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Wounded Ronin
According to http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18299072/ Miss America has been posing as a 14 year old online in order to entrap pedophiles. She would lure the pedophiles to a house and then the cops would get them. It's funny because she says
QUOTE

“That part was very scary, but the police were all over the place,” Nelson said. “I was nervous, of course, but it was a very controlled environment, very safe.”


Whereas in fact probably most people coming to visit her probably weren't physically dangerous so much as generally sleazy.

The thing is that this setup sounds like it would work really well for a role playing game. It's kind of funny, the main character is engaging, and I think that it could work for the gaming table if, say, the player characters were the cops who had to capture the perps without hurting them and at the same time assure the safety of Miss America. For modern-day role playing where you can do this internet based setup it could be an entertaining and pretty easy situation to ease players into a new system, or something like that.

The flip side is that I keep thinking of how one guy who used to play Shadowrun with me would want to play the role of Miss America and furthermore make her magical or something. Noooooooo!
hyzmarca
In a world where virtual sex is just as good as (sometimes better than) the real thing without all of the hassle or STDs, I'd think that there would be far more work involved than just waiting for the fellow to come to the house.
They'd probably have to trace the signal and get to his jackpoint while they are still having cybersex.
mfb
hm. is cybering with the underaged illegal?
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (mfb)
hm. is cybering with the underaged illegal?

That's a good question, isn't it? Could that be considered contributing to the deliquincy of a minor? Endangering the welfare of a minor?
hyzmarca
QUOTE (mfb)
hm. is cybering with the underaged illegal?

Assuming that you don't use obscure polite-sounding euphemisms from the 1940s, it counts as transmission of obscene materials to minors and is a Federal crime in addition to being a crime in most States and many foreign countries. In addition, there may be other charges such as contributing to delinquency or child endangerment, depending on jurisdiction.

In the Sixth World, however, there is no real difference between cybersex and the real thing, aside from the obvious. Having sex with a person's avatar is the same as having sex with the person, minus STD risks and the individual's physical limitations.
mfb
well, no, there's a huge difference. the only parallels they have are the sensations--everything else is completely different.
Demon_Bob
Would they have to be a minor in the country of the perp or the "minor"?
mfb
not just country, state too. no idea.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (mfb @ Apr 24 2007, 10:52 PM)
well, no, there's a huge difference. the only parallels they have are the sensations--everything else is completely different.

And what else is there, really? Sensations are pretty much the entire point of sex, along with whatever emotions that it might elicit.
STDs and pregnancy are real concerns, of course, but the risks can largely be negated by condoms. The entire modern rationale for statutory rape laws rests on the possibility of emotional damage from sex and VR would elicit the same emotions that physical sex would in the same circumstances.

If it is interstate, then that is Federal. In most cases, both jurisdictions will have a claim and the perp will get screwed over by the most restrictive one.
mfb
there's the mutual knowledge that cybersex isn't real. that knowledge is necessarily going to change how it affects the minor. cybering, whether it's with text or with simsense, is nothing more than jerking off at the same time. simsense sex with a minor is no different than sending a pr0n simsense recording to a minor. you'd be guilty of corrupting a minor and related charges, sure, but not statutory rape.
Kagetenshi
hyzmarca: since orgasm temporarily shuts down the emotional centers of the brain, I don't think there's much to be said for the emotions being the point.

I think a good run for the people who run "morally upstanding" campaigns would be to kill off Miss America, and possibly her police escort.

~J
hyzmarca
QUOTE (mfb @ Apr 24 2007, 11:37 PM)
there's the mutual knowledge that cybersex isn't real. that knowledge is necessarily going to change how it affects the minor. cybering, whether it's with text or with simsense, is nothing more than jerking off at the same time. simsense sex with a minor is no different than sending a pr0n simsense recording to a minor. you'd be guilty of corrupting a minor and related charges, sure, but not statutory rape.

Speak for yourself. I've had cyber-relationships that were every bit as intense as physical relationships are and it is quite possible to share an emotionally charged moment through the magic of one-handed typing and the human imagination. Some married couples who live apart maintain (relatively) healthy relationships through cyber- and phone-sex. I can understand how some vulnerable individuals could be screwed up by a bad cyber-sexual relationship today. VR just makes things even more real. When those bonding chemicals start flowing in your brain, it doesn't matter if they're tying you to a physical person or a block of text or a VR avatar, the end result is the same .


QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
hyzmarca: since orgasm temporarily shuts down the emotional centers of the brain, I don't think there's much to be said for the emotions being the point.
Orgasms are overrated. I don't believe that there is any adult who could reasonably disagree with me on this. The average individual discovers masturbation around 11 or 12. After a decade of it, orgasms are really rather boring.
What comes before the orgasm is the important part, the build up and, ideally, the unique connection to another human being. If it isn't crappy porn movie sex, if there is a connection there, then it is special even if that connection only lasts for a moment.
But the real payoff comes after. Post-coital cuddling. The sheer joy and contentment that post-coital cuddling can produce is abso-fucking-lutly amazing. If you did it right, if you have time to cuddle and if you actually care about the person attached to your crotch, then the cuddling is better than a billion orgasms. I dare anyone to claim otherwise.

Out brains are designed to forge emotional bonds as a result of sex. This is a good thing, really. It is what transforms a pair of horny and irresponsible cave-teenagers into a loving nuclear family. It is why humanity rules the planet, along with the opposable thumb. But, that natural bonding response can work to hurt us if there are different expectations in the relationship. And if a naive kid who thinks that he or she has found true love gets thrown away like a used toy, that just hurts.
mfb
those are all very shaky claims, hyz, because they're all based on your experience. you might be able to bond via cybersex the same way you'd bond with traditional sex, but that doesn't mean it works for everyone. there are plenty of people--maybe even the majority--for whom the online world is a place to act like someone else completely. that change in the way they choose to interact with others is going to have a pronounced effect on how they bond with others online, and how their experiences online are going to affect them.

and there are millions of adults who'd disagree with you on the orgasm vs cuddling issue, simply because they don't value relationships like you do. relationships are hard work and full of risk; getting laid is relatively easy, with relatively easily-managed risks. settling for the easy prize instead of risking failure in pursuit of the greater prize is a perfectly legitimate choice for an adult.
nezumi
To sort of bring this back to SR... If the UCAS laws are at all similar to US laws, anything sexual with or of a minor would be illegal. However, relationships with a person dressed as and acting like a minor would be legal (and probably quite common), and matrix sex with cartoon minors would be legal.

In the CAS, I rather suspect both would be illegal, but poorly enforced.
pbangarth
As I read it, hyzmarca was actually refuting the categorical statement that there is no emotional connection through cyberspace. His one counterexample is enough to do that.

As far as the post-coitus cuddling thing goes, make that a minority of two of us, then. Also, hyzmarca alludes to a partial chemical basis to this sensation, which would suggest it is more than an individual's taste.
ShadowDragon8685
I would also note that this is the dystopian world of Shadowrun we're talking about. As long as you don't try to (openly) marry a 13-year-old, I imagine that they don't actually give two goddamns what you do with minors, unless you do it with a rich minor whose parents will get angry.

And of course, there's SINless - less than people, who cares about their emotional instability? Nobody.
mfb
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Apr 25 2007, 07:17 AM)
As I read it, hyzmarca was actually refuting the categorical statement that there is no emotional connection through cyberspace.  His one counterexample is enough to do that.

not at all. the argument is whether there'd be a legal basis in SR for calling it statutory rape when you have cybersex with a minor. hyzmarca says yes, because some people can for the same types of bonds they'd make over physical sex; i say no, because most people don't. this is especially true in a dystopian setting like SR--technology doesn't make us more human, in cyberpunk, it makes us less.

QUOTE (pbangarth)
As far as the post-coitus cuddling thing goes, make that a minority of two of us, then.  Also, hyzmarca alludes to a partial chemical basis to this sensation, which would suggest it is more than an individual's taste.

i'm not disputing that many people enjoy cuddling more than orgasms. what i'm disputing is the idea that there are no adults who enjoy the orgasm more.
pbangarth
Well there you go. That's all cleared up then. smile.gif
Ravor
I have to agree with ShadowDragon8685, in the cynical and depraved world of Shadowrun I'm having a hard time believing that sex with minors would be illegal at all.

Of course, if the minor's parents were rich enough I'm sure they could convince Lonestar to toss the offender into a cell with Bubba the Love Troll and throw away the key on some trumped up charges...
nezumi
I disagree, I think it will be illegal in the UCAS. Why? Who makes the laws? The rich people. Who do the laws protect? The rich people. If I was a rich person, I would feel the possibility of some SINless ork (because we know they start getting sexually aggressive at a deviantly young age) would try to put moves on my little girl. That should be illegal, and Lone Star needs the tools to put that ork in jail.

Now of course, if *I* want to pursue some twelve year old, I just do it on corp property where the law isn't so stringent (I can't imagine Renraku feeling especially negative towards such things) or I go get some SINless slitch who, after all, we can't prove was twelve in the first place even if we wanted to.

So in a dystopian setting, I have no question the law would be in the books. It would be enforced regularly, specifically against:
People dating the rich guy's daughter
Orks doing anything in public
People lured into honey traps for exciting shows on prime time TV
Some young fellow accused of kissing his girlfriend who is two years younger than him, and is tried primarily by the masses watching on above prime time TV

It would NOT be used against:
Anyone with the money to enjoy brothels with extraterritoriality
Anyone with the money to create a convincing story as to why this twelve year old is naked in his private estate
Anyone who preys solely on the SINless masses

Dystopia for me is a world where soccer moms rule and have their nice little garden estates, while leaving the rest of the world to the wolves.
mfb
definitely. and if Miss America is going after corporate pedophiles, she probably won't last long. some sort of tragic boating accident while she's skiing in the Rockies.
knasser

I'd like to say how much I admire the way hyz goes so smoothly from cybersex with minors to the superiority of cuddling over orgasms. This is clearly a person who thinks things through from first principles rather than social conditioning. smile.gif

QUOTE (mfb)
there are plenty of people--maybe even the majority--for whom the online world is a place to act like someone else completely.


Surely how you act online cannot be a completely different person to who you are. Quite possibly for many people it's a chance to be more who they feel they are. The anonymity that pure text gives us can cut through many social restraints. Can you swear that we would have the same type of conversation in person if for example you were 37 and I were 14? Or vice versa. Or any combination of genders, builds, loudmouthed confidence or social inhibition? Who is to say that behaviour in RL is more valid than behaviour online.

Incidentally, back on the subject of Shadowrun, it doesn't have to be SIMsense sex as a substitute. 2070 tech seems capable of cloning bodies of any particular age. Please try not to think about this too much. I'd guess in 2070 that would not be criminal, but might have a severe social stigma. Abuse of real children would remain criminal, IMO but given the shift of view to sex being a normal, healthy activity, the age of consent might lower.
SirBedevere
QUOTE (nezumi)
Dystopia for me is a world where soccer moms rule and have their nice little garden estates, while leaving the rest of the world to the wolves.

I agree too.

Don't forget about the laws regarding matrix presence. How legal or otherwise anything is depends on where you are in the Matrix
nezumi
"Incidentally, back on the subject of Shadowrun, it doesn't have to be SIMsense sex as a substitute. 2070 tech seems capable of cloning bodies of any particular age."

SR clones are basically vegetables. I guess if you are content knocking your victim out then raping him or her, a clone would suffice (although I rather imagine you don't get as much of a thrill out of it), but otherwise I can't imagine that a clone would compare to simsense or a bunraku, surgically altered dwarf.
mfb
QUOTE (knasser)
Surely how you act online cannot be a completely different person to who you are. Quite possibly for many people it's a chance to be more who they feel they are. The anonymity that pure text gives us can cut through many social restraints. Can you swear that we would have the same type of conversation in person if for example you were 37 and I were 14? Or vice versa. Or any combination of genders, builds, loudmouthed confidence or social inhibition? Who is to say that behaviour in RL is more valid than behaviour online.

it doesn't have to be completely different, just different enough and often enough. and whether it's acting like something you're not or acting truer to yourself isn't really relevant--the point is, it's different from how you'd act in "real" life, and therefore won't have the same psychological effect. the best you could argue is that cybernetic sex crimes should be their own classification--statutory cyber-rape, cybersexual assault, and so on.
hyzmarca
The fact that cuddling is more of a hassle than meaningless porn-sex doesn't actually change the chemical facts. By the same token, IV heroin provides a much better high than marijuana does. Shooting up is more work and a hell of a lot more work than smoking a little joint and I certainly wouldn't recommend giving up a quiet friendship with Mary Jane for a date with the dragon, but that really doesn't change the payoffs.

Heroin's two acetyl groups allow it to easily pass through the blood-brain barrier and once in the brain those groups are stripped off and the otherwise neurologically pointless drug turns into god old-fashioned morphine (which has more trouble getting to the brain) and does a beautiful waltz with your opioid receptors. Weed only contains about 5% THC by weight. A good bit of this is filtered out in the lungs and even more fails to make it past the blood-brain barrier. What little bit makes it home then does its thing with the cannabinoid receptors. Those are laid back receptors that usually deal with stuff like blood pressure and appetite. Sometimes, they help with pain, but they're not the wild partying receptors that the opioid receptors are. At best, they give you an interesting buzz.

I make this comparison because good cuddling releases a massive amount of dopamine and serotonin directly into the brain. Dopamine is the happy drug. If it get enough of it into your brain then you will be amazingly absurdly impossibly irrationally happy. Serotonin is different. It causes contentment. If you get enough of it into your brain then everything seems alright. If you put them both together in large but nonlethal quantities, that is an incredible high. If you are focusing on someone when these chemicals are released into your brain then you'll begin to associate that person with the high, like those lab rats who keep pressing the blow bar long after the cocaine dispenser has run dry. Love is a chemical addiction. It doesn't even matter if you logically know what you're falling for something that isn't real. If you inject a large dose of dopamine and serotonin directly into your brain while focusing all of your attention onto an oatmeal bax then you are damn sure going to fall in love with that oatmeal box just as the coke-addled rats fall for that one dispenser bar. It might take a couple of times but I assure you that the oatmeal box would soon become the single most important person in your live. You might even consider seeking out an ordained clergyman of a questionable internet church, such as myself, to marry you and the oatmeal box in an illegal and unethical ceremony. And when you stop the injections you'll crash to hard that you'll probably jump off a bridge and you'll certainly want to divorce the oatmeal box. It'll be a messy divorce, too. You'll use the kids against it. I mean, that's just the way it works. Love is a drug addiction. Humans and their loved ones are like lab rats and their coke-bars. And I'm not saying that to demean love. I'm saying it because I'm a hopeless romantic.

Which brings me back to my point.
Now, without the cuddling sex doesn't give you nearly as much serotonin or dopamine, but it does give you a small amount of these chemicals along with endorphines, which are also highly addictive feel-good drugs. And it really doesn't matter how your acting or how you feel about your avatar. It doesn't work that way. Your brain releases these goodies in response to the other person, you really have nothing to do with it, except that you actually have to focus on the other person. Preventing your brain from releasing these highly addictive chemicals requires a Narcissusian level of self-love and indifference to the other person, in which case you might as well must buy a blow-up doll because you're just masturbating.


Of course, Love behaves just like any other chemical dependency. It is very rare to be completely hooked the first time. It depends on how much you take and how often you take it. Different brains release different amounts of these chemicals in response to different stimulus and different brains respond slightly differently to these chemicals.
You probably won't become addicted to a person after a one-night stand and you can kick an addiction by going cold turkey and working through the withdrawals. Time helps a great deal for this. Over time, people even build up tolerances to each other and couples cease make each other produce high levels of dopamine, instead settling into a pure serotonin high. Some people get used to this while others go off searching for another bar to push.

My point is that seducing a 14 year-old girl, fucking her, and dumping her is a crap thing to do. It is no different from giving her a free snort of blow and then refusing to ever supply her again. Doing this over the matrix with a perfect idealized Adonis (or Fabio) avatar designed to push all of her buttons may actually be worse. Such an avatar encourages her brain to produce even more sexual bonding chemicals, not less.

Of course, the sleazy Magic Man love and dump isn't exactly the only possibility here, it is simply the classic scenario. The fact is that simsensense technology opens up so many social consequences that it boggles the mind.
One particular complaint of young people who have been fondled to orgasm against their will is that the sensations were frightening and confusing. So, really, touching a kid's virtual wee-wee would be no less traumatic than touching the real thing.

I do agree that cybersexual crimes would probably be specific offenses under the law, although the exact language would probably vary by jurisdiction. Some jurisdictions today have specific offenses every possible sex act with consenting minors and other specific offenses for the same acts with non-consenting adults, and even worse specific offenses for those sex acts with non-consenting minors. Other jurisdictions opt for simplicity and just lump everything under the heading of rape.


And after spending all day writing that off and on, I have a strong craving for opiates and cuddling. Damn my sober and celibate lifestyle. cyber.gif
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
I make this comparison because good cuddling releases a massive amount of dopamine and serotonin directly into the brain. Dopamine is the happy drug. If it get enough of it into your brain then you will be amazingly absurdly impossibly irrationally happy. Serotonin is different. It causes contentment. If you get enough of it into your brain then everything seems alright.

You do go on to specify "nonlethal", but it should be mentioned that if you get enough dopamine in your brain you may, according to certain hypotheses, experience psychosis, while enough seratonin will cause seratonin syndrome, which is unpleasant and can be fatal.

In general, neither of these will occur without significant chemical assistance, but it's funny to think of cuddling making you break from reality and die.

(Do you have links to the studies regarding a link between cuddling and seratonin/dopamine, or at least to an abstract? I'd be interested in seeing those.)

~J
Enigma
In Australia, particularly Queensland, the police are incredibly skilled at catching internet paedophiles who seek to form relationships with children over the internet for sexual purposes. The relevant agencies are at the world forefront of technology and programming to detect, track, arrest and prosecute such criminals. Believe me when I say it is very, very illegal for someone to use the internet to procure a child for a sexual purpose, or to use the internet to expose a child to indecent material, in Queensland at least. I think this would be a better indication of the way the laws are heading in the future.

I agree Shadowrun is a dystopian world filled with misery and despair in a true cyberpunk sense, however there is nothing positive to be said for the sick individuals who form relationships with children over the net.

I have designed games where the purpose of the game is to track and terminate someone who has tricked a young impressionable person into a relationship, or a meeting - this may be another way to approach this in a Shadowrun sense.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Enigma)
In Australia, particularly Queensland, the police are incredibly skilled at catching internet paedophiles who seek to form relationships with children over the internet for sexual purposes.

Are they? Is there some way they have to obtain the statistics on how many people they don't catch?

~J
Enigma
To a limited extent, yes. The thing about paedophilia is that it can be uncovered in a number of ways, including the complainant or victim making a complaint, or by the detection of internet activity. This means that some comparison can be made of paedophilic activity detected which includes internet activity to internet activity detected, in that a determination can be made of how much ought to have been detected vs how much was detected. It is in this comparison that Queensland scores very high, as I understand it.

There is also intelligence gleaned from paedophile ring activity, such as recovering chat logs from multiple offenders' computers, and on this method of comparison we also score very well, comparatively.

Obviously there is no particular way of showing activity detected vs activity not detected, as is always the case with crime statistics, however other useful comparisons can be made including arrest vs conviction rate and so on.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
(Do you have links to the studies regarding a link between cuddling and seratonin/dopamine, or at least to an abstract? I'd be interested in seeing those.)

~J

Sorry. It's been years since I've had any reason to look this stuff up and I don't have any subscriptions to any of the expensive databases that actually supply academic articles and studies.

I have stuff that I can link to, but nothing that I could justifiably call a study. That's really just a google search away.

I did forget about Oxytocin, a very important bonding chemical which is released by orgasm, cuddling, and breastfeeding. It is a rather important bonding chemical and it actually suppresses the sex drive somewhat (a good thing since it plays a role in parent-child bonding).

From what I understand the three chemicals have a rather interesting relationship. Dopamine encourages the production oxytocin. Oxytocin and serotonin discourage the production of dopamine. Sex encourages dopamine. Orgasm encourages oxytocin. Physical contact encourages the production of all three during the "in love" phase of the relationship. (Every positive interaction encourages dopamine production during the in love phase, so cuddling isn't unique in this regard. It just happens to be efficient.) And being in love discourages serotonin, in general.
When the "in love" phase ends there is substantially less dopamine and the serotonin and the oyxtocin take over, which dopamine junkies often refer to as falling "out of love".

Yes, I do know that it is bad form to make scientific claims without supporting evidence. And I must admit that some of this may have come from a documentary I saw on The Learning Channel.

QUOTE (Enigma)

Obviously there is no particular way of showing activity detected vs activity not detected, as is always the case with crime statistics, however other useful comparisons can be made including arrest vs conviction rate and so on.


Arrest Vs. conviction rate doesn't provide any useful answers by itself. There is no way of knowing is a lack of a conviction was due to insufficient evidence or actual innocence, for example.

QUOTE

I have designed games where the purpose of the game is to track and terminate someone who has tricked a young impressionable person into a relationship, or a meeting - this may be another way to approach this in a Shadowrun sense.

What about predatory young people who trick an impressionable adult into a meeting? There have been cases of teenage girls making dates with middle aged men so that they could get their rocks off by beating the guy senseless and stealing his money, with the assumption that he would be too embarrassed to report the incident to the police.

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
In general, neither of these will occur without significant chemical assistance, but it's funny to think of cuddling making you break from reality and die.

Two words: Cuddle-killer BTLs. Sim-cuddling so intense that it's lethal.
mfb
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
The fact that cuddling is more of a hassle than meaningless porn-sex doesn't actually change the chemical facts.

those facts don't mean anything except that it's possible to prosecute a real relationship online. they don't make cybersex with a minor and statutory rape the same thing, psychologically, because a) there is more to psychology than biochemistry, and b) statutory rape is not defined by the brain chemicals it releases. actually, it's not defined by its psychological effects, either. the law doesn't encompass why something is wrong, only the fact of its wrongness. but assuming that society uses the possibility of psychological damage to formulate laws supporting its preconceived notions about age and sex, then cybersex with a minor and statutory rape are two different things.
tisoz
QUOTE (Demon_Bob)
Would they have to be a minor in the country of the perp or the "minor"?

Current US law makes it illegal for a person to visit a country for the purpose of having sex with young people, even if they are of legal age in the country you visit. If they are illegal where you reside, you can be prosecuted when you return. There seems to be a little wiggle room in that the sole reason for taking the trip was for illicit sex. If, say, you traveled abroad and completed a business deal and your host felt like sealing the deal by hosting an orgy featuring a bunch of barely legal 14 year olds, you may be able to beat the rap.


Another feature of future sex kinkiness would be the Mask spell, changing the target to look underage.
Unarmed
A somewhat related question:

Could a mage be charged with sexual assault for judicious overuse of the orgasm spell on unwilling targets? One could argue that the spell just provokes a physiological response, but the emotions that come with that response are often quite powerful.
Nasrudith
Yeah it would probably be classified as rape. There would be plenty of people that would be afraid of magicians, so even the percieved threat of a pervert mage would probably result in an update of the legal system, if the judges didn't rule that already. This would also lead to the bizarre legal situation that casting agony or flame thrower on a random man on the street would probably carry a lesser sentence than casting orgasm him instead.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (tisoz)
QUOTE (Demon_Bob @ Apr 24 2007, 09:55 PM)
Would they have to be a minor in the country of the perp or the "minor"?

Current US law makes it illegal for a person to visit a country for the purpose of having sex with young people, even if they are of legal age in the country you visit. If they are illegal where you reside, you can be prosecuted when you return. There seems to be a little wiggle room in that the sole reason for taking the trip was for illicit sex. If, say, you traveled abroad and completed a business deal and your host felt like sealing the deal by hosting an orgy featuring a bunch of barely legal 14 year olds, you may be able to beat the rap.


Another feature of future sex kinkiness would be the Mask spell, changing the target to look underage.

Yar, they decided to really drop the hammer on people going on sex tours in Asia. Apparently one of the big attractions of those sex tours was the fact that you could indeed have t3h illegal sex there.
knasser
QUOTE (Nasrudith)
Yeah it would probably be classified as rape. There would be plenty of people that would be afraid of magicians, so even the percieved threat of a pervert mage would probably result in an update of the legal system, if the judges didn't rule that already. This would also lead to the bizarre legal situation that casting agony or flame thrower on a random man on the street would probably carry a lesser sentence than casting orgasm him instead.


It's not that bizarre. Many people deal with pain and aggression better than they do humiliation and / or sexual violation. That may even be a reasonable priority. I'd have to think about whether there's a logically supportable reason for that or if it's purely social conditioning.

But certainly causing someone to have an orgasm is more overtly threatening to someone's free will and freedom of choice than violence and pain which there are socially and psychologically acceptable ways of dealing with it. We can rationalise damaging magic as equivalent to physical violence. Nasty, but what do we rationalise orgasm as equivalent to. Lacking ready equivalents, there are no preconceptions and familiarity to ameliorate the shock of something wrong being done.
Unarmed
QUOTE (knasser)

It's not that bizarre. Many people deal with pain and aggression better than they do humiliation and / or sexual violation. That may even be a reasonable priority. I'd have to think about whether there's a logically supportable reason for that or if it's purely social conditioning.

But certainly causing someone to have an orgasm is more overtly threatening to someone's free will and freedom of choice than violence and pain which there are socially and psychologically acceptable ways of dealing with it. We can rationalise damaging magic as equivalent to physical violence. Nasty, but what do we rationalise orgasm as equivalent to. Lacking ready equivalents, there are no preconceptions and familiarity to ameliorate the shock of something wrong being done.

I honestly don't like the Orgasm spell very much, because, as fun as it might be, there's not a lot of times in the life of a shadowrunner where you're going to be using it on consentual targets, and so you just become kind of a walking sexual harrassment lawsuit.

The question I put forth actually arose out of a conversation that my gaming group had, when another player, who is playing a character that is my character's brother, threatened him with the orgasm spell, and then we wondered if that would actually be considered a form of incest.
mfb
QUOTE (Unarmed)
I honestly don't like the Orgasm spell very much, because, as fun as it might be, there's not a lot of times in the life of a shadowrunner where you're going to be using it on consentual targets, and so you just become kind of a walking sexual harrassment lawsuit.

do runners get sued often in your games...? i mean, not to denigrate the seriousness of sexual assault, but if you're corpsec and a runner mage has the option of fireballing you or staining your undies...
Unarmed
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (Unarmed)
I honestly don't like the Orgasm spell very much, because, as fun as it might be, there's not a lot of times in the life of a shadowrunner where you're going to be using it on consentual targets, and so you just become kind of a walking sexual harrassment lawsuit.

do runners get sued often in your games...? i mean, not to denigrate the seriousness of sexual assault, but if you're corpsec and a runner mage has the option of fireballing you or staining your undies...

I'll take the fireball. wink.gif
mfb
takes all kinds, i suppose. i'd prefer to live to have a pantsplosion another day, myself.
Therumancer
It sounds interesting, but I have mixed feelings on the subject to be honest. IRL one of the things that I've noticed is that a lot of underage children (of both genders) use the internet as a 'safe' place to experiment with sexuality.

I've never been into (or especially good at) "hot chat" or "cyber dating", but especially recently it has occured to me that the situation is becoming ridiculous as someone who is flirting or "hot chatting" with some girl they think is 20+ on a game like WoW, and then later find out that she was only 13 or 14 and "Daddy" noticed or caught a lot or something, and now the FBI is knocking on the guy's door. Even if he doesn't get arrested his life might be cannonballed for being added to a list of offenders.

Nothing directly to do with Miss America, but that kind of entrapment is a touchy subject, and one of the reasons why entrapment is not supposed to happen in this country at least. Besides which, I seem to remember these Pagent queens are held to some standards of conduct while representing the country, and I don't think that pretending to be a sexually active 14 year old online is something that a lady in that position should be doing, motives aside.

-

As far as Shadowrun goes, I don't think that much in the way of sexual behavior is "illegal". Understand that the US has reduced in power, and been overtaken in importance by corperations, and even various eastern nations with differant sexual standards. One could write an encyclopedia on the sexual deviations common in Japan alone, with this behavior being somewhat mainstream.

At any rate given that Sinless people basically have no rights and don't even exist, what's been mentioned about the human slave trade in various books, and other things, I don't think there are many standards, even in the UCAS. Sure a specific corperate nation might have standards of public conduct for their employees, but what they do behind closed doors is going to be their own business. They aren't going to sacrifice some multi-billion nuyen employee because he's a pederest or whatever.

Sexual blackmail would be more of an embarassment thing, than a legal one I'd imagine.

Among the Sinless there is noone enforcing any kind of standards, and a guy who wants to have sex with children probably isn't going to be seen as a big deal. I'd imagine the "limits of good taste" have probably been pushed up to the point where "snuff" is still considered wrong, but there is an increasingly large trade in it semi-underground.

Part of the thing to consider is that along with the general reversion to barbarity and a "might makes right" pecking order (even among the Corps) is that nations that never had a problem with things like child sex never had to grow up to modern US standards and yet are becoming economically powerful and are influancing what's left of the "civilized world" combined with the various corperate vices.

I'm not explaining it very well perhaps, but the bottom line is that I think the level of depravity going on is part of what makes Shadowrun a "Dark" future (by our standards). It's just that few people are interested in going there for the comfort of the players and such, not to mention the fact that one still has to get the books published.

Let's not forget that this is a world where they televise bloodsports and such. Then you've got the whole human-sacrifice/torture thing in places like Aztlan. Sexual deviancy is minor in a way when you think about it.

>>>----Therumancer--->










Kyoto Kid
...finally was able to read through this (didn't feel it was a SFW topic).

Too bad this discussion didn't appear a couple of months ago. Though it still gives me a few ideas for future reference.

A while back, had a mage PC in the campaign I was running who loved using the Orgasm spell. Would have been real fun if suddenly the Star's vice squad was busting down her door after the offended NPCs involved had decided to press charges of rape by spell. The worst part for the PC, one of the NPC's was slightly developmentally disabled, an important foreign national, and the adopted daughter of a very influential and powerful UK citizen.

...can you say, potential International Incident?
mfb
so, am i just being a typically insensitive male, or what, when i find that scenario--vice cops busting down a runner's door--somewhat... ludicrous in the face of all the other crimes runners are typically guilty of? murder, theft, kidnapping, sale of state secrets--but they're gonna come after you because you cast Orgasm instead of Chaotic World!?

i mean, don't get me wrong, it's definitely possible that you'd get busted for that. i don't want to rain on anyone's parade and say it couldn't happen. but it'd be pretty out of the ordinary. maybe if someone wanted to create an international incident, to use KK's example.
Kagetenshi
I'm going to have to agree. I find it very difficult to believe that a Lone Star officer would care about someone complaining that they were just made to orgasm by a spell. We are not talking people who care about the citizenry and their emotional health here.

~J
Kyoto Kid
...Maybe I should have provided a bit more detail.

In this case it was used as part of a totally unprovoked assault on the NPC group by the PC mage (and another PC) who had the intent to coerce and abduct said individual (the young woman who basically has the outlook and personality of a thirteen to fourteen year old). Prior to this there was a verbal altercation at a cafe during which threats were made by the two PCs & at one point a spirit was used to possess another individual of the NPC Party (which was subsequently banished by the NPCs' mage). Now, the PC mage thought she had reason to believe she knew the NPC (in a way, it was a case of mistaken identity based on a previous run) but the situation deteriorated rapidly when the NPC calmly insisted she had never met the PCs. When the young woman's bodyguards intervened and politely asked the mage to leave (even though she had been extremely abusive and insulting to them) was when the PC "went off". During this initial exchange, there were a number of witnesses (the other patrons of the cafe). As the NPC party was preparing to leave the scene there was a second attempt during which the Orgasm spell was cast and sustained over a length of time in order to incapacitate them enough to commandeer their limo.

The key issue here, it was a series of totally unprovoked "attacks". Granted it didn't totally stem from the orgasm spell alone, but based on other comments in this thread the use of the spell could still be seen as a clear affront of the NPCs' free will and, given the right legal spin, (particularly in the case of the young woman), seen as a violation of their personal "privacy". In short, to the right lawyer(s) it could be viewed as a landmark case. Keep in mind the NPC party are citizens of the Crown, where there are very strict laws governing the use of magic and astral space.

The other key here is this young woman is the daughter of a very influential person of the UK nobility who has a lot of clout.

I would say this could be a fairly serious situation and given testimony of both the NPC party and witnesses, would be a cause for LoneStar to act to seek out and arrest the offending mage and her accomplice (if anything, to keep an ugly political incident from occurring). Now granted this scene took place in 2070 (& I know, I know, this is the general SR forum, however this subject is relevant to both forums), when LoneStar's rep with the metroplex is on the rocks. Acting on and bringing such a potentially high profile case like this to a swift close could be seen by some in the organisation as benefiting the Star's relationship with the Governor's office.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Apr 29 2007, 09:00 PM)
In this case it was used as part of a totally unprovoked assault

Sounds like every shadowrun.

QUOTE
The other key here is this young woman is the daughter of a very influential person of the UK nobility who has a lot of clout.

This is the part that matters, not the fact that there was a crime (or the nature of that crime). Even if there's no crime whatsoever, this means the team is in trouble, and if it wasn't the case it's pretty unlikely there would be anything to worry about. The nature of this incident just means the Star grunts involved get a new fantasy to wank to.

~J
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Sounds like every shadowrun

...and maybe runners occasionally need to learn there are consequences when they act before they think and pull this kind of stuff.

QUOTE
The nature of this incident just means the Star grunts involved get a new fantasy to wank to.

...the individual grunt cop may not care, I'll give that much. On the other hand Star management just might & they are the one's issuing the orders and signing the paycheques.

QUOTE
QUOTE
The other key here is this young woman is the daughter of a very influential person of the UK nobility who has a lot of clout.

This is the part that matters, not the fact that there was a crime (or the nature of that crime)...

<edit>
...agreed, it comes down to who can play the best game of politik. When haven't we seen this before in RL. However in the eyes of some (mind you not necessarily the NPC party themselves), there may be a precedent for furthering the case on the grounds the young woman and her party were personally violated through use of the spell. This also happens in RL.
nezumi
If the fellow lived in an area where the Star could easily find them and break down his door, he should have been arrested a long time ago for any number of other crimes. If he was smart enough to mostly avoid being tracked, but this one women spent a lot of money tracking him down, then sicced Lone Star on him, I can swallow that as just the vagaries of chance (having targeted a very pissed, very rich woman), but I think Lone Star would put the Vice Squad in the back and have the murder and theft squad in the front. When handed a runner on a silver platter, I doubt they're going to turn a blind eye.

So it's cute, but doesn't really fall into how most people understand Shadowrun working.
Kyoto Kid
...I do tend to run a more politically bent variant where if you step on the wrong toes (even by mistake) and/or others feel can benefit from your missteps you can potentially find yourself in a heap of trouble. Consequences for an acton a character takes one session may not come back to them until two or three sessions down the road. I also tend to make the Star, KE and other law enforcement organisations a bit more conscientious with regard to their responsibilities. In short, law enforcement and the legal machine behind it has sharper teeth. My players are aware of this.

Currently I am running a scenario in London where, by the book, weapons and magic laws are very strict. With the exception of one incident, the characters so far have definitely have risen to the challenge of trying to keep things "on the sly".

Yeah, it is not the totally anarchistic Shadowrun world as most people know but then, the designers do encourage such "tweaking" of the setting.
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