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pestulens
the Question is, should a high strength 5+ character be doing more damage with a bow than an ax (assuming an ewuivalant skill).
I will point out that bows are somewate balanced by there skill withc only works on bows.
Eryk the Red
It's less about balance, and more about the fact that a big bow shooting (large but) conventional arrows can do comparable or better damage to an assault cannon. Not cool, far as I'm concerned. Trust me, Str/2 +2 DV is not weak. It can still put the hurt on. But it's not artillery-level power. Which seems more right.
ornot
QUOTE (Jack Kain)
QUOTE (ornot @ Mar 21 2007, 03:22 AM)
My main objection to bows is not the fact that they can inflict 15P, but the fact that they can do so for so little. There needs to be a balancing factor; be it cost, legality... something anyway.

Aries Alpha
6P+EXEX+ Narrow Long Burst=12P and you can fire twice in that During that IP.
Now of course you take a penalty to hit but with a few extras you can greatly reduce the recoil penalty even at that level.
If you account for the fact that you can't smartlink a bow that reduces the penalty even more.


Cap the one shot per IP Bow at something like 10 STR so high strength characters can actually make use of them. Orcs and Especially Trolls can deal a massive amount of damage with a melee weapon. So don't gut the bow down to capping at a human level of strength.

Lets look at the legality of a bow, while it may be legal to say own a longbow. Walking around a city with it clearly visible on your back. I think that may be illegal. Or at least if Lone Star sees you they are going to stop and talk with you.

Yes. You can do a similar amount of damage to a bow with a firearm. But going strictly from the RAW a rating 10 bow costs you 1000yen. The arrows cost you 5yen each. And by RAW there are no restrictions on wandering around with a bow.

An Ares Alpha costs 1700yen, plus the cost of accessories to get rid of recoil penalties. Your long burst costs 60yen of ammunition, and you can only fire one long burst in an IP (although it may be supplemented with a short burst). And both ExEx and the Ares Alpha are Forbidden, so that by RAW even owning one is an arrestable offence.

Like I said, I'm not anti-bow per se, I just feel that something capable of doing the same damage as an assault rifle ought to be as hard to get hold of, as expensive, as costly to run and maintain, and as likely to get the Star on your back.
X-Kalibur
And thus, the distinctive style flaw creeps back in to SR4... Really, if there are murders linked to a bow... and they see you walking around with a bow... you think the 'star won't detain you for questioning?
Jack Kain
QUOTE (Eryk the Red)
It's less about balance, and more about the fact that a big bow shooting (large but) conventional arrows can do comparable or better damage to an assault cannon. Not cool, far as I'm concerned. Trust me, Str/2 +2 DV is not weak. It can still put the hurt on. But it's not artillery-level power. Which seems more right.

The assault cannon is badly designed gun any way, its single shot. An assault rifle can still do more damage thanks to burst fire. They should have given the panther something like a blast radius to hit multiple targets, or at least made it SA.


Str/2+2 is weak, that makes its damage slightly more then a throwing knife (STR/2+1) throwing knives can be thrown .more then once per IP as you can ready several thrown weapons with single ready weapon. A bow however requries a ready weapon action each time you fire.

It would also take a strength of 10 to match a heavy crossbow (also can fire multiple times in a single IP, because the SR ones have clips), which I think is unfair to bows again. Crossbows had popularity for being easier to use not for being more damaging.

If your going to do Str/2 then make it Str/2+3. That way the bow actually has an advantage over a throwing knife.
ornot
Doesn't the bow still have a range bonus over throwing knives?
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Jack Kain @ Mar 21 2007, 02:39 PM)
If your going to do Str/2 then make it Str/2+3. That way the bow actually has an advantage over a throwing knife.

I agree with this. I think the bow is probably overpowered as it is, but if you're going to go with Str/2 you need to boost it to compensate, or else it's just totally nerfed.
With Str+2 you have a range of 3 to 8 for normal humans.
With Str/2+2 you get 3 to 5, which is pretty lousy.
With Str/2+3 you get 4 to 6, which is better, but still definitely inferior to the old bow.
With Str/2+4 you get 5 to 7, which roughly preserve the power level of bows for humans.

Compare that to the Str 14 Troll.
With Str+2 you get 16 DIE CITYMASTER!
With Str/2+4 you get 11. Much more reasonable. Still stupid-powerful, but less so.

edited: because apparently I can't do basic math.
ornot
That looks good Moon-Hawk.
I think that I will institute those damage ratings for bows in my games, should anyone want to play an archer. I'd still be inclined to increase the cost of high strength bows above the rating in the RAW, ditto for arrows and (il)legality.

Incidentally, Str 14/2+4=11P
Moon-Hawk
Thanks. Fixed it. I took the 16 damage from the line above instead of the 14 strength I quoted. Oops.
Jack Kain
Here's a cost table.
Rating 3-6 Cost 100 nuyen.gif x Rating
Rating 7-9 Cost 1,000 nuyen.gif x Rating
Rating 10+ Cost: 2,000 nuyen.gif x Rating


Regular ammo for guns cost 2 nuyen.gif per shot be it holdout or assault rifle. So there is no reason to scale arrows for different ratings of bows.
ornot
*checks timestamps*

Now that's service!
knasser
I don't know if the bow rules are realistic when compared to real life, but surely we can agree that they're balanced against firearms in terms of power?

The following negatives apply to a bow:
  • Investment in Strength: To make a bow comparable in power to firearms, the player has to invest a lot of points in Strength which often has limited use compared to say Agility for firearms. And of course the bow user will require both.
  • Exclusivity of Skill: Similar to the above, the bow user must invest valuable points in a skill that is of less use than say longarms where it can be applied to a variety of weapons (which can be found anywhere or borrowed from a teammate in emergency).
  • Standing to Fire: Opportunities for cover are much reduced with a bow, due to the need to adopt a very specific and visible firing stance. Whilst your teammates are carefully peeking over the top of the crates in the warehouse, you will be standing there straight backed with a sign on your head saying shoot me.
  • Distinctiveness of Style: "Do we have any clues to go on, seargent?" "Just one chief... the murderer is a troll who uses an archaic weapon from centuries ago." "Darn, this is going to be tough."
  • Concealability: Is that a six foot bow with built in pulley arrangements in your pocket or are you just... Say it *is* a six foot bow with built in pulley arrangements in your pocket!"
  • Cost and Encumberance of Ammunition: Carry thirty bullets, no problem, a quiver of thirty arrows on your back? Less convenient. Let's double the amount of ammunition carried. Even less convenient. And if you run out, you're not likely to be borrowing a "clip" from your teammate or a fallen guard. Less able to grab refills at your local Stuffer Shack, too.
  • Ease of Damaged Weapon: If you get hit by a fireball or knocked off a roof, I would think that that the bow is much more likely to be broken beyond repair than the firearm. Bows look vulnerable to me as a GM.
  • Rate of Fire: Covered already, but the gun users are going to be putting out twice as many shots as the bow user.
  • Time to Ready: Following on from the above, unless you're permanently walking around with the bow drawn (which you can't), then you're not going to be the quickest off the mark when you're ambushed or a fight first breaks out. You have to ready a bow first.
I think all of the above is a sufficient start to showing why a bow is not unbalanced in terms of power. In terms of the power that it does have, I don't know whether it's right, but I do think with space age materials (for both the bow and the arrows), they could be pretty impressive. Remember that the troll bow is not simply stronger than the bow you would use. That's Strength 6, which is probably the strongest person you have ever met or ever will. The troll bow is used by people with a strength of 9 or 10 which is more than any human has ever had. They even have a far greater than normal armspan (even proportionately). They should be impressive.
Konsaki
3 words - Super Sonic Arrows

How - Troll /w 16str and 4IP.
Ophis
QUOTE (Konsaki)
3 words - Super Sonic Arrows

How - Troll /w 16str and 4IP.

In reference to the bold text. How when trolls have strength max 15? Just a question...
Demerzel
Ouch, physics...

The arrows will be released the same velocity regardles of your rate of fire.

I know your statement was a joke, I'm sorry, I just can't help myself.
Austere Emancipator
Nearly any adult human (call it STR min 2) can draw a bow that will launch light arrows at 250fps. The most powerful bows on the market, STR min 5 in SR4, strain to get the same arrow to 350fps. Even if you're extremely optimistic about the performance of these überbows and don't think of the returns as diminishing exponentially (or indeed of the whole concept of a supersonic bow as utterly ridiculous), the same progression would require a STR min 26 bow to get that kind of arrow to 1050fps.

And what you'd have at that point is the world's most awkward Heavy Pistol. (350 grain arrow at 1050fps ~ 200 grain bullet at 1390fps)

BTW, "supersonic" is one word.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
I do not hail from the continent of North America, BTW.

heh, maybe you should put in a location entry in your profile then, even if all it states is that your not from USA?
Demerzel
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
BTW, "supersonic" is one word.

But, like Homer, my two favorite words in the english language are De Fault
Konsaki
QUOTE (Ophis)
QUOTE (Konsaki @ Mar 21 2007, 10:46 PM)
3 words - Super Sonic Arrows

How - Troll /w 16str and 4IP.

In reference to the bold text. How when trolls have strength max 15? Just a question...

10 base, 5 augmented, 1 pos qual.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
heh, maybe you should put in a location entry in your profile then, even if all it states is that your not from USA?

As fun as it is to see the strange conclusions people draw of one's cultural background based on small bits of communication, that might be wisest.
Konsaki
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Mar 22 2007, 07:12 AM)
Nearly any adult human (call it STR min 2) can draw a bow that will launch light arrows at 250fps. The most powerful bows on the market, STR min 5 in SR4, strain to get the same arrow to 350fps. Even if you're extremely optimistic about the performance of these überbows and don't think of the returns as diminishing exponentially (or indeed of the whole concept of a supersonic bow as utterly ridiculous), the same progression would require a STR min 26 bow to get that kind of arrow to 1050fps.

And what you'd have at that point is the world's most awkward Heavy Pistol. (350 grain arrow at 1050fps ~ 200 grain bullet at 1390fps)

BTW, "supersonic" is one word.

In SR4 an arrow can fly at 1200 m/s. (960m in .75s[1 of 4IP])

Speed of sound = 340.29 m / s
Speed of Troll arrow = 1200 m / s

I remember an old discussion on DS about this same topic, but my search fu is weak at this moment. I shall continue though.
Austere Emancipator
Ah. I will assume you are joking, then.
Konsaki
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Mar 22 2007, 07:35 AM)
Ah. I will assume you are joking, then.
ornot
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Mar 21 2007, 12:05 PM)
I do not hail from the continent of North America, BTW.

heh, maybe you should put in a location entry in your profile then, even if all it states is that your not from USA?

It occurs to me that Austere Emancipator's comment might be in response to my comment regarding gun enthusiasts.

Not to crush your ego AE, but I wasn't thinking specifically of you. Not that I'm doubting your gun expertise, but there are numerous gun enthusiasts about, a number of whom are from the US.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (ornot)
It occurs to me that Austere Emancipator's comment might be in response to my comment regarding gun enthusiasts.

It was. I realize there are lots of "gun nuts" here, several of them far more knowledgeable than me, and I'd wager most of them are in fact from the US. I assumed it was aimed at me since I was the most vocal one here, and every other bow-related thread this forum has had -- I've been called an American gun nut on this forum a few times before, too. smile.gif
Demerzel
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
A CPI rank 1 country

You'll have to update that annually...
Austere Emancipator
I certainly hope not!

I'm sad to say we only managed #2 in 2005 (damn those Icelanders!), but other than that we've been doing quite well in this millennium.
Grinder
What's CPI?
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
QUOTE (ornot)
It occurs to me that Austere Emancipator's comment might be in response to my comment regarding gun enthusiasts.

It was. I realize there are lots of "gun nuts" here, several of them far more knowledgeable than me, and I'd wager most of them are in fact from the US. I assumed it was aimed at me since I was the most vocal one here, and every other bow-related thread this forum has had -- I've been called an American gun nut on this forum a few times before, too. smile.gif

i know i have done so at least ones embarrassed.gif

hmm, cpi. i cant say i recall what it stands for...
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