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Moon-Hawk
What are they good for?
This is sort of a spin-off from my XM-30 thread the other day. I had always thought that SMGs got a "free" point of recoil compensation since they got a point for using a stock, where as assault rifles are assumed to use a stock but don't get anything for it. I figured weaker shots = easier to control.
But then it was pointed out to me that shock pads don't work on SMGs. Well hell, that means SMGs can get up to 1 point of RC from their stock (but not 2 from a stock + shock pad), and assault rifles can get up to 1 point of RC from their stock (by adding a cheapy-cheap shock pad) so they're effectively identical in that respect.
So aside from DV:5P AP:0 vs. DV:6P AP:-1, a pretty clear win for the assault rifle, what is there to give SMGs a viable niche?
SMGs only give a +4 to concealability whereas assault rifles give +6, but is two dice really making that big of a difference? If you're trying to be sneaky, the SMG is not sneaky enough, not even under a long coat. If you're not trying to be sneaky, then who cares?

As I understand it (and please feel free to correct me, I have never been in a gunfight or ever shot anything more rapidly than semi-auto) the role of SMG is for urban combat where ranges are typically short and the weapon needs to be easy to handle and aim quickly in potentially close quarters, such as indoors. An assault rifle is just too dang awkward in some of these situations if you're going through doors, around corners, and climbing over rubble. (There was a thread about this a little while ago too, but it kind of went off in a different direction, IIRC)
Unfortunately, there is nothing like that in the rules.

So what can be done to give the SMGs back a viable niche and not make them inferior to assault rifles in every way?

I have an idea, tell me if this is stupid: If someone has been doing something (movement tests like climbing over debris or sprinting), or has just opened a door and found someone behind it (as opposed to having a teammate open the door for him), or is simply surprised, the GM is being reasonable to require a ready-weapon action for an assault rifle, sniper rifle, etc, but should waive that requirement for SMGs, pistols, etc. since they're smaller and easier to bring to bear quickly. Obviously if someone else is opening doors for you while you hold the assault rifle to your shoulder this doesn't apply. This isn't exactly a house-rule, since I'm not changing or contradicting anything explicitly printed, it's just sort of an "interpretation" of the existing rules. I think.
My other idea is to just let shock pads work on SMGs.

So what do we think? Do the rules already give SMGs a viable niche and I'm just missing it? Is there an "interpretation" like my idea above that makes them more consistent with their RL role?
Thanks.
deek
Based on RAW, you can fire two SMGs at the same time, something you cannot do with assault rifles...I think that is a pretty big difference that gives the SMG a little bit less inferiority, yes?

So, you have the ability to fire two at the same time and a little better concealability rating in favor of SMGs.

And really, you could make the argument on the flip side that the extra point of DV and -1 AP is not a "huge" difference...obviously, more is better, but those single points, for me, then fall into the realm of being personal preference on weapon styles. Some people are going to pick up an SMG because of its "cool" factor and not worry about the extra point. Obviously, a munchkin will have a problem doing this.

So, not much more, but that is a little something extra in favor of SMGs.
Moon-Hawk
So I may be overestimating the importance of the damage difference? Interesting point.

I had completely forgotten about the dual-wielding issue. Maybe some part of my brain did that on purpose, though. wink.gif

I'm not entirely convinced yet, but definitely some good points.
cristomeyers
Fluff-wise, at least, in my opinion, you're far more likely to come across SMG wielding guards on compounds than assault rifle wielding ones for the reasons you mentioned earlier: SMG's are designed for urban combat. They are also cheaper and don't lose much punch compared to the assualt rifle.

Rules wise, yeah, the assault rifle is kind of a no-brainer. I think this is something that pretty much has to be dealt with via GM because the rules just don't really account for the pros and cons of SMG vs assault rifle very well.
DireRadiant
Why stop at assault rifles? Might as well carry a LMG or better right? More range.
toturi
There are no Avail F SMGs. SMGs are on the average cheaper. A longcoat reduces the +4 for SMGs to a +2(not quite 1 hit, if taking the 4 dice = 1 hit), but Assault Rifles still give 1 free hit.

Fix-it
Cheap.
Concealable
Disposable (cheap)
Spike
Since we don't have any rules governing weildiness of weapons, the real advantages of SMGs should ideally remain concealability and availability. The difference is too small as it stands in the concealability.

Ideally you don't really want an SMG with a stock, that makes it more of an underpowered assault rifle, and we already know they can't really compete on that level.

Moon-Hawk
Well that's why I was thinking that it might be reasonable for a GM to call for Ready Weapon actions with large weapons and ignore them for small weapons to account for "wieldiness". Basically, a pistol or SMG is considered ready if it is in your hand, but a rifle needs to be held up to the shoulder to be considered "ready", holding it in one hand while you open a door or just walking around with it relaxed in both hands doesn't count as "ready."
Sure, you could probably "quickdraw" it with a pretty low threshold (2 as though in a quickdraw holster, or maybe even 1), but at least that aspect is there.
It's not exactly a house rule, just an interpretation of the definition of "readiness", which is never super-well-defined in the book. Okay, maybe it's a house rule, but you see my point, I hope.
Might that be a good way to simulate wieldiness?
Kazum
Well i haven't had the opportunity to play SR4 til now, but the problem was the same in SR3, i suppose. No One ever took an SMG.... But that was mainly my fault as a GM. I think the "readying" rule is quite good, i may use this. Another thing is: When you are crawling in narrow spaces like canalisations, tubes [...] a big weapon like an assault rifle or a shotgun could easily make you stuck there or just makes movement there difficult. That woult be a reason to take an smaller gun.
imperialus
I house ruled that Sound Suppressors can't be attached to anything larger than an SMG. Made them significantly more useful. AR's are good for stand up fights in the middle of redmond but if you're crawling through vents trying to bypass a security station then the SMG is going to be a lot easier to lug around than an Ares Alpha.
deek
Well, you can't Quick Draw anything bigger than a pistol-sized weapon, so unless you give SMGs the benefit of using that rule (which could be good idea to balance)...

The Ready Weapon action is already in SR4, but I don't know how widely it is used. There are several actions that revolve around combat that many may not use, but you should always have to ready your weapon with a simple action before just firing it off.

So, if you house-ruled the SMG into allowing Quick Draw, then you could get an extra simple action in the first IP which wouldn't be available to an assault rifle...I think that fits in the "wieldiness" category.

I have often contemplated imperialus' rule on suppression...it'd make SMGs a little better in that regard.

Again, I think we all need to keep in context that the only difference you basically have is a DV and AP of 1, so you probably don't want to stack too many house-rules on SMGs.

Oddly enough (at least by a couple of prior responses), I have not had any players stray away from SMGs. Most like the idea of pistols and a few step up to SMGs if they want something more powerful. I don't think I have ever had a player get into assault rifles...and even if they found some, I'd think they would just sell them. The group I run for really like to keep a low profile and even with a pistol, add the right ammo and you are still doing a ton of damage with good rolls, so then I think it ends up being more a style issue than just squeezing out an extra point of DV...
Ed_209a
Off the top of my head, perhaps SMGs should get more benefits for sound suppression, since there are many more practical subsonic pistol rounds than rifle rounds. Or take SMGs as the benchmark and reduce suppression bonuses for larger weapons.

SMGs should be more controllable than ARs. I like the idea of giving SMGs free RC, though I'm not gonna say how much is right w/o more thought.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Ed_209a)
I like the idea of giving SMGs free RC, though I'm not gonna say how much is right w/o more thought.

Well you could always just go with what I have been mistakenly believing. Just let them use shock pads.

Hey, could SMGs use shock pads in previous editions? Anyone know? Have I always been wrong in allowing it, or is my wrongness a recent development due to edition change?
Thanee
Concealability is the biggest bonus over Assault Rifles.

They pack (almost) the punch of a full AR, while they are reasonably small still.
While you can't put them into your pocket, you can easily hide them in a backpack or briefcase.

Best weapon type in the book, if you ask me.

Bye
Thanee
Jaid
well, unless you consider an SMG to be a "heavy automatic weapon", it's looking like SR3 didn't allow it. at least, not in the basic book anyways.

don't know about SR2 or SR1 (would that be just SR? i mean, it's not like they called it SR1 when it came out or anything...), but it seems weapon accessories do change... the SR3 gas vent could be placed into any kind of gun, AFAICT, whereas you can only install it into machine pistols, SMGs, assault rifles, and machine guns in SR4.
Spike
I don't have my book handy to look up 'ready weapon' actions, but that would be a solution. It is possible to walk around with an Assault rifle at the ready, but it's next to impossible to perform any other action. As most SMG's are designed to be useable one handed (though not necessarily recommended), this leaves the other hand available to do 'other things' without unreadying the weapon.

If I get stuck GMing SR rather than playing it, I can see the looks of frustration now on my players faces as I ask them to spend their first combat action 'readying' their bulky rifles all the time... biggrin.gif
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Spike)
I don't have my book handy to look up 'ready weapon' actions, but that would be a solution.

QUOTE (SR4 pg.137)
Ready Weapon
A character may ready a weapon by spending
a Simple Action. The weapon may be a firearm,
melee weapon, throwing weapon, ranged
weapon, or mounted or vehicular weapon.
Readying entails drawing a firearm from a holster,
drawing a throwing or melee weapon from
a sheath, picking up any kind of weapon, nocking an arrow in a
bow, or generally preparing any kind of weapon for use. A weapon
must be ready before it can be used.
A character can ready a number of small throwing weapons,
such as throwing knives or shuriken, equal to one-half his
Agility (round down) per Ready Weapon action.


It's a bit of a stretch of the Ready Weapon action, but not too much.
Hida Tsuzua
What about modifying the shooting in melee rules? Make the penalty is greater for Assault Rifles and less so for SMGs and pistols. Then rule that two people at extreme close quarters and actively defending themselves (i.e. still get to roll their defense) counts for "shooting in melee." That way SMGs are good choice for close quarter combat.
Spike
I don't think that's a stretch at all. In fact, many of the weirder wilder stories about over the top shadowrunning could probably be ignored by simply applying that 'ready weapon' rule.

Want to throw a grenade? ready it.

Want to switch from your poncy pistol to a manly assualt rifle? Ready it and then some!

I know I am guilty of lazily allowing players to stomp around swaping weapons left right and inbetween, but recently I've been following this sort of rule much more closely, and the games are actually more fun for everyone. It can make a challenge out of an otherwise easy fight.
deek
QUOTE (Spike)
I don't think that's a stretch at all. In fact, many of the weirder wilder stories about over the top shadowrunning could probably be ignored by simply applying that 'ready weapon' rule.

Want to throw a grenade? ready it.

Want to switch from your poncy pistol to a manly assualt rifle? Ready it and then some!

I know I am guilty of lazily allowing players to stomp around swaping weapons left right and inbetween, but recently I've been following this sort of rule much more closely, and the games are actually more fun for everyone. It can make a challenge out of an otherwise easy fight.

I agree...the Ready Weapon action doesn't seem like a big deal, but once you start using it, it really does add to the game. With most of my players already having 2-3 IPs anyways, this extra simple action does make combat a bit more strategic (which is good, IMO).

Good use of enforcing Free, Simple and Complex actions actually brings combat a little more down to earth versus letting players just fire through their clips and never have to worry about non-shooting actions during combat.
Jack Kain
Except for the AK-97 and the FN HAR all the assault rifles are all forbidden while the SMGs are restricted.
Remember not all guns are created equal, different jobs would require different levels of firepower.

And going one handed is of great use. While A troll may be able to fire an Aries Alpha one handed its unlikely a human will be able to and having a free hand to hold a melee weapon is useful. Or maybe a free hand to open a door hold on to a ladder etc.


Take a look at the Igrim Smartgun X
SMG built in smartlink, gas vent AND sound suppressor. It has a innate recoil of 2(3)
The HK 227X also has a built in gas vent system and sound suppressor.

Several of the SMGs come with a lot of free accessories and are still cheaper then assault rifles.
Hell the sound suppressor is illegal in SR and yet you can get them legally on many SMG's

Mistwalker
QUOTE (Jack Kain)
Hell the sound suppressor is illegal in SR and yet you can get them legally on many SMG's

That is due to noise bylaw regulations biggrin.gif
Clyde
It's also a bit "realistic" that SMGs don't have a lot of advantages over assault rifles on paper. Real life units are switching to very short barreled assault rifles in place of the smgs they'd previously used to get more firepower. Really, the SMG's days as a battlefield weapon were over in World War II - the invention of the assault rifle superseded them.

Speaking personally, I really like the "Ready Weapon" idea. Your assault rifle/grenade launcher/sniper rifle won't be ready if you have to squeeze it through a doorway or ventilation shaft, get our of your car with it, etc. The SMG, on the other hand, will be good to go. Dual wielding/One handed wielding is a nice plus, as well.

In games I've run, the SMG has proven to be pretty popular. It conceals well enough (long coat, partial light, etc.) and it's got plenty of punch with the ability to provide practical suppressive fire. The assault rifles are just too big, while the machine pistols lack range and punch. The low cost and free accessories help, too.
X-Kalibur
I'd argue that grenades are another benefit of the SMG as well. Because you can wield it one-handed, you can use the other hand to lob a grenade without having to "unready" the weapon. I'm a big fan of grenades though.
Thanee
Ares Alpha wink.gif

Bye
Thanee
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Thanee)
Ares Alpha wink.gif

Bye
Thanee

Also and F legality code and good luck hiding it. Compare it to hiding an SMG or Machine Pistol and some grenades.
pestulens
QUOTE (X-Kalibur)
I'd argue that grenades are another benefit of the SMG as well. Because you can wield it one-handed, you can use the other hand to lob a grenade without having to "unready" the weapon. I'm a big fan of grenades though.

But most ar's have a grenade launcher anyway.
as a side note, do you use the heavy weapons skill for undermounted grenade launchers?
automatics doesn't make seance but strictly speaking that is wat RAW seas.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (pestulens)
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Mar 16 2007, 05:21 PM)
I'd argue that grenades are another benefit of the SMG as well. Because you can wield it one-handed, you can use the other hand to lob a grenade without having to "unready" the weapon. I'm a big fan of grenades though.

But most ar's have a grenade launcher anyway.
as a side note, do you use the heavy weapons skill for undermounted grenade launchers?
automatics doesn't make seance but strictly speaking that is wat RAW seas.

But the underbarrel grenade launcher cannot choose between firing out a fragmentation, high explosive, flashbang, smoke, or thermal smoke grenade. It's all about having options.

Although maybe what we need is subsonic ammo for pistols and SMGs (that aren't obviously chambered for rifle rounds, IE the AK-97 and the XM-30 Carbine) that gives a +AP but gives even further penalties to listen checks against it.
Glyph
According to RAW, you do use the Heavy Weapons skill for grenade launchers.
Narmio
While I'm not a gun nut and can't comment on the realism, I like the idea of subsonic pistol (&SMG, obviously) ammo. +2AP, 30Y or so, +2 or even +4 against perception checks.
kzt
QUOTE (Moon-Hawk)
So what can be done to give the SMGs back a viable niche and not make them inferior to assault rifles in every way?

The reality is that they are inferior to assault rifles in every way. (Other then concealability, or where you need a round that has less destructive terminal ballistics than the typical intermediate rifle round. As an example of this, consider a shootout on a submarine.) Their inferiority is why fewer and fewer tactical teams use them as primary weapons. So you don't need to fix anything.

Pat Rogers has an article on this topic in the current issue of SWAT. He points out that they are a lot cooler looking and more fun to shoot, but in practical terms they are a poor choice unless you fall into a few special cases.

kzt
QUOTE (imperialus)
I house ruled that Sound Suppressors can't be attached to anything larger than an SMG.  Made them significantly more useful.  AR's are good for stand up fights in the middle of redmond but if you're crawling through vents trying to bypass a security station then the SMG is going to be a lot easier to lug around than an Ares Alpha.

You can rule that, but it isn't true.

Sound Suppresors for ARs and MMGs.

I would agree that silenced SMGs can be very effective indeed, much quieter overall than a rifle firing supersonic bullets.


And the Alpha is a bullpup. So you're looking at a 26-30 inch long gun, vs 22-31 inches for a silenced MP-5 SMG (depending on model). It's not going to hide in a briefcase like some of the mini-SMGs, but you can hide it or carry it just as easily as an SMG.
Jack Kain
Instead of denying them to assault rifles make them less effective -3 to perception instead of -4 when applied to assault rifles.
Thanee
QUOTE (X-Kalibur)
Compare it to hiding an SMG or Machine Pistol and some grenades.

Hey, that's my argument!!

(Was just commenting on the free hand... wink.gif)

Bye
Thanee
sunnyside
While the rules don't lay it all down, you as the GM are responsible for making sure your players don't try concealing assault rifles in bikinis. Now that's an extreme example, but you also aren't hiding an assault rifle in a jacket. You could conceal one in a long coat....

But then try sitting down.

Plus a long coat has a worse armor value.

Also it should take a higher degree of success for people to detect SMGs as SMGs. If you just make the threshold you'd know that there is something gunlike there, but you couldn't tell it isn't just the heavy pistol that guy has a permit for(for the Uzi type SMGs). Whereas with an assault rifle you'd know they have something that would have to be a rifle/shotgun/grenade launcher and it's time to call security.

In short if your adventure is a dungeon crawl in disguise assault rifles might be the weapon of choice. If it's the more cloak and daggery stuff that SR excells at than SMGs are in order.
6thDragon
The one trend in military/law enforcement nowdays is the use of carbines, which shadowrun does not include at all. Currently the US Army is heavily using the M4 carbine because of ease of use in urban environments. Carbines have a marginally reduced range and stopping power compared to an Assult Rifle, but greatly exceed that of a SMG. They also use the same ammo as Assult Rifles. I liked the old SR3 rules for creating your own firearms because these were easy to create simply give it a reduced barrel, concealabilty, and certainly don't give in an increase in power. However the creat-your-own gun rules where horribly subject to abuse and just about every GM I know banned them when SR3 was still played. But they were valuable for GMs to creat new guns for release on the open market in their campaigns. Hopefully in the Arsenal book, which is upcoming, they will include carbines. Anyone have any insight on this?
pestulens
A side note, is autofire really worth it? A narrow burst gives you almost exactly the same benefit as a called shot so fore a skilled user that is probably the better option.
Of corse you can't use rc on a called shot and it takes up a free action but on the other hand penaltys don't carry over to the next shot and you can use it to get through armor witch you can't do with atofire.
Even flachet rondos give you the same damage mod as a short burst without a dicepool penalty.
Clyde
Recoil compensation cancels out the penalties on a short, narrow burst. It doesn't cancel out called shot penalties. Wide bursts may be the best way of putting some damage on a lot of opponents: high reaction types or folks going full defense. Better to hit for a little damage than to miss.

Shadowrun SMGs may not be 9mm, either. They may be more akin to PDWs like the P90 or H&K MP7. There may be a place in a modern arsenal for a compact, intermediate power weapon provided armor penetration is possible. Current generation, 9mm SMGs can be stopped by Level III or IIIA body armor (which is soft armor - no plates). Shadowrun SMGs, on the other hand, seem to have little trouble ripping you up despite your armored vest.
Austere Emancipator
Level IIIA is the heaviest, as well as by far the most common, type of flexible body armor and can, as you say, defeat any non-armor piercing 9x19mm loads even from long barrels. Level III is rigid body armor rated to defeat 5.56x45mm M855 FMJs, 7.62x51mm M80 FMJs, 12 gauge slugs and various other rifle loads -- and, obviously, anything you're going to fire out of a P90 or MP7.

BTW, could we all together agree not to use the term "stopping power" when it comes to small arms? When talking about wounds caused in humans and lethality, I figure using the words "wounds" and "lethal" is the best bet.
Fix-it
QUOTE
I figure using the words "wounds" and "lethal" is the best bet.


it's worthless argument anyway, you can't tell how many or what kind of bullets it's going to take to kill someone. until you actually shoot them, it's completely unknown.
Austere Emancipator
Big wounds kill people sooner, on average. Optimally it'd be best to talk only about the wounds, and even then give qualifiers for what part of what kind of human is hit at what angle at what range, but at least there's some logic in saying that a .308 150gr JHP at 2800fps is, ceteris paribus, more lethal than a 7.62x39mm 123gr FMJ at 2350fps. "Stopping power" is just bullshit.
Ed_209a
An awful lot of "stopping power" is the victim simply fainting or going into shock after being hit. The human body is marvelous at sabotaging itself.

The only I know to model that in SR4 is for all gunshot wounds to have a Body-resisted component that does physical damage, and a Willpower-resisted component that does stun damage.

I'd port to another system before I went to all that bother.
kzt
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Mar 17 2007, 05:31 PM)
"Stopping power" is just bullshit.

Blowing someone to shreds with a 25mm+ HE round tends to be pretty effective at stopping them. Below that it's largely bullet placement, luck as to what got hit as the bullet passed through the person, and the motivation of the guy who got shot. Big wound channels tend to be luckier than tiny wound channels, but it's probably the least important factor (within rational limits anyhow).
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (kzt)
Blowing someone to shreds with a 25mm+ HE round tends to be pretty effective at stopping them.

As killing someone usually is. smile.gif
kzt
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
As killing someone usually is. smile.gif

Some people take a while to figure out that they are dead, and that can result in a suboptimal outcome. For example, Micheal Platt in a famous gunfight, who took at least 2 unsurvivable wounds before charging and shooting 3 FBI agents (including one of the two who had fatally wounded him) before getting incapacitated by a head shot. That's the critical difference between physiological incapacitation (what most people mean by "stopping power") and lethality.

So, no, killing them isn't always sufficient. frown.gif
Austere Emancipator
Having a fatal wound does not equal being dead. Do you disagree that people who are brain dead are not by definition effective combatants?
kzt
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Having a fatal wound does not equal being dead. Do you disagree that people who are brain dead are not by definition effective combatants?

In Shadowrun, or in real life? cool.gif
Ed_209a
Just noticed this...

QUOTE (pestulens)
A side note, is autofire really worth it? A narrow burst gives you almost exactly the same benefit as a called shot so fore a skilled user that is probably the better option.


I ran into this exact situation in my last game session. I used to think the same thing myself. My char started trying out -4 die/+4 DV called shots, and the target dodged all of them because he was getting more successes on his reaction check than I did on my reaction+firearms-mods check.

True, I would have ripped him up if I hit with a -4 die/+4 DV called shot, but I had to hit first.

From now on I will save my called shots for sluggish or unaware targets. Everyone else gets bursts, because ammo is cheaper than medical care.

pbangarth
QUOTE (Ed_209a)
Just noticed this...

QUOTE (pestulens)
A side note, is autofire really worth it? A narrow burst gives you almost exactly the same benefit as a called shot so fore a skilled user that is probably the better option.


I ran into this exact situation in my last game session. I used to think the same thing myself. My char started trying out -4 die/+4 DV called shots, and the target dodged all of them because he was getting more successes on his reaction check than I did on my reaction+firearms-mods check.

True, I would have ripped him up if I hit with a -4 die/+4 DV called shot, but I had to hit first.

From now on I will save my called shots for sluggish or unaware targets. Everyone else gets bursts, because ammo is cheaper than medical care.

So why not call a shot on a burst?
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