Full Version: Did the UCAS ever fight a war?
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
No country has ever decided to simply not fight while a belligerent nation started taking their territory. |
March 12, 1938, Nazi Germany "annexes" Austria.
It may not be a commonality, but it certainly isn't a precedent.
| QUOTE (Red) |
| Ok, here's a good challenge. Can anyone take all of the crazy, conflicting, missing, odd and unusual published facts/info about CFS and somehow make a convincing storyline/metaplot, etc... out of it? Or at the very least try and come up with a plausible explanation. |
A number of the problems with the California storyline are simply veracity index problems. You could solve them just by unambiguously picking one of the competing incompatible storylines or drawing some lines on a map arbitrarily. The difficulty comes because of things being contradictory more than they do from things being retarded. So here are some possible resolutions:
- El Inferno
OK, the storyline as presented is kind of incomprehensible. But the ultimate result is that we've got areas that are unowned, have walls around them, and are filled with pollution and rime. It's like the Barrens. Heck, it practically is the Longbeach Sacrifice Zone from Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash. So we could certainly make a plausible storyline that made those things happen.
| QUOTE |
| In the midst of the 2022 race riots, the national guard was sent in to restore order to the nation's second largest city. The results were unmitigated disaster. Between the fact that any individual could potentially be armed with magic and the proliferation of guerilla tactics amongst the rioters, the guard forces found themselves essentially outgunned by the mob. Rapidly encircled and cut off from resupply, the American forces turned to lethal force to attempt a break out. The city's inhabitants reacted with horror and rage at the images of national guardsmen gunning down civilians in mass, and the gangs and anarchists of the city came out in force to repel the "invasion". A mixture of hedge wizardry and improvised explosives shattered the already demoralized guard units, and the barricades moved steadily backwards as more and more of the city fell under the sway of the rapidly growing riot. With many sections of the inner city unreachable by American forces and already evacuated of tax paying citizens, it was determined that the best course of action would be to attempt to starve out the riot. Barricades were reinforced and the marines were sent up from San Diego to keep the walls up. The walled sections were determined to be a disaster zone, and the owners paid disaster relief to rebuild elsewhere. Of course, who could possibly collect those funds except those who had already left? The insides were a hellscape. The United States lacked the personnel to truly maintain the siege and those on the inside were able to provision themselves by conducting raids outside the enclosure to gain ammunition and food. Thus only the fast and the strong were able to eat, unless they paid homage to the fast or the strong. Thus the interior came under the iron grip of paramilitary gangs. The attempt at starving out the insurgency had precisely the opposite effect the insurgents became a regimented fighting force, the command structure inside the barricades became stronger not weaker. America's few attempts to retake the zones were bloodily repulsed. The walls never did come down. Twenty years and an administration change later: even deprived of external water, power, and sanitation services the blighted areas struggled on. Dubbed "El Inferno" by residents and outside observers alike, this loosely connected section of no-light districts keeps its people alive barely with extensive smuggling and theft. The powerful gang bosses act as feudal warlords controlling the Sinless residents of El Inferno with a combination of fear and food. And that's the way it was, in 2046. When the CFS tried to take that area back |
- The Los Angeles Authority
What the heck? I mean they release LA because a criminal destroyed an election with electronic terrorism and might have done it from somewhere in the largest city in the country? What? That doesn't make any sense. Further, you've got the whole LA Authority thing, which is listed as being the California government of the Free City I don't know, I can't make any sense of it. But I'm sure we could make something that made sense of it.
| QUOTE |
| The residents of El Inferno had become increasingly brazen in their raids upon the outside. No longer content to simply survive, the new generation of Infernalistos had taken to conducting more high profile crime in an attempt to get some genuine creature comforts for Los Diablos (as the leaders of the El Inferno region were called). Murder for hire, BTL manufacturing, prostitution, gambling and even slavery were being used by the warlords to increase their power. El Inferno was gradually increasing in size, as more and more residents fled the areas of the city adjacent to El Inferno to relative safety in the coastal arcologies. The stench of decay was palpable. The last straw came when Los Diablos began hacking for hire. It is not known who paid them off, but Infernalistos used military grade decking materials and eliminated the 2046 election results. As little cartoon devils ran across the streaming election results, the government felt it had the bloody flag it needed to retake the sacrifice zones. Unfortunately, they didn't have the firepower. When the walls came down, the Infernalistos were ready for them almost as if they knew the hour and the minute the assault was to begin. From the moment it started, the battle for El Inferno was bloody and one-sided. The residents of El Inferno had so thoroughly modified the landscape that the maps the soldiers had were less than useless. Tunnel fighting, mine fields, spirit ambushes, and bizarrely enough military firepower met the incoming CFS troopers and it was a national black eye. El Inferno began growing faster than ever, with a virtual mass exodus to the arcologies underway the Infernalistos took their pick of the spoils of the remaining homes and businesses. With the disgrace of failed conquest looking them right in the face and a new set of elections scheduled in only days, the government made the only move they could think of to restore order: get the corporations to do it for them. Enter the Los Angeles Free Enterprise Zone. The 1200 square kilometers of Los Angeles proper became a tax-free open property zone where corporations could make money in peace assuming they could hold on to their share of it. The walls of El Inferno were torn down, and Fuchi and Horizon were allowed to have anything they could take. The city authorities abdicated from their responsibilities entirely, reverting to an advisory role for the incoming corporations. El Inferno was thus administratively destroyed, their territory combined with the corporate enclaves in the rest of Los Angeles proper. For the next few years, the corporate leaders fought it out with the criminal gangs of El Inferno the prospect of being gifted with tax-free corporate territory in the middle of the largest mega city on the West Coast proved a lucrative enough proposition that the corporations were indeed willing to brave the hornet's nest. The corporate security forces were able to make headway where government forces were not, and the Los Angeles Free Enterprise Zone became a starkly divided mix of rich and poor. |
Yeah. That would kind of work. I've been trying to think of something to explain the Aztec-California war. Maybe if you assume that the Aztecs invaded the UCAS during the period that California was attempting to secede. That way the Aztlan forces were actually "liberating" the people of San Diego, and just never bothered to give the territory to the CFS once the rest of the CFS got its independence that contradicts as little of the material as possible I think.
-Frank
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
| that contradicts as little of the material as possible I think. -Frank |
There is the problem..As littel as possible still means some...
Hi. I'm adding to this slightly old topic after FrankTrollman cited it in the California and Liberation from Saito, Where should I be looking? thread,
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...56&st=25&#entry.
First, Frank, what is the source of the Cal Free population figures you quoted, 50 million, after Aztlan took San Diego?
Regarding, TT's initial invasion of Cal Free, it "must" have been after the UCAS had already declared that California was ejected from the Union (perhaps by presidential decree, but not an act of Congress). Sources that contradict that should probably be deemed incorrect, and as one poster noted, one source specifically states that Cal Free recognized TT but got an invasion in thanks.
In this version, the California National Guard mentioned as the force defeated by TT may have been the Cal Free Army. Of course, despite their USA (and presumably UCAS) federal status, national guards are state residents. Because relatively few Californians likely fled Cal Free for the eastern UCAS or Seattle, the "California National Guard" may have been an anachronism, misreported by confused commentators, or maybe it was accurate, and the California Free State initially named its armed forces the California National Guard?
I don't know northern California very well. What USA military bases are up there today or in the past 20 years (before the base closures at the end of the 1980s / early 1990s)? These sites would have been the likely sites of Cal Free military bases (and megacorporate R&D).
I agree with Nim's idea that, "the UCAS /could/ have been thinking that if they let the Tir invasion run for a little while, it'd bring the secessionists running back to Uncle Sam to beg to be let back in." Even though the idea letting go of California, even with its VITAS- and Awakening-wracked economy, seems absurd.
Regarding Luddite question, the Neo-Anarchist's Guide reports that Californians passed Proposition 209, to secede from the UCAS, and state legislators ratified it. Before the governor could sign it into law, however, UCAS President MacAlister declared that California no longer qualified as a UCAS member and then immediately withdrew federal resources from California, beginning with military forces -- naval to Seattle and Hawaii (except for a battlegroup that remained near Los Angeles) and land and air to UCAS military bases.
Regarding Aztlan's conquest of San Diego, I have never read the Aztlan sourcebook. However, thinking about the transformation of Mexico into Aztlan, I imagine that many (but certainly not all, nor even a majority) of Californians of Mexican or other Latina/o heritage may have migrated down to Mexico / Aztlan. There may have even been a movement to secede from California and join Aztlan. The present-day population of San Diego and Los Angeles suggest that such a social movement may have been strong, since there are many, many people of Mexican and other Latin American descent who live there.
Also, Aztlan was initially a NAN-member, right? So maybe a lot of the Native Americans who were interned included people who are today called undocumented immigrants, or gente sin papeles, or pejorative terms? While I don't think that point has been officially published for SR, SoNA mentions that people of Mexican descent were allowed to claim indigenousness in the PCC, iirc.
I'll talk about the Los Angeles Authority in another post.
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...56&st=25&#entry.
First, Frank, what is the source of the Cal Free population figures you quoted, 50 million, after Aztlan took San Diego?
Regarding, TT's initial invasion of Cal Free, it "must" have been after the UCAS had already declared that California was ejected from the Union (perhaps by presidential decree, but not an act of Congress). Sources that contradict that should probably be deemed incorrect, and as one poster noted, one source specifically states that Cal Free recognized TT but got an invasion in thanks.
In this version, the California National Guard mentioned as the force defeated by TT may have been the Cal Free Army. Of course, despite their USA (and presumably UCAS) federal status, national guards are state residents. Because relatively few Californians likely fled Cal Free for the eastern UCAS or Seattle, the "California National Guard" may have been an anachronism, misreported by confused commentators, or maybe it was accurate, and the California Free State initially named its armed forces the California National Guard?
I don't know northern California very well. What USA military bases are up there today or in the past 20 years (before the base closures at the end of the 1980s / early 1990s)? These sites would have been the likely sites of Cal Free military bases (and megacorporate R&D).
I agree with Nim's idea that, "the UCAS /could/ have been thinking that if they let the Tir invasion run for a little while, it'd bring the secessionists running back to Uncle Sam to beg to be let back in." Even though the idea letting go of California, even with its VITAS- and Awakening-wracked economy, seems absurd.
Regarding Luddite question, the Neo-Anarchist's Guide reports that Californians passed Proposition 209, to secede from the UCAS, and state legislators ratified it. Before the governor could sign it into law, however, UCAS President MacAlister declared that California no longer qualified as a UCAS member and then immediately withdrew federal resources from California, beginning with military forces -- naval to Seattle and Hawaii (except for a battlegroup that remained near Los Angeles) and land and air to UCAS military bases.
Regarding Aztlan's conquest of San Diego, I have never read the Aztlan sourcebook. However, thinking about the transformation of Mexico into Aztlan, I imagine that many (but certainly not all, nor even a majority) of Californians of Mexican or other Latina/o heritage may have migrated down to Mexico / Aztlan. There may have even been a movement to secede from California and join Aztlan. The present-day population of San Diego and Los Angeles suggest that such a social movement may have been strong, since there are many, many people of Mexican and other Latin American descent who live there.
Also, Aztlan was initially a NAN-member, right? So maybe a lot of the Native Americans who were interned included people who are today called undocumented immigrants, or gente sin papeles, or pejorative terms? While I don't think that point has been officially published for SR, SoNA mentions that people of Mexican descent were allowed to claim indigenousness in the PCC, iirc.
I'll talk about the Los Angeles Authority in another post.
| QUOTE |
| First, Frank, what is the source of the Cal Free population figures you quoted, 50 million, after Aztlan took San Diego? |
That's the number cited repeatedly in the 1997 FASA book California Free State.
Much of the rest of the data comes from there as well. I'm not going to say it is the source of the best data - that book contradicts itself frequently enough before we even get in to the number of things that it says which are contradicted in other books.
The easiest place to find it is on page 16 of California Free State:
50,000,000 people.
65% Human
7% Elf (that's very low)
9% Dwarf (that's crazy high)
14% Ork
4% Troll (also high)
And all of the variously quoted areas have significantly higher Elven percentages than that, leading one to believe that the "in-between" areas like Watsonville and Petrolia must be essentially Elf-Free.
| QUOTE |
| Regarding, TT's initial invasion of Cal Free, it "must" have been after the UCAS had already declared that California was ejected from the Union (perhaps by presidential decree, but not an act of Congress). Sources that contradict that should probably be deemed incorrect, and as one poster noted, one source specifically states that Cal Free recognized TT but got an invasion in thanks. |
Not necessarily. Every source that cites California's recognition of the Tir states it as being a state level recognition signed into law by a pro-secession governor, not as a diplomatic move from one independent nation to another. Regardless of whether the California War was fought before or after California was a "Free State", the recognition of the Tir by California happened before.
One of the key points is that the President of the UCAS refused to recognize the Tir for fear of setting off "secession fever", and the California Governor went behind his back to recognize the Tir because he wanted to set off secession fever.
What's unclear is why some time between 2 and 8 months later the very same president would take actions to encourage (or in some tellings: demand) the "secession fever" to cut them off from the port of Los Angeles.
| QUOTE |
| Regarding Aztlan's conquest of San Diego, I have never read the Aztlan sourcebook. |
There are a lot of ways that I could imagine a powerful and econmically robust Aztlan nation getting the San Diego region to flip into Aztlan control. With more than a third of the people identifying as Hispanic now, it seems pretty easy to get the people to change flags during a time of unrest and turmoil.
But the Aztlan book talks about a single light armored division coming in and conquering the place. That's just silly. We can attribute that description to hyperbole by the author rather than a serious description of a major city, port, and military base getting overrun by less bodies worth of soldiers than the aggragate police force of the city.
-Frank
Anyone else kinda hope that the new President will kick some ass and reclaim some of the former States and Provinces??
i'd be mildly surprised if she didn't at least try. mildly.
Thanks Frank, I'm looking for a copy of California Free State, having missed it back in '97.
A very low elf demographic seems reasonable given the Sinseararch, establishment of Tir Tairngire, and TT's decree that non-elves leave their declared dominion north of Redding.
I imagine (and role play) elves in Cal Free as peculiarly subject to the generalized glamor of "being elven," juxtaposed with a common man's hatred / fear of (desire to possess?) them.
Regarding dwarves, I hadn't realized that 9% is very high. I think "Halferville" is lame not only because of its name but also because the SR writers apparently failed to understand where Highway 24 cuts through the coastal range. (I'm basing my assertion on the description of the dwarves control of the Caldecott Tunnel and the map in SoNA.)
I reviewed the Neo-Anarchist Guide to NA (NAGNA) last night and believe we can make sense of it in the following way:
First, TT declares its independence on May 1, 2035, right? UCAS California's governor recognizes TT because it has demonstrated its terrible technical power despite the UCAS President's refusal to do so. Not only does California want to secure its border, it also wants a favorable trade partner.
Second, in November 2036, a majority of Californians passes Proposition 129. (November has been the traditional voting month for regular state-wide elections.) Next, the state legislature approves the proposition, but California's governor is out of the state (in Africa), so the bill is never signed into law. NAGNA, at 14.
Nevertheless, the UCAS President by executive decree ejects California from the Union and orders the withdrawal of federal resources, starting with the military. Id.
Third, immediately thereafter, TT decrees that all non-elves must leave "California" until they are south of Redding. (NAGNA questions whether the significant communities of elves living in that region bespeaks a conspiracy.)
Now I know that this does not address the absurdity of losing California from the UCAS, but it seems to make sense of or clarify (remind us about?) the secession of California.
Perhaps TT, Japanese Imperial State, and Aztlan forced UCAS to move slowly, whereas the Presidential plan had been to force California to beg back into the Union, and then in 2038 the UCAS Navy in the Pacific Ocean was devastated by the secession of Hawaii?
A very low elf demographic seems reasonable given the Sinseararch, establishment of Tir Tairngire, and TT's decree that non-elves leave their declared dominion north of Redding.
I imagine (and role play) elves in Cal Free as peculiarly subject to the generalized glamor of "being elven," juxtaposed with a common man's hatred / fear of (desire to possess?) them.
Regarding dwarves, I hadn't realized that 9% is very high. I think "Halferville" is lame not only because of its name but also because the SR writers apparently failed to understand where Highway 24 cuts through the coastal range. (I'm basing my assertion on the description of the dwarves control of the Caldecott Tunnel and the map in SoNA.)
I reviewed the Neo-Anarchist Guide to NA (NAGNA) last night and believe we can make sense of it in the following way:
First, TT declares its independence on May 1, 2035, right? UCAS California's governor recognizes TT because it has demonstrated its terrible technical power despite the UCAS President's refusal to do so. Not only does California want to secure its border, it also wants a favorable trade partner.
Second, in November 2036, a majority of Californians passes Proposition 129. (November has been the traditional voting month for regular state-wide elections.) Next, the state legislature approves the proposition, but California's governor is out of the state (in Africa), so the bill is never signed into law. NAGNA, at 14.
Nevertheless, the UCAS President by executive decree ejects California from the Union and orders the withdrawal of federal resources, starting with the military. Id.
Third, immediately thereafter, TT decrees that all non-elves must leave "California" until they are south of Redding. (NAGNA questions whether the significant communities of elves living in that region bespeaks a conspiracy.)
Now I know that this does not address the absurdity of losing California from the UCAS, but it seems to make sense of or clarify (remind us about?) the secession of California.
Perhaps TT, Japanese Imperial State, and Aztlan forced UCAS to move slowly, whereas the Presidential plan had been to force California to beg back into the Union, and then in 2038 the UCAS Navy in the Pacific Ocean was devastated by the secession of Hawaii?
Why is everyone saying that the UCAS-CAS split was a war? It wasn't.
According to the SR3 history, FEARS of a Second Civil War were rampant, but the transition was quite orderly. In fact, Target: UCAS said "Not a single shot was fired."
According to the SR3 history, FEARS of a Second Civil War were rampant, but the transition was quite orderly. In fact, Target: UCAS said "Not a single shot was fired."
| QUOTE (HMHVV Hunter) |
| According to the SR3 history, FEARS of a Second Civil War were rampant, but the transition was quite orderly. In fact, Target: UCAS said "Not a single shot was fired." |
Given the enormous internal consistency of the SR timeline that Frank has pointed out in this thread, I'm sure that in some sourcebook some writer wrote a bunch of drivel that totally contradicts that.
it's possible, but i don't recall any mention of the UCAS-CAS split involving any armed conflict at all--exactly the opposite, matter of fact. i've read NAGNA and SoNA exhaustively, and i've read through Target: UCAS a few times. plus the "And So It Came To Pass" sections of SR1-4, of course.
Hey. I just reviewed TT and found one significant inconsistency / contradiction with NAGNA vis-a-vis the establishment of the California Free State.
TT holds that its invasion of Nor.Cal occurred in 2036 with no warning. NAGNA indicates that TT declared the region north of Redding for elves only, allowed for 30 days resettlement, and then rolled in.
As Frank and others have argued, TT invading while California remains part of the UCAS should trigger a military response. IMC, I will therefore resolve the issue simply by changing TT's invasion to the first month of 2037, or perhaps even December 24-31, 2036, if I really want to make all sources accord -- but in any case after UCAS military forces received the recall order and had actually relocated.
Also, regarding initial refusals to recognize TT, the TT source book holds, "The CAS, already struggling with Texas' bid for independence and Aztlan incursion into CAS territory, vociferously opposed recognizing the elven nation, claiming that doing so would spark 'secession fever' across the rest of the continent. TT, at 30. While the UCAS also did not initially recognize TT's independence, according to this source, it was CAS, not the UCAS that expressed the fear of "secession fever."
TT holds that its invasion of Nor.Cal occurred in 2036 with no warning. NAGNA indicates that TT declared the region north of Redding for elves only, allowed for 30 days resettlement, and then rolled in.
As Frank and others have argued, TT invading while California remains part of the UCAS should trigger a military response. IMC, I will therefore resolve the issue simply by changing TT's invasion to the first month of 2037, or perhaps even December 24-31, 2036, if I really want to make all sources accord -- but in any case after UCAS military forces received the recall order and had actually relocated.
Also, regarding initial refusals to recognize TT, the TT source book holds, "The CAS, already struggling with Texas' bid for independence and Aztlan incursion into CAS territory, vociferously opposed recognizing the elven nation, claiming that doing so would spark 'secession fever' across the rest of the continent. TT, at 30. While the UCAS also did not initially recognize TT's independence, according to this source, it was CAS, not the UCAS that expressed the fear of "secession fever."
Yeah, I remember another inconsistency about the Tir invasion: supposedly nobody survived the Battle of Redding, and yet in The Underworld Sourcebook they said that one of Chimera's victims was one of the few survivors of Redding.
| QUOTE (HMHVV Hunter) |
| Yeah, I remember another inconsistency about the Tir invasion: supposedly nobody survived the Battle of Redding, and yet in The Underworld Sourcebook they said that one of Chimera's victims was one of the few survivors of Redding. |
That's not exactly an inconsistency. In the TT sourcebook they have the Elves proudly say that noone survived the battle of Redding, and then they have a human former guardsman pop in to say that yes, some people had survived. In short, the real scan is that Tir propaganda states that noone survived the battle, while as actually it was just a major defeat for the California National Guard (who were either part of the United States Military or not, and were either slain in an unprovoked sneak attack or defeated in battle after being given a 30 day time table, depending upon sources).
| QUOTE |
| it's possible, but i don't recall any mention of the UCAS-CAS split involving any armed conflict at all--exactly the opposite, matter of fact. i've read NAGNA and SoNA exhaustively, and i've read through Target: UCAS a few times. plus the "And So It Came To Pass" sections of SR1-4, of course. |
There has never been an adequate explanation of what the heck happened to create the CAS. The original text really is that a coalition of 10 states just left one day with "few" instances of fighting between the military units that were dividing themselves between the two nations.
But before the secession, there's no word at all. To my knowledge there has never ever been even a single line of text describing why the hell Missouri got cut in half. I don't even think there's been a description of how the State apparatus works in either the CAS or UCAS. Seriously, what state is St. Louis in? Kansas?
The borders don't correspond to any particular 10 states. What exactly was the 10 state coalition? Why did the UCAS government even allow it to get to the point where the states could make such a declaration?
The only thing I can imagine is a serious insurgency that made the South unprofitable to try to own, but even that is never mentioned.
-Frank
i think i remember reading something about the UCAS being too busy to deal with it--too many threats on other fronts. but, yeah, there really isn't much info on the whys and wherefores behind the CAS. even that novel about the attempted Virginia annex didn't say much about it.
Just Compensation, I believe you mean. Yeah, that didn't have much info on things either.
I got the impression that the UCAS let Calfree go because California had asked both the UCAS and CAS for help, and that the CAS and UCAS were too wrapped up in arguing with each other that they simply missed the opportunity to make themselves useful. Also, at the time California, the UCAS and CAS especially, were all more concerned about Aztlan, so all the forces that were deployed were in the south so couldn't do anything to stop the TT walking in from the north anyway.
That's what I recall from NAGNA anyway.
That's what I recall from NAGNA anyway.
From what I remember of an online history of SR ("It's end of the world as we know it and I feel fine"), CalFree was actually going to go back on secession, but the UCAS refused to allow them back, saying that the popular opinion of the residents - as shown by the vote for secession - could not be ignored. Basically, they yanked the rug out from under them.
Independence Fever, SR1 says TT began in 2037.
As for the rationale behind various secessions & independence actions, what about mega-corporate influence. It all makes sense when you blame the corps
As for the rationale behind various secessions & independence actions, what about mega-corporate influence. It all makes sense when you blame the corps
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