We'd have to devise a scenario in which a dragon is what? Ambushed by a military force, or ambushing a military force? In what scenario is a dragon surrounded by a deployed military force that he must face through combat - with no preparation?
Trid Phantasm (illusion of the dragon) + Shapechange, Quickened (a bird of some kind) + Chaotic World (+8 TN to everything including sensors, 260 meter radius) + Mob Mind (260 meter radius of populace attacking military force), with Quickened Deflect, Anchored Barriers, several Great Form Spirits using Concealment and Confusion maybe Storm Strike...
What's the dragon's objective? If it's just to destroy a city, like Aden, then I think he's got it covered.
Full Version: What do you think of dragons?
| QUOTE |
| By the same token, James Bond can beat the mundane, pre-magic US Armed Forces ca. 2006. |
I think the word you want it best, not beat, but, to a degree, I suppose it's possible if not likely.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| We'd have to devise a scenario in which a dragon is what? Ambushed by a military force, or ambushing a military force? |
I was thinking about a scenario where a brigade-sized or larger unit is operational (and all its C3 and heayv equipment has not been somehow neutralized) within some 10 miles of where the dragon goes berserk, or any situation in the airspace of a 1st world country where the military has 60-120 minutes in which to attack the dragon. A scenario such as would likely occur when a huge lizard decides to lay waste to a city.
A dragon "ambushing" a military force would be ridiculous, unless you mean something like a light infantry company without backup, and it would be monumentally stupid of the dragon to get itself into a situation where a serious military force can, or has any reason to ambush it.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| Trid Phantasm (illusion of the dragon) |
Assuming the GM runs Trid Phantasm as functioning against all sensors, the Object Rating as useless against Indirect Illusions, and the dragon can keep casting more and more of these to fool all of its potential attackers, this would allow it to at least hide itself from its attackers.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| Quickened (a bird of some kind) + Chaotic World (+8 TN to everything including sensors, 260 meter radius) + Mob Mind (260 meter radius of populace attacking military force) |
The dragon shouldn't be worrying about those opponents who need to get that close to it to do it harm. It should be worrying more about those that can pulverize it from 10 klicks away. Mob Mind can be useful for wrecking a city while keeping yourself safe, though.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| Quickened Deflect, Anchored Barriers |
You can't get these spells at high enough a Force to have a meaningful effect against the kind of weaponry the dragon should worry about.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| What's the dragon's objective? If it's just to destroy a city, like Aden, then I think he's got it covered. |
I agree: destroying a 3rd world shithole like that, especially with lots and lots of planning, shouldn't be that difficult a feat for a great dragon. The dragon itself probably wouldn't bother doing much damage directly, instead letting the citizens and his spirits do the dirty work. And, quite centrally, it would do this so that it would never be anywhere near any concentration of military force, nor stay around long enough for the military to come to it.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| I think the word you want it best, not beat, but, to a degree, I suppose it's possible if not likely. |
It's "beating" the army just as much as a dragon is "beating" the local military forces when it lays waste to a city like Aden -- by avoiding it entirely, disrupting those forces slightly where this would otherwise be difficult to manage.
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) | ||
You can't get these spells at high enough a Force to have a meaningful effect against the kind of weaponry the dragon should worry about. |
You can't? Really? It would cost an absurd amount of karma but I see no reason why you can't. Just pump your magic attribute up to 100 and get force 200 version of armor. It isn't impossible at all if you have the stats.
It would be even easier in SR4 since all spells have a variable force.
Drain would be a bitch if the caster actually takes drain and the learning TNs would be high in SR3 if the character actually has to deal with learning TNs. It can be argued that
great dragons suffer from neither. Even if they do, they can just bind a Free Spirit, pump it up to Force 100, and have it learn the spell. Free Spirits don't suffer from drain or spell learning tests, by canon.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Drain would be a bitch if the caster actually takes drain and the learning TNs would be high in SR3 if the character actually has to deal with learning TNs. It can be argued that great dragons suffer from neither. |
I don't have DotSW, but do they really have abilities which allow them to completely ignore drain and instantly learn any spell they want to at any force (or else how can this be argued)? And don't the statted great dragons hang closer to 20-40 for their Magic rating?
If the great dragon spends a lot of time and effort on getting there (ie. it is a focus area for the particular dragon), I can buy Force 36. But a Rating 36 barrier or 36 points of armor won't mean shit against 120D(AV) + 26 overdamage.
If Force 100 free spirits existed, great dragons would be the least of our worries. With effective Forces in the 150-200 range (Spirit Energy is much cheaper to raise than Force), they would be quite a bit tougher than any GDs or IEs.
| QUOTE |
| I don't have DotSW, but do they really have abilities which allow them to completely ignore drain and instantly learn any spell they want to at any force? |
It's implied in both Earthdawn and some places in SR that dragons don't "learn spells", they simply make mana do what they want. I usually just say Force 10, since it works well. For example, on Deflect, that's 10 dice for Dodge against a missile suffering +8 TNs from Chaotic World and +8 TNs from Spirit Confusion. Now, would the military really launch 120D AV weapons into a city? If that's their tactic, then the dragon doesn't have to do anything but cast Trid Phantasam and drop a few fireballs to get them started...
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| For example, on Deflect, that's 10 dice for Dodge against a missile suffering +8 TNs from Chaotic World and +8 TNs from Spirit Confusion. |
Confusion and Chaotic World require the spirits or the dragon to have LoS to the missile launchers and/or their spotters, which is only feasible if the dragon has sent a high force free spirit to do this to all potentially threatening aircraft, SAM batteries, ships, artillery missile launchers, radar arrays, etc. beforehand.
The missiles actually "ram" the target, they aren't normal attacks. They cannot be "dodged".
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| Now, would the military really launch 120D AV weapons into a city? |
Kinetic missiles, shaped charge warheads with safe self-destruction mechanisms, etc. Standard fare for a 1st world 2020+ military.
| QUOTE |
| The missiles actually "ram" the target, they aren't normal attacks. They cannot be "dodged". |
Really? Where are the rules for this? I was pretty sure SR let's you dodge a ram attack.
| QUOTE |
| Kinetic missiles, shaped charge warheads with safe self-destruction mechanisms, etc. Standard fare for a 1st world 2020+ military. |
I'm not sure I understand what this means. What triggers the self-destruction? What happens when the missile hits a wall, say mid-flight?
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| Really? Where are the rules for this? I was pretty sure SR let's you dodge a ram attack. |
R3.56, SR3.143. The rammer rolls a driving test (lots of dice vs. TN of 2 or so), which is not opposed by the target. A single success is enough to ram the target.
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
| I'm not sure I understand what this means. What triggers the self-destruction? What happens when the missile hits a wall, say mid-flight? |
If just about any missile hits an actual wall in flight, it won't be hitting its intended target, if that's what you mean. If a kinetic missile hits a wall, it goes right through, and the penetrator flies on -- unless the wall is thick enough (10 meters of armor steel should do the trick) to stop it. If a smart, explosive warhead missile hits a wall before getting to its intended target, it breaks apart, accompanied by a fireball from the rocket fuel.
| QUOTE |
| R3.56, SR3.143. The rammer rolls a driving test (lots of dice vs. TN of 2 or so), which is not opposed by the target. A single success is enough to ram the target. |
Wow. So, cop cars should just be ramming runners that try to escape. Dragons follow vehicle rules, too, so they should just ram the missiles first.
Not my fault that the ramming rules are screwed up. 
Going with the Silly Approach ™, it would be very difficult, although not impossible, for the dragon to ram the missile, assuming you let it use all the vehicle combat rules. The distance to the missile would have to be less than the dragon's acceleration rating, or the dragon would have to accelerate the full distance to the missile, while the rigger could make sure the missile begins its final initiative phase several hundred meters away. Ramming a kinetic missile would not be safe unless the dragon can score some 30 successes on the "driving" test, though.
You could solve the situation just by using a bit of common sense, of course, but that would still mean you aren't going to dodge a missile.
Going with the Silly Approach ™, it would be very difficult, although not impossible, for the dragon to ram the missile, assuming you let it use all the vehicle combat rules. The distance to the missile would have to be less than the dragon's acceleration rating, or the dragon would have to accelerate the full distance to the missile, while the rigger could make sure the missile begins its final initiative phase several hundred meters away. Ramming a kinetic missile would not be safe unless the dragon can score some 30 successes on the "driving" test, though.
You could solve the situation just by using a bit of common sense, of course, but that would still mean you aren't going to dodge a missile.
Yeah... Spirit Movement Power on the missile - didn't we discuss this before?
Quite possibly. Your name certainly appears on several of the past threads I checked for the naval combat rules.
WHo knows what a 'real' dragon's internal workings would look like if one showed up today? They might be a physical projection of astral will or something, so they might not HAVE any internal parts. So nuking it might have no effect whatsoever. Shooting it with a thousand missiles might not either. I think there's an assumption a dragon would be just a giant lizard, and one of those 'if its a lizard, it'll bleed, if it bleeds, we can kill it' things.
Hell maybe nukes would work, but you'd have to be willing to sacrifice a city along with it. Its one thing if its like independence day where they authorized nukes pretty much after all the cities got wasted anyway, than to auth a nuke over something like a populated New York.
Hell maybe nukes would work, but you'd have to be willing to sacrifice a city along with it. Its one thing if its like independence day where they authorized nukes pretty much after all the cities got wasted anyway, than to auth a nuke over something like a populated New York.
Dude, Ghostwalker is most definitely NOT a big lizard. He reconstituted himself from an astral form and nothing more. That would also explain their immense magical power, which dwarfs even their hulking physical forms.
Then again, they have nails and stuff, so it could go either way.
Then again, they have nails and stuff, so it could go either way.
I'm pretty sure that Ghostwalker went looking for the body he left lying around after he poped through the rift, but I could be wrong.
Either way, it proves nothing. Physical matter can exist on the Astral plane without any problems. There are plenty of example of this in both ED and SR canon. Some fluff in the ED Dragons pdf suggests that Dragons have the ability to Netherwalk at certain points in their lives, at the very least. They seem to shift their physical bodies to the Astral Plane dueing periods of metamorphisis such as the transformation from Wyvern to Adult and from Adult to Great.
Either way, it proves nothing. Physical matter can exist on the Astral plane without any problems. There are plenty of example of this in both ED and SR canon. Some fluff in the ED Dragons pdf suggests that Dragons have the ability to Netherwalk at certain points in their lives, at the very least. They seem to shift their physical bodies to the Astral Plane dueing periods of metamorphisis such as the transformation from Wyvern to Adult and from Adult to Great.
Like I said, there are some things that by cannon, you just dont mess with. Great dragons are one of those.
I don't mind people busting out God Mode for dragons in their games, but I should point out that that's definitely not how they're represented in canon, where a dragon can be killed with small arms fire.
When in canon has a dragon ever been killed by small arms fire?
They have iirc Hardened Armor, so small arms are useless aganst them.
They have iirc Hardened Armor, so small arms are useless aganst them.
10 rounds of MMG APDS vs. Western Dragon = resist 15D
Assault cannon AV round vs. Western Great = resist 10D/14D (depending on how you read the Body/Armor entries on pp. 268-269, SR3)
Assault cannon AV round vs. Western Great = resist 10D/14D (depending on how you read the Body/Armor entries on pp. 268-269, SR3)
Adult dragons in SR3 have hardened armor, yes, but they have an essence of 2D6. Minimum 2, maximum 12, and a 7/11 chance of being killable with a Predator.
8/11 Chance of being killable with a Warhawk.
I'd classify a 10mm pistol as a small arm.
Great Dragons have 12 essence as a base (before modifying it for the Named Greats) but are still killable with a sniper rifle.
In SR4 Adult Dragons have 8 points of hardened armor. That can be defeated with a Predator and either a couple of extra successes or EX-EX ammo. It is defeated by the Super Warhawk and one net success.
Great Dragons in SR4 are what screw this theory over. They have 20 points of Hardened armor. You could kill one with a sniper rifle and 10 net successes or 6 net successes if that rifle were loaded with Ex-Ex. 6 Net successes will also work with an Assualt Cannon.
Of course, these exist characters that could reasonably get 6 net successes on a ranged attack test against a generic GD. Heavily munched characters, but characters none-the-less.
8/11 Chance of being killable with a Warhawk.
I'd classify a 10mm pistol as a small arm.
Great Dragons have 12 essence as a base (before modifying it for the Named Greats) but are still killable with a sniper rifle.
In SR4 Adult Dragons have 8 points of hardened armor. That can be defeated with a Predator and either a couple of extra successes or EX-EX ammo. It is defeated by the Super Warhawk and one net success.
Great Dragons in SR4 are what screw this theory over. They have 20 points of Hardened armor. You could kill one with a sniper rifle and 10 net successes or 6 net successes if that rifle were loaded with Ex-Ex. 6 Net successes will also work with an Assualt Cannon.
Of course, these exist characters that could reasonably get 6 net successes on a ranged attack test against a generic GD. Heavily munched characters, but characters none-the-less.
Ah, I see. Thanks for explaining it.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Adult dragons in SR3 have hardened armor, yes, but they have an essence of 2D6. Minimum 2, maximum 12, and a 7/11 chance of being killable with a Predator. |
In SR3, a dragon's essence rating does not determine the rating of its armor, it's given in the statline. Non-great dragons have an armor rating of 8, and great dragons have either 12 or 20, depending on how you read the entries. Hardened Armor is "common" among dragons, but not all dragons have it. In addition, APDS and AV ammunition halve the effective rating of Hardened Armor.
| QUOTE (James McMurray) |
| A party of 20th level PCs (and even more so NPCs) is meat against a CR 27 creature. CR 27 creatures are made for ECL 27 characters, which do exist as part of the standard setting. I don't have my ELH with me, but IIRC Mordenkainen is somehwere between 25th and 35th level. |
incorrect, sir. a CR 27 creature is made for an encounter of moderate difficulty for a party of ECL 27 characters (MM3.5 pg7). in other words, a party of 27th-level characters can pretty much wipe the floor with a CR27 mob. for a party of 20th-level characters, a CR27 dragon is just about right for an end-of-campaign boss.
as far as Ghostwalker goes, keep in mind that he did not defeat the combined military forces of Denver. he didn't even defeat a single country's forces. he merely managed to accomplish his goals, unstopped by those forces. it's not like he rampaged through the city and fought until nobody was capable of fighting back; rather, he popped up, destroyed very specific targets, and then disappeared before popping up elsewhere and doing it again. it took him, all told, a week to do what he came to do. Denver was still very much capable of engaging Ghostwalker, and probably defeating him. they simply chose not to because of backroom deals.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| incorrect, sir. a CR 27 creature is made for an encounter of moderate difficulty for a party of ECL 27 characters (MM3.5 pg7). in other words, a party of 27th-level characters can pretty much wipe the floor with a CR27 mob. for a party of 20th-level characters, a CR27 dragon is just about right for an end-of-campaign boss. |
That's all nice in theory, however:
1. CR is - to be charitable - imprecise. (Personally, I consider it to be - especially since the advent of stuff like MM2 and MM3 - worse than useless, since it tends to give the average DM the illusion that they know what they're throwing at a party, whereas without it, they'd actually have to look at the stats and think about what they mean.)
2. Dragons (aside from juveniles) always broke the CR rules anyway - they're always much tougher than the CR indicates. (An ancient great wyrm red, for example, is a 20th level sorcerer. With (going from memory, here) its lowest save at more than +20, an AC of 40-something, and several hundred hitpoints)
3. At level 20 and above, CR (craptacular as it is to begin with) breaks down completely. Fights are often a matter not of overall character ability, but of whether a particular spell is prepared, or a special ability is had.
4. A CR "27" dragon, fighting intelligently, is going to wipe the floor with most 20th level parties. (unless they spent the campaign gathering dragonslaying artifacts, or have much higher than average stats, better gear, and/or are members of ECL+ races that give them unusual abilities or resistances.)
depends on the GM. regardless, the basic point is that SR is at best equal to D&D when it comes to unkillable big-name NPCs, and arguably leans more towards big-name NPCs being utterly unstoppable by any force lesser than another big-name NPC. and, like i said, it's been this way since early 2nd ed at the latest. if that doesn't suit your game, that's cool. but that's the default setting. Ghostwalker doesn't represent a recent jump in the 'power level' of GDs, he represents the logical abilities of the GDs as they have been presented pretty much all along.
heh. it's worth pointing out that the CR 27 dragon is gold--unlikely to to the whole rampaging thing. a red dragon, the highest evil or neutral dragon type, is CR 26. i have my doubts about a prepared 20th-level party being taken down by a CR 27 critter; a CR 26 critter, even moreso.
heh. it's worth pointing out that the CR 27 dragon is gold--unlikely to to the whole rampaging thing. a red dragon, the highest evil or neutral dragon type, is CR 26. i have my doubts about a prepared 20th-level party being taken down by a CR 27 critter; a CR 26 critter, even moreso.
That's untrue. The Feuerschwinge incident established Great Dragons as vulnerable to modern weaponry in straight-up combat. It is a recent development that their invulnerability is simply fact rather than the result of careful machination (yes, I do reject the idea of sufficient machination to maintain a position of no threat in a straight-up assault).
~J
~J
well, Ghostwalker wasn't invulnerable, either. he took several hits during the battle in Denver, and according to the text, they hurt pretty bad--the just didn't kill him. there are GDs, and then there are GDs. the GDs who showed up in SotF are all Ultimate NPCs, and are as capable in their various ways as Ghostwalker when it comes to taking over cities and the like. the other GDs--i imagine Feuerschwinge being among them--are as badass as the stats in the book say they are. which is to say, they have stats, and can therefore be killed.
I'll agree with mmu1's reply, since he said most of what I was going to say. In 3.5, dragon CRs are slightly better represented, but as with all CRs, the higher you go the wonkier things get. Have you ran an epic campaign? I have, and my group tends to power game. At 21st level they came across a CR 25 red dragon. It completely annhilated them. Had it been CR 27 there would have been no fight at all.
The CRs in the Epic Level Handbook still use the older "dragon CRs should be stupid" mindset, and so the dragons in there are designed to be a deadly encounter for parties of their level.
A CR 27 dragon (Gold Great Wyrm) has an AC of 42 without any buffs. A 20th level fighter type could have a to hit of +50 (20 BAB, 20 strength, 10 miscellaneous). Assuming you somehow catch the dragon so unprepared that his AC is actually 46 (base plus Mage Armor) then you'll hit with 4 attacks per round (including haste). If your base damage averages at 60 it'll take you three rounds to kill it, assuming it doesn't do anything at all to prevent that. It has SR 33, so a 20th level spellcaster with caster level 24 and greater spell penetration only has a 75% chance of bypassing the SR, after which you still have to contend with it's save bonuses and other magical protections from items and its 19th level sorcerer (with cleric spells) casting ability.
If you add the ELH to the mix the dragon just skyrocketed in power, or you've got the party fighting an advanced juvenile force dragon with the same 33 SR but a base AC of 50 (not including mage armor). It's also a dragon capable of creating walls of force and ignoring them itself.
Back on topic: dragons and IEs are killable. Heck, even the high end Horrors are killable. It's just a matter of how you're supposed to do it. The hardest part for killing a dragon would be getting yourself into a position to strike at it effectively in the first place. If it has stats, it can die.
The CRs in the Epic Level Handbook still use the older "dragon CRs should be stupid" mindset, and so the dragons in there are designed to be a deadly encounter for parties of their level.
A CR 27 dragon (Gold Great Wyrm) has an AC of 42 without any buffs. A 20th level fighter type could have a to hit of +50 (20 BAB, 20 strength, 10 miscellaneous). Assuming you somehow catch the dragon so unprepared that his AC is actually 46 (base plus Mage Armor) then you'll hit with 4 attacks per round (including haste). If your base damage averages at 60 it'll take you three rounds to kill it, assuming it doesn't do anything at all to prevent that. It has SR 33, so a 20th level spellcaster with caster level 24 and greater spell penetration only has a 75% chance of bypassing the SR, after which you still have to contend with it's save bonuses and other magical protections from items and its 19th level sorcerer (with cleric spells) casting ability.
If you add the ELH to the mix the dragon just skyrocketed in power, or you've got the party fighting an advanced juvenile force dragon with the same 33 SR but a base AC of 50 (not including mage armor). It's also a dragon capable of creating walls of force and ignoring them itself.
Back on topic: dragons and IEs are killable. Heck, even the high end Horrors are killable. It's just a matter of how you're supposed to do it. The hardest part for killing a dragon would be getting yourself into a position to strike at it effectively in the first place. If it has stats, it can die.
well, that's kinda my point. the named GDs--Lofwyr and the rest--are Ultimate NPCs. they don't have stats. as for D&D, i've never had a problem fighting critters 6-7 CR above my level, nor running such critters as DM, even at high level. *shrug*
Then they can't be killed unless the GM decides that his campaign would benefit from it, in which case they're toast before the fight even starts.
that is, indeed, my point.
| QUOTE (ShadowDragon8685) |
| There's nothing wrong with cutting a deal with a Dragon... Just be 200% CERTAIN you are ready, willing and able to throw your 120% behind said dragon's agenda, 'cause it has one, and furthering your agenda means you owe it the kind of favors you're gonna keep oweing for the rest of your life. |
..and this is why I have so many characters that are now "retired".
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) |
Wow. So, cop cars should just be ramming runners that try to escape. |
...just watch one of those "Wildest Police Videos" programmes. It is a standard tactic many departments use in RL to foil a getaway of stop a chase.
| QUOTE (mfb) |
| well, Ghostwalker wasn't invulnerable, either. he took several hits during the battle in Denver, and according to the text, they hurt pretty bad--the just didn't kill him. |
Replace "invincible" for "invulnerable", then.
| QUOTE |
| there are GDs, and then there are GDs. the GDs who showed up in SotF are all Ultimate NPCs, and are as capable in their various ways as Ghostwalker when it comes to taking over cities and the like. the other GDs--i imagine Feuerschwinge being among them--are as badass as the stats in the book say they are. which is to say, they have stats, and can therefore be killed. |
My copy of SotF is hiding—is Masaru on the list as an Ultimate?
If so, I argue that that indicates that all Greats are assumed to be at roughly that level. If not, I have no further argument at this time.
~J
Okay peoplealthough DotSW suggested tat the GDs shouldnotbe Statted
They were in the SR3 main book
the only things not statted are skills and iinitiate grades
Oh and if your PCs can't whack an ancient Red wyrm by lvl 20, then they donn't know OW to power game
They were in the SR3 main book
the only things not statted are skills and iinitiate grades
Oh and if your PCs can't whack an ancient Red wyrm by lvl 20, then they donn't know OW to power game
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) | ||
...just watch one of those "Wildest Police Videos" programmes. It is a standard tactic many departments use in RL to foil a getaway of stop a chase. |
I'm not questioning it as a tactic, I'm questioning the ability of the poilce drive to close on a rigger.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Replace "invincible" for "invulnerable", then. |
i'm not even really arguing that GW is/was invincible. i'm saying that the feats he performed in Denver are not beyond what GDs have previously been portrayed as being capable of. he didn't engage military forces for more than a few minutes at a time, and never engaged them when he didn't choose the battlefield. if a GD isn't capable of trashing a few military vehicles when he's got plenty of time to plan and prepare, what good is he?
Masaru was present, not sure if he's specifically mentioned as being Ultimate or not. regardless, there's a problem with assuming that all GDs are roughly the same level--namely, the fact that they're effectively given two stat blocks. one can be found in SR3 and Critters, where it shows GDs to be really, really tough, but statted. the other is in SRComp, where they're described as being Ultimate NPCs. the neatest way i can think of way to resolve this is to assume that some GDs are Ultimates and some aren't.
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| Okay peoplealthough DotSW suggested tat the GDs shouldnotbe Statted They were in the SR3 main book the only things not statted are skills and iinitiate grades Oh and if your PCs can't whack an ancient Red wyrm by lvl 20, then they donn't know OW to power game |
powergame? You mean use common sense, planning and equipment that will give you an edge right?
The odds are that a group of PC's will never have the chance to meet a GD, and fighting one in its own territory is almost certain death. (most parties should die on the way, let alone get in the main chamber) If you can lure one out to come after you then it is another story. A couple of pilots in panzers should be able to take out a dragon. dodging several missles, lines of autocannon shells will make the dragon run out of combat pool and karma pool quickly. The wing of panzers would have tactical computers working in sync, planning advanced manuevers that would suprise the dragon and quickly use their instincts against them.
| QUOTE (mfb) | ||
i'm not even really arguing that GW is/was invincible. i'm saying that the feats he performed in Denver are not beyond what GDs have previously been portrayed as being capable of. he didn't engage military forces for more than a few minutes at a time, and never engaged them when he didn't choose the battlefield. if a GD isn't capable of trashing a few military vehicles when he's got plenty of time to plan and prepare, what good is he? Masaru was present, not sure if he's specifically mentioned as being Ultimate or not. regardless, there's a problem with assuming that all GDs are roughly the same level--namely, the fact that they're effectively given two stat blocks. one can be found in SR3 and Critters, where it shows GDs to be really, really tough, but statted. the other is in SRComp, where they're described as being Ultimate NPCs. the neatest way i can think of way to resolve this is to assume that some GDs are Ultimates and some aren't. |
They are the ultimate till game designers decide to have passion avatars walking the planet. It is just a game of one-up-manship.
| QUOTE (Platinum) |
| They are the ultimate till game designers decide to have passion avatars walking the planet. It is just a game of one-up-manship. |
Threat ratings are relative to the PCs, not to the universe at large. One Ultimate NPC may be able to crush another Ultimate NPC like a bug, but as long as PCs don't have a hope of fighting the second NPC directly they're still Ultimate.
~J
Yeah, if the PC's are power level 100,000, it doesn't matter if their enemy's power level 1,000,000 or 1,500,000.
I dunno about Great Dragons, but regular ones are certainly killable.
Especially if they've drawn a fight out and already spent their dice pools liberally because the arrogant wyrm wanted to shock and awe the PCs.
Then the anti-tank weaponry comes out.
"Dragon, meet the Dragon ATGM. Five of them in fact."
=)
-karma
Especially if they've drawn a fight out and already spent their dice pools liberally because the arrogant wyrm wanted to shock and awe the PCs.
Then the anti-tank weaponry comes out.
"Dragon, meet the Dragon ATGM. Five of them in fact."
=)
-karma
GDATGMs are better than naval missiles, too. Unlike naval missiles, GDATGMs aren't attackable under Toturi-level canon rules and since Great Dragons aren't vehicles they can't break the lock.
~J
~J
Time to make anti-dragon bio weapons. Dragon-flesh eating disease, dragon-antrax, dragon-flu.
Dragon flu is Canon
| QUOTE (Kanada Ten) | ||||
I'm not questioning it as a tactic, I'm questioning the ability of the poilce drive to close on a rigger. |
...If the cops have riggers, (which they most certainly do in my sttings for High Threat Pursuit), the playing field becomes more even.
Riggers are expensive professionals. There are no cops, only Lone Star and its competitors—and while they will certainly have Riggers, it would make no sense to field them for anything that won't gain (or lose) them a great deal of money.
~J
~J
How do I feel about dragons?
#1--Approach with respect. A little common professional courtesy can do wonders.
#2--DO NOT get them mad, annoyed or even a little ticked off. They have a LONG memory.
#3--Deal with respect. When something is THAT much bigger, meaner, more powerful than you, respect is a given. Arrogance with get you litterally fried.
#4--Remember all the above.
#1--Approach with respect. A little common professional courtesy can do wonders.
#2--DO NOT get them mad, annoyed or even a little ticked off. They have a LONG memory.
#3--Deal with respect. When something is THAT much bigger, meaner, more powerful than you, respect is a given. Arrogance with get you litterally fried.
#4--Remember all the above.
| QUOTE (Kremlin KOA) |
| Oh and if your PCs can't whack an ancient Red wyrm by lvl 20, then they donn't know OW to power game |
Nah. It means that the GM also knows how to power game in a way that lets him challenge his players.
| QUOTE |
| Riggers are expensive professionals. There are no cops, only Lone Star and its competitors—and while they will certainly have Riggers, it would make no sense to field them for anything that won't gain (or lose) them a great deal of money. |
It also makes no sense to have people you're paying tons of cash to sitting behind a desk all day doing nothing.
Hazard pay. If they sit behind a desk all day, they're cheaper.
~J
~J
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