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JonathanC
I was in a game store last weekend, talking about starting up an SR4 game. One guy pointed out that datajacks are, for the most part, no longer necessary for hacking at all. He claimed (and I could not find anything to contradict him) that you can hot-sim using trodes, so basically there is nothing stopping a mage from being the best hacker on earth, I guess.

But rather than start up another "mages have it too easy" thing, I'm more interested in what this means for hackers. Granted, a datajack isn't much essence to give up, but trodes are cheaper too. And even if you wanted to transfer data to an internal commlink, couldn't you do it wirelessly anyway? So really...what are datajacks used for post 2070?
FrankTrollman
A Trode net is a disposable and vulnerable item. If you are running around sweating in a sewer, your trode net comes off. So if you do all of your hacking from an office in the comfy chair - wearing a set of trodes every time you run the matrix is a possible answer. If you want to hack on the fly in Shadowrun situations, then you probably want the jack.

For that matter, if you want to take advantage of data input/output while running around on Shadowruns, the datajack is for you. While you could wear a trode net in order to send wireless signals to your friends of stuff you thought of - that's unreliable.

Essentially it's the age old question of why people put vision mag in their eyes when they could carry perfectly good optical telescopes instead. The telescopes work just as well, they are justone more thing to carry and fragile enough to be unreliable once put through a combat situation.

-Frank
Demerzel
I'm a little less than impressed with the datajack now. From what I can tell the only benefit is that the Datajack contains memory. And since SR4 says any device has basically enough memory for anything you need for it, then it is essentially infinite storage.

I recall recently reading the description of the linguasoft and thinking that there was something there for datajacks, but I can't be certain without my book.
JonathanC
I've never thought of trode nets as being that unreliable. The paint-on ones, sure. They seem like they'd come off easy, but even then...they're described as being used by club-goers, who would be sweating all over the place. Presumably they aren't water-soluble. And if the paint-on ones can survive sweating, the more expensive permanent ones ought to as well.

Now yes, they can be taken away when you're captured, but that's not much different from the head jammer that a 'jack-wearing hacker would be fitted with if they were captured. I guess it kind of makes sense...old-school runners would stand by their datajacks, and the young'uns would be wearing their trode nets in multi-colored wigs/hats, or painting them on, looking like a bunch of club kids. smile.gif
Demerzel
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
A Trode net is a disposable and vulnerable item.

Seeing as you can build the trode net into a variety of objects such as helmets I'm not sure how much this really applies. I'd be disinclined to say a helmet that provides armor is vulnerable. Or even a hat, or for that matter nanopaste trodes which can be "painted" on. My question about those is how many applications come in one set? I assume one application, but it's not clear like the disguise is that it is only one application. If it really is paint, then I'd assume it's a pot of paint that can be applied a number of times.
deek
DJ's also have ports for a couple knowsofts, IIRC.

But yes, in the wireless world, a DJ is not really a necessity. I would point out, that in the SR timeline, that just 5 or so years ago, DJs were necessary, so most characters at chargen should probably have one for no other reason then the times would have called for it a short time ago...

Now, 20-30 years into the future, I would think most runners wouldn't have one at all, unless you are a dedicated hacker and really need to be able to direct connect to a node...technology usually takes a few years to catch up, so without a DJ, you may run into nodes with no wireless access, so its safer to cover your bases.
Rotbart van Dainig
You know, you just could carry a port repeater with wifi/skinlink - for your internal comlink.
Shrike30
I prefer them because it means I've got the ability to make a hard-wired connection without having to wear my helmet, paste on my head, or a webbing of plastic and wires. The telescope comparison that got made earlier is quite valid.

Basically, there's some of us who would rather have something implanted than have to carry it around all the time. Anything that reduces the number and bulk of items you're carrying around is usually a good thing. I can certainly think of things I'd rather use a pocket for than carrying around a jar of nanotrode paste.
Ravor
I don't know, personally I view Datajacks as still being as common as earings are today, in part because its culturally expected for people to get one at their X Birthday, and also because it's a fairly secure and convient hub for any future DNI implants a person might get.

Besides, even if it isn't RAW, in my games if a runner falls off of a building or is otherwise jarred and bumped then a Trode connection just isn't going to cut it whether its built into an armored helmet or not. (Yeah, I also ignore the bit about your shirt being able to carry around the entire Libary of Congress as well.) cyber.gif
hobgoblin
heh, one problem with the "library of congress" thing is that the library of congress keep on growing nyahnyah.gif
JonathanC
QUOTE (Ravor)
I don't know, personally I view Datajacks as still being as common as earings are today, in part because its culturally expected for people to get one at their X Birthday, and also because it's a fairly secure and convient hub for any future DNI implants a person might get.

Besides, even if it isn't RAW, in my games if a runner falls off of a building or is otherwise jarred and bumped then a Trode connection just isn't going to cut it whether its built into an armored helmet or not. (Yeah, I also ignore the bit about your shirt being able to carry around the entire Libary of Congress as well.) cyber.gif

What kind of future DNI implants would require a datajack?

And in terms of game balance, do you think the increased utility of trode nets (they used to only do cold sim in 3rd ed, right?) has a negative impact on the dedicated hacker as a concept? I mean, couldn't you just hire a computer-savvy adept and call it a day?
Demerzel
QUOTE (JonathanC)
I mean, couldn't you just hire a computer-savvy adept and call it a day?

There are some who would say a Hacker Adept is the best hacker concept availiable . . .

Note: I'm not necessarily endorsing this concept. But a primarily AR oriented high initiative hacker adept has been proposed...
JonathanC
Yeah. I know I said I was going to avoid arguing about this, but really...it kinda feels like the magic-related character options are inherently superior to cyberware users. I realize that in the "world" of SR, people don't have a choice in the matter, but players do, and I've noticed a general lack of interest from players in making non-magical characters because of this. And those who do have to deal with being noticeably inferior to their mage/adept friends.
Demerzel
There's something to be said for playing a character with an enhanced ruleset. If you play with SM rules and compare it to a character who is tied to the core only, then you'll see that the magical characters have more options, and can probably be made more powerful.

Consider the existance of Intuition based magical traditions, they didn't exist in the core rules, but now I can have an adept who's drain stat is directly tied to initiative. Just one of many examples.

When Augmentation and Aresenal are out I don't think you'll find that to be true anylonger.
JonathanC
QUOTE (Demerzel)
There's something to be said for playing a character with an enhanced ruleset. If you play with SM rules and compare it to a character who is tied to the core only, then you'll see that the magical characters have more options, and can probably be made more powerful.

Consider the existance of Intuition based magical traditions, they didn't exist in the core rules, but now I can have an adept who's drain stat is directly tied to initiative. Just one of many examples.

When Augmentation and Aresenal are out I don't think you'll find that to be true anylonger.

Even if we ignore SM, I think adepts and mages come out ahead. Again, there is nothing stopping a mage or adept from doing the job of a hacker or rigger, or even street sam, while it is impossible for any of those guys to do what a mage or adept can do. Mages are a necessity for dealing with magical security, while you can easily defeat or get past non-magical security without using a dedicated hacker, rigger, or street samurai. To put it more simply:

Magic: Can deal with magic and cyber.

Cyber: Can deal with cyber.


One of these things is much better than the other one.
Ravor
QUOTE (JonathanC)
What kind of future DNI implants would require a datajack?


Require a datajeack to function? None, but it'd be a really good idea to route everything into the Datajack via wires. That way in the event that your cyber is hacked you only have to be able to shut down your Datajack connection and the rest of your cyber is taken off-line and thus unhackable. Then run as many Agents as you can fit into your Datajack and Commlink looking for intruders.

QUOTE (JonathanC)
And in terms of game balance, do you think the increased utility of trode nets (they used to only do cold sim in 3rd ed, right?) has a negative impact on the dedicated hacker as a concept? I mean, couldn't you just hire a computer-savvy adept and call it a day?


Well something to remember is that the Awakened population is only 1%, and that I'd imagine that most of those are Mages/Shamans as well as your more traditional Adepts so you might not be able to find a computer savant when you need one.

But yeah, I really don't like the fact that according to RAW Trodes are as good as a Datajack, so I tend to play up the non-RAW but logical downsides of using Trodes in the active lives which Shadowrunners tend to live as well as playing up the non-RAW but logical upsides to having DNI wired throughout your body through a Datajack...
Rotbart van Dainig
It's always fun to illustrate the downsides of having a direct plug to your brain, too. wink.gif
Ravor
Sure, as in not being able to manually turn it off if your DNI control has been subverted, but since I want to encourage the direct plugs over trodes, in my games the trode nets have more downsides that an average Runner is likely to encounter then a properly set up and defended datajack.

*Edit*

And in my opinion its logical to do so given that the precident given to us by previous Editions have always stresed that a Datajack was the way to go, and even in Fourth the Datajack is the more expensive of the two options...

*Edit 2.0*

Oh and JonathanC I disagree that you necessary need a mage to counter another mage, even the most jacked up Mage out there will die if you pump enough bullets into him, and there is enough manatech floating around to at least warn the mundanes to Astral Intruders. (Not that Astral Recon is really the be-all/end-all given the problems that Astral Mages have when dealing with non-living mundane things.) Yeah, you do have a point in that Magic does tend to be the 'big-guns' in Shadowrun, but at least in my opinion the best route is a blending of both tech and magic and that in the end, I still believe that the two are roughly balanced provided that the DM enforces the downsides that Mages have to live with...
Demerzel
QUOTE (Demerzel)
I recall recently reading the description of the linguasoft and thinking that there was something there for datajacks, but I can't be certain without my book.

After reviewing it, the Datajack allows you to access and store Knowsofts and Linguasofts in the datajack and have no need for the sim module, you can just run them from memory (which is basically infinite). Through a Trode Net you have to run them through a Sim Module, so consider all those languages you could have at your disposal....
kigmatzomat
The difference between trode net and data jack is the same as between contact lenses and cybereyes. Anyone can use trode nets (good) but they can be taken away from you (bad) and are useless without a comm (bad). Data jacks are always there (good) and give you access to various Softs directly (good) but they take essence (bad).

Value depends on the character's perceived need and risk.

JonathanC
QUOTE (Ravor)
Sure, as in not being able to manually turn it off if your DNI control has been subverted, but since I want to encourage the direct plugs over trodes, in my games the trode nets have more downsides that an average Runner is likely to encounter then a properly set up and defended datajack.

*Edit*

And in my opinion its logical to do so given that the precident given to us by previous Editions have always stresed that a Datajack was the way to go, and even in Fourth the Datajack is the more expensive of the two options...

*Edit 2.0*

Oh and JonathanC I disagree that you necessary need a mage to counter another mage, even the most jacked up Mage out there will die if you pump enough bullets into him, and there is enough manatech floating around to at least warn the mundanes to Astral Intruders. (Not that Astral Recon is really the be-all/end-all given the problems that Astral Mages have when dealing with non-living mundane things.) Yeah, you do have a point in that Magic does tend to be the 'big-guns' in Shadowrun, but at least in my opinion the best route is a blending of both tech and magic and that in the end, I still believe that the two are roughly balanced provided that the DM enforces the downsides that Mages have to live with...

I don't recall there being much in the way of tech to detect mages in the SR4 book, but I could be wrong. Astral recon aside...if someone tosses a manaball at you, your only protection is your Willpower and your mage buddy, unless you sunk points into being magic resistant, which will come back to bite you when you want some magical healing.

A mage, by contrast, can resist bullets using magic quite well, and can wear armor too. Mages, in the games I've seen, have the highest armor, most initiative passes, and highest damage potential of anyone else in the games I've played in/run.

...and now they can hack too, without any essence loss necessary. eek.gif
Demerzel
QUOTE (JonathanC)
A mage, by contrast, can resist bullets using magic quite well, and can wear armor too. Mages, in the games I've seen, have the highest armor, most initiative passes, and highest damage potential of anyone else in the games I've played in/run.

Armor over bodyx2 reduces Agility. Many mages don't have the body to wear a camo suit or armored jacket. If they are running around with Armor Spell up, you have to remember that Armor makes you GLOW. Nice little targeting advice if you're trying to decide who to shoot up.

If your sam's don't have orthoskin and enough body for decent armor such that your mages are out armoring them then I'm concerned you're not playing with very compitant sammys.
bibliophile20
Everyone keeps on forgetting that there's at least one campaign setting that renders magic effectively useless: Space.

One of my contingency plans if the magical PCs get too powerful is to have Mr. Johnson give them a space mission--or, better yet, if they've honked off Ares, the magic PCs are taken up the gravity well for some experiments (and if Ares can capture insect shamans, they can capture any metahuman magic user) and the other runners have the option of trying to break their buddy out or not--but it would still give them the chance for a fairly magic free campaign arc.

Additionally, there are other ways to discourage uppity magicians--one day they all wake up in a ditch somewhere, having been dosed with laes, and the mage is sporting a new cyberlimb or two (or three. Or four...).
Jaid
QUOTE (JonathanC)
QUOTE (Ravor @ Apr 24 2007, 07:46 PM)
Sure, as in not being able to manually turn it off if your DNI control has been subverted, but since I want to encourage the direct plugs over trodes, in my games the trode nets have more downsides that an average Runner is likely to encounter then a properly set up and defended datajack.

*Edit*

And in my opinion its logical to do so given that the precident given to us by previous Editions have always stresed that a Datajack was the way to go, and even in Fourth the Datajack is the more expensive of the two options...

*Edit 2.0*

Oh and JonathanC I disagree that you necessary need a mage to counter another mage, even the most jacked up Mage out there will die if you pump enough bullets into him, and there is enough manatech floating around to at least warn the mundanes to Astral Intruders. (Not that Astral Recon is really the be-all/end-all given the problems that Astral Mages have when dealing with non-living mundane things.) Yeah, you do have a point in that Magic does tend to be the 'big-guns' in Shadowrun, but at least in my opinion the best route is a blending of both tech and magic and that in the end, I still believe that the two are roughly balanced provided that the DM enforces the downsides that Mages have to live with...

I don't recall there being much in the way of tech to detect mages in the SR4 book, but I could be wrong. Astral recon aside...if someone tosses a manaball at you, your only protection is your Willpower and your mage buddy, unless you sunk points into being magic resistant, which will come back to bite you when you want some magical healing.

A mage, by contrast, can resist bullets using magic quite well, and can wear armor too. Mages, in the games I've seen, have the highest armor, most initiative passes, and highest damage potential of anyone else in the games I've played in/run.

...and now they can hack too, without any essence loss necessary. eek.gif

the karma is the barrier, not the essence. true, it no longer costs them a point of magic, but it eats up a lot of karma to be a hacker these days... it's no longer a matter of buying a single skill, you need several skills. that's the barrier to magic users, who also now need several skills to do their job.
Big D
... Here we go again. I guess it's been too long since the last mage/sam fight.

QUOTE
There are some who would say a Hacker Adept is the best hacker concept availiable . . .


I could definitely see an argument made for that, assuming that the HA is very specialized. At higher levels, a TM would probably overtake them, but anywhere near chargen, the HA would probably win.

Of course, if you want pure cheese, go with the AR-using high-force Ally (with quickened F4 Imp Ref). You get to have your cake, eat it, mortgage it, sell it, and collect insurance on it.
ccelizic
It would really suck if someone pulled a trodenet off your head mid-hacking or if your nano-paste net got scuffed to the point where it misfunctioned mid-hacking. It's a dumpshock waiting to happen. Sure, someone can rip a datacable out of your skull, buta little more fidgeting and finding is involved in that process.

A datajack gives you a harddrive in your skull allowing you to pop in a datachip and review it's contents regardless of a presense of a commlink (though plugging strange chips into your head is generally not a healthy thing to do). Also a datajack allows for conversations taht are hard to eaves-drop upon. You can take a length of cable attatch it between two data-jack implanted users and communicate mentally.

It's not the flashiest of things, it is not absolutely nessecary. But it's a very common implant that's socially acceptable, it's cheap in both essence and money, and it's got general utility.

Making a mage hacker is capable yes, in a fit of paranoia, a mage I am making has a slight competence in computer skills, largely just enough to stall an intruder. Though, I'm not going to focus on the matrix aspects tooo heavily beyond what facilitiates the char's background interests.

You see, sure, you can make a mage who can hack, but if the mage is hacking, then he isn't hurling manaballs, if the mage is hurling manaballs he isn't hacking. Astral perception and the like are useless accross electronic medium. The thing about a mage hacker is you are still limited by the constraints of space/time, you're either helping your team as a hacker or as a wizard, doing both at once would be extremely difficult.

I mean you don't see anything that ever kept a street samurai from picking up a cyberdeck and making himself a crack hacker too, but they tend to focus on one thing or the other because it helps to be good at one thing.
Kyoto Kid
...my hacker character Violet has a datajack connected to her implanted Commlink. She uses it for connecting to an external hot sim module (not really wanting to carry around a piece of F legality ware in her head) which she switches to when she goes VR.

Also I could see that installations still would have hardwired systems for storing important data on, so there could be times you need to do your hacking the "old fashioned" way.
OSUMacbeth
In response to the whole "adepts and mages can do many things" concept, I'd like to put forth the following:

In third edition D&D there is the concept of a "gestalt character." This was a character who, every time they leveled, got the full benefits of TWO classes rather than one. I was originally adamantly opposed to this idea. What power-mongering cheese! However, the book went on to explain (correctly, I later discovered) that no matter how many things you are good at, you still only get one action a turn. (More in SR, but the point applies.) It then went on to say that gestalt characters weren't as overpowered as you might think, for this reason, sick synergies notwithstanding. (Granted, I only used this option because my group was suicidally under-manned, but it worked out better than I could have hoped.)

In SR this becomes even more obvious, because while a mage or adept can indeed hack (and on a mythical unlimited karma timeline gain immense power in every discipline) in practice this is rarely the case. One way or another, you're spending karma for all those skills and stats. In a game that rewards specialization, I'm not too worried about the hacking mage out-hacking the hacker, or the hacker adept being able to fight worth a damn.

OSUMacbeth

PS: Hacker adepts are probably overpowered. Anyone else think it was a *really* bad idea to link AR hacking passes to physical attributes? I do, which is why that's not quite the case in my games.
2bit
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Apr 24 2007, 04:18 PM)
Also I could see that installations still would have hardwired systems for storing important data on, so there could be times you need to do your hacking the "old fashioned" way.

That's really moot, though; commlinks are going to have data interfaces to plug into those systems. No head hole necessary. . . Unless you plan on hacking in "naked"? (decker spurs for the lose!)

or did i misunderstand?
hobgoblin
you can be a hot hacker, or a hot adept, but can you be hot doing both? or will you just be lukewarm? silly.gif
Ravor
QUOTE (JonathanC)
I don't recall there being much in the way of tech to detect mages in the SR4 book, but I could be wrong. Astral recon aside...if someone tosses a manaball at you, your only protection is your Willpower and your mage buddy, unless you sunk points into being magic resistant, which will come back to bite you when you want some magical healing.


All true, provided that the corp in question hasn't thought much about how to handle magical threats. First off any corp worthy of their A+ status should have a pretty good sensor net throughout any facility that is deemed likely to come under assualt by Shadowrunners. Among other things, this sensor net should feed info into a dedicated Agent whose task is to classify the precieved threat levels and estimated intruder posistions to the security teams via AR.

Some of the factors used by the Agent to determine the probable treat level of any given Runner is the sensor data from the various MAD, Cyberware, Chem Sniffers, ect that make up the sensor net, too much cyberware and gunpowder flags you as a probable Street Sammie, where-as very little if any cyber will flag you as possibly magically active, ect and the sec-guards will react accordingly.

Now this system isn't perfect, and a good Decker can use it against the sec-team, but then again I'd imagine that in any secured facitlity worthy of the title, an intruder alert will page at least one Security Decker to log on and help ensure that the system is still fuctioning properly.

As for countermeasures against Mages themselves, although I don't remember if they have appeared in Fourth Edition yet or not, clouds of FAB can come in handy, if I remember correctly in addition to the really nasty versions which can kill an Astrally Active Mage their are more beign versions which 'merely' acted as background count.

And even if my aging memory is failing me with FAB, any decent security system should include enviromental factors such as using strobing lights, aka Flash Paks, releasing the various Smoke, and even simply turning off the lights to stack up as many vision modifiers as possible against the Runners, and if the Mage in question hasn't taken my advise and paid Essence for some good Cybereyes then he's especially fragged since he'd no longer have a decent Dicepool to throw mojo around even if he's able to get LOS to his target.

As for a sec-guard being fragged if hit with a powerful Manabolt, sure, but then again he's just as fragged when the Street Sammy hits him with a narrow burst from an assualt rifle loaded with ASPD or ex-ex.

QUOTE (JonathanC)
A mage, by contrast, can resist bullets using magic quite well, and can wear armor too. Mages, in the games I've seen, have the highest armor, most initiative passes, and highest damage potential of anyone else in the games I've played in/run.


And I'd say that your DM either doesn't know the rules or has a Mage Fetish/Phobia. In addition to a nice glowing halo which screams 'geek me', he is either taking a hefty Sustaining Penality for holding up all of those spells or is a textbook case for Foci Addiction, which is still bad news even in Fourth Edition

QUOTE (JonathanC)
...and now they can hack too, without any essence loss necessary.


Of course, any BP/Karma that is sunk into being able to Deck is BP/Karma that isn't sunk into being able to actually throw around the mojo which you seem to be afraid of. Not to mention that unless some new magical law has been discovered, even a Great Dragon can't be in two places at once so even the best Decker/Wizard won't be able to do both at the same time.
JonathanC
I don't think a single sustaining foci (or even two) is enough to risk foci addiction. As for only being in one place at a time...how often do you really need a hacker and a mage at exactly the same time?
Demerzel
QUOTE (JonathanC)
I don't think a single sustaining foci (or even two) is enough to risk foci addiction.

Depends on how often you use it of course. How many BTLs does it take? Does it matter if you use it some of the time or all of the time?

The wasy SR4 handles Focus addiction it is abstracted rather than quantified to allow the GM to use it as a tool to counter percieved abuse. So there really is not way to say, this is the way it is or that is the way it is...
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (2bit)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Apr 24 2007, 04:18 PM)
Also I could see that installations still would have hardwired systems for storing important data on, so there could be times you need to do your hacking the "old fashioned" way.

That's really moot, though; commlinks are going to have data interfaces to plug into those systems. No head hole necessary. . . Unless you plan on hacking in "naked"? (decker spurs for the lose!)

or did i misunderstand?

...if the commlink is a headware implant (as Violet has), you would still need a datajack to interface with any totally hardwired system that didn't have wireless access.
OSUMacbeth
I think my question would be "How often do you need a *good* hacker or mage at the same time. Pit your hacker-mage against my mage in combat and I will smoke you. Same goes in the matrix against a dedicated hacker. The idea of the gestalt thing was that you can bring different kinds of force to bear at different times, but your amount of exertable force at any given moment remains the same. Of course, a mage that was excellent at both aspects could improve their team's *overall* power, through flexiblility, but that's really another discussion.

OSUMacbeth
Ravor
QUOTE (JonathanC)
I don't think a single sustaining foci (or even two) is enough to risk foci addiction.


Well in order to have the HIGHEST armor, the MOST initiative passes, ect, you are looking at running at least three High Force Foci, one for the Glowing 'Geek Me' Armor, one to run 'Combat Sense', and a third to run 'Improved Reflexes'. Although I tend to agree that Foci Addition isn't somthing that a Mage with a couple of Sustaining Foci should be hit with, once you start getting into the multiple high Force Foci nessary to build the "uber mage" you seem to be ranting against I say that Foci Addiction is a prefectly reasonable counterbalance and to not use it is evidence of a Mage Fetish/Phobia.

QUOTE (JonathanC)
As for only being in one place at a time...how often do you really need a hacker and a mage at exactly the same time?


Well I could respond by asking how often will a character ever have enough Karma/BP to really make a Super Decker/Mage work? However, in the interest of actually answering your question, the answer is in any decently designed secure facility you'd need a full time Decker in order to counter the Security Spider and his bag of tricks and that only a very stupid Runner team wouldn't also have a Mage at the ready to deal with whatever possible Magical Security may pop up. So I'd say fairly often unless you are only playing in the minor leagues.
Jack Kain
Datajack: A datajack allows a user to directly interface with any electronic device via a fiberoptic cable. Datajacks also allow users to slot and mentally access chips, softs, and BTLs.

Here's a common practice you can use.

Assume for a moment you have a closed system to wireless network.
It is never once said that comlinks can plug into closed systems that I can remember anyway. And if its an old system from 5 years ago. Its access ports might all be datajack ports.

A datajack is a direct neural link and can be used for things like Linquasoft and Knowsofts. Instead of a sim module. (active softs still need skill wires).

I also imagine that trodes could be come quite uncomfortable to wear. Especially if your sweating.


Say you have cybereyes and a smartlink system installed in them. If your afraid of a hacking danger you can plug your smartgun into your datajack. (I don't see skinlink transmitting through eyes to your contacts)

A datajack can be used for rigging vehicles. (Ie Bulldog vans, city master's not drones).
Plug directly into your vehicle and drive hands free with no wireless signals going anywhere.

Demerzel
QUOTE (Jack Kain @ Apr 24 2007, 04:29 PM)
Datajack: A datajack allows a user to directly interface with any electronic device via a fiberoptic cable. Datajacks also allow users to slot and mentally access chips, softs, and BTLs.

I think you have to strike BTLs from that list. If you want to experience BTLs you need Hot Sim and therefore need a Sim Module. The text says you can bypass the sim module requirement for linguasofts and knowsofts, nothing about the sim experience.

Edit: And furthermore access to chips may be limited to your ability to process the data. You may need an image link to read text in a text file that you can connect to via the datajack, a sound link for sound, etc. The Knowsofts and Linguasofts are the only specified examples of data that can be directly processed.
Jaid
QUOTE (Big D)
... Here we go again. I guess it's been too long since the last mage/sam fight.

QUOTE
There are some who would say a Hacker Adept is the best hacker concept availiable . . .


I could definitely see an argument made for that, assuming that the HA is very specialized. At higher levels, a TM would probably overtake them, but anywhere near chargen, the HA would probably win.

Of course, if you want pure cheese, go with the AR-using high-force Ally (with quickened F4 Imp Ref). You get to have your cake, eat it, mortgage it, sell it, and collect insurance on it.

oh heck no, for specialisation you can't beat a technomancer. if there's one thing a technomancer *can* do, it's specialise. specialise at tremendous cost and to the point of near uselessness at anything else, but specialise nonetheless.

i imagine this is what makes TM tribes so scary... when you've got a couple of bruisers running around with rating 9 attack/black hammer/blackout CFs, you don't want to be making anyone angry (and before you bust out the argument about the usual attributes/skills being 3, that is the usual. resonance 3, start off with CF 3, thread it to 6 with your software(threading) of 3(+2) (slightly unlikely to succeed, but you can choose to use 0 successes... which means you just keep trying until you get it), then take a rating 3 bound sprite (free of charge) and have it boost your CF when needed. consider the bruiser TM can borrow those sprites from a TM who specialises in sprites, this isn't all that unlikely either. if he can borrow a rating 4 sprite, that puts him to a nice even 10, for a dicepool of 15 (17 if specialised) and dealing minimum 11 damage if he hits you. throw in codeslinger for another 2 dice and even more specialisation, and you've got one scary cybercombatant.

now imagine there's 4 or 5 of them... and each has 2-3 sprites tossing around electron storms, boosting their stealth CF, etc. scary thought, no?

Demon_Bob
Was wondering how you get above rating 6 on a Commlink?
My Matrrix-Fu is weak.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Demon_Bob)
Was wondering how you get above rating 6 on a Commlink?
My Matrrix-Fu is weak.

last time i checked, a TM do not use a comlink, and therefor, like a mage or adept, do not have a "hard" upper limit wink.gif
Demon_Bob
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
QUOTE (Demon_Bob @ Apr 25 2007, 01:08 AM)
Was wondering how you get above rating 6 on a Commlink?
My Matrrix-Fu is weak.

last time i checked, a TM do not use a comlink, and therefor, like a mage or adept, do not have a "hard" upper limit wink.gif

Oh, Ya, Right. Silly me. Still rating 9?
JonathanC
QUOTE (Jack Kain)
Datajack: A datajack allows a user to directly interface with any electronic device via a fiberoptic cable. Datajacks also allow users to slot and mentally access chips, softs, and BTLs.

Here's a common practice you can use.

Assume for a moment you have a closed system to wireless network.
It is never once said that comlinks can plug into closed systems that I can remember anyway. And if its an old system from 5 years ago. Its access ports might all be datajack ports.

A datajack is a direct neural link and can be used for things like Linquasoft and Knowsofts. Instead of a sim module. (active softs still need skill wires).

I also imagine that trodes could be come quite uncomfortable to wear. Especially if your sweating.


Say you have cybereyes and a smartlink system installed in them. If your afraid of a hacking danger you can plug your smartgun into your datajack. (I don't see skinlink transmitting through eyes to your contacts)

A datajack can be used for rigging vehicles. (Ie Bulldog vans, city master's not drones).
Plug directly into your vehicle and drive hands free with no wireless signals going anywhere.

There's nothing to suggest that trodes are uncomfortable while sweating; on the contrary, the book describes trode paste being worn by clubbers on the dance floor...where I guarantee they would be sweating.

As for driving your car...you need to be interfacing the car with your PAN anyway, so it's going through your commlink. Might as well be using trodes for that.
Jaid
QUOTE (Demon_Bob)
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Apr 24 2007, 06:37 PM)
QUOTE (Demon_Bob @ Apr 25 2007, 01:08 AM)
Was wondering how you get above rating 6 on a Commlink?
My Matrrix-Fu is weak.

last time i checked, a TM do not use a comlink, and therefor, like a mage or adept, do not have a "hard" upper limit wink.gif

Oh, Ya, Right. Silly me. Still rating 9?

yes, rating 9. the TM is limited to a base CF rating equal to their resonance (that is, no CF rating may exceed their resonance). they are then able to thread the CF higher, for an additional amount equal to their resonance (up to total of their resonance doubled, in other words), with consequences roughly similar to a mage casting and sustaining a spell.

they can then have a registered sprite (merely compiled sprites are insufficient) add the sprite's rating to the CF, with no upper limit mentioned (it only lasts a few combat rounds iirc, and expends a task). the example i used was, in keeping with the theme of "average", a rating 3 sprite.

naturally, with a properly min/maxed technomancer, this can go substantially higher, even at chargen. theoretically up to rating 12 plus whatever the sprite's rating is. so theoretically (although this is so mindbogglingly unlikely it's hardly worth mentioning) a chargen technomancer could compile and register a rating 12* sprite, for a total CF rating of 24. that being said, i'd like to see the technomancer that can consistently and reliably register rating 12 sprites from chargen.

* this is actually open to debate. a sprite theoretically only lasts 8 hours from it's compiling, and it takes 1 hour per rating to register the sprite. i assume this was not intended to prevent you from registering sprites above rating 8, but if such is not the case, the best would be a rating 8 sprite, which would have to be compiled and then immediately registered. this would mean chargen maxes out at 20 (mind you, it's not terribly likely, and involves taking a lot of fading...)
Demerzel
QUOTE (Jaid)
* this is actually open to debate. a sprite theoretically only lasts 8 hours from it's compiling, and it takes 1 hour per rating to register the sprite. i assume this was not intended to prevent you from registering sprites above rating 8, but if such is not the case, the best would be a rating 8 sprite, which would have to be compiled and then immediately registered. this would mean chargen maxes out at 20 (mind you, it's not terribly likely, and involves taking a lot of fading...)

I similar timer problem exists with insect spirits. Where evanesence (probably spelled wrong) times out an insect under the right circumstances before it gets the opportuninty to complete the merge. In that case Synner has said that the timer stops at the beginning of the process. So, I'd consider that a valid enough precedent for this case.
TheOOB
There really isn't many good reasons to use a datajack as a shadowrunner, at least no reason good enough to lose essence over.

The way I see it, most people who have datajacks either a) had them installed before the 2nd crash back when they where still the way to go, or b) are "normal" citizens who use them out of convienance.

A datajacks main use is that is convienant, it's always with you, you never lose it or misplace it. Sure it's not as cash or essence efficient as trodes, but most people don't care about essence loss and might willing to pay a little extra to always have the jack.

Shadowrunners, on the otherhand, care about efficiency more then anything else, the money and essence spent on a datajack could easily be spent someone else, unlike a normal person shadowrunners risk their life for a living, and thus they need to spend their resources as carefully as possible, lest they not make it back from their next run.
Wasabi
Jaid, Registering is a seperate process from Compiling. Without Edge dice to get net hits the TM needs (Registering+Resonance) > (Sprite Rating)+(Sprite Rating) so usually for a minmaxed TM with Resonance 6 and Registering 7+specialization+codeslinger in registering for a total of 17 dice would net 1 hit average on a rating ((17-3)/2)= rating 7. Fading for same would be (14/3 hits)*2P=(4.66*2)P=9.33P

For a dwarf with pain editor and exceptional attribute that would be around 4P damage per 7 hours.

Forget rating 12. Rating 7 is nigh impossible without a Hospital lifestyle although if you have resonance 7 from Submerging can be quite effective once the stun wears off...
Wasabi
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Apr 24 2007, 11:31 AM)
He claimed (and I could not find anything to contradict him) that you can hot-sim using trodes

for me the million nuyen question is can you hack via full VR through a skinlink.
The Jopp
The datajack is actually needed for skinlinking information from cyberware to (for example) a skinlinked smartlink.

Skinlink
Device for sending information along the surface of the skin

Datajack
DNI device linked to other cyberware and a usable tool for wired transmissions and secure data transfer.

The conclusion I could find after reading through the RAW is that in order to have smartlinked information reach your cybereye display link you need the following:

Image Link --> Datajack (Skinlinked) --> Smartgun (Skinlinked)
Rotbart van Dainig
Of course, you simply could get an internal comlink with skinlink, a sim module and save the datajack.
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