Full Version: Endowment Ideas
| QUOTE |
| Frank, please show me where priorities are defined in the rulebook. |
They aren't defined. Which leaves us two options:
- You believe that Astral Form supercedes being on the Physical Plane. Endowment hurls you through the void, spirits can't materialize, and you're a fucking idiot.
. - You believe that Astral Form does not supercede being on the Physical Plabe. Materialization works as described, Endowment doesn't shift you off the physical, and all is right with the world.
Got that? The spirit that is providing the Endowment is doing it while he is on the Physical Plane, and he has the Astral Form power himself the entire fucking time!
If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander. An interpretation that involves having an Endowment of Astral Form shift people off the physical plane also necessarily involves such an Endowment being impossible because the spirit in question would itself be shifted off the Physical plane before it could even attempt such a feat.
Stop being obtuse: this really isn't very complicated. The ability isn't terribly well written because it uses a series of absolutist language even though it actually doesn't supercede... anything. Nor is it intended to. It's just a rewrite of the old nomenclature where astral critters got a little "z" appended to their Essence number which people missed constantly.
But no. There's not a single blessed reason to believe that Astral Form actually changes your current location. It's not a movement power, it's a state definition power. If you have it and are in some other location (metaplanes, astral plane, matrix), or move to such a location, the power doesn't do shit to you.
---
And I'm sorry for being rude, but holy shit what the fuck are you smoking?
-Frank
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| Endowing Desire Reflection is a great way for shadowrunners without a face to operate in a pinch. |
How so? All it does is create an illusion to distract someone, with distractions being easy to come by through many other means. I don't see how it replaces a Face at all, who's primary function is to use Social Skills. Am I missing something?
| QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jul 29 2007, 09:46 AM) |
| They aren't defined. Which leaves us two options: |
No, that leaves us with one:
Materialisation and Possession are exceptions to Astral Form, as defined.
Materialisation is a special case of being on the physical Plane, and it's properties certainly don't extend to any other way of being on the physical plane. Assuming otherwise is a reverse.
The problem is that Astral Form is not a power. It is listed under powers, but it most certainly is not a power. It would be more appropriate to list it as a Quality, but since there are no Critter specific Qualities (despite the fact that critters can have qualities) it was instead listed as a power. It was just a little bit of corner-cutting in the name of streamlined rules. It doesn't take a genius to see this, it doesn't even take inside knowledge. This is obvious ex facie.
The fact is that Astral Form is not in any way treated like a Power other than being erroneously listed as one.
The fact is that Astral Form is not in any way treated like a Power other than being erroneously listed as one.
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) | ||
No, that leaves us with one: Materialisation and Possession are exceptions to Astral Form, as defined. Materialisation is a special case of being on the physical Plane, and it's properties certainly don't extend to any other way of being on the physical plane. Assuming otherwise is a reverse. |
It's only defined if you create a priority order that the power of materialization overrides the power of astral form. If both are powers, you cannot even invoke 'specific overrides the general' because they are both equally specific. Both are continuous effects while in operation. Huzzah.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jul 29 2007, 09:04 AM) |
| The problem is that Astral Form is not a power. |
I think the problem with this entire argument comes from the two viewpoints.
Both sides acknowledge that Astral Form shouldn't be a power, but a quality or trait applied to specific critters and spirits. Pretty simple and straight forward.
The problem comes from the fact that one side of the argument is simply trying to come up with in-game/in-character/metagame rationalizations for why it shouldn't be treated as a power but instead as the quality or trait it obvious should have been.
The other side, however, is clinging to the "it's RAW" for it's sole argument. "It says ONLY" and all that razzmatazz. Very few if any arguments arise for why it should be a power, merely that it is a power by the books and thus should be raped and abused in all its glory.
Nothing wrong with either side's point of view. It's just that they're not comparable in any fashion, thus not providing any real argument that genuinely counters the other side except on the surface.
| QUOTE (Cthulhudreams) |
| It's only defined if you create a priority order that the power of materialization overrides the power of astral form. |
Which it's description does...
No, the description for Materialization provides nothing along the lines of "when this power is active, the Astral Form power is neutralized."
It just says they're capable of projecting themselves into the material world. But by your interpretation of how Astral Form works and a complete and total absence of any of the priority ideas Frank first mentioned within the rules, any spirit with both Astral Form and Materialization would keep getting shunt back and forth instantaneously when they're both active. One of which always is.
Astral Form says they can NOT affect the material world. Materialization says they can. Which has priority? And how can one have a priority over the other if, as you were implying earlier, there are no priorities of powers in the game?
It just says they're capable of projecting themselves into the material world. But by your interpretation of how Astral Form works and a complete and total absence of any of the priority ideas Frank first mentioned within the rules, any spirit with both Astral Form and Materialization would keep getting shunt back and forth instantaneously when they're both active. One of which always is.
Astral Form says they can NOT affect the material world. Materialization says they can. Which has priority? And how can one have a priority over the other if, as you were implying earlier, there are no priorities of powers in the game?
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein @ Jul 30 2007, 06:31 PM) |
| Astral Form says they can NOT affect the material world. Materialization says they can. Which has priority? And how can one have a priority over the other if, as you were implying earlier, there are no priorities of powers in the game? |
Materialization is an exception, directly refering to astral only presence and overruling it in description.
That does not imply a general need for priorities, nor that physical presence has a priority over astral - that's what I pointed out.
The only thing you could deduct from the presence of the Astral Form Power is that physical presence is the norm, and Astral Form is an Exception to it... thus, if spirits would not have the Astral Form power, they would be normal physical entities like everyone else.
If you really want to deduct priorities from all those spirit stuff, it is:
Phsical presence < Astral Form < Materialization/Possession < Inhabitation
| QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
| Materialization is an exception, directly refering to astral only presence and overruling it in description. |
You should read the description again. The word "astral" never even comes up. Remember, you're one of the people who wanted to be pedantic about the wording of the rules. Can't have your cake and eat it, too.
| QUOTE |
| That does not imply a general need for priorities, nor that physical presence has a priority over astral - that's what I pointed out. |
It's what you claimed, not pointed out. Astral Form and Materialization being available to the same critter is a clear and unquestionable demonstration of priorities taking place within the rules.
| QUOTE |
| If you really want to deduct priorities from all those spirit stuff, it is: Phsical presence < Astral Form < Materialization/Possession < Inhabitation |
Uhm, no. It's Astral Form < Materiliazation/Possesion = Inhabitation < Physical Normality. The first three can all be overridden by standard abilities. The last one cannot (even Astral Projection only takes part of you into the Astral).
If you do deduce priorities, it's that Physical is superior to all. Those who are Physical neither need nor require a power to be Physical, nor can that state of being be removed by anything canonical (including Astral Form which says no such thing and is completely rendered null and void by multiple other powers, showing just how weak it is). It's the normal state of being in the multiuniverse. Thus the deduction is that Astral Form is a very weak power that's ignored the moment anything comes close to overriding it, which would include not only the Materialization power but the non-power of just being a normal Physical entity.
Thus a Physical character with Astral Form has no change of state anymore than a creature with Astral Form is instantly shunted back to the astral when they use Materialization. If you are a Physical character with Astral Form, you will only become astral if your ability to be Physical is rendered nil, such as having Materialization deactivated. And since being Physical by default is not a power, there's no way to render it null.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| You should read the description again. The word "astral" never even comes up. |
It does:
| QUOTE |
| Certain astral critters are capable of projecting themselves into the material world,[...] |
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Astral Form and Materialization being available to the same critter is a clear and unquestionable demonstration of priorities taking place within the rules. |
Or that those rules each have exeptions, thus creating a chain resulting in priorities...
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| It's Astral Form < Materiliazation/Possesion = Inhabitation < Physical Normality. The first three can all be overridden by standard abilities. |
No.
Until declared otherwise, everything is there physical only. First, and lowest priority.
Then comes Astral Form, which changes that to astral only.
Then comes Materialization/Posession, that require the critter to be astral.
Of course, technically, Inhabitation is ruled as the third possibility, but as it has a fallback to Materialization, it is 'better'.
That translates into:
Physical presence < Astral Form < Materialization/Possession < Inhabitation
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| The last one cannot |
Show me a rule that says so.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| If you do deduce priorities, it's that Physical is superior to all. |
No. It's the assumed, unwritten baseline. Every rule after that superseeds it, no matter whether you call it 'exception' or 'priority'
Semantics aside, there is one very compelling reason to assume shifting to the astral plane this way is impossible. Because it is broken. Because it is so broken that if you do it then the gaming police will raid your home and arrest you!!!
But they won't take you back to the gaming police station, no. The gaming lynch mob will be waiting for the gaming sheriff on a bridge. And the gaming sheriff will stop on that bridge, drag you out of his car, and together he and the gaming lynch mob will help you steal more chains than you can swim with. And when your bloating, decomposing body washes up on shore the corrupt gaming coroner will report just that, you accidentally drowned trying to swim while wrapped head to toe in stolen chains and padlocks, which made it impossible for you to move your arms and legs. A pretty silly way to die, it is, but one would be amazed at how many chain thieves attempt aquatic escapes.
But they won't take you back to the gaming police station, no. The gaming lynch mob will be waiting for the gaming sheriff on a bridge. And the gaming sheriff will stop on that bridge, drag you out of his car, and together he and the gaming lynch mob will help you steal more chains than you can swim with. And when your bloating, decomposing body washes up on shore the corrupt gaming coroner will report just that, you accidentally drowned trying to swim while wrapped head to toe in stolen chains and padlocks, which made it impossible for you to move your arms and legs. A pretty silly way to die, it is, but one would be amazed at how many chain thieves attempt aquatic escapes.
What happened to good old burning at the stake?
Stake burning lacks plausible deniability. Besides, chain stealing has a very Southern flavor to it.
Nah. It's perfectly plausibe that someone build a bonfire and tried to light it from the top: That's how you light candles, silly.
I think another interpretation here is that being Endowed with the Astral Form power causes you to immediately and permanently enter Astral Projection until such time as the Endowment ends.
Same way that the weird Mana areas can suck you into Astral Projection.
While you have the Astral Form power, you exist on the Astral only. Doesn't mean you physical body disappears, it just means that you're no longer in it, and you're not connected to it. It's just a sack of meat.
Same way that the weird Mana areas can suck you into Astral Projection.
While you have the Astral Form power, you exist on the Astral only. Doesn't mean you physical body disappears, it just means that you're no longer in it, and you're not connected to it. It's just a sack of meat.
Seriously, one of you wrote the rule and the rest of you didn't.
It has also been expressly stated in the books and by those who wrote them that there is no teleporting in SR.
It has also been expressly stated in the books and by those who wrote them that there is no teleporting in SR.
| QUOTE (GWCarver) |
| Seriously, one of you wrote the rule and the rest of you didn't. |
He wrote the rules on Posession, too. That did not keep us from abusing them, either...
| QUOTE (GWCarver) |
| It has also been expressly stated in the books and by those who wrote them that there is no teleporting in SR. |
As Spirits don't teleport, everything is fine then.
| QUOTE (GWCarver) |
| Seriously, one of you wrote the rule and the rest of you didn't. It has also been expressly stated in the books and by those who wrote them that there is no teleporting in SR. |
The thing is, I wrote the Endowment, not the Astral Form.
So what I'm giving back is the internal consensus as to what Astral Form means - not my particular view on a power that I wrote. I became involves after the SR4 mainbook was printed.
So while I do know first hand how it's supposed to work when you Endow someone with Astral Form, my information about Astral Form is only second hand. Just wanted to get that out there.
-Frank
| QUOTE (GWCarver) |
| It has also been expressly stated in the books and by those who wrote them that there is no teleporting in SR. |
Perhaps no teleportation, but there is precedence for objects/characters moving fully to the astral plane:
[ Spoiler ]
Also, I'd like to add another request to keep a lid on things with no swear words. Things like that tend to lead Mods to knee-jerk thread closure, which doesn't really help anyone.
| QUOTE (Lilt) |
| Also, I'd like to add another request to keep a lid on things with no swear words. Things like that tend to lead Mods to knee-jerk thread closure, which doesn't really help anyone. |
Admin clarification post: Expletives are only prohibited from appearing in a topic title or subtitle, and we prefer that posts not be entirely comprised of nothing but if people can help it. Thread closures are only undertaken after discussion between at least two moderators, usually more, except in drastic circumstances.
| QUOTE (Lilt) |
| Also, I'd like to add another request to keep a lid on things with no swear words. |
This has been a damn civil discussion for Dumpshock.
| QUOTE (GWCarver) |
| Seriously, one of you wrote the rule and the rest of you didn't. |
Heh, if you're referring to Astral Form, I think what you meant to say was,
"Seriously, one of you screwed the pooch, and the rest of you are arguing about it."
The way I see it is like so...
Spirits are astral first creatures. People / most animals are physical first. (we'll ignore dual natured for now).
Astral form for spirits is like Physical First is for humans / most animals. That is their default state.
Spirits are astral and can materialize.
Mages are physical and can project.
Hmm... Spirits: Astral -> Physical
Hmm... Meat: Physical -> Astral
Sounds like grounds for a state of being rather than a power per se. Regardless how you want to classify it, one side is missing some clarification.
How would I rule it? You become dual natured. You are physical. You got endowed with Astral Form. You don't lose your physical form. That's part of **YOUR** Pattern. It insteads adds an active astral component to your already defined Pattern. You (for the duration of the endowment) have a Physical Aspect and an Astral Aspect. Sounds a lot like dual natured to me.
Think about it. A spirit is Astral until it Materializes (takes on a second state of existance). At which time, it's dual natured (iirc).
Now could Astral Form keep you alive should your body get hijacked or otherwise disposed of / destroyed? I'd say yes due to how it works for everything else that has the Astral Form power. This would make it very handy for a mage who is out projecting only to find out his body was killed / destroyed / hijacked (and couldn't get back into it before his time was up). His old state of being had certain things that would cause his death but his second state of being has rules that ignore those reasons for death.
Yeah, it's house rule. But it makes the most sense to me. Astral Form sets a default state. But if you already have one, then it appends to it without overwriting it.
A spirit with Astral Form who uses Materialization isn't being shunted to the Physical Plane, it's adding a physical component to it's Astral Form. Adding Astral Form (an astral component) to a person / critter / object doesn't shunt them away to the Astral Plane any more than adding a Physical component to a spirit does to the Physical.
Spirits are astral first creatures. People / most animals are physical first. (we'll ignore dual natured for now).
Astral form for spirits is like Physical First is for humans / most animals. That is their default state.
Spirits are astral and can materialize.
Mages are physical and can project.
Hmm... Spirits: Astral -> Physical
Hmm... Meat: Physical -> Astral
Sounds like grounds for a state of being rather than a power per se. Regardless how you want to classify it, one side is missing some clarification.
How would I rule it? You become dual natured. You are physical. You got endowed with Astral Form. You don't lose your physical form. That's part of **YOUR** Pattern. It insteads adds an active astral component to your already defined Pattern. You (for the duration of the endowment) have a Physical Aspect and an Astral Aspect. Sounds a lot like dual natured to me.
Think about it. A spirit is Astral until it Materializes (takes on a second state of existance). At which time, it's dual natured (iirc).
Now could Astral Form keep you alive should your body get hijacked or otherwise disposed of / destroyed? I'd say yes due to how it works for everything else that has the Astral Form power. This would make it very handy for a mage who is out projecting only to find out his body was killed / destroyed / hijacked (and couldn't get back into it before his time was up). His old state of being had certain things that would cause his death but his second state of being has rules that ignore those reasons for death.
Yeah, it's house rule. But it makes the most sense to me. Astral Form sets a default state. But if you already have one, then it appends to it without overwriting it.
A spirit with Astral Form who uses Materialization isn't being shunted to the Physical Plane, it's adding a physical component to it's Astral Form. Adding Astral Form (an astral component) to a person / critter / object doesn't shunt them away to the Astral Plane any more than adding a Physical component to a spirit does to the Physical.
| QUOTE |
| Astral Form Type: M - Action: Auto - Range: Self - Duration: Always A critter with the Astral Form power exists in the astral plane only. It cannot be damaged by physical attacks or physical spells; only astral attacks or mana spells may hurt an astral critter. Likewise, an astral critter cannot affect other creatures in the material world, only dual-natured creatures or astrally perceiving characters. Critters with this power may manifest on the physical plane in the same way as astrally projecting magicians can (see p. 182). |
The way I see it you:
1) Try to apply RAW 100%.
When endowed with this power you now exist 100% on the astral, you soul/psyche/essence is ripped from your body (which most likely dies, without alot of medical help) and you now are a astral spirit. (with the mage's manifestation power (not materialize).
Player Abuse limited, though some GM creativeness could be allowed. ('Villians' could still use it to escape near certain death, and then later find a way to posses/inhabit people, OR (cackle evily) find a way to BECOME a free spirit.... (imagine tracking down that nasty vampire mage and finally burning him to a crisp ... only to have him come back as a free spirit and pissed...)
As the rules as written state you exist ONLY in the astral all ties to the body are remove. Once the power is over (if ever), you do NOT automatically somehow gain a body (or reconnect to a body) .... If you havent found a way to posses/inhabit/etc you have serious issues.
(straight as writtten)
2) Intent:
Change the first line to:
'A critter with the Astral Form power canexists in the astral plane only'
Now you are comfortable in the astral are a 'native' and dont have to worry about essence loss, etc... BUT it doesnt necessarily also preclude the loss of your physical body.
If players were wanting something closer to #2 I would have no problem and work with the to have it allow what they wanted.
If players for some reason were going for the 'no physical presence' uberness.... well they are going to be very surprised when the power wears off
I think a good rule of thumb would be to use the restrictions built into the Spirit Pact Quality, in which it specifically bars the transfer of Astral Form, as well as Materialization, Possession, and Inhabitation.
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