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Grinder
During SR1-3 a character could boost his dicepool of 2 times it's size, with karmapool or combat pool. If a char used the firearms skill and could throw 6 dices, he could buy up to another 6, but not more.

Edge isn't restricted in that way: A character with Charisma 1 and Edge 7 could spend all 7 Edge dices for a charisma-based test.

So in our group the discussion arose if we should cap Edge the way karmapool and other pools were capped in previous editions.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Grinder)
If a char used the firearms skill and could throw 6 dices, he could buy up to another 6, but not more.

IIRC, that limitation did not exist for any use of karma pool.
The Entropic Wizard
I think that's how it's supposed to be. I mean, on the Charisma test, he's only rolling 8 dice. At that level, any face character should be rolling almost twice that, so he's still got the edge over Mr. I-Use-Edge-For-Things-I-Needn't-Do. biggrin.gif

Grinder
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (Grinder @ Mar 19 2007, 12:40 PM)
If a char used the firearms skill and could throw 6 dices, he could buy up to another 6, but not more.

IIRC, that limitation did not exist for any use of karma pool.

Really? Could be a houserule then.
ornot
I don't see anything broken in the Edge rules. Sure you can boost your social dice pool by 7 in your example, but you are paying for that Edge with BPs or karma, much as you might on Charisma. The only way Edge might threaten game balance is through GM mismanagement of Edge refreshing.
MaxHunter
yep. One point a day + sometimes one more for really spectacular heroics works quite well for us...

Cheers,

Max
toturi
QUOTE (ornot)
I don't see anything broken in the Edge rules. Sure you can boost your social dice pool by 7 in your example, but you are paying for that Edge with BPs or karma, much as you might on Charisma. The only way Edge might threaten game balance is through GM mismanagement of Edge refreshing.

The canon guidelines of 1 refresh per session or once per 24 gamehours works fine.
Garrowolf
The doubling of the dice pool from combat pool was maxed at double in SR3. I think that is what he is talking about.
Grinder
QUOTE (Garrowolf)
The doubling of the dice pool from combat pool was maxed at double in SR3. I think that is what he is talking about.

Yup.
Demerzel
QUOTE (MaxHunter)
yep. One point a day + sometimes one more for really spectacular heroics works quite well for us...

That significantly devalues the edge attribute unfortunately. The point of a high edge value is having a high edge flow, both in and out. If you're limiting the input to a single point per whatever you're allowing someone with an edge of 2 to have the same edge flow as someone with an edge of 8...

Do you discount edge at character creation and for increases to balance this?
StealthBanana
Demerzel:

One refresh every 24 hours means that the entire pool refreshes, not just one point. At least I think that's what toturi is talking about.

Personally, I think Edge has it's own balancing factors. It doesn't matter if you have a high Edge or a low Edge, it has the same refresh rate. Why would having lots of Edge lead to an increased number of refreshes? The good part about having a high Edge is that you have many edge points to spend and can spend more in between refresh periods than the person with a low Edge score.
Demerzel
Yes, SB, that is the way it is supposed to be. MaxHunter said they refresh a single point per day, not the whole pool. Take note of the quote. That is what I was commenting on.
Ravor
Well considering that one POINT per day / 'Oh Cool' moments is the same refresh rate that I use I'd have to disagree, the value of having a high Edge lays in the fact that you have that many more points on hand to throw if the drek hits the fan, not that 'Mr Lucky' can throw Edge almost without thinking, safe in the knowledge that it'll all refresh and be ready to call on again the very next day.
fistandantilus4.0
Grinder: Are you having problems with excessive edge use? Just curious where this is coming from. Because if not, don't fox what ain't broken. if you are, try just stating at the beginning of the next session that edge is going to refresh less often. Depending on how difficult I want the run to be, it either refreshes at the next session, or at the start of the next run, which can be multiple sessions.

Sometimes I refresh it after the PC has gotten some good down time rest. 8+ hours uninterrupted sleep. But that's usually only if it's a really nasty game, to help give them a balancer, or if I want to give them a little more to work with for some more pzazz for the PCs.
Demerzel
So you use this as a house rule because you feel edge is overpowered. I take it then that you don't discount edge at character creation or Karma costs?
Ravor
Well personally the only time that I find Edge 'overpowered' is when people start popping points like candy, in which case I view it akin to a mage Overcasting, a fine and perfectly valid tactic paid for by character resources but not one that I'd encourage to be used all of the time. But to answer your question, no I don't discount Edge because I feel that even at a slower Refresh rate the fact that 'Mr Lucky' has more points to throw when he needs to balances out just fine. After all a vastly slowed Edge Refresh rate is one of the suggested 'offical' Rules Tweaks in order to achieve a gritter campaign, and I don't see it suggested there that I discount Edge.

As for the idea that my Edge Refresh being a House Rule, sure I supose that it is, but remember that there aren't really any hard-and-fast Edge Refresh rules, just suggestions and in fact the idea of Refreshing Edge one point at a time is also presented as a possiblity in RAW, albeit tied to achieving Run Goals instead of a time-table...

Grinder
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
Grinder: Are you having problems with excessive edge use? Just curious where this is coming from.

That's the point. We played a few games and it was clear that the two adepts with Edge 6 and 7 are having an easier time then the rest of the group with Edge between 2 and 4. Ading 7 dices to a single roll up to 7 times a day is really unbalancing, we found. So I was curious to read what other groups and people think about Edge.
Demerzel
Does the optional rule for slowing edge refreshment suggest going all the way to a flat rate of refresh? I was under the impression that the decelerated edge refreshment was still full edge refreshment, only over an extended time frame.

You see even if you only refresh edge over multiple sessions, rather than each session, or even multiple times each session someone who has 8 edge will receive 4 times the edge to spend than someone with only 2 edge. When you give x edge per y time regardless of edge attribute then youíre taking away a chunk the advantage of high edge.

Does anyone in your game take a high edge attribute or do they all take it as a dump stat?

@Grinder:
As a GM I generally only refresh edge at the completion of a full job. Under the basic rules Edge 6 and 7 can be a huge advantage, and perhaps should be. Consider Agility 3 vs Agility 7. How many dice total is 4 dice every time you pull the trigger? Many. Now agility is less versatile than edge, it only applies to half the skills in the book (I know that's an over exageration), instead of potentially to all of them. But it never runs out.

Like most of Shadowrun the trick is finding the balance for your group.
ShadowDragon
I like to refresh 1 point after a combat (where the PCs are in danger but survive), and everything only between missions. Occasionally I'll also reward a point of edge refresh when the players do something well.

The one PC with 7 edge always has a huge advantage over the PCs with small edge pools with these rules, based on my playtesting. But I don't find this unbalancing because the players knew what they were getting into when they built their characters with a low or high edge.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Grinder)
That's the point. We played a few games and it was clear that the two adepts with Edge 6 and 7 are having an easier time then the rest of the group with Edge between 2 and 4.

Isn't tha the point of having a higher edge? wink.gif

Sounds like you jsut need to refresh less often , and remember that that's the point of having a higher edge. They did pay BP for it after all.
Grinder
The two complain with the "but we spend BPs for it" the whole last session. Sissies. biggrin.gif

I think the main problem was that we had Edge refreshed too often. We'll use another system next time, probably one point Edge per day with additional ones for critical glitches and the like (as suggested in the BBB).
fistandantilus4.0
Just tell them to stop being sissies. biggrin.gif

When I found that I was dishing out to much edge, and decided to change it, I pitched it as:
"I'm changing the refresh edge rate. I want to make it a bit rougher, you know just a little more grit. Make it a little more close to death and make you think about things a bit more."

That way they weren't thinking "damn, there goes my edge", they were thinking something more like "Cool, we're not playing on Medium anymore. He thinks we're good enough to play it on Hard. We're bad asses"

Worked pretty well.
Grinder
I'm a player in that game, so I'm sure to complain. biggrin.gif

We talked about it and decided to go for a grittier gaming style indeed, in contrast to the cineastic style we had the last sessions when we were able to blow out so much Edge.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE
I'm a player in that game, so I'm sure to complain


Then I guess all I can say is "stop being a sissy"

nyahnyah.gif
Demerzel
QUOTE (Grinder @ Mar 19 2007, 10:22 AM)
. . . one point Edge per day with additional ones for critical glitches and the like (as suggested in the BBB).

I can't find this in the core rulebook. The closest I can find is one per objective completed then the full pool once the scenario is completed. So unless surviving another day is a scenario objective and the scenereo never ends I'm not sure where in the rulebook this is suggested.

I've looked at p68 section titled Regaining Edge, and p69 the tweaking the rules section under Edge Variations. Am I missing where they suggest refreshing a single point per day? If so, where might I find that?
deek
Well, I would hope that you, as a GM, are having more than 7 tests per day. I mean, a sample combat should have at least 8-12 rolls in the first couple IPs...that is taking into account shooting and defense.

I usually refresh edge every 24 hours and I think the highest edge PC in my game has 3. But, even with 7, yeah, they get to pick 7 tests to use edge, but even in a day, I'd think they would want to save it for critical moment. Even if they blew it all quickly, I still don't see having only 7 tests in a day being normal...

I'd like to see what a PC with 7 edge would play as, but even at 24 hour refresh, its only 7 tests total and I can't see that out of balance, at least based on what I would consider a standard play session. I mean, there are a ton of tests you are having PCs roll for, perception, shooting, soaking damage, soaking drain, spellcasting, infiltration, and on and on...
Lady Door
QUOTE
I missing where they suggest refreshing a single point per day? If so, where might I find that?


I think this one was Grinder's idea, and it ins't a bad one. That way the guys with the lower edge aren't gimped quite as much. Going for a happy medium perhaps.
ornot
I have to say I have a tendancy to hold onto my Edge in case I glitch something major.
deek
Yeah, based on my campaign, Edge is normally referred to those time a PC really needs to make a test or when they screw something up and want to reroll. 7 Edge is certainly helpful, but I don't see someone needing to use it all the time. I mean, a lot of times, using it beforehand may be a waste, as you might already have a good enough die pool.

I still don't see the combination of adding 7 dice to 7 tests or rerolling results 7 times during a 24 hour period being game breaking...
Kyoto Kid
...man it really worked for Hannah last time out. After having the target duck her left cross and then try to hose her with an SMG she got real angry. Threw her edge (only 3 dice) into her next punch and ended up with 11 hits on a base DV of 8 for a total DV of 19. Basically the GM described the result similar to the old Rock em Sock em Robots. She effectively knocked his block off.
deek
So for Hannah, how many of your dice exploded? I am certainly not saying that using Edge is worthless, as its results can be huge, but even having such a large die pool and being able to use it 7 times...well, that is a pretty big investment and except for a handful of exception results, I don't see it game breaking...
Kyoto Kid
...out of a total of 16 dice (13 Unarmed combat Pool + 3 Edge) she started with six hits, four of them being 6s. These resulted in three more hits two of which were 6s. Out of these two, one came up a 5 and the other a 6 (which on the re roll resulted in a 4). Hell of a roll sequence which I probably will never see again.

...yeah don't get Hannah angry, you don't want to see her angry.
knasser

I used to like the way karma pool slowly increased (I liked Team Karma too, but that's another discussion). My houserule is that everyone starts with 1 edge (2 for humans) and you get an extra point free every 10 karma, then 20 karma, then 40 karma, etc. So that by the time a character gets to the highly experienced 160 karma mark, then she has got 6 edge points assuming she is human. The metahumans have to get to 320. smile.gif

Balances everything out nicely in my opinion.
Demerzel
QUOTE (Plan B)
I think this one was Grinder's idea, and it ins't a bad one. That way the guys with the lower edge aren't gimped quite as much. Going for a happy medium perhaps.

QUOTE (Grinder)
(as suggested in the BBB).


I can't find it. There were a coupple other users who suggested it/reccomended it, but I don't see where in the book this is. So I'm trying to figure out where it is.
yesman
Those guys who are 'gimped' by only having an Edge of 2-4 got to spend those points elsewhere. Like Magic, Resources, or Skills - benefits they pretty much get all the time.

I mean honestly; if a player with an Agility 2 character complained that it wasn't as effective as an Agility 6 character would you feel compelled to take some kind of action?

Do Magic 2 spellcasters get a break to even things out with the Magic 6 casters?
Grinder
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
QUOTE
I'm a player in that game, so I'm sure to complain


Then I guess all I can say is "stop being a sissy"

nyahnyah.gif

Sure you can, but I just ignore that little voice in my head then.

wobble.gif
WhiskeyMac
You could use the rule tweak in the BBB pg. 69 under Grittier Gameplay, Bullet 2: When Edge is spent for extra dice, you only get dice equal to your current unspent Edge points rather than your full Edge attribute. I think that will make those 6 and 7 Edge people realize that they should probably hold onto those Edge so they can use them in important situations.

Demerzel, I think Grinder and some of the others were just changing around the Grittier Gameplay, Bullet 4 point: Refresh Edge rarely - at the end of every campaign arc, for example. They just used 24 hours instead of campaign arc.
Grinder
QUOTE (Demerzel)
QUOTE (Plan B)
I think this one was Grinder's idea, and it ins't a bad one. That way the guys with the lower edge aren't gimped quite as much. Going for a happy medium perhaps.

QUOTE (Grinder)
(as suggested in the BBB).


I can't find it. There were a coupple other users who suggested it/reccomended it, but I don't see where in the book this is. So I'm trying to figure out where it is.

I'm sure I read it at page 60 or so, where Edge is introduced. I don't have my BBB here, so I can't check right now, but I'm sure it's mentioned there when it's discussed how often Edge should be refreshed.
Glyph
Regaining Edge is on page 68, and the rule tweaks are on page 69. Even the base rules for refreshing Edge have a lot of leeway. It is one of those situations where it depends on the GM. But the GM should be upfront about how Edge works at the very start of the campaign. And if he needs to tweak it in the middle of the campaign, maybe he should offer players with high Edge the opportunity to re-allocate their points if they feel the stat has been nerfed too much.
Demerzel
QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)
They just used 24 hours instead of campaign arc.

But that's not it, they are talking about changing this significantly. They suggest never refreshing edge, ever. They offer instead regenerating a single point every 24 hours. Refreshing edge could mean you gain 8 edge of you had 8 and used all of it.

Let me put it this way. I not particularly down on house rules. I just dislike when a house rule is represented as an optional rule, or worse as the actual rules.

I feel like part of the purpose of this forum is to assist eachother in understanding the rules, and when a house rule is offered as an in book optional rule when it is not then I get concerned that misinformation is being spread. I have up until now attempted to avoid being so blunt as to say that misinformation is being spread in this case, and have just sought clarification. However it is now late and as a result I'm likely to be much more blunt and post things that will be taken less well.
Garrowolf
I can see where a cap for edge would be useful. If you are doing a gritty game then it makes more sense.

One thing that I did was that I separated Karma from XP. I gave them both during my games. XP works the same as karma did but just for skills and attribute improvement. They spend karma to buy their edge in dice bonuses. They get karma based on good role playing and describing their actions cinematically. They get XP every session and may or may not get karma depending on what they do (actually I don't think that I have ever not given them some karma in a session). This means that they can run out of luck every once in a while or they can store it up for a big battle.
Ravor
*Sighs*

Ok Demerzel, I'll spell out exactly how I came to my decisions and although I can't speak for anyone else, I'm fairly certain their train of thought followed a similair path.

-1-

There really aren't any hard rules about refreshing Edge in the book, just a quick glance at the Edge section shows something like SIX different suggestions on how to refresh Edge.

-2-

One of the suggestions reads as follows;

"One possibility is to refresh 1 point of Edge for each achieved goal, and the rest when the scenario is completed."

-3-

The very next sentence reads as follows;

"Alternately, Edge can simply refresh every day."

-4-

Under the 'Tweaking the Rules', which are basically offical house rules I found the following sentence;

"Refresh Edge rarely-at the very end of a campaign arc, for example."

-5-

I simply combined three of the suggestions that RAW offers into my suggestion that Edge refresh at 1 point/Day + 1 point/'Cool Moment'.

--------------------------------------------------

Ok, as for your question about how my players view Edge the way I run it, well based off their past and present character sheets I do have one player who views Edge as a dump stat, but he always makes a 'One Trick Pony' anyways, I also have one that always takes 1 less then his max cap, but the rest of them tends to run between 3-4 Edge on average.

More importantly, since the refresh rate I use has been adopted by the player who sometimes dreams of DMing, the few times that I get to actually play my characters all tend towards a high Edge so I don't see how my refresh rate has seriously weakened Edge, even if my character can't use it all of the time, when I do then the BPs that I've spent into a high Edge gives my more of a bang then a character who has a low Edge.
Demerzel
If you donít consider that a house rule and simply invoking an optional rule then I wonder how you fail to see how every example in the book fully refreshes edge at some point.

You are taking the option of 1 point per achieved goal and the rest when the scenario is completed (2 on your list)

Then taking the last part of 3 on your list, and replacing the achieved goal language.

Then absolutely cutting off the part that starts and the rest.

You see two of the main advantages of having a high edge are how much you can store, and how much you get back when you refresh. But since you NEVER refresh edge in the house rule youíre talking about youíre taking away a major component of edge the fact that it fully refreshes at some time.

I have no problem with you playing a house rule. I donít even know you, and Iím not likely to ever come into contact with you or your game. I have a problem with representing a house rule as an option in the book when it is not.
evilgenius
QUOTE (WhiskeyMac @ Mar 19 2007, 08:37 PM)
You could use the rule tweak in the BBB pg. 69 under Grittier Gameplay, Bullet 2: When Edge is spent for extra dice, you only get dice equal to your current unspent Edge points rather than your full Edge attribute. I think that will make those 6 and 7 Edge people realize that they should probably hold onto those Edge so they can use them in important situations.

Demerzel, I think Grinder and some of the others were just changing around the Grittier Gameplay, Bullet 4 point: Refresh Edge rarely - at the end of every campaign arc, for example. They just used 24 hours instead of campaign arc.

That's what I've instituted for players. Extra dice = current edge.

But to compensate, I've give edge a little more leniently... Characters get 1 point per game session refreshed for free, and 1 point for surviving something life threatening (any combat, cybercombat, vehicle combat or dangerous infiltration or physically dangerous social situation for examples). In the real world, I personally have been in probably less than a dozen truly life threatening situations in my whole 33 years on the planet - so I think that for those who survive, the confidence / edge / luck / je ne sais quoi / guts of the character go up accordingly.

I also allow characters to refresh 1 edge point for 1 Karma. It's a crappy deal, but you would be surprised how often one of my guys goes for it.

[edit: I forgot to mention that I refresh the entire pool on the successful completion of a run.]
Garrowolf
You could refresh their edge based on what snacks they bring!
Ravor
QUOTE (Demerzel)
I have no problem with you playing a house rule. I donít even know you, and Iím not likely to ever come into contact with you or your game. I have a problem with representing a house rule as an option in the book when it is not.


*Shrugs* I'm sure that we'll both somehow manage to survive.

QUOTE (Garrowolf)
You could refresh their edge based on what snacks they bring!


*chuckles* And there isn't even a single person on this board who could claim that it doesn't follow RAW to the letter, provided of course that you Refresh the entire pool at some point, even if it is based off when your neighbor's dog barks.
snowRaven
Personally, I refresh their entire Edge at the end of each run, when I hand out Karma, and then grant occasional points for exceptional things (as suggested in the RAW).

If it's a massive run, I'll refresh the edge sometime during it, after they've completed an important stage.
Grinder
QUOTE (snowRaven @ Mar 21 2007, 09:33 AM)
Personally, I refresh their entire Edge at the end of each run, when I hand out Karma, and then grant occasional points for exceptional things (as suggested in the RAW).

If it's a massive run, I'll refresh the edge sometime during it, after they've completed an important stage.

Our GM made basically the same suggestion yesterday. We'll try it and see how it works out.
Fezig
The way I see as most practical to refresh is refreshing the entire pool after a completed run. On longer runs with multiple difficult objectives (essentially the Johnson contracts for a series of runs that is treated as one run), refreshing single points upon achieving individual objectives allows them to retain more use of their edge. For me I see edge as a bit more of a fantasy or movie style atmosphere being presented in SR. If you want to play with a lot more grit, then go ahead and give less edge refreshment and use the dice bonus = unspent edge optional rule, but I also believe it is necessary to fully refresh the edge of a character at a given point in time so they may gain the full bonus of their attribute. I mean, if a player has 7 edge and another has 3, and they both spend their ways down to 0 over the course of several runs, the person with 7 should eventually (even in a gritty campaign) gain back a full pool after a 5 or 6 run story set, otherwise imo edge is being devalued greatly in the game.

EDIT:

Just want to clarify I'm not saying that you need to refresh it that often, I'm just saying that you need to realize that if you don't you are decreasing the value of having a high edge.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Garrowolf)
You could refresh their edge based on what snacks they bring!

...mmmmm 6 pack of Lagunitas IPA (for the GM) = full edge (up to 6 pts) refreshed immediately.

I could go for that. biggrin.gif
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