I recently re-read the endowment power that some great-forms get, and did a search on endowment-related topics. About 10 minutes later I returned to dumpshock and did a thread search for endowment-related posts. (bad joke, sorry )

So... I went through the powers list and tried to think up ways to use each of the powers that Guardian and Task spirits (the ones that get endowment) can get. I'm assuming that Endowing Ally spirits are impossible, and that you can't endow a skill even if it's granted as an optional power. Expect items marked with a * to be banned faster than a ban fired from a rubber band by a member of a thrash metal band.

• Astral Form: Who needs the guidance spirit's astral gateway power when you have this? *
• Animal Control: Depends on the animal. Probably not worth it.
• Binding: Can't think of any good uses.
• Concealment: Can already be used on a number of targets
• Dual Natured: A materialised creature becomes dual natured... This one is perhaps more likely to work than astral form, but still deserves a *.
• Elemental Attack: The characters are unlikely to have the necessary Exotic Ranged Weapon skill
• Endowment: Yeah, it's stupid and broken. Summon a great-form Guardian and a great-form plant spirit then get the great-form plant spirit to grant regeneration (!) to the entire team.
  
  Another idea is to give endowment to an inhabiting ally and get it to give inhabitation to other spirits, or simply give the Aura Masking power a flesh-form gets away like tasty candy. Inhabitation is notably superior to possession in a number of ways. It lets the spirit use VR, for one. *
• Enhanced Senses: An interesting option
• Fear: Only really useful if you're praying for an opponent to glitch.
• Guard: Generally Meh... Can already be used on a number of targets and was never a tier-1 power.
• Immunity to Normal Weapons: A materialised/possessing spirit gains this power... Muchos Armour for the whole team. I thnk this one might be worth a *, but I can see some DMs allow it, particularly given how low-force great-form spirits generally are.
• Influence: They're bound to botch eventually, otherwise this isn't really noteworthy.
• Magical Guard: That's a whole lot of guard going on there!
• Materialization: If granted to an astral mage, this could allow for some interesting options. * I think a less broken option would be to have a great-form materialisation spirit grant materialisation to a possession-tradition spirits, maybe even watchers?
• Movement: Nothing much to see here. It lets a lot of people move fast.
• Natural Weaponry: A bit poor, only becomes good if you have a really high force spirit doing it.
• Possession: Much silliness when given to a projecting mage. * As with materialisation, granting possession to materialisation spirits is still nice, but not as broken.
• Psychokinesis: Kinda useful if you have the party hidden under invisibility and behind cover. They can start picking up unused objects and battering opponents with them, maybe even drawing guns from downed individuals?
• Sapience: Might not mean too much given the limited mental attributes of some animals, but could make for fun RP and 'cute' scenes where animals work together to thwart their corporate oppressors.

Things get even more interesting with free spirits; they can endow metamagic techniques too.

Well, to be fair, Astral Form is essentially just being muted/overridden while a power like Materialization is being used. Astral Form is a passive ability that's always "on," while Materialization is the active ability that says "shut up, Astral Form, I'm taking over the show for a bit." Astral Form, of course, gets all huffy and stomps off in a show of dramaticism that would make a prairie dog jealous.

Anyway, I agree with you on all accounts. It's goofy to assume that Astral Form lets you get around a fundamental law of magic in the Sixth World, at least as easily as it does in this case, and the rules are very much lacking when it comes to such things.

In the end, the fault comes to two things: One, players and GMs simply not using common sense and two, whoever's responsible specifically chose to leave tons of loopholes in the game in favor of keeping things simple and rules-light (probably with the assumpation that players and GMs would, in fact, use common sense). Well, relatively rules-light anyway.

EDIT: Actually now that I thought about it, the real problem with this rule at least is that Astral Form shouldn't be a critter power. It's a characteristic, no different than listing their stats, astral initiative, or skills.

Yes, I'm pretty sure that we can all agree that the Astral Form power was a really bad idea and that a critter's nature could have been better established by simply adding a "type" (Astral, Physical, or Dual) category to the Critter stats and that we should just cover up our eyes, whenever we see the Astral Form power listed and simply pretend that it does not exist and that anyone who insists that this power is real will be punched in the face repeatedly and possibly set on fire.

Related Question:

Am I reading Endowment right? Does it let you effectively gain unlimited uses of a power in exchange for one sustained service with effectively no limit on how long you can have that power since it's a bound spirit? Also, are there rules for delivering a Touch-range spell (of which Endowment is) to a large group at once?

If you like a touch of nastiness in your games, you could have a free spirit broker a deal with a ghost, endow the ghost with the Inhabitation power and let it merge with a metahuman to "live again."

The fact that it says "only". Means, you exist in the astral plane, and in no other planes. I.E. you aren't around in the physical plane anymore.

A simple fix to this one, GM says "No more physical body, brain, etc? Dead. New character."

It is really fun to create an endowment chain, combined with some very useful Spirit Powers, and Personafix chips to create an army with some of the more devestating Great Form powers.

The very best way to break endowment is to make a deal with a spirit with the Karma Drain power and then go to a big rave or a sold-out rock-concert (maybe a sporting event). Hundreds, perhaps thousands, (tens of thousands if the band is very famous) of people high on various emotions, just waiting for their karma to be drained and you will the ability to take from everyone who is experiencing an emotional high in your line of sight. You'll probably be able to get several thousand karma in one shot.

Justification for the "dead" solution is this. Spirits don't need physical bodies to stay alive. Metahumans do. No body = you dead.

Frank, its very easy to read it that astral form is the base state of the creature with it, and materialization/possession override it. Physical plane is the base state for metahumans, but astral form would override that.

As far as your logic goes, if it can be interpreted out using one form (sentential) then it is a perfectly valid interpretation. As equally valid as the one you claim via directive.

You're arguing by utilizing logic, which is primarily concerned with the form of the argument. Your source says, "The reasoning process may be thought of as beginning with input (premises, data, etc.) and producing output (conclusions). In each specific case of drawing (inferring) a conclusion C from premises P1, P2, P3, ..., the details of the actual mental process (how the "gears" work) is not the proper concern of logic, but of psychology or neurophysiology. The proper concern of logic is whether the inference of C on the basis of P1, P2, P3, ... is warranted (correct)."

In this case, we have premiss 1
1)A being with the astral form power exists in the astral plane only.
The conclusion is:
C) A being who gains the astral form power will cease to exist in other planes.
This is valid logic, because if the premiss is true, the the conclusion is.

Logic only says that if the premises are true, then the conclusion is true (in deductive logic) or that the conclusion is likely to be true (in inductive logic).

Regardless, what the power states is "A critter with the Astral Form power exists in the astral plane only." We're arguing the meaning of the statement, not the logical validity of it, so, we'll go to dictionary.reference.com for the definition of the word only. "1. without others or anything further; alone; solely; exclusively." Exclusively. As in, on the astral plane, and not on any other planes.

The problem is that, when the rules and the fluff are taken as a whole, that statement is completely and totally insane.

Sure, you can argue that the intent of the Astral Form power means exactly what the text states. You can also drill a hole in your skull and suck your brains out with a vacuum cleaner. I would recommend neither.

The problem is that you can't assume that any given reader has enough background to take all of the rules and fluff as a whole.

If the only text you've ever read is the SR4 BBB, is it possible to be reasonable and draw the conclusion that Astral Form does, in fact, make you an exclusively astral being when applied?

Of course you can't assume that any given reader has enough background knowledge of SR to correctly interpret the intent of ambiguous and poorly worded rules. Which is why the whole Astral Form Power was a monumental blunder.

And yes, it could be reasonable for a reader who is ignorant to interpret the rule that way. However, this interpretation can only be reasonable if it is a result of ignorance. It is, therefore, completely invalid when made by people who are not ignorant, and completely incorrect in any event.

Considering that the only stuff that is canon is SR4, SM, and now Aug, its entirely valid to argue that in SR4, previous mechanics have changed, and that this power now does allow a being to go entirely astral (the harmful effects of doing so to said being are up to the GM. IF you're a magician, you're permanately projecting, and you'd better find a body before your time is up. If you can't project, well, your form dissipates immediately, and you die.

Fluff arguments for why this is possible, more magic has come into the world, allowing things previously though impossible.

Making that interpretation is about as reasonable as going up on stage during an elementary school production of The Nativity and sodomizing baby Jesus in front of an audience of several hundred parents, and it is about as legal, as well. The fact that the text of a rule or a law says one thing explicitly does not in any way imply that it actually means what it says.

This is why the judiciary exists, to apply laws. It is also why judges have to learn centuries worth of precedents so that they can correctly apply the law. GMs have less than two decades worth of material to learn. It isn't that great of a requirement in comparison.

Seconded, especially with the possible influx from the FPS Dumpshockers should be careful not to let newcomers get the wrong impression about the Sixth World only from looking at RAW .

Shadowrun and the Sixth World is so much more then RAW, and love or hate it you have to look at Fourth as building upon previous Editions, not as a standalone product.

No, it's either learn the two decades worth of material or be humble enough to understand that the people who have probably has a better understanding of the game then you do. (Note, that isn't the same thing as saying that they are always right.)

Let me remind you that for a standard of discussion to be present at dumpshock, we have to agree on a common ground, and that is RAW. What the rulebooks say, so as to have a basis for correct and incorrect discussions.

The rulebooks says it makes you exist only on the astral plane. Not physical. Period.

Whether you think this is good, bad, right or wrong, does not change the fact that it is RAW.

To give an example of why I think this argument is bogus, let's apply a little reduction to the absurd:

Claim: We should apply the body of previous edition rules and fluff to define the current edition rules, even in cases where the previous edition rules and fluff are contradicted by the current edition rules.

(I think this is a fair summary of the claim, yes?)

Claim taken to absurdity: "Well, in previous editions and fluff, hermetic mages were required to bind their spirits. So clearly that means that in SR4, hermetic mages are required to bind their spirits in SR4, despite the rules saying otherwise."

(Which is really pretty close to the claim, "Well, in previous editions and fluff, all the documents say this Astral Form stuff couldn't happen, so clearly, this astral form stuff is bullshit.")

Fact is, the rules are the rules. You may disagree with them, you may think they fly in the face of all Shadowrun precedent, and you are free to house rule them all you want. But never forget that where you deviate from the rules as written, what you are doing is creating house rules.

And I don't have a problem with that. It's pretending otherwise that I have a problem with.

I think a couple of you are confusing some concepts here.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that as written, the rules of Astral Form are fragged up when combined with Endowment. It's silly that Astral Form is a critter power at all, and a huge loophole was created as a result. It's hardly the only such loophole in the game due to not spending quite enough time thinking things through, but that's neither here nor there.

Or in other words, it's been acknowledged by just about everyone -- even FrankTrollman -- that the rules as written are goobed up.

That said, this is a discussion forum. Now that a problem has been identified, various individuals are offering up theoretic offerings about what else it could mean, how it can be solved, and even offering house rules based upon not only their own deductions but evidence found in previous editions that have not yet been officially overwritten (but are still not a part of SR4, either). Simpy because the new designers and developers chose to not include something from a past edition, that doesn't mean the "fluff" text or even the ideas behind the rules are now dismissed. Especially on the more philosophical level, such as the laws and limitations of magic in the Sixth World. And that's the entire point of these forums; to discuss the game as a whole.

Summary: Yes, it's stupid that Astral Form is a critter power. Yes, it's stupid that Endowment can endow someone with it. Yes, they officially work just fine together. Yes, endowing Astral Form on someone will make them "astral only." Yes, SR4 has it's own set of rules. Yes, past editions have addressed some of these topics. No, that doesn't mean people can't discuss any or all of these topics at once. No, house rules are not official. No, no one is claming that they are.

Somebody really ought to teach these game developers to make a relational graph that they consult when making rules.

Most of the really obnoxious things I've seen are the result of recursion and looping, which could probably be avoided if they used such graphs.

Oh, that's good. Because canon has cases where people were shifted completly to the astral... the most notable involved a clown with pointy ears, though.

Endowing Desire Reflection is a great way for shadowrunners without a face to operate in a pinch.

..makes one kind of thankful that the Glamour Power doesn't exist anymore. As a player, that is.

Frank, please show me where priorities are defined in the rulebook.

As far as I'm concerned, since astral form is a passive power, it is always on, as per passive powers. Materialization (please point me to another rule that allows anything with astral form to exist on the physical plane) is an active power. When something with an astral from power turns on its materialization power and materializes, you have a rules contradiction. Astral form says they are astral only. Materialization says they are on the physical. Your two choices for interpretation are that astral form supercedes materialization, and they can't materialize ever (in which case, why have the materialization power?) or, materialization supercedes astral form, in which case, as long as materialization is in use, you can exist on both, once it isn't, the being reverts to being astral only, as per its passive (and always "on") astral form power.