SR Companion Page 36 Regeneration Section Para 3, "Whenever a shapeshifter takes Deadly physical damage in one shot, or its cumulative damage reaches Deadly on the condition monitor, roll 1D6. On a result of 1, the shapeshifter does not regenerate, and may die if they do not receive medical care per standard rules."

I don't see an exception here for going over the overflow limit. To me, this specifically states that they don't follow the normal rules for death until they have failed their roll. If you get something else out of the same statement, then I don't think we can accomplish much by continuing to debate it.

Kagetenshi:

My statement should definitely be construed as restricted to the effect of the damage on a regenerating creature. Otherwise, dead is dead.

Me either. I see nothing that exempts them from it.

Yes, they may die if they roll a 1, but I don't see anything that says that they may not die if they roll 2-6. In fact, the earlier flavor text seems to support the notion that they are still susceptible to massive amounts of damage despite their regenerative powers.

In 3rd Edition the damage vanishes the next round after the creature got it.

So if you have some actions after the creature you can kill it with overdamage.

It says, in the same paragraph, "For any other result, the character suffers the standard combat penalties for the Combat Turn in which the damage was inflicted, but the damage vanishes at the beginning of the next Combat Turn."

Zazen:

Yes, but the book specifically deals with that and the shapeshifter has a higher chance of dying in that case, dying on a 1 or 2.

Rock-Steady:

Quite a few of us have argued that simple overdamage doesn't kill a shapeshifter.

Nothing wrong with that.

But i dont agree.

You've slightly misquoted the text. It says "For any other result the character suffers the standard damage(not combat) penalties for the Combat Turn in which the damage was inflicted..."

Note that a standard penalty associated with taking your body rating in overdamage is death.

Correct, which unless the magic number was rolled, all that damage vanishes at the beginning of the next turn.

Yes, but he's arguing that the death effect is one which cannot be reversed.

He may well be right, too.

Thats the point.

In the next round. The critter still has the damage if it gets more damage, so it must be dead if the damage exceeds its body rating.

If the round ends before the critter can receive more damage its lucky. *g*

Btw

The german critter states that they dont regenerate stun damage.

I like two different rules....

[edit]

Spelling

I'm sorry, missed that one. . .

Zazen:

Yes, I don't think that anyone ever argued that if you FAIL the roll and have more than your body in overdamage you will not die, simply that if you MAKE the roll you don't die. . .

I don't really think there is any real point in continuing to argue this issue, no one is going to change their mind without an official ruling.

Any chance you could print up the full text, preferably translated in English?

ta.

Please reread my post, and the book quote in particular. It's talking about what happens when you make the roll.

And what, praytell, is an "official ruling"?

And it says that those standard penalties disappear. . .

No, he mayn't be. Nowhere in the rules does it say that death cannot be regenerated from, merely that a failed regeneration roll can result in death.

~J

There is a vast difference between "may be right" and "is right". Death in Shadowrun is a very final thing and magic can't generally get you back from it. Do you allow someone at body + 1 overflow to come back with anything other than regeneration? What if someone hits them with a heal or stabilize spell before the end of the pass?

If you don't allow that, it follows that regeneration shouldn't, either. After all, another kind of magic is healing the damage before the turn is over, and the PC is only suffering the effects of those wounds for the duration of the turn... Is death an effect that magic can reverse?

[edit] Heh, turns out this was my "running target" post. Not that it matters, or anything. [/edit]

Sorry dont own the german one personally.

[Update]

Ok my friend and me got it wrong. He though that we talked about the compendium (which states that PC shapeshifters can only regenerate physical damage).

The german critter says damage (regardless if stun or physical) too.

It doesn't matter what the respective rules for the two types of healing are. What's important is the question:

"Once death has been suffered as a wound effect, can it be reversed if the damage is removed?"

The shapeshifter entry specificly says that the creatures suffers wound penalties until the end of the turn. Death certainly qualifies as a "wound penalty". Following this train of thought, if a shapeshifter suffers the death penalty, can they come back? The rules do not specificly address this (hell, the word "overflow" doesn't even exist in the regeneration section of shapeshifter entry).

And the opposing viewpoint is, it specifically states that death is not suffered if that roll is not failed. Nothing is bringing him back from the dead, because by making that roll he did not die.

I propose that death is not a "would penalty" the wound penalty are the specific penalties at light, moderate, serious, and deadly. Death ends all wound penalties. It says they die only if that roll is not made, otherwise they regenerate.

It doesn't do any good to argue about this. It's not directly addresses and everyone is going to do what they want anyway. It's ambiguous enough depending on what you infer we can all be right or we can all be wrong.

True. The thing is, the rules are silent on damage past deadly, and all of it is moot. However, I was initiatlly arguing against someone saying that the "overdamage = death" argument couldn't be true.

It really could go either way. The sticking point is the delay between the regenerate roll and the time when it actually heals the damage. The way I would fix it in my game (provided I ever had a shape shifter player or NPC where it was important):

When damage reaches or exceeds deadly, the d6 roll is made. If it succeeds, all damage is immediately healed, though wound penalties apply till the start of the next combat round. If the damage was sufficient to reach body + 1 overflow, the damage counts as massive trauma and the regenerate roll fails on 1 & 2, regulardless of the specific nature of the damage. In all other respects, the power works as written.

It doesn't actually say that anywhere, though.

Nor does it say that. It says they may die if the roll is not made, this is not the same as saying that they may only die if the roll is not made.



I see two arguments so far: that death can be reversed via regeneration, and that the "damage penalties" mentioned in the text refer only to target number and initiative penalties, not to other peripheral effects such as death.

If you say that death may be reversed by regeneration, then why must shapeshifters ever die? After a failed roll a comrade can hit their corpse with another hunk of deadly damage and they've got another chance to wake up. They make the test every time they take deadly damage in one shot and dying doesn't affect their ability to regenerate, so shifters should be easily revivable any time after death.

If you say that the "damage penalty" only applies to TN and initiative penalties, then I ask: do you allow a shifter who makes his roll to use the Quick Strike adept power for the rest of the turn? They've taken assloads of damage (which remains until the turn is over), but they are, under this notion, immune to any effects of their damage other than target number and initiative penalties. They should be able to use Quick Strike despite their massive gushing wounds.

Actually, I see two different arguements:
1) The book does say something;
2) The book doesn't say something.

The problem is the rules are fragged up, and people are making guesses that are completely off the wall in a feeble attempt to support their claims.

This'll piss several people off I'm sure, but here's an example.
I'm not gay. Has anyone else said they're not gay on DSF, (and if you have, hey, you're exempt!) That means everyone else on DSF must be gay right? I mean, they didn't say they weren't gay, right?! (This is an extreme example, and is just that, an example to prove my point. DON'T READ TOO FAR BETWEEN THE LINES!)

On the other side of the coin, what the book does say is indeed incomplete; it doesn't give enough information to account for the majority of the situations Shifters will find themselves in with their Regeneration power.

Right now I'm having to say that there are too many holes in the rules to run a Shapeshifter character without several houserules. Of course, if someone as a GM isn't willing to houserul Shifters as they see fit, they shouldn't let them run.

I think that's all it comes down to.