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pbangarth
Edit: Call a shot on a wide burst. Sounds freaky and counterintuitive, I know.
pestulens
RAW doesn't forbid it but I've never meat a GM who would let that stand.
Clyde
I'd let that stand. Just my 2 nuyen.gif
Narmio
It would sound and look pretty stupid, but then so does our Sam, so that's not a compelling argument against inclusion. I'd reluctantly allow it.

I have changed called shot for damage to -2 per +1 DV, though. Still good against wimps, flatfoots and big trolls, but not the fight-ender it was before.
Eddie Furious Redux
QUOTE (Kazum)
Well i haven't had the opportunity to play SR4 til now, but the problem was the same in SR3, i suppose. No One ever took an SMG.... But that was mainly my fault as a GM. I think the "readying" rule is quite good, i may use this. Another thing is: When you are crawling in narrow spaces like canalisations, tubes [...] a big weapon like an assault rifle or a shotgun could easily make you stuck there or just makes movement there difficult. That woult be a reason to take an smaller gun.

I have to disagree with this bit. When I was in the Infantry we used to lug our assault rifles down very small, claustrophobic tunnels that were just wide and tall enough for your average Soldier wearing Battle Order to crawl down them in FIBUA/CQB training (MOUT/CQB for the American Servicemen). We didn't like it, but we could do it. Basically the issue comes down to concealability what with the easy ways to solve assault rifle length and size issues in close environments (C7A2 with its 6 position stock comes to mind, when I was in we would just rest the stock over our shoulder for room clearing). Of course the "six-poz" was adopted mainly for fitting in and out of APC doors and to compensate for the thickness of body armour, but Infantry always find at least three uses for each bit 'o' kit, or else it's considered "under utilized". wink.gif

As far as the SMG istself being less or more, sure you could hide it and it would be a bit faster into action from "stand easy", but really the big plus is the fact that the current batch of pistol calibre SMGs apparently have better penetration and stability than the super short barrelled (10.5 inch and less) ARs used in their stead. Regardless, I am not volunteering to stand in front of either!

SMGs do have a role to play, just more for police/CT/Covert work than battlefield applications.
MaxHunter
I have enjoyed this thread enormously!!! Really good points.

In our groups' game, the difference between smgs and assault rifles is more psychological than just rules.

SMG= urban combat where I expect heavy opposition. May be concealed until the drek hits the fan. "These yakuza with katanas and smgs are going to be tough."

Assault Rifle=battlefield, all pulls are off. Concealment is unimportant because grenades don't have sound suppresion. "We might want to avoid these APCs and storm the village to rescue the doctor from all those shedim before the air strike arrives."

Both quotes from past games. Pistols are the most common weapon used.

Cheers
Vvornth
One thing that people tend to forget is that Assault rifles with their larger cartridges generally (not a rule) are louder than SMGs. Sound overall is something that is commonly forgotten in RPGs.
kzt
QUOTE (Vvornth)
Sound overall is something that is commonly forgotten in RPGs.

Outdoors, gunfire is loud and will screw up your hearing over time. Inside a building all gunfire is painfully loud. Assault rifles are much louder, but after the first few rounds of gunfire nobody is hearing anything for a while. With assault rifles you are more likely to get seriously screwed up permanently, but they are all bad.

Smart shadowrunners invest in low profile ear protection that they can leave in all the time. Like these: Electronic Earplugs

The guy I know who uses these walks around shooters all day without any issues outdoors, but does add muffs indoors as the indoor sound is so much louder that he's worried about long term damage when running classes through shoot houses.
ornot
Those can be made in SR4. Just get earbuds or headphones with select sound filters. I wouldn't grant them the +2 bonus to resist sonic damage offered by implanted dampeners though.
TheOneRonin
QUOTE (kzt)
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk @ Mar 16 2007, 07:08 AM)
So what can be done to give the SMGs back a viable niche and not make them inferior to assault rifles in every way?

The reality is that they are inferior to assault rifles in every way. (Other then concealability, or where you need a round that has less destructive terminal ballistics than the typical intermediate rifle round. As an example of this, consider a shootout on a submarine.) Their inferiority is why fewer and fewer tactical teams use them as primary weapons. So you don't need to fix anything.

Pat Rogers has an article on this topic in the current issue of SWAT. He points out that they are a lot cooler looking and more fun to shoot, but in practical terms they are a poor choice unless you fall into a few special cases.



With one of those special cases being the need for sound suppression. A truly suppressed rifle firing subsonic 5.56x45mm ammo will be pushing a ~62 grain projectile at around 1000fps. Compare that to conventional M855 ammunition, pushing a 62 grain projectile at about 3000fps. At that low velocity, the projectile is not very likely to fragment at all, which will result in a very narrow permanent wound cavity.

On the flip side, try suppressing a .45 ACP SMG, like the HK UMP. Your 230grain ammuntion will still only have about 990fps of muzzle velocity out of a 8" barrel...that's still in the subsonic range. Since the projectile is already subsonic, you don't need to use velocity controlled ammunition when fitting the UMP with a can. Quiet as can be, and quite lethal against unarmored targets. And still a good bit shorter than an M4 w/ a can.

There is still a significant niche for SMGs, moreso in the shadows. And especially if you need to be quiet.
kzt
QUOTE (TheOneRonin)
With one of those special cases being the need for sound suppression. A truly suppressed rifle firing subsonic 5.56x45mm ammo will be pushing a ~62 grain projectile at around 1000fps.

As far as I know, nobody expects assault rifles suppressors to be be really silent. The marketing literature is mostly focused on reducing the potential for hearing damage and getting more effective communication due to not having to scream. As a secondary effect they also make it much harder to locate the shooter by sound or muzzle flash. They are designed to fire normal ammo.

I'm not sure if you could get a standard AR to run on subsonic ammo, that's a huge change to a very complex harmonic system. If you wanted that I'd suggest silencing a 22 rifle, because that's about what you have.

But I think the USMC also keeps some of the colt 9mm suppressed AR-15s around for those sorts of jobs, but they were found to be pretty useless past 100 meters.
pestulens
Well I don't think hearing loss was the original concern with SMGs being quieter than ARs. Of corse for stealth purposes, without suppression both are arbitrarily loud (firing of a streatline special tells evereone in 3 blocks where you are and what is going on).
Silent is a relative term when it coms to guns. You may not know where the shooter is (more than half the point) and you may not even identify the noes as a gunshot but it is still clearly audible if not out and out LOUD.
Fix-it
[QUOTE=kzt,Mar 19 2007, 08:01 PM] [QUOTE=TheOneRonin,Mar 19 2007, 12:48 PM]
I'm not sure if you could get a standard AR to run on subsonic ammo, that's a huge change to a very complex harmonic system. If you wanted that I'd suggest silencing a 22 rifle, because that's about what you have. [/QUOTE]
You can. it's called ".300 whisper"

subsonic round approx comparable to a .45

shorter range, obviously. but a lot quieter..300 whisper

obviously not standard. but w/e.

I'm sure you could underload a 5.56 and use a silencer to get a quieter round, but you'd have cycling problems. especially on standard m4s/16s

stupid direct impingement system,

short stroke piston FTW
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