Fix-it
May 5 2007, 04:04 PM
QUOTE (kzt) |
QUOTE (Spike @ May 4 2007, 02:31 PM) | Having worked in 'secure zones' I can assure you it is the opposite. No personal electronics of any kind. Nothing that can, even accidentally, store data, transmit data or anything else with data. Anything that CAN do it and is necessary for the work is kept on-site under lock and key. |
At the main entrance to Sandia Labs they have a large plexiglass locker with lots of little lockable cubbyholes. This for those people who forgot to leave their cell phones and other electronics in the car, so you have a place to secure them before going through the turnstile. (If you carry them inside they can fire you and/or criminally prosecute you).
|
that's interesting. I imagine in 2070, with the widespread practice of carrying for self defense, it would apply to handguns as well.
hobgoblin
May 6 2007, 07:45 PM
hmm, could it be that the comlinks carried in the office is corp approved ones that one is handed when entering? or maybe ones that are locked down tight by the corp spiders, so that the functionality is limited?
also, it may be that said workers are living on corp property, eating corp food and all that. as in, its just as much a tag for tracking the workers as its a tool for the workers to use.
a tag that you only need to get past security may be forgotten, one that you need to get the job done...?
Aaron
May 6 2007, 09:20 PM
QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
hmm, could it be that the comlinks carried in the office is corp approved ones that one is handed when entering? or maybe ones that are locked down tight by the corp spiders, so that the functionality is limited? |
Nah. You just have agents and/or spiders crawling through everybody's commlink all the time. Kinda like having security cameras in the cube farm.
Bigity
May 7 2007, 05:53 PM
I don't know. You take this sterile idea too far and you end up with deckers sitting in the van again, and riggers tagging along only in drones.
hobgoblin
May 7 2007, 08:49 PM
it seems some people liked that version...
Spike
May 7 2007, 10:52 PM
QUOTE (Bigity) |
I don't know. You take this sterile idea too far and you end up with deckers sitting in the van again, and riggers tagging along only in drones. |
Well, first recall that the other technique is full out E-War ninjas.
Besides, the hacker still has a job to do, even sterile. He carries a commlink, but only turns it on when it's 'time'.
Or in a fight once the enemy E-War guy has given up on doing anything, where he does the monkey-wrencher. It's timing and job speceficity.
Riggers with drones are a problem, period. How you solve them is up to you, but there are few damn reasons why a Rigger should be anywhere near the party until the Fit hits the Shan, when he plays armored cavalry from the safety of wherever.
Any other use of the Rigger is strategically unsound metagaming. Nothing wrong with that, but recognize it is Metagaming to have the rigger walking along with everyone else as is...
Aaron
May 8 2007, 12:27 AM
QUOTE (Spike) |
Riggers with drones are a problem, period. How you solve them is up to you, but there are few damn reasons why a Rigger should be anywhere near the party until the Fit hits the Shan, when he plays armored cavalry from the safety of wherever.
Any other use of the Rigger is strategically unsound metagaming. Nothing wrong with that, but recognize it is Metagaming to have the rigger walking along with everyone else as is... |
You really think so? Even with all the wi-fi blocking wallpaper and paint? Not to mention that any security response team worth its paycheck carries an area jammer with them.
hobgoblin
May 8 2007, 01:05 AM
given that drone can work on its own, give it a standing order that when detecting a jammer, open fire in its direction. did someone say HARM?
2bit
May 8 2007, 01:10 AM
that's a bit of a knee-jerk response!
Aaron
May 8 2007, 02:10 AM
And one for the CLUE files.
I'd love to see what happens when the rigger uses that drone during a storm.
QUOTE (Spike) |
Riggers with drones are a problem, period. How you solve them is up to you, but there are few damn reasons why a Rigger should be anywhere near the party until the Fit hits the Shan, when he plays armored cavalry from the safety of wherever. |
Jammers.
You have to change the idiot rules in the book (To closer to reality) to make this work, but you jam every transmitter that isn't know to you and operating per normal profile.
This is similar to one of the options that you get with a COTS wireless management package, though they strongly encourage to think really long and hard about turning it on.
A transmitter running on a 425 KW diesel generator can totally drown a transmitter run on a wallet sized battery.
knasser
May 8 2007, 07:41 AM
QUOTE (Spike) |
Riggers with drones are a problem, period. How you solve them is up to you, but there are few damn reasons why a Rigger should be anywhere near the party until the Fit hits the Shan, when he plays armored cavalry from the safety of wherever.
Any other use of the Rigger is strategically unsound metagaming. Nothing wrong with that, but recognize it is Metagaming to have the rigger walking along with everyone else as is... |
Riggers are dead. Who plays a rigger? You have samurai with drones, you have hackers with drones, you have technomancers with drones, you have magicians with drones.
Okay, there are degrees - not everyone has a control rig thing, but basically I don't find many players want to create a character whose speciality is sitting in a van somewhere jacked into robots. It seems to me that the solution to your metagaming problem is for players not to create boring characters.
hey! sitting in a van controlling an army isn't boring!
Spike
May 8 2007, 03:39 PM
A 425kw diesel generator is a bit too big for the average security team to lug around. Hell, a 5kw generator takes two people (or one troll) to haul with any speed, and is awkward as hell in a firefight situation.
Now, my understanding of 'real life' Jammers (as opposed to game rules Jammers) is that they squash all communications by blanketing a range of frequencies with powerful signals, drowning out normal communications. The problem with area jamming is that it should effectively shut down your own communications and drone use just as it would your enemies. If you leave open frequencies that aren't being jammed, then your enemies can use those frequencies just as you can.
the only effective method to work within your own jamming is to leave small windows of unjammed time at random intervals. There is always a possibility that the other guy can use your windows, however... particularly in a heavily computerized world. The computer monitors the frequency and burst transmits every time the Jamming cuts out.
Even without a Rigger, the 'sterile' team can use drones. The drones stay out of the operation monitoring. If sent a signal, possibly a pre-arranged 'task list' from a set, they fly in and do their thing on pilot. If there is sudden jamming in the AO, the drones fly in on Pilot and hose anything that doesn't register as freindly (using face recognition software presumably), and could theoretically be programmed to respond to voice commands and hand signals from specific individuals. Not efficient, but harder to crack on the fly. Yes, voice prints can be mimicked, and with some ease, but how many security teams will be carrying the gear to do so? If the I/O for the drone is rigged for hardwired input only (thus the drone must respond to external events to trigger it's pilot program... ooh! finally a use for colored flares and smoke grenades!)
Of course, I've got some nasty wicked thoughts on how to run E-War teams as well....
QUOTE (Spike) |
Now, my understanding of 'real life' Jammers (as opposed to game rules Jammers) is that they squash all communications by blanketing a range of frequencies with powerful signals, drowning out normal communications. The problem with area jamming is that it should effectively shut down your own communications and drone use just as it would your enemies. If you leave open frequencies that aren't being jammed, then your enemies can use those frequencies just as you can.
the only effective method to work within your own jamming is to leave small windows of unjammed time at random intervals. There is always a possibility that the other guy can use your windows, however... particularly in a heavily computerized world. The computer monitors the frequency and burst transmits every time the Jamming cuts out. |
The 425Kw diesel generators is sitting in the building. It doesn't have to move. It's got a leaky coax antenna that is installed inside the buildings that can't move, and the huge RF transmitter that drives this is firmly attached to them both.
Barrage jamming is just one possibility. There are lots of other ways to use jammers effectively. They just require jammers that have very fast response and very accurate frequency tuning.
What you can do with a wireless network is to blow holes in the packet streams. Very little happens with just one packet, you normally need a series of packets to verify things like authentication and to recover from transmission errors. If you inflict a few bit errors on the packet it will be dumped and need to be resent.
The current approach for doing this kind of stuff is to send resets or disconnect messages at rogue devices. Just at them. You can essentially force them to sit and vibrate.
However, you could use the wireless infrastructure to actually jam transmissions by transmitting noise on top of any unknown or hostile transmitter only when it's transmitting. It's probably not allowed by FCC regulations these days (they kind of frown on jammers) but it's possible.
The higher the power of the transmitter the higher the power you need of the jammer, but you really don't need the 425 Kw one. If you are transmitting past the jammer it doesn't need a very strong signal at all to screw up you transmission because you just have to make the jamming signal stronger than the one the receiver will pick up without the jammer.
For example, while a cell tower often puts out a 100 watt signal, my cell phone with me is only seeing a -80Db signal. Assuming the phone does things as expected this means I'm I'm getting a signal of .00000001 watts. So it wouldn't be hard to jam this if someone wanted to. And if the jammer was is the same room with me I'd expect that someone at the end of the hall might be unaffected while my phone was totally useless.
Rotbart van Dainig
May 9 2007, 04:03 PM
Just look at the Wavebubble.
re: barrage jamming, you can actually do it and leave your own channels open. see, modern cryptography includes changing the radio frequency of your transmission several hundred times a second. this pattern of frequencies is called a hopset. all you have to do is program your jammer (assuming it's smart enough) with that hopset.
Cheops
May 9 2007, 04:59 PM
I think the 425 kW jammer was just thrown out there because most intruders are going to have comms at signal 5 or 8 or micro-transcievers at 6. If you put any ECCM on that then you need a REALLY strong jammer according to SR4 to actually cut their signal off.
I think all of this boils down to preferences in your GM's/Group's playstyle. I don't know about much of this technical stuff in RL (except what I learn here) so I just abide by the rules. I also don't have security constantly scanning for ALL hidden nodes in a building. Usually I just use the EW + Scan (4) test. That actually makes it pretty difficult for security to notice the signal and makes it more fun for my group.
i don't know the details about what you have to do in SR4 to scan for hidden nodes, but if you feel it's too easy (eg you can have an agent scanning every round until it finds something), simply increase the amount of time it takes. give it a base time of (10 - scanner's rating) minutes, or something.
Fix-it
May 10 2007, 02:15 AM
QUOTE (mfb) |
hey! sitting in a van controlling an army isn't boring! |
yeah. it's strategic. and if you get enough money and manipulate the rules the right way, it can be horrifying.
/air-deployed spider swarms, anyone?
silentmaster101
May 10 2007, 04:07 PM
a mage running extended mindnet off a sustaining focus doesnt have any problems with jammers.
hobgoblin
May 10 2007, 05:07 PM
ah yes, more power to the mages.
still, there are things known as spirits that are worse then jammers imo...
DireRadiant
May 10 2007, 06:12 PM
Mana static....
Dashifen
May 10 2007, 06:27 PM
Nah, just a Task spirit with an Electronic Warfare skill
hobgoblin
May 10 2007, 06:41 PM
oh ye gods, what a thought...
Fix-it
May 10 2007, 11:00 PM
is that allowable, under rules?
serious question.
Cheops
May 11 2007, 01:31 AM
Yes
Nocturne
May 11 2007, 12:41 PM
Er...
A task spirit with EW skill is fine and all, but how does that leap directly to magical eavesdropping? It doesn't. There are no rules to date concerning tapping into and subverting active spells of any sort, much less communication spells.
Dashifen
May 11 2007, 02:06 PM
Hence the
face. That being said, I don't see why a manifested task spirit with an EW skill couldn't use devices or other tools just as any other being would. In fact, I could see an very interesting free spirit NPC coming out of this idea
Demon_Bob
May 11 2007, 03:44 PM
QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
given that drone can work on its own, give it a standing order that when detecting a jammer, open fire in its direction. did someone say HARM? |
Sticky Grenade Launched Jammers
hobgoblin
May 11 2007, 04:28 PM
QUOTE (Demon_Bob) |
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ May 7 2007, 07:05 PM) | given that drone can work on its own, give it a standing order that when detecting a jammer, open fire in its direction. did someone say HARM? |
Sticky Grenade Launched Jammers |
the perfect mental chess game
Nocturne
May 11 2007, 04:58 PM
QUOTE (Dashifen) |
Hence the face. That being said, I don't see why a manifested task spirit with an EW skill couldn't use devices or other tools just as any other being would. In fact, I could see an very interesting free spirit NPC coming out of this idea |
Oh absolutely. I'm pretty sure spirits can't use VR, but short of that a Task Spirit with various computer and tech skills like that could be real handy.
hobgoblin
May 11 2007, 05:17 PM
QUOTE (Nocturne) |
QUOTE (Dashifen) | Hence the face. That being said, I don't see why a manifested task spirit with an EW skill couldn't use devices or other tools just as any other being would. In fact, I could see an very interesting free spirit NPC coming out of this idea |
Oh absolutely. I'm pretty sure spirits can't use VR, but short of that a Task Spirit with various computer and tech skills like that could be real handy.
|
hmm, is that the next step in the evolution of the hacker adept? the hacker summoner?
or does spirits assense all the time, and can therefor not read stuff like computer screens or books?
Rotbart van Dainig
May 11 2007, 05:40 PM
QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
or does spirits assense all the time, and can therefor not read stuff like computer screens or books? |
Spirits do have the Perception skill.
hobgoblin
May 11 2007, 06:00 PM
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ May 11 2007, 07:17 PM) | or does spirits assense all the time, and can therefor not read stuff like computer screens or books? |
Spirits do have the Perception skill.
|
so, thats only for spotting things. not for reading a computer interface...
Cheops
May 11 2007, 06:06 PM
According to the FAQ spirits and the like can interact with AR as long as it doesn't interact with a neural system. So they could use goggles to view AR and use gloves, keyboards, biofeedback clothing, etc to interact with it.
Since spirits usually have 2 IP in the physical this makes them as fast as a Cold VR user.
hobgoblin
May 11 2007, 06:09 PM
well, i guess i stand corrected
Therumancer
May 13 2007, 04:00 AM
Actually it's been my experience that most GMs will always contreive some reason why a Rigger can't sit in a van and control an army. Ditto for "risk free" Shadowrunning by Hackers and Technomancers who want to remain totally anonymous to everyone and do their thing via Satellite Uplink, perhaps from another continent (despite this being perfectly appropriate to the setting). You rarely see situations like in the novels... say in the first "Fanpro" Novel where it's a big deal that Kellen Colt is one of the few people Jackie Ozone ever trusted enough to see her in the flesh.
If you have a GM that lets you RP doing either of these things, you are very gifted. I mostly play mages, but half the time it seems the mages & muscle are dragging along some pencilneck computer expert who is a walking liability and helps guarantee most of the challenge for the adventure.
"Introvert Computer Geeks are Setting Appropriate, but not practical as player characters".
At any rate, the idea of "Wi Fi" and the whole "Wireless World"/"Augemented Reality" thing seems like it was contreived to try and make Hackers more practical for adventuring since they could manipulate devices on the fly and such, sort of like "Telemechanics" justified by speed-of-thought wireless hacking (or the real deal in the case of Technomancers).
On the other hand I for the life of me can't figure out why any PC would WANT to have Wi-Fi systems installed in his gun (for example) or a leather jacket that plays music or whatever. Nor can I see why a bunch of security goons would do the same thing other than to basically hang up a "hack into my gear please" sign.
It's an interesting concept, but needs some work. Perhaps I understand it wrong. I would just think anyone involved in aventuring (either as a PC or a target) would pretty much remove all their "Tags" and "Wi-Fi" (or have it done) as a matter of course. Such seems to just be common sense. But of course if you do that, your back at Square #1 with hackers/technomancers.
WearzManySkins
May 13 2007, 04:49 AM
QUOTE (Therumancer) |
Actually it's been my experience that most GMs will always contreive some reason why a Rigger can't sit in a van and control an army. Ditto for "risk free" Shadowrunning by Hackers and Technomancers who want to remain totally anonymous to everyone and do their thing via Satellite Uplink, perhaps from another continent (despite this being perfectly appropriate to the setting). You rarely see situations like in the novels... say in the first "Fanpro" Novel where it's a big deal that Kellen Colt is one of the few people Jackie Ozone ever trusted enough to see her in the flesh.
If you have a GM that lets you RP doing either of these things, you are very gifted. I mostly play mages, but half the time it seems the mages & muscle are dragging along some pencilneck computer expert who is a walking liability and helps guarantee most of the challenge for the adventure.
"Introvert Computer Geeks are Setting Appropriate, but not practical as player characters".
At any rate, the idea of "Wi Fi" and the whole "Wireless World"/"Augemented Reality" thing seems like it was contreived to try and make Hackers more practical for adventuring since they could manipulate devices on the fly and such, sort of like "Telemechanics" justified by speed-of-thought wireless hacking (or the real deal in the case of Technomancers).
On the other hand I for the life of me can't figure out why any PC would WANT to have Wi-Fi systems installed in his gun (for example) or a leather jacket that plays music or whatever. Nor can I see why a bunch of security goons would do the same thing other than to basically hang up a "hack into my gear please" sign.
It's an interesting concept, but needs some work. Perhaps I understand it wrong. I would just think anyone involved in aventuring (either as a PC or a target) would pretty much remove all their "Tags" and "Wi-Fi" (or have it done) as a matter of course. Such seems to just be common sense. But of course if you do that, your back at Square #1 with hackers/technomancers. |
Well I guess I will have to figure out a way to port the Brothers Cerebus to 4th ed.
They were triplet identical brothers, deckers and riggers to some degree. But at that time, they could deck as one entity. Meaning one brother had some skills good, the other skills the other brothers had at good skills. Kinda like a crew in a armored vehicle, they each had a part/place to play. Yes it was the design and play of three different players too. We had a particularly hard arsed GM, so the only way for us to get ahead was to plan things very carefully. But we all had lots of fun, especially when we surprised the GM, alot.
Yes most of the time they sat in a armored van, while the rest of the team meat bodied it.
Not all skills can be used/had by Thug Bunnies, so unless you wish your computer related actions to be done by npc's.
Yes I do agree that cyberwear for the most part does not need to be wireless. Most of my characters in 4th ed their cyberwear will be wired.
But again I am old school SR, started with 1st ed, play tested 2nd ed, and so on. I can see where for some types of play/character having everything on them wireless can be good.
But most of the GM's I played under played very hard. So we learned not to leave too many loop holes for the GM to drive a semi thru.
KarmaInferno
May 14 2007, 08:44 AM
QUOTE (Therumancer) |
Actually it's been my experience that most GMs will always contreive some reason why a Rigger can't sit in a van and control an army. Ditto for "risk free" Shadowrunning by Hackers and Technomancers who want to remain totally anonymous to everyone and do their thing via Satellite Uplink, perhaps from another continent (despite this being perfectly appropriate to the setting). You rarely see situations like in the novels... say in the first "Fanpro" Novel where it's a big deal that Kellen Colt is one of the few people Jackie Ozone ever trusted enough to see her in the flesh. |
I kinda forced the issue with my one rigger character.
He was paraplegic and on a respirator.
I did end up getting him an anthroform drone that he stayed jumped into much of the time. He even had it wear clothing, albeit bulky loose fitting stuff. With a hat it could probably pass for a troll in bad lighting.
A troll with flamethrower breath and LMGs that could sprout from it's chest and arms.
-karma
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