I should also mention that I've got two friends who are both MMA fighters... not professional level, but they definitely practice and train a good bit, and I'd certainly not want to get into a fight with either one. One of them, however, has a noticeable reach advantage and about 30 pounds of weight advantage, simply due to being bigger, and while the smaller one can definitely put up a fight, that advantage is still pretty darn big.

I would expect it to be much more the case when we're talking about trolls... they're huge!

JaronK

I like keying the reality of the setting on the actual rules. An average human hitting an average troll, even with a little bit of martial arts training, (e.g. Unarmed 1, maybe 2), will on average do no damage at all.

And that goes for male and female trolls.

Oh, I've seen ''the little guy'' win plenty of times, in televised fights, and a few real life situations.

Funny thing is, if ''strength'' is so important in a fight, why doesn't it count for more in-game?(Well, i guess game balance is pretty much it, but with alll of the outside things you can get-they probably could have lowered the impact of outside forces and made Strength count for more, perhaps.) If Shadowrun tries to go for some realism, why is Agility the combat stat of choice, Strength is halved, and many situations of people having insane DV, it comes from things like skill(martial arts qualities giving DV, which makes sense), other outside sources like bone lacing and magic. For example, a 2 strength weakling can hit for, by RAW, 8P rather easily(1 from Strength, 3 Bone Density 4, 3 Martial Arts +3 DV, Hardliners...and this one isn't even an adept). That is, for the power of that person, a *lot* of damage. Sure, the guy with 7 strength can hit +3 DV higher, but given the actual difference in strength, you'd expect it to be a lot more to that.

It leads me to believe being agile and skilled DOES mean a lot to a fight. Again, I've seen some ''little guys'' who scared me(or would have scared me, but they were cool, but you know what i mean) way more than some of the bigger guys that I knew.

That being said, I've always been of the opinion that general physical fitness overall, helps the matter.

But good point about that posturing and the like. I mean, the troll might not be able to barely beat up the punching bag at his nerdy friend's house and be the troll equivalent of a wimp-but he doesn't look wimpy to a human, but he'd be more likely to get someone to shove off without having to prove anything(or in his case, end up in a lot of trouble since he doesn't know the first damn thing about fighting). The prettyboy elf who looks like a random member of a goth band standing next to him might well be able to crush someone's head like a melon with one hand while tearing out a spine with the other, but he, I'd guess, due to his appearance, might be forced to fight more often, as no one would be likely to believe him(but then again, this is where things like Intimidation skills come in. Assuming neither have the skill, I'd say the Troll is still way more likely to scare someone on appearance.)

EDIT: No damage at all? He'd get a bit in.

Keep in mind, I'm coming from a lot of situations in game. I'm not talking too much real life-but game. In recent situations, my samurai elf could beat the living crap out of the troll boxer any day of the week. Neither character were overly-super-twinked, but they were both build ''well'' so to speak. But my elf was actually the same strength, he had much higher Agility(so when Strength is equal, Agility seems to be the next telling thing), and still rolled good (body 4-5 I think, with lacing.) Troll had better defense(armor and body wise-reaction was decent but not excessive), but my elf's damage after the boosts were so excessive it became rather difficult for the troll to shrug it off; likewise, the elf had higher Reaction, so the troll was often unable to get his hit in, due to lesser dice from Agility. (Friendly sparring, for the record.)

Neither character was average, true, but it seems that if someone DOES manage to come within a couple points of a troll's strength-easy with mods-and it doesn't even have to be even like those two guys above were-the higher Agility character suddenly has a bit of an advantage. Which again goes back to ''overall fitness.''

EDIT: I'm definitely not saying anyone here with more experience on fighting is wrong. I am just saying things i have seen, and experienced, in game. Once you equal out strength and skill(be it natural, or cyber, or whatever), other stats DO count for something, surely. (of course, in Shadowrun melee, even more than a high Body, strength, or even agility, an excellent reaction/dodge/defense score really helps matters. I think this is where more of the big, slow guys i've seen in action have their trouble in combat-without a large pile of melee dice, and I mean large, it can be very hard to hit someone with a solid die pool in defense, since ties go to defenders, and in melee, you can have a rather large pool without even having to go full.) Anyway, sorry for the slight derailment...but this inspired me to do another topic/writeup in my blog maybe about the different races in melee.

I do not consent to hallucinating with you. Stay out of my head.

True. A great dane can mate with a poodle and create a poodle-dane mix. But a dane can't birth a poodle-poodle.

There's a very wide selection of variation in the physical appearance of human beings despite the fact that we're all base-line genetically identical. But no amount of mutation or adaptation can result in a human birthing a completely new (sub) species. Unless a wizard is involved!

Really? Where do you think dog breeds come from, anyway?

The only derailment acceptable in this thread is the following.

The world needs more Hot Redheads

Err Hot Redheaded Trolls.


This thread is not about Forum Trolls, which it is clear there are more than enough of. And people keep feeding them, for reasons I cannot fathom.

Unless you use invitro fertalization of course.

I have started prodding the GF about drawing a (redheaded) Troll woman, but she says she´ll do her Night One next. We´ll see.

Egads, you're right. Spiderman's wife*, Mary Jane, has just goblinized into a troll. Someone, draw that picture now!

*One More Day didn't happen and I'll utterly destroy anyone who says that it did.

Let's not forget mules. One of god's own prototypes.

Eurasian Gray Wolves. Breeders can breed out certain traits and breed in others. But it takes successive generations to do so. Two danes aren't going to spontaneously pop out a full-blooded poodle. Though that's not even a good example for Shadowrun. I'll stick by my original comparison of two dogs creating a cat.

The Vadoma are a result of a combination of genetic mutation and limited population size. But they're still quantifiable as human. From what I understand of "Shadowrun genetics" humans, orks, trolls, elves, and dwarves are different species who magically have the ability to reproduce with one another and create full-species offspring. There are no half-orks, half-elves or dwarf-trolls like what "normal" genetics would suggest you'd get. It's not a matter of cross-race/breed breeding, it's a matter of cross species reproduction which is the realm of science-fiction.



And the hinny. And the platapus, one of the only venomous mammals!

That would be a great ad in some circles: "Roleplaying games - Where the world works according to your faith!"

Which is wrong. Cats and dogs are different species, metahumans are different sub-species ("races").

Then why does all of SR fluff present them as mere sub-species of Homo sapiens, down to the taxonomy?

No, it's a matter of magic.

And, interestingly enough, due to the taxonomy, allows the creation of spells like (Troll) Form or (Elf) Form. If indeed humans are just animals that have advanced. Evolution supports the creation of those spells.

Maybe you'll argue that trolls, orks, elves, and dwarves are the PC equivalent of paracritters, since they require magic to exist (otherwise their meta-genes go into remission and they revert to vanilla humans). In that case, that still allows for a (Human) Form spell.

Back to the topic at hand though, I'm planning on drawing up a Japanese troll woman named Sakura, because she has cherry-flavoured orthoskin.

There's an Ork on pg. 176 in Runner's Companion that has a pretty high charisma.

There are lots of genetic traits that are bipolar - present or absent. The only ones I can recall off the top of my head have to do with bone characteristics (archaeologists don't usually get to see much flesh on their subjects). These may still be governed by traits such as dominance-recessiveness and penetrance, but still express either fully or not at all.

Magic could have activated a suite of formerly dormant genes that are of this type. So meta-human sub-speciation could fit into current understanding of genetics... as long as we accept magic.

Yeah, and one helluva chastity belt, too!

They also have the most sensitive electroreception of any mammal. They can actually detect the electrical pulses emitted by their prey's muscles. Interestingly, I wonder if they're the inspiration for the Techomancer E-sensing echo, as well as the similar genetic modification.

Although I don't understand how the platypus is relevant, given that we're talking about interspecies cross-breeds.

They also are the only mammals that lay eggs, IIRC.

I think Platupie (plural?) are permanent spike babies.

Nope... five species of monotremes ( spike baby mammals? ).

Good news on the female troll front: While doing artwork for an upcoming SR book, I was able to sneak a female troll in. Right in the middle of a full-page pic (no, it's not in 10 jackpointers. There wasn't any femtroll in that, unfortunately. Turbo Bunny looks nice, nevertheless). Njoy the pic when you find it.

Big Grrls rule

Excellent. Thanks very much.

Here some tall references. I would assume a troll would be a lot thicker and have horns. Use your imagination.

http://www.oneinchpunch.net/wordpress/wp-c...t-man-466in.jpg

http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2008/03/Giant...ERS_450x500.jpg

http
://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/08_0...08_468x357.jpg


tall

http://www.mikeandmandy.us/uploads/Tall_Man.jpg

http://lh4.ggpht.com/fisherwy/RuwDFkm1jjI/...hina%5B2%5D.jpg

http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/sep2009/...am-97252738.jpg

for the ladies

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/pi...24/80853107.jpg

A Troll Merc and his Mol

http://remainaery.deviantart.com/art/Golia...ission-58533216

"for the ladies"???

OK, what 'zoo' is that?

Risking that someone already posted it, but this one should do the trick

You may want to check the pictures of the Orcish Pistol Adept in SR4, the Orcish Street Sam on the Cover of "Running Wild" or the Orcish Yakuza member in "Seatle 2072" before uttering such statements =)

The marvels of genetic engineering and reconstructive surgery.

Seeing this thread reminded me of the SRM02_07 mission, where the DocWagon facility to be raided has a female troll working the front desk (picture of her on page 23). Not sure if it was mentioned here before or not.

Ahh, very nice. I don't think she'd fall under the 'stereotype', but quite lovely.

She's probably closer to a Fomori, but I guess Metavariants do count =)

Just because the artists catalyst hires can't read the lore doesn't make it correct.

Seriously why do people always make orcs and troll females hot humans with tusks or horns? They are a totally different race and should look different, and there ideas of beauty should be different as well.

Why? Trolls and orcs were originally humans until they goblinized. Why should they suddenly find horns and huge muscles and rough skin attractive? The fact is that a troll doesn't have any more reason to find another troll attractive than a human has a reason to find a troll attractive.

Oh, and I'm sure this was mentioned, but the opening story in the SR4 book has one of the runners as a female troll, and even includes a picture of her.

They are not a different race. They are a different phenotype. They are still homo sapiens. Considering how much you emphasize lore, I am surprised you didn't know that.

Besides, you may want to read up on the UGE. It is biologically impossible to sire offspring of a different race. And while we are SR lore, you may also want to check out teenage Goblinization of humans into Orks and Trolls.

Besides, what makes you think their beauty ideal changes just because their own physical form changes? That said, in SR you can bet your left nut that you will find human females that find troll males attractive as well as elven models who have fetish for dwarves or orks, just as much as you will find trolls that find that hot elven simstarlet very much conforming with their sense of "inner beauty".

in previous edition the female trolls were in background and blurry ... No one wanted to see one !

When goblinzation was common maybe, but in 2070 most Trolls and Goblins were born that way and have there own societal niches.



No they are a different race. Homo Sapien Sapein for human, Homo sapien nobilis for elves, can't remember the rest. In shadowrun Racism actually is a correct label for what people like the Humanis do. They dislike people of different races, currently we have ethnicism(sp?) which we commonly call racism.

Even if you're born a troll/orc it doesn't mean that you'll be psychologically wired to find your phenotype attractive.



You just really need to stop. They are phenotypes, which means they are the same race with different expressions. Homo Sapien Sapein and Homo Sapien Nobilis are still Homo Sapien which is a race, the addition of the third word (Which isn't scientific) is simply a classification added for clarification, not indication of a new race. Also, different races can't breed viable offspring. Any two metatypes can have a viable child, which means they are all the same race.

This is why you ALWAYS see 'metatype' and not 'race' because they are all the same race, just different metatypes. What you're trying to claim is that a poodle and a pitbull are different races, when they aren't. They're both dogs, they just have vastly different phenotypes.

Are you trying to kid me or is your knowledge of taxonomy really that bad? They are still homo sapiens. And even if they called them differently (which they don't), they would still have to be homo sapiens. Anything else would be impossible. It's really that simple. Now you can scream, kick and shout until your face turns blue, but it won't change that simple fact.

I don't give a shit what science says. Since this was a lore discussion i am going by how SR in the past has defined them. And they have defined them as races. Also doesn't change the fact that Hot troll women is just effing Anime fan boy stupidity, where no matter the creature if its a female its got to be hot.

you just really need to stop. critters in the same genus can usually have offspring. thats the homo. If they are homo sapien nobilis that means they are simply a seperate subspecies, but still not just a differant phenotype. and remember bengal and siberian tigers are differant subspecies. Lions and tigers are the same genus. If yer gona claim trolls and humans are the same except a differant phenotype I think a referance to RAW is in order; course if yer gona say the other way a RAW referance would be good as well. as a shot from the hip though I think trolls have enough differant features to be their own species, and probably elfs as simply a seperate subspecies.

You should really stop diggin your own grave:



Don't just use "lore" as an excuse, especially when the lore directly contradicts your claim.



According to the BBB, all Metatypes (including humans) are a subspecies of homo spaiens. You do realize, that humans are classified as homo sapiens sapiens right? They are still all homo spaiens.

Although you are right, they are not merely a phenotype. However, they are not a distinct race, either. Especially considering SR lore like the goblinization or UGE, considering them a phenotype rather than a distinct subspecies is not that far off, even if SR classifies them as a subspecies. I guess that's where we use magic as our deus es machina.

Science has nothing to do with Trolls, they are born of magic. Hence the whole cycle of magic bringing them back.

and yes I know we are homo sapiens sapiens.

Agreed. Daylen, you obviously have no idea what your talking about. Everything you say contradicts both what the book says, and what science tells us is the definition of a species (Or at least one of the most common definitions). All you're doing is shouting "LORE LORE LORE." like it somehow backs up your argument.

Does anyone have a Copy of SR1 handy? I am at work and cannot remember what the first Priority table is called. If I was in person, I would bet anyone around it certainly was not metatype.

BlueMax

SR 2 already talked about "five relevant subtypes of homo sapiens"...

There are some mentions of "race", but all races (including sapiens sapiens) are described as subsets of homo sapiens. So obviously the authors just did not bother with the correct scientific terminology.

so that leaves a few unanswered questions.

plane humans: homo sapiens sapiens
elfs: homo sapiens nobilis
trolls: homo sapiens ????
Orcs: homo sapiens ?????
dwarfs: homo sapiens ?????

No, they are not. They are born because their DNA entailed dormant genes, that needed a minimum level of magic to be activated. They are not born out of magic, they are born because of magic. That is a huge difference.

If they were born out of magic, you could not use genetic modification to simly turn yourself into a Troll or Ork or Dwarf or Elf or Human at will (as long as you have the money and connections).

being a science person perhaps I'm not familure with what the most common definitions are; I use the scientific ones.
with homo being the genus, sapiens being the species and the subspecies would be after that.

Does that really matter? At all?