to use Vehicle Mask on your ship (you only need 6 successes to disguise your ship from another ship, instead of 8 to affect a modern vessel).
I like the idea though.
Ship length contributes to speed. Ship mass contributes to carrying capacity.
Wooden ships are heavier and slower for their length than metal ships. They are taller and thus make easier targets. Contrary to what has been repeatedly thrown around on this thread - a wooden ship is easier to spot with "sensors" than a metal ship of the same mass - it has a higher profile and is larger.
Wooden ships are more expensive to maintain, requiring a constant influx of new wood, pitch, and rope just to keep from being disolved by he sea.
With the singular exception of fuel consumption, a wooden ship falls in every category to a steel one. It's slower, carries less cargo, has a larger sillouette, costs more to make, costs more to maintain, requires a larger crew, and is weaker in a fight.
Unless you somehow cannot get your hands on synthetic diesel fuel to save your life (but can somehow get your hands on oak and pine tar regularly), there's no damn reason at all to go for a galleon when there are already scrap fleets of steel vessels that you could just appropriate and retrofit.
Any and all statements about building a galleon "yourself" make no sense to me because galleon production crews have historically been huge industrial affairs with hundreds of workers.
-Frank
Wooden ships are heavier and slower for their length than metal ships. They are taller and thus make easier targets. Contrary to what has been repeatedly thrown around on this thread - a wooden ship is easier to spot with "sensors" than a metal ship of the same mass - it has a higher profile and is larger.
Wooden ships are more expensive to maintain, requiring a constant influx of new wood, pitch, and rope just to keep from being disolved by he sea.
With the singular exception of fuel consumption, a wooden ship falls in every category to a steel one. It's slower, carries less cargo, has a larger sillouette, costs more to make, costs more to maintain, requires a larger crew, and is weaker in a fight.
Unless you somehow cannot get your hands on synthetic diesel fuel to save your life (but can somehow get your hands on oak and pine tar regularly), there's no damn reason at all to go for a galleon when there are already scrap fleets of steel vessels that you could just appropriate and retrofit.
Any and all statements about building a galleon "yourself" make no sense to me because galleon production crews have historically been huge industrial affairs with hundreds of workers.
-Frank
I don't have the Pirates book but if this is true:
| QUOTE (first post) |
There is a boom of magic in most Carib states, and a full blown houngan war, and a bust on heavy industry. This would make modern, metal ships very expensive. So expensive that magically-enhanced wooden ships may suddenly become competitive. |
Then it becomes a suitable option for someone with a) limited cash, b) little access to the off-island assets, c) have lots of manual labor either through slavery/zombification or as a congregration, and d) fairly good magical assets.
For anyone else, go buy something. For people who can't buy because they have no money and even if they had money there's nothing to buy, building is the way to go. tallships may be going too far given the amount of sailcloth and rope but smaller 2-mast designs are probably achievable.
Has anyone read the liveship trilogy by Robin Hobb? It's a series that has ships with sentient and moving figureheads. It's an excellent trilogy thats part of a nine book series. It's my fave trilogy of al time. The ships however, are particularly awesome, being able to align themselves witht he water and wind to move faster than anything else in teh water (of course they weren't going up against deisel powered destroyers.)
I ran an adventure back in sr3 where the team was smuggled into England by the Purple pearl. One of the PCs was Capt. Jack Sparrow (natch) but didn't know if he was actually him or delusional. It was fun and wooden ships seem like they would have a lower signal since a major part of signal is noise. Of course the purple pearl (part of Jack's pirate family) had loads of magical support spirits to copnceal, spells for vehicle mask, spirits to speed it along etc.
I ran an adventure back in sr3 where the team was smuggled into England by the Purple pearl. One of the PCs was Capt. Jack Sparrow (natch) but didn't know if he was actually him or delusional. It was fun and wooden ships seem like they would have a lower signal since a major part of signal is noise. Of course the purple pearl (part of Jack's pirate family) had loads of magical support spirits to copnceal, spells for vehicle mask, spirits to speed it along etc.
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