Just did another:
http://raben-aas.deviantart.com/art/Shadow...Troll-113208144

I like these last few by you, raben-aas. Thanks. The last one reminds me of an instructor I had in karate. She was very solid and grounded, and was -very- impressive in sparring. She often wore a t-shirt that said, "I fight like a girl."

Bathe her and bring her to BlueMax.

Two more:

http://rabenwelten.files.wordpress.com/200...r_ftroll041.jpg
http://rabenwelten.files.wordpress.com/200...sr_ftroll03.jpg

Very nice!

very nice proportions (arms/legs/torso). from the descriptions in runner's companion, i'd say they're most like the fomori since they don't have the obvious dermal deposits.

Really? what about the first one's left arm?

Also, Raben-aas A+ work.

^^^^^^^aas^^^^^^

Thx Peter

(Raben-Aas literally means a piece of carrion left for the ravens. It's a German word roughly having the same meaning as "scoundrel". And to provide extra trivia: My initials are A.S., which – in German – reads as "Ace". I thought this would sound a little arrogant, so I put in the initial of my second name (Alexander) so it spelled A.A.S. (carrion). As AAS is already blocked as a login/name in most forums and there are not many german words containing "aas", my choices boilt down to either Raben-Aas or Aaskriecher (Carrion Crawler). Since any German not familiar with DnD would have a hard time guessing what an Aaskriecher might be (and the word is very close to Arschkriecher ("brown noser")) I picked Raben-Aas. Raben-AAS, mind you, not "Raven's Ass").

Please accept my sincerest apologies for the typo.

lol, i guess if you did a called shot to the right arm (i'm assuming that's the one you mean instead of left) the troll might get the +1 for damage tests but not elsewhere on the body. i like the work, i just think that she needs more bony spicules elsewhere on the body to be a standard troll.

I have to say, Rabin's trolls are by far the best as far as I can see. They look reasonable, especially considering the size involved. Remember, bigger creatures need to be thicker... the largest human ever was 8'11", and he required braces just to stand. He looked like a scaled up human of course. So if trolls really average at 9'2", they're going to need to be much thicker just to be able to walk.

One thing I was thinking though... orcs are born in litters, right? That means they'd probably need to produce a lot more milk, so I'd expect orc girls to be a lot chestier, most of the time. The same might be said of trolls just because of the size of the baby they'd be taking care of.

JaronK

The dermal deposit discussion assumes that dermal deposits have to be above the skin. They could be spread out, flattish, underneath the skin and thereby actually provide protection more than a few spikes would.

*****

As an interesting tangent, did you know that homo sapiens is one of the few mammals, and I think the only primate, to not have a bone in the penis? The accepted opinion is that proto-mammals had the bone, and it was kept by most species while humans lost the bone at some point through their evolution.

The obvious advantage to having a bone is that it facilitates copulation under 'less than ideal' conditions. One wonders what evolutionary advantage came along with losing the bone, since if there were no advantage, it would have been unlikely that 'no-boners' would have replaced 'boners'.

Coming back to the dermal deposit issue, I wonder if such deposits would also manifest in the recurrence of this lost phenotype.

true about the dermal deposits, although 20 years of official SR art tends to show them above the skin. as for the other question, we obviously gained the ability to wear tight pants. think of how boring the 70's and 80's would have been without the wardrobe of all those rock bands, not to mention the devastation it would cause to the gay community.

We could have kept codpieces from the 1500s.

Actually, 20 years of official SR art show a lot of stuff that was called "unrealistic" and "not like a troll/orc/elf/grinch really™ looks" here and in other threads.

That side note aside, even the art that portrays trolls "in the right way" show SOME deposits to be above the skin (otherwise trolls would look like giant crabs). In all troll art, you see actually more flesh (= supposed deposits under skin) than horns and stuff (= deposits above the skin).

While I totalle agree that the male troll pix I like best have MORE deposits above the skin than the female trolls I did (errrh... doodled) I think they have an okay share of deposits above the skin.

Also, please be reminded that the task was to do a pic of an ATTRACTIVE female troll. If you want to know what an "average" (or sub-average) looking female troll looks like, follow this method:

(1) Take picture of male troll
(2) Remove beard
(3) Add breasts

And you're done.

As an additional note, I think what male trolls like best about their "big girls" is that they are tough and not total whimps. Male trolls might still find pix of human girls attractive and switch their AR to playboy channel when in the bathroom a lot, but actually having sex with a norm girl will be out of the question, most of the time ("Watch your tusks", "Ow that hurt", "Don't give me any bruises", "Your horn ripped my incredibly expensive jeans", "Oh no, now I broke my nail", "You are too heavy, get off me", "Ow, you big lark, watch it", "Ouch", "No, honey, not today, my arm still is in a cask, see?").

With female trolls, you can "really go wild", let yourself go, not worry about hurting anyone (if you do, she will punch your jawbone off your face). That makes for A LOT of sexual attraction.

Also:
Horns: Power-Steering for Oral Sex

Suddenly, I am filled with images from Star Trek Deep Space 9. Where Worf and Dax go at each other. She would come back broken to pieces but Bashir would just fix her up.

Thankfully, in Fourth Edition, every group I roll with has a guy who can head 5 boxes with first aid (if he rolls well). I am still going after the lovely troll ladies.

Continued apologies with regard to the typo.

BlueMax
/Drek, now I want to play a gene freak
// Bashir, a doctor
/// why do I play so many medical types?

In our group we have a human whose favourite pastime is watching naked troll women’s lacrosse. I challenge any of you artisty types to make a drawing of that, and still have some smidgeon of sanity left afterwards…

Oh the images, the horrible images!

You know, there is nothing saying there aren't prissy, prim female trolls who are skinny as rails, either. In fact, I'd be willing to be, that the ''public opinion'' of beauty might make some of them, particularly ones who expressed later in life, very self-conscious, and turn to things like anorexia/bulimia, massive amounts of cosmetic surgery, and the like. Just like not all male trolls are big tough fighters, I doubt all female trolls are just ''males with boobs.'' Indeed, there are probably a good portion of trolls who are just average Joes and Janes, who just want to get their(large) apartment and work their desk job, with little or even no interesting in wrestling or heavy weapons.

Uh. Yes there is: Physics. Like another one wrote in this very thread: Humans that exceed a certain height but lack the "built" to go with it need help getting up or must even support themselves somehow.

I'm all for "Average Joe" kinda trolls, but given their general appearance and height (and racial bonuses to attributes) even "average" is "above average" by norm standards.

I mean, a certain gorilla may be a whimp in comparison to other gorillas, but he can still beat the shit out of a chimp.

Which reminds me of something I read about SR orks: They often get problems with anorexia or similar eating disorders simply because the orkish physique tends to be heavier than the human, particularly with a wider girth leading many ork girls to see themselves as fat compared to the human "norm". This might apply to evenly, or possibly even more so, to trolls.

And yeah: I'd say most trolls are just people, they want to go through their lives without too many knocks, feed their kids and avoid trouble.

Actually that is so awesome it is pure win.

That's assuming the Theory of Evolution is true.

Also, I thought the dermal deposits were referred to as "sub-dermal" in a couple places. I always figured that wherever the bones are closest to the skin (shins, forearms, sternum, collarbone, ect.) the bone would have grown closer/through the skin. Natural shin guards, chest guard, and forearm guards. Harder bone. More armor.

It should be noted that the dermal deposits only add 1/1 armor. Clothing adds more armor in this game. Think about how much armor 1 point is.

I did the conversions into American, and trolls average 8.2 feet tall and about 668 pounds. A motorcycle weighs about 500.

But think about this-an ''average Joe'' troll might not have any fighting skill whatsoever. Just because you are big, doesn't mean you know how to fight. I've seen larger people who know nothing about fighting get their asses kicked by people smaller than them.

An ''Average Joe'' troll guy, let's say, has no Unarmed skill(or Clubs, or anything), no Firearms skill, and an Agility of 2. The fight would look sloppy and unskilled either way, and Joe Troll would not be able to lay out Joe Human in one hit(he would have 1 die for agility default, and 1 for reach.) Both of them would probably be glitching and while Joe Troll's hit might count for more, it wouldn't be some sound thrashing. .)

I'm also saying that there CAN be weaker, unhealthy trolls. Infirm, etc, can come into play. Even though by RAW it says their minimum Body and Strength are 5, I just find it hard to swallow that a troll who literally starves themselves, never exercises, has a weak immune system, and the like, has those scores.

This is one reason I'm not a big fan of set minimums in general. For example, forced minimums assume that even the biggest sod of an elf has at least a 3 by human standards. Sorry to say, but if an elf were the most despicable, antisocial, and every negative thing you can think of, I doubt he'd have a 3 even by human standards. Why can't I play a troll that's more in line of a Robert Wadlow, who had suffered from health problems, probably didn't have that big of a Body and Strength despite being almost nine feet tall.

(Another note I must say is that in some cases, magic can be the key. A Fox shifter, by RAW, can take a Troll form, yet keeps his Fox shifter stats. Which means he's a troll with no more than a 5 body or 4 Strength. How would they look in Troll form?)

As for a tall, lankier troll, I believe they can exist. There are examples of very healthy, but tall(7'6''+) people, who aren't overly large. I could probably dig some up online. (In my world, I don't like to limit the fact ''no, if you play a troll, you must be as wide as a house.'' If human examples can be above the norm and still healthy, a troll can be skinnier than average.)

A bit offtopic from the thread as a whole, but it reminds me how I've been wanting to make a system to do something about this. If someone wants to play an uncharismatic elf or a weak troll, they should be allowed to.

Oh dear. Not that again!



That's a very good point. Thanks for reminding us.

The Vitals Protector PPP armor is 1/1. That's literally a cumberbun-looking thing. Dermal Armor adds the same amount.

EDIT: The basic helmet out of BBB is 1/2 armor (IIRC), and that is only on your head. Naked human, wearing only a helmet = 1/2 armor. Slightly better than nekkid troll.

Never caught MRSI, I take it.

Like the Theory of Gravity or Atmoic Theory .

Definition of theory, in the scientific sense: A well-tested concept that explains a wide range of observations.

With that said, in Shadowrun it may indeed be false, since we know magic mucks with science and changes a lot of things.

JaronK

A wizard/dragon/immortal elf/Fortune did it!

Yeah, I always imagined (cause isn't that what we are doing here really? ) that all metatypes can work the full range of body types. Fat elves, skinny trolls, etc. Arguing against it with their high body stats is not really sound, since it can easily be explained with denser muscle structres, etc.

Look at humans in general, we can cover a huge range of sizes, and meta humans are humans after all.

I wouldn't go that far. I have round ears.

/me strokes the curve of his ear.

Don't shoot till you see the points of there ears.

You mean MRSA, staph?I fail to see how that's evolution. Adaptation and evolution are dramatically different animals. You'd actually have to ignore a mountain of evidence that we didn't evolve to believe we did. Like the 10/1 ratio of testing methods that say the world is ~6,000 years old to the testing methods that say ~4.5 billion (or whatever the number is up to now). Or the complete lack of a massive fossile record. Or polystrata fossils. And on and on.

Topic at hand though:

I think we could look at some medical shtuff about calcium deposits and bone spurs and other sites. Evidently, shoulders are one of the first places to gain calcium deposits, and calcification is a combination of Lifestyle Lounge "hardening of the bones as well as soft tissues..". Calcium deposits themselves are just white areas on the skin that makes it more rough, and lends the skin itself a rough look, not small horns and spurs that grow through the skin.

The horns themselves that grow on the head of trolls are actual horns, but something else that should be noted on them is that they don't have a damage code. That implies to me that they aren't large enough to be used as weapons. So no ram-horns. Or bull-horns. I'd imagine them more like this.

Oy, this has gone on long enough. First, the term Theory of Evolution doesn't refer to it being situated on a hierarchy of certainty. The Theory of Evolution is a scientific theory. A scientific theory is defined as (per the NAS): "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses." A scientific theory NEVER becomes a scientific law (which is a generalization about nature). The phrase "theory of evolution" isn't an expression of doubt as to its validity.

There is NO mountain of evidence suggesting that evolution is losing adherents. Pick up any issue of a peer-reviewed biological journal, and you will find articles that support and extend evolutionary studies or that embrace evolution as a fundamental concept. Conversely, serious scientific publications disputing evolution are all but nonexistent. In fact, few anti-evolution manuscripts are even submitted to major scientific publications like Nature or Science. Those papers that do make it in, however, rarely attack evolution directly or advance creationist arguments; at best, they identify certain evolutionary problems as unsolved and difficult (which no one disputes).

No, the fossil record IS there, creationists just put their fingers in their ears, go "la-la-la" and dismiss it. And that 10/1 ratio is completely untrue and would be laughed at by any scientist, no matter what his faith is. You may believe what you like and I won't argue against anyone's beliefs but "creation science" isn't science. And I say this as a church-going Christian who also believes in science (including evolution). The truths of faith and the truths of science work side by side, not one usurping the other. Evolution doesn't make humanity any less special or make the Bible less "true," no matter what conservatives may fear. If some churches put as much effort into helping the needy as they do into trying to debunk ideas that scare it, the world would be a much better place.

I live in Indianapolis and Butler University just hosted its annual "Evolution Sunday: Pastors Who Celebrate Darwin." From Religion Dispatches.



There's really nothing that real life science can compare to with Shadowrun because in Shadowrun real life science is chucked out the window. It's all "magic" and that's part of the allure of the game. No living creature can give birth to a creature that's of a different species. A human couldn't give birth to an "ork" any more than a dog could give birth to a cat. The dermal deposits reference is simply a colorful way to describe why troll skin is tougher. To look deeper into it and try to reconcile it is madness. Even the "cyberpunk" stuff, while sort of comparable to what is possible, is really just fantasy. You can't lop off an arm and replace it with a metal one that is stronger without that metal arm detaching from the body. And a series of on/off sold state processors can't become an artificial intelligence through the act of love because a) there is no unified scientific explanation as to what "intelligence" is or how to measure it and b) artificial intelligence assumes it's possible to recreate organic processes using inorganic materials.

I have always appreciated the pains Shadowrun took to try and create a feel of realism. From the discussions on how all that junk DNA that science thought was just filler suddenly became active in a mana-rich environment, from the gutter-sociology around the appearance of metahumanity to the carefully balanced power-levels (even dragons die in a hail of MMG fire) and impact of magic on security and commerce. It's been my feeling that the presence of elves and dragons doesn't make realism unimportant. It makes it more important.


Anyway, on the subject of realism but back on topic, I have to say that raben-aas's trolls are great. Particularly these two: Link and link. The first is not only good art, but a great and realistic take on troll proportions. The second... *ahem* hubba hubba hubba! . Is there any chance you might colour these up? Shadowrun needs pictures like this to accurately represent troll women.

Also, would you allow me to include them (with proper attribution) in my Shadowrun: Swimsuit Edition collection (currently in draft)?

This is a great thread!

K.

There is no logical defense of any anti-evolutionary standpoint. There is a lack of evidence in certain areas of it, in that the details are unclear, but the evidence for evolution is overwhelming. Period. Claiming anything other than this in the face of universal scientific support throughout the entire world really IS sticking your fingers in your ears and saying la-la-la.

I outright refuse to address the claim of 6,000 year-old-earth. Disputing geologic ages by so many orders of magnitude borders on the patently ridiculous.

I think what makes it feel "real" is that the game has 20 years of relative consistency, the writers dress up the magic in pseudo-science mumbo jumo (which always sounds plausible! ), and we as players have creative enough minds to take fact and fantasy and smoosh it together into a shared hallucination.

consensual hallucination

A dog can't give birth to a cat, but a great dane can give birth to a poodle. There is nothing unnatural about an extreme degree of variation within a single species.

Consciousness matrix?

Totally true. And totally beside the point.

I for one lack any fighting skills at all, but I once had a weight of 130 kilo, and at a height of 1,90 m and with broad shoulders I could easily win any staredown you like.

The issue here is: How does an attractive female troll LOOK. Never mind the ugly ones, never mind if the attractive "she" knows what she can do with her physique.

Whoever she is: She HAS attribute bonuses, because SR defines her so. So: Being an average troll makes her an above-average "human" (norm) in the light of certain attributs. And that is that.

All of your recent troll-esses have been hot. The only change I recommend is making that blond a redhead.

Not nearly enough redheads around.

Err, in the art. Yeah, thats what I was talking about... the art.

Blue Max! A man after my own heart!

Not true. One is a subset of the other. That's like saying "I get that you can walk to the corner market, but it's totally impossible to get across the country. Therefor, my people must have been living where I am forever." Genetic adaptation over time = evolution.



Give one example.



Totally false. Every dating method in existence other than "a book says so" puts the age as either in the 5.4 billion year range or older than the dating method is capable of measuring. For example, carbon dating can't go back more than a few thousand years (the amount of carbon 14 is too little to measure, because the half life is too short), while radio dating of other elements goes back much farther.

But prove your point... give me 10 bits of actual data that really show the world is anywhere in the ballpark of 6000 years.



What? There's plenty of fossils all over the place. The fossil record is well documented. What are you even talking about here? That's like saying the earth is flat because there's a complete lack of being able to see the curvature of the earth when you're on a ship. You can, so the argument is pathetic.



"Polystrate" is not a scientific term, it should be noted... and it means a fossil that was formed upright. That's not evidence, that's throwing out a big word. The fact that rapid sedimentation can occur, and is easy to identify, and yields vertical fossils is not a falsification of anything.

But here, you want evidence for an older earth? Genetic testing recently found the so called "Mitochondrial Eve," the most recent existant female human to be related entirely through the matriarchal line to all existing human females (easily found, because mitochondria pass only through women). She lived roughly 140,000 years ago (and to be clear, that doesn't mean she was the only woman around, just that all the other women at the time had their genetic line broken by at least one male at appropriate points). The Y Chromasome Adam, by the way, lived about 60,000 years ago. And this is easily demonstrable with actual evidence.

So, you've made a few false assertions with no actual data. Let's see 10 points of actual data (not made up stuff, or randomly saying big words) to maintain your 10 to 1 ratio, okay?

Yeesh.

Though I will buy that within the world of Shadowrun, it could have been that a dragon did it.

JaronK

If the size difference is substantial the skilled guy has to be a lot better than the big guy to win. Strength means a lot in a fight, and size especially when it gives a solid reach advantage means even more.

... and now you see why I said it.

Yeah, it was unavoidable. It´s really not possible to answer that fundamentalist claim within the TOS, but it´s less acceptable to let it stand.

Agreed. Size makes a lot of difference. But one interesting factor is the seriousness of the fight. A lot of fights out on a Saturday night involve a lot of posturing, a lot of shouting, sometimes a bit of walking away then coming back, finally a bit of shoving followed by a headlock or some rolling around on the ground. In the UK, there is also usually a v. skinny girl in a v. tiny skirt standing at the side saying: "Leave it alone, Darren, it's not worth it!" In such situations, size makes a great deal of difference. To the point that if one person is significantly larger than the other, you're probably not going to get that sort of fight.

On the other hand, someone who is 140lbs and really knows how to punch their weight can be just as dangerous as someone larger. One of the toughest people I've know was small and, though moderately thick set was hardly big. But we got into a bit of a fight once with some other guys and bam - 100% that weight was neatly and unexpectedly transferred through a point the size of his knuckle to one of the other guys' chins and that - considerably larger individual - was out like a light.

There are probably a lot of trolls out there who don't know how to fight. There are probably a lot of trolls who make it a point not to know how to fight just to get away from the troll bouncer image. But in all the non-fights, the posturing and the shoving and the 'are you looking at my girl' face downs, trolls have a big advantage.