I suppose the fact that it is the HEALING Table does not mean anything for you. Because they placed it where the typography allowed it rather than right in a certain section invalidates it in your eyes?

Your counter examples of adepts and implantees should be clear that a modifier that says, "Patiend has something" would not apply to natural healing because the person making the test is not a patient.

Yea, they mentioned it somewhere. Like maybe in the title of the table.

You mean to say that if someone is slashed with a knife and lays in the sewer flowing with effluent for a day they are just as able to heal as if they went to a sterile environment? Obviously the rules are there to address that, and lo and behold they called it the healing modifiers table. Not the First Aid Modifiers Table, or The Medicine Modifiers Table, it is the Healing Modifiers table.

Unfortunately the healing modifiers are not mentioned in the examples even in the case of first aid, so this is one of the places where I'm tempted to side with Demerzel on the strict wording of the rules. However, that doesn't make his arguments as to how this somehow invalidates full-conversion borgs any better; such a reading means a medkit can assist in healing rolls, and cyborg lady is more likely than most to have a good medkit on hand to help patch up her remaining meat. Toxins are still going to be a major weakness, but just because a character has a weak point like that doesn't make them in invalid character concept.

Rather, my argument is that pbangarth's example fails because it has to use a degenerate case to prove anything. The cyberlimb rules are only simple when you bend over backwards to make sure all limbs are equally as powerful, which the core rules themselves do nothing to support. (And in fact, are actively discouraged in the case of a lone cyberlimb.) Otherwise, the rules for using cyberlimbs are clunky and cumbersome, especially for the sort of new player most likely to use one of the sample templates. And clunky rules are clunky rules, no matter what sort of story you attach them to.

I dont know if I'm the only one who remembers this, but in SR3 at least Cyberlimbs cost nearly twice as much as Cloned flesh. The only advantage was time. The whole 'oh, only the destitute got cyberlimbs' never flew with me. Donno if SR4 has cloned limb rules yet, dont think it does, but I for one am going to be looking for that and other cybernetic replacement rules.

yeah, that always drove me nuts. I had a character that lost an arm at the shoulder to a troll with a combat axe. I was thinking that I needed to get a cyber arm, because he was a ganger-turned-samurai type, but the meat was so much cheaper, I had to go with that.

Sr4's limb system is remarkably easier to understand and manipulate than that damn ECU system. Plus, the only two reason ever really to get a cyberlimb was A.) Enhanced str/qui (Which was also a pain to figure out if you got different values, or which limb you were leading with...) or B.) Getting gear inside it, which was if I recall Cost*4, and then you value its ECU. Blah, much easier just to get the gear seperate. Now SR4...Whew, Capacity Points were a blessing, one that they (lord praise them) decided to use universally with all ware instead of only hearing about ECU for one thing.

But still, are C-limbs that bad in SR4? They seemed at least useful, though not needed. The only SR4 stuff I've done is one PbP and making numerous characters with chargens.

They are not bad, there are a coupple builds you can do with them for a one armed character etc. They are really for concept characters it seems. Min maxing, there's better options.

I'm not sure this really merits further discussion. I imagine you're just being contrary for the sake of contradicting me. However if you really need it spelled out.

The secion title is HEALING (See p242.) The HEALING section includes First Aid and Medicine, but it also includes HEALING. The HEALING MODIFIERS table is in that secion. But you just want to contradict and the obviousness of that is insufficient so here's some more details.

SR4 Pg.242 "Using First Aid"

Not only there, but its a virtual cut-paste under the Medicine and Stabilization sections as well bait.

Demerzel would have a very good point if the devs hadn't seen fit to point out the modifiers everytime they were talking about using a skill to heal someone else, and if the modifiers themselves weren't geared almost totally towards using a skill to heal someone else. I'm not going to crack the book open for this again, but if I remember correctly since he is throwing out any modifiers that deals with a 'patient', the only ones left involves the condiction of your suroundings plus a hefty one if you don't happen to have a medkit or other medical supplies on hand. (And the latter sounds rather fishy to apply to natural healing tests anyways even if I were convinced that I'm supposed to be using that table.)

And the more I think about the sewer example Demerzel brought up, given Shadowrun's abstract nature I think I'd be inclined to allow a healing test, but also make them resist all sorts of really nasty diseases/toxins, ect...

*sigh*

Going away for a while and then reading all the acrimony at once is an interesting experience. It gives me a perspective not available to one who stays in the argument day-to-day. Here’s what I see from that perspective. It’s a little long, sorry.

Somehow, for some people, SR’s arbitrary 200 BP character generation limit on what can be spent on Attributes has come to be perceived as a representation of reality, and what’s more, that only a few versions of how those build points can be spent are legitimate. It would seem that living breathing humanity comes in only a few standard formats, almost as if there existed ‘character classes’. The Shadows would appear in this narrow view to be populated by rational supermen, who have no flaws or weaknesses. In order to maintain this illusion, to keep us all thinking inside the same box, a straw man has been set up and then attacked. Let me address the various arguments and claims that have been directed at my attempt to use the rules as they are written to create a fun, interesting character to play.

I have been quoted (as in having words inside quote marks, meaning they are allegedly my words) as saying people are “lazy” for not figuring out how to use cyberlimbs. This is simply not true. I never said any such thing. It is clear some of you spend hours and hours working out these issues. And the discussions that come out of that work on boards such as this one can be very enlightening and helpful. What I did say, and the responses my comment and subsequent posts have received only strengthen my position, is that folks often do not go far enough in understanding how the rules can be used to make reasonable and viable characters. Instead of asking how something can be made to work, they seek to find how it can be seen to fail. Instead of looking at the role to played, they often concentrate on the rolls.

Instead, they find home fixes to make the game work the way they like. At home. In their own games. This is all fine.

What is not fine is calling people “cheat” or “abuser” or “munchkin” just because they think or see things differently. Some have taken offence where none was offered, and then replied with insults. This is puerile behaviour and I would expect to receive the same respect I afford others.

Let’s have a look at some of the actual claims about what is wrong with the character I proposed. In synopsis, I created a character who had been damaged physically, but had a keen mind and strong personality. As well, I said that the cyberlimb rules are not broken and unusable, because you can make a character who has 5’s or better in all Attributes and lots of Skills, thereby being an asset to almost any run. In retrospect, maybe I shouldn't have joined in with the number-crunching, but I did.

This character was labelled “degenerate” for two reasons. First, allegedly I put all the mental Attributes to 5 and left the physical ones at 1. There are 40 BP still available to go into physical attributes. A less strident but related version of this claim was that the remaining BP would have gone into REA, presumably because the cyberlimbs allow bumping the other Attributes. Why did no-one ask where I put those points, rather than assuming? (More on these points to come below)

Even if I had not spent those BP on some or all of the physical Attributes, why would such a being be “degenerate”? Such people exist in real life. Lots of people, and in increasing numbers, suffer from diseases that weaken the muscles but leave nerves, brain and spirit alone. These are the people for whom cyberlimbs and other implants would first be developed, only later to be adapted for use by others with a desire for power, rather than a need for freedom. Such a character is in fact one of the enduring archetypes of science fiction from the last century: “Waldo” by Robert Heinlein. Waldo’s name has even become part of the language, referring to machines built to aid feeble bodies. (See http://www.enotes.com/waldo/)

Second, the thought was expressed that creating a character with all Attributes at 5 or higher would make her super powerful and an aberration that subverts the balancing intent of the rules. How? Most players put great weight into one or two Attributes, thereby giving them a large dice pool for associated functions. Most other characters therefore would have at least one or two sets of actions that they did better than this character. She on the other hand would be a well rounded character who could adapt to and serve in many situations. None of the detractors have ever said how this would make her overshadow the other PCs, or how her numbers are unfair. What advantage does a PC with 40 – 42 points in Attributes distributed evenly have over another PC with the same number (arrived at magically, with implants, or both) distributed unevenly? Dumpshock is full of accounts of PCs with dicepools in their primary Skill in the 15-20 range. This character has none like that. Somebody else will be a better shot. Somebody else will negotiate a better contract. Somebody else will hack the electronic defences better. However, any team, with any particular skill set missing, will probably be able to fill it reasonably well with her. She even has a fair chance at doing some part of the run solo. Is that what is so scary – a balanced character? Funny how that word, balance, can be both a positive and a negative.

Yes, of course this character has weaknesses. That is exactly what makes her interesting to play. She’s lost, broke, nearly friendless, scared and vulnerable. Just the kind of person you should find in the Shadows. No matter how hard I have tried to say I am interested in the story of this person, of the reasoning and motivation behind her being where she is, detractors continue to focus on the numbers and the balance of Attributes to fit their interpretation of the rules, without ever once addressing the story issues I feel are most important. And yet I am the “munchkin”??

The primary weakness of this character that various detractors came up with was her inability to resist disease and toxins, or heal damage because her meat body has a BOD of 1. As the discussion suggested, this would be truly serious, and doom her to a short life.

A) So what? Used by a corp, abandoned by the same, she is out to finally live, before she dies. I’m happy with that. Why should some self-appointed arbiter of normalcy say this character should not be played? Who is he to determine what is right in the Shadows? Not in your campaign you say? OK.
B) Who says her BOD is 1? What about those 40 unspent BP? Putting 20 BP into each of BOD and REA creates an ‘average-physique’ character (for those who need normalcy) who has been stricken by a muscular-degenerative disease. The woman isn’t degenerate, her muscles are. The character isn’t degenerate, the closed-minded reaction to her, however, would try to have her so.
C) There are at least two ways to make the whole healing issue go away entirely: put a couple of Attribute points into the original BOD, or don’t limit yourself to a human character. I wanted her human because… well… that red hair and … umm. OK.

Such a character, born or stricken with a broken body, could just as easily and believably become a rigger, a hacker, or an astral warrior and probably more if we spent time looking for ways that broken people could become runners that work. Cyberlimbs are just one of many options available.


The BP system is designed to create characters that we want to play. If the game were set up to allow only those PCs whose natural stats were above a certain level, then the numbers would have been limited so. (In fact, they are, come to think of it. The number is 1.) The 200 BP limit is an arbitrary limit on the amount that can be spent on character creation with the purpose of insuring starting characters are not too powerful. The same rules also allow spending BP on either Magic or implants of various kinds to go well beyond that limit. The balance so many detractors claim they seek is built in. Make one aspect very strong, another suffers. What one player likes to play is different from what another one likes. This flexibility and creativity is a legitimate right and a joy of the SR system.

Thank you, toturi, for being someone who sees.

pbangarth, as the guy who called your character a "degenerate case", I stand by my position. Now, if you're so gung-ho about flushing away huge amounts of money and essence to boost your physical stats, more power to you. You could get very much the same results at a lower cost by looking into basic cyberware, or even just by being a metahuman. While your story is so much hot air, miss cyborg feels like a wasteful way of going about things. So if she's what floats your boat, more power to you.

You're still totally sidestepping my point. She's not a degenerate case because she has higher attributes than she "should", she's a degenerate case because all her limbs have the same stats. Your mission, if you chose to accept it, is to retool your character so that at least one limb has different stats from the rest, and then tell all of us it's as easy figuring out what you should roll as it would be if your character had the same set of stats throughout their whole system. Then and only then will I accept that the cyberware rules aren't unnecessarily clunky, which was my argument from the beginning. It's not so much about power as it is general playability.

Bravo Pbangarth, I completely understand your position. I find it hilarious that your interpretation and application of the rules is munchkin but someone who makes a character throwing 20+ dice in their chosen field as well as having Latent Awakening and a Spirit Pact is not. Hmm, how dualistic these boards have become. I just think its everyone here hates cyberware and would rather play a transhuman game than a cyberpunk game. Kinda odd how every "good" sammie has level 2 synaptic boosters and tons of bioware while a "bad" sammie has a set of cyberarms with gyromounts and hidden guns. Oh well, guess that'll be a mystery for the ages.

Personally, with a back story like that, I would allow you to have the build in my group simply because you based the character off an idea and had a reason for just about everything that happened to them. You didn't make her so you could throw 20+ dice per skill but you made her based off an idea in your head. Good job. I'd be glad to have you sitting at my table.

I've also noticed how ubiquitous synaptic boosters and wired reflexes are. Pretty much any combat character winds up being rubbished if they don't have this kind of initiative modifier. Obviously their high utility is offset by their high essence cost, but even so, you still see them on nigh every character.

The only real solution to this conundrum is to change how they work, such that you cannot just do everything faster than anyone else.

Synaptic boosters and wired reflexes are the only way to get more than 1 IP in combat, which is a damn good reason to have one of them installed. Changing that would mean to find a way how mundane characters can get more then 1 IP, like in SR1-3 with rolling a ini above 10.

Unfortunately Demerzel, the tendency is for players to construct a story to justify whatever they've decided to bestow on their character.

However preferable it might be for someone to have a concept and history in mind before crunching the numbers, it just doesn't happen much.

As for the full borg character previously discussed, I take solace that she hasn't got a dice pool of 20. I would feel comfortable as a GM that I could utilise her background in an interesting manner.

Got to join in on the non-munchkin side here, I'm afraid. If this character is an attempt at munchkinism, it's a poor one. There's a couple of glaring weaknesses, a few more subtle ones (social acceptance and getting through cyberware scanners for one), and although played by a competent player could be dangerous, doesn't reach the abusive levels I could reach with a troll tank.

Given the solid attempt at back story and a player that genuinely was enthusiastic about her, I'd have her in my game. This isn't to downplay all the good and valid points that some here have made against the build, but I think whether the characters origins were munchkinny or they were not, we have ended up with something that isn't too powerful and has a fairly fleshed out back-story. So good to go, I think. Game well played and peace and love time now. Everybody?

Demerzel, if you saw my post above as a personal attack against you, then I apologize. I didn't mean to come off that way with such a sweeping accusation. I just find it hard to sort through all the posts that praise people with 15+ dice pools and x bioware versus y cyberware and espouse the "benefits" of playing a magical character versus a cybered one without feeling that there are several people (not saying you directly) here who only feel that magic and bioware are the way to go. Period. Anything else is not an "optimized" build.

While we don't know if he came up with the stats and then created the backstory, it still works. Sure, it's not a perfect build, but for what he's done it's very good. Yeah, with an abusive player it could probably become a GM Carp-slapping Bovine-Dropping session but if he sat down with his GM and discussed how he wanted to play the character, the GM could make a very good campaign, or two, off just his backstory.

Again, I apologize if you felt I was attacking you personally. I didn't mean to do that.

Here's the order of thinking that went into creating Sept de Neuf:

1) I mused: I've never played a cyberlimbed character, I wonder what it's like? Why would anyone do that to themselves, rather than the less obvious and scary implants?

2) Answer: because only replacement would work. What circumstances would require that? Disease or genetics or something like it that wouldn't allow things like muscle replacement or augmentation, as those things would either be infected themselves, or have nothing to augment. This state would require full replacement of the limbs. It is true I never really thought about partial replacement, in part because I wanted to try the whole shebang, and in part because the disease thing made sense. At this point I got the idea for her name while watching Star Trek Voyager -- Seven of Nine was just the kind of lost soul with huge potential I wanted to play. And she is smart AND strong. Could I do that here?

3) What would bring such a character into the shadows? If she or her family had the money to do such expensive replacement, why would she need such a job? Fun-- slumming? Maybe, but that is a weak reason to be risking your life.

4) So, they didn't have the money, and somebody else payed for it. Why would they do that? That's how I came to the whole Ares - make old tech profitable - build an agent - she gets burned - they get cost effective and want the parts back - she cuts and runs story.

5) That's when I started building her. So her body is weak, but Ares wants her because her mental abilities are exceptional. Otherwise, why pay the money for a stupid agent? So I built all the mental traits to 5, and had 40 BP left. In any role playing game, I like to put as much into the base stats as I can. That is my 'numbers' addiction, for anyone looking to pick on my method. I had two versions of her - one with speed/initiative enhancement and one with intelligence enhancement. I tended to like the latter because I like McGuyver type characters. (And Seven of Nine.) At this point I hoped to have a fair number of skills for her, maybe all at lower level, but widespread.

6) I put in some negative qualities to represent the story elements - burned in several ways in a Hacking run, SINner because she was a corp employee (but not an official criminal yet), weak immune system because she's sick and she's gone through horrendous transformations. She was on the lam in Denver (building her for Missions) from Quebec, so: few contacts but a low level fixer and a street doc she sought out before she ran, not much equipment because she had to get out fast, a low lifestyle because she can't afford more. She has to find work soon, really soon. It's about here that I figured she would be in real trouble if she couldn't get a network of co-runners/contacts going. There was no corp anymore to care for her if she got hurt. That's why I made one contact a street doc.

7) That's when I found out to my surprise how many skills she could have. I went for a wide spread of low-level skill groups as well as individual skills. Couple the skill spread with good all around Attributes, and she turned out to be quite a useful character. None of her skills were at the level some PCs get in their specialty, but she could apply herself to any situation. Which is just what I imagined Ares would have wanted her to be -- drop her in and let her figure/fight/hack/charm her way out. I still had not decided which version of her I liked better.

At this point the discussion on Dumpshock had begun, particularly the early thread about healing that really made me think about Sept's Attributes. I had a look at the 40 BP for physical Attributes, and settled on 20 in BOD and 20 in REA for the intelligence enhanced version of Sept, using some reaction enhancement to bring that trait up to par with the rest. (Yes, the other version had all 40 BP in REA, leaving the other physical Attributes at the minimum.) 2 points more in BOD makes infinitely more sense, and doesn't wreck the 'McGuyver' idea. At this point, too, numbers and their effect guided the character creation, not the other way around.

So I went from idea to numbers to idea to numbers, with some feedback. It really wasn't one over the other, it was a combined process. There you go.