I don't know about 180....

It's good to see the FAQ stopped from radically changing the RAW. The limitation on attributes is good... (though it does keep trolls and orcs as de-facto possession kings).

It's also good to see armor clarified... my argument was based on the fact that that portion of the rules was ambiguous (and the purpose of a FAQ is to clarify ambiguous not change published rules). It's the only armor which people regularly assumed stacked which had no words to that effect... my goal to point out that it didn't necessarily need to as a GM's call while staying within RAW. One way to put it would be every different piece of armor had a special case stacking/non-stacking clause except hardened, and there is no general stacking rule published anywhere.

In any case, my problem was the unlimited stacking of aromr and attributes... w/ the attribute changes... I have far less issues w/ these.

Hmm... so... could a mage Shapechange themselves *then* get possessed? Since you are no longer a metahuman you are no longer subject to metahuman attribute limits. From what I can tell there are no limits on critter attributes.... so a troll mage could shapechange into a rhino and then get possessed turning into an uber rhino. You also get to use your successes to add to the base stats. You could probably get up to 40 body/str.

I know that the spirit still gets to add the armor; my main issue has been (what appeared to me) the argument that the massive armor pool that Possessed vessels was all Hardened.

sn0mm1s:
What portion of MAGIC cannot augment you past your natural augmented maximums is hard to understand.

Where is shapechange listed as an exception to that rule? Nowhere.

Shapechange makes pains specifically to limit you to forms close to your own size. (within 2 points of your body score).

Also, your logic is flawed... shapechangers have augmented limits as well and they're specifically non-metahumans... (and the augmented limit is not always 50% over the base attribute... sometimes it's less). Sasquatch and other non-metahumans also have augmented maxes listed. So no, critters aren't special, their maxes would be up to your GM to set upon. (he'll probably balk at a str 15 norwegian wharf rat for example)

sn0mm1s:
What portion of MAGIC cannot augment you past your natural augmented maximums is hard to understand.

Where is shapechange listed as an exception to that rule? Nowhere.

Shapechange makes pains specifically to limit you to forms close to your own size. (within 2 points of your body score).

Also, your logic is flawed... shapechangers have augmented limits as well and they're specifically non-metahumans... (and the augmented limit is not always 50% over the base attribute... sometimes it's less). Sasquatch and other non-metahumans also have augmented maxes listed. So no, critters aren't special, their maxes would be up to your GM to set upon. (he'll probably balk at a str 15 norwegian wharf rat for example)

I always saw their Hardened Armor as only the Force of the Spirit x 2... nothing else would add to that Hardened Armor, so the rest really did not matter for that purpose...

I never really saw it in any other way...

Keep the Faith

In my case it would be the part of where I ask for a reasonable explanation of anything magical and people tell me to piss off. I'll just settle for 'its magic' and NONE of the rules of SR magic say anything about only being able to augment you so far.


And more points for every success. So if you get exploding 6's and get 20 successes, it should be a +20 to your stats, but its not. This places hard caps on magic which don't actually exist under the rules of SR magic.

Exept that for Critters (The Restriction of Shapechange) have no hard caps for their Normal Stats, let alone their Augmented Stats (with the Exception of Humans, which are indeed Critters)... therefore your +20 to the Critter's form will still be a +20 to the Physical stats of the Critter (unless I have missed something somewhere else)...

Of course, there may be some Common Sense limits put in place here... I find it hard to believe that a Rat could have a +5 to ANY physical Stat (betond the base stat), let alone a +20... Just Sayin'

keep the Faith

There is one thing possession can do that materialization cannot:
A voodoo shaman can still literally win fights and arguments with straw men.

The exact rule is:
"The maximum augmented attribute value for
each metatype is equal to 1.5 times this figure, rounded down (see the
Metatype Attribute Table, p. 81)."

Emphasis mine. Last I checked, an elephant isn't a metatype.



Shapechange (Physical)
Shapechange transforms a voluntary subject into a normal (non-paranormal)
critter, though the subject retains human consciousness. The
subject can only assume the form of a critter whose base Body rating
is 2 points greater or less than her own. Consult the Critters section,
p. 292, for the subject’s Physical attributes while in critter form. Add 1
to the critter’s Base attribute Ratings for every hit the caster generates.
Her Mental attributes remain unchanged.
This spell does not transform clothing and equipment. Magicians
in critter form can still cast spells, but cannot perform other tasks requiring
speech.
Critter form works like the Shapechange spell, but only allows the
subject to change into a specific non-paranormal animal. Each critter
form is a different spell (Eagle Form, Wolf Form, and so on).

Are you saying that a troll of body 10 can't turn into a normal elephant with 16 STR or say a troll of body 5 and str 10 won't have str 10 when he turns into an antelope? Or both?



Yes, and has no other restrictions.



Shapechangers have their own rules explicitly defined. Normal critters do not. You are saying a GM would balk at a str 15 rat but wouldn't balk at a str 15 robot action figure? Or are you saying that a GM would balk at a possessed str 15 live rat but not at a possessed str 15 dead one?

I wish I could posrep you for this.

Thanks, -- N

I'm not disagreeing, but I have the same problem with the new rulling on possession. A force 20 spirit possesses a normal human, a second one possesses a straw scare crow. To me it seems odd that the scare crow should be able to beat the crap out of the human, but the rules now allow for it.

Ya this pretty much sums up my whole problem with the change.

Check this out for a fun topic of conversation in this thread:

LINK to idea about Endowment

Here are a few of my posts from before the faqalypse:

Fun with endowment (some methods are more powerful than others, but they all have their uses)

Here's one where I started asking about Endowment and got some input from Ancient History.

More coolness! Thanks. We should remember that a character can only be Endowed with one Power at a time. (SM, p. 99)

Well that's what Binding is for. You may not be able to have multiple Endowments from one spirit, but you can have multiple Endowments from multiple spirits.

"No character may gain more than one power from a spirit in this way at a time."

so, you get astral form and materialization from your two bound spirits and now you are the magical teleporting Ethan Hunt to break in everywhere. if you got Masking wards aren't probably no limit since you have ~8 int+ 8mag +grade2 vs force x 2 for fooling. item stealing might be difficult, but information you can just remember or maybe upload data.
furthermore, look for one or two free spirits and spirit pacts to give you realistic form and mutable form. now you can be everyone everywhere

oh, is this still the possession thread?

Interestingly, most books that I have read that deal with this (outside of Shdowrun) tend to portray it that way though... The only limits to your Homonculous is the structure of the material... Humans have a distinct structure that cannot be overcome without seriously damaging the vessel. At that point, I would expect something that is not flesh to have a better time of that sort of thing... of course, they may have inherent problems of their own as well (which Shadowrun does not attempt to protray), as the Strawman would be susceptible to fire (as an example)...

Not arguing, just sayin'

Keep the Faith

I am sorry... A Spirit is not the same as The Spirit... My read is that you may only have a single endowed power at a time... Period.

"A" is a reference that includes many options, while "The" is an example of a specific option...

For example... A Car is not the Same as THE Car...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

Chiming in very late here I know.

There are a couple of points I've come across reading this thread that tweaked my radar.

First, Knasser stated a number of times that a Channelling Mage uses the possessing spirit's mental and Magic stat for skill use and spellcasting.

I can't find any support for that position in the text (or common sense) and am surprised he would suggest that a Magic 6 Mage could possess himself with a Force 12 spirit and then use it's Magic of 12 to rinse and repeat....

Secondly, Pbangarth noted that Task spirits are just as good for Materialization traditions as for Possession.

This would indeed be a good point if any Materialization tradition got access to them.

There are a lot of various "Traditions" that are not detailed in the Books... I am willing to bet that one of those are a Materialization Tradition, and indeed has access to the Task Spirit...

Keep the Faith

Oh I agree. Fully and without reservation. Far too much of value and fun is sacrificed on the altar of Balance. Rock, paper, scissors. Eggshells armed with hammers. This is the charm of Shadowrun as opposed to something like D&D: It's an asymetrical game which is why you get so much subterfuge and backstabbing and planning. Which is also why it was exasperating when threads complaining that possession was unbalanced with Materialisation periodically pop up because in a D&D style game with everything taken out of context, it appeared powerful. What I've been arguing is what you just said. But some of the devs appear to have heard these complaints and appear to have changed things in attempt to introduce balance with Materialisation. The consequence is to in fact make it significantly worse than Materialisation in many ways.

The dual entity that results from possession when the vessel isn't channeling, has the mental and special attributes of the spirit. That's explicitly stated in the book. Channelling states that the channeling magician can use her own skills. Spell casting is obviously a skill. The only reference to changes to attributes under channeling different to normal possession, is that the magician resists mana spells with the lowest of the two entities' Mental attributes. It states to otherwise resolve the effects and duration of possession normally. Strict RAW seems to be that yes, the entity is using the spirit's Magic stat. If one were to consider spells to be intimately tied to a character's own Magic attribute, i.e. a character's attribute is some sort of integral part of their spell casting rather than a battery that can be plugged into different spell casters (for want of a better analogy), then you might wish to rule that spell casting goes from the original magician's Magic attribute. I can't however see RAW support for it. I personally would not be in favour of Magician's getting to use their own Magic stat anyway for the sake of the effect on the game. If a magician gets to use their own Magic and Mental attributes, then they can possess themselves with low to medium force spirits without impacting on their ability to cast spells. Possession mage players would love this! As it is, if a possession magician wishes to have comparable or better spellcasting whilst possessed, they have to get a pretty powerful spirit, say Force 6+ to possess themselves. And the more powerful the magician, the higher force the spirit has to be to keep up. Some seem to be arguing that getting a Magic boost from a high-force spirit is unbalanced or some sort of cheat. I find when possession is used in practice, the risks and costs of high force spirits become apparent and what has far greater impact, is the limiting effect of not being able to get much utility out of medium and low force spirits. Materialisation magicians can get great use out of Force 3's or even lower. Possession magicians are either weakening their own spellcasting abilities to be possessed by such spirits, taking chances about whether or not they'll be able to use the spirit at all if possessing enemies or going with the approach of carrying around hormunculi with them everywhere (often not viable). Letting magicians get away with using their own Magic and Mental attributes when possessed severely reduces this effect.

K.

This was an attitude I felt certain I would never see expressed on Dumpshock unless I had been sniffing substantial quantities of paint thinners.

I'm pretty sure that sort of ruling could be exploited into all new levels of lunacy.

Meh. If a player thinks it's a good idea to trade steady and low-risk advantage for being able to get minor boosts to their Magic attribute by summoning expensive / risky spirits, then more fool them. It's a bad bargain. And I do mean minor boosts. A Force 8 spirit which is dangerously powerful, gets you Magic 8. Big deal, that's a couple more dice than 6 which a powerful magician (if he's summoning Force 8's, he'd better be) can have fairly easily and comparable with initiation. So you get an extra hit and you can cast higher force spells without overcasting. The better benefit is the boost to your drain attributes. But it's quite simply not worth giving up the utility of low-force spirits for. People keep posting examples showing how a magician all prepared and optimised for possession and in perfect condition is dangerous. Never mind that when your magician is shot to bits and you need to get out of there, what you really want to do is pull up a Force 4 that you can handle the drain from and have it cover you whilst you retreat. The last thing you need is to be forced to pull up something higher force just so your magic abilities aren't trashed and which has to operate via you - putting you in the line of fire - rather than holding the rear.

I'm not painting this black and white - you can use the substitution of Special and Mental attributes to your advantage. But for the most part, unless the GM is just ignoring all wider issues and letting you dictate the terms of all your missions and encounters, I think most players would find it an effect that more restricts than liberates.

Basically, if a player thinks boosting their spell casting ability by adding on the whole risk / cost of summoning high force spirits is some sort of free lunch, I've got a bridge to sell them.

K.

Large point... critters are a category.. METHAHUMANS do not have attribute limits, METATYPES do. It is impossible to give augmented maximums to a type which has no singular stats.

For you to argue that critters is non-capped is a given. Yes an elephant or whale is going to have monstrous caps compared to a mouse. However, a mouse will still have augmented max AS DECIDED BY YOUR GM. A look at the shapechanger table will show that critters do not always have a 6 point range of advancement either. (some of them have things like 4/7(10)).

You're going to have a very hard time convincing any GM on this channel... that while a human has augmented limits... a rat does not.

I still hold that even shapechange shouldn't enhance your new form past your natural limits. Saying it's a new form is on different from the argument possession types claimed... that the merged spirit/man was a new critter and therefor advanced base instead of augmented stats.

You're not thinking this through.

If you are allowing a magician to use the special attributes that the spirit overwrites his own with you are in for a world of hurt when you see some of the lunatic builds that will inspire.

In the time it took me to type that it occurs that Edge is also a special attribute.

I'm sure you have at some point been party to the raging argument over Muss's Edge Burning summoner build. Now imagine what he would be able to do with the ability to use a possessing spirit's Magic and Edge to fuel his lust for world shattering power.

I'm just going to keep the old possession rules. I'd rather have the issue of dealing with the occasional extremely powerful being than come up with augmented maximum caps on a case-by-case basis. A system that gets a bit wonky on the extreme end if you allow players to bring min-maxed one trick pony summoners to the table and to spend loads of Edge during downtime (which I don't) is currently less problematic for me than one which kinda bones my current group's human houngan (he's lost a couple attribute points to Initiation rituals).

That seems to be a truly bizarre interpretation if I'm reading it right. A Human with a 2 base Body who turns into a Mouse can get up to a 9 body (9 hits on spellcasting test) because he was originally a human so his Augmented Cap is 9. But another Human who has a base 6 Body turns into a Camel (base Camel body is 8 which is +/-2 from the human's 6 Bod) will only have a max body of 9 even with those same 9 hits on the spellcasting test? In addition, the Mouse will have Str 9 vs the Str 9 Camel?

I think his point was that the animal should have some kind of augmented maximum as decided by the GM...

God, I stopped looking at this thread once I saw the new faq, thinking it would calm down, wishful thinking eh?

I like the new ruling, I think it makes it possible to use either possession or materialization spirits without compromising on playability, my interpretation of the term balance.

For those who think possession spirits are underpowered now, I have to say that they still do have a lot of advantages and just because they now have a disadvantage (not being able to interact with the physical world without possessing is not a disadvantage to any player with enough imagination) does not mean that they are inferior to materialization spirits. First off, for the people who are using the example of force 20 spirits...congratulations, your mage had just killed himself with 14P drain. Using such ridiculously over the top examples doesn't help you prove your point, it only goes to show that you're trying to be manipulative and sway the thread with arguments that couldn't actually happen in a real game of shadowrun. As has already been stated, for any mage that would actually consider summoning high force possession spirits on a regular basis, this ruling doesn't actually hurt them much at all. Possession mages I would say are still slightly more powerful than materialization mages, they still take out an enemy on the turn they enter the battle, they still give full ITNW to their summoner when channeled, they still tend to be more powerful when summoned at reasonable levels (I am in fact considering force 8 to be a reasonable level). Now they just aren't so broken and materialization spirits now have some situations where they have an advantage over possession spirits. I challenge anyone here to post a situation in which a possession spirit is inferior to a materialization spirit in all but the highest forces and I will gladly argue with you about the specifics. Until then, please stop complaining about the inferiority of possession spirits, at least until you've thought about it a little bit.

Thank you for reiterating something I have been saying all along. Maybe if more of us keep saying it, it might sink in.

I'm going to have to start a list of challenges issued in this thread. I've given one, now you.

Metahumans, metatypes, and metavariants are defined in multiple places. Normal critters don't fall into any of those categories. This "decided by your GM" argument is meaningless since *anything* can be decided by the GM, I am referring to the *rules* not *house rules*.

You ignored most of what I said. How about a dead rat? How about a small plastic toy robot? Under RAW and the new FAQ they don't have limits. A GM is going to balk at a rat with 9 body but *not* a dead rat or toy? Do I need to build a 12 ft tall robot so I can actually get full use out of my spirit?

If an ork of body 10 (done with qualities) str 3 shapechanges into an elephant are you going to rule that he can't even support his own weight? The new form isn't a metahuman. You aren't shaped like a metahuman nor do you have the muscle mass of a metahuman.

Very good point, I'd temporarily forgotten about Edge. Yes, by RAW the combined entity has the Edge of the spirit as that's a special attribute. And that's really bad because now the PC can't spend their own Edge whilst they're possessed (and I'd feel very safe in ruling that they couldn't spend the spirit's Edge). This just gets worse and worse for possession mages.

As regards lunatic builds, I'm just not seeing it. So you throw everything you can into summoning and self-possessing by as high a force spirit as you can. Force 8 if you don't want to explode on average every three runs (Force 8 pushes it to maybe every ten runs if you're really optimised for this). Great - you've burned a metamagic, lots of build points, probably expensive binding materials, given up the utility of lower-force spirits, become a ticking time bomb of not knowing when that summoned spirit will suddenly roll lots of hits and quite possibly left yourself with a reduced spell list all for the sake of getting perhaps three extra dice to your magic for short bursts Congratulations - you've turned yourself into an early edition 1st level Wizard from D&D with his once a day Magic Missile. Okay, slight exaggeration, but what you're saying doesn't look like I'm "not thinking this through", it looks like a player gimping their character and asking to be taken down by the first run that doesn't go exactly according to plan and dumps them in a situation they're not fully prepared for (e.g. one more encounter than they'd budgeted for, having to summon whilst injured, etc.)

Sorry, I'm open to persuasion, but this is how it would play out in my game, I'm pretty sure.

Peace,

K.

I can think of plenty, and not contrived ones either. Hopefully I'll have a little time this evening to go through a few.

K.

You're inventing a ruling there.

You're entire premise is based on a violently strict reading of the text. A bit like Muss' was doing 4 or 5 pages back about attribute caps and armour stacking.

You can't use strict RAW to support you're argument and then slip in a house rule to counter-balance the lunatic results it generates.

By strict RAW what you are suggesting results in a mage that summons a Force 12, has it possess him and then Binds it. Careful wording should prevent the GM weaseling the spirit out of the vessel before the binding is complete.

When it comes time to make the Binding test he Edges the Test and then burns Edge to win it. As it's the shared Edge of the 'combined entity' and he 'shot first' he's going to win.

Rinse, repeat.

Doubling the Force of the Spirit every time.

Will he instantly acquire Spirit Bane? Damn tootin'. Will he make the Great Ghost Dance look like a damp squib? You betcha'.

You've also forgotten about Ally spirits. Reason I came into this thread is I'm currently building a Vodun mage with a high force Ally. Base Karma cost for a force 12 Ally is under a hundred.

That's going to max out the mental stat's of every race bar Eagle Shifter and give you about 600 Karma worth of special stat's for free.

Bargain.

People are still being pretty cavalier about Summoning that Force 12 spirit. And here you are even Binding it! Let's assume the magician waits for the Summoning Drain to heal (or is tricked out/lucky enough not to have to wait). An average Binding will subject him to 16P Drain damage. So he soaks about 6 of that, and survives because of the Possession but is walking around with about 10P damage. He dies if the spirit leaves him for any reason, such as meeting a magician who realizes the value of Banishing against high Force/low services spirits.

No he won't. He will face a Force 12 spirit that uses its own Edge to fight the burning of Edge. The player wants to be a monster, so can the GM.

The Base Karma is 96. Then there are all the other expenses to make the thing functional. I'm assuming from your text that this is a build with Karmagen. So, once the Ally is built, what Karma is left to make the character strong enough to 1) survive the Summoning, 2) get Channeling and Ally Conjuring (assuming the GM allows Initiation at Karmagen), 3)actually do anything besides be buff?

For the record this isn't my build, it's Muss's, and I strongly disagree with almost every aspect of it.

By RAW however, he does, unfortunately, have a point.

In this instance we are talking about the 'combined entity' that knasser wants to be so strict about RAW application with.

In that case it's not the Spirit's Edge, it's the 'combined entity's' Edge. A combined entity with two minds and two competing sets of actions. However you want to rule it, if the Mage starts things off by spending and burning Edge on the Binding test the Spirit really ought to lose. All things being equal it has less Edge than the Mage to resist.

As to the Ally thing, don't get me wrong, it would be a weak build except in it's area of focus but once you summon that Ally it's far from weak in any area.

You just did an 850 karma build didn't you? I don't know about force 12 but I can tell you that for 300 karma you can do a force 9 Ally no problem at all. I reckon you could easily do a back to basics build on 550 and then splash 300 on Initiate Grade 6 and a Force 9 Ally.

By the time you hit Grade 6 Binding a force 9 or even a force 12 is a walk in the park.

How on Earth is it "violently strict?" It's very clearly stated that with possession, the resulting dual entity uses the mental and special attributes of the possessing spirit. That's pretty much word for word. That covers regular possession. The only amendment that channeling makes to the handling of attributes is that the vessel resists any mana spells or powers with the lowest mental attributes of the two minds. That's it, sum total of the effect of Channeling on the attribute rules for possession. It goes on to say "otherwise resolve the effects and duration of possession normally." Elsewhere it says "the magician can use her own skills and has fine motor control over her body while enjoying the enhancing benefits of the possession power". How would you possibly say it's other than RAW to use the spirit's Magic attribute for the entity? And how could you possibly think that there's any reaching or difficulty in regarding it as RAW? What possible grounds is there for making any different interpretation?



I just don't know how you see this as a double standard. You can't spend the spirit's Edge when you're not channeling, though I see no good reason why the spirit could not. I hope you'll agree with that. So why do you presume this has changed because of channeling? You get your skills made available, you get to pilot your own body. Nothing says anything about having free run of everything else. You can't use a spirit's powers without use of a service - explicitly in the text - so I don't see why you should get to spend its Edge. Rolling dice based on its attributes - well you're doing that all the time when possessed, every time you roll initiative for example. But spending points from an attribute - that's qualitatively different. The rules certainly don't suggest it should be allowable, channeling doesn't list it as a bonus you get from the metamagic and the fluff doesn't even support it (if you can't use a power without approval, I certainly don't see why you get to burn the spirit's resources). The resulting entity is a new thing, but channelling states: "Control is still shared, however" and "a balance can be found between the two minds". Neither of those sound conducive to the magician dominating the spirit, so fluff gives no reason to presume the rules as written are anything other than rules as intended, either.



Okay, this really has to stop. It's bad enough when people are casually using Force 8's in their examples, but a Force 12 is stupid. Do you actually play in games where people get away with this? I'll break down the maths of summoning and binding a Force 12.

Probability of hits by a spirit on its summoning resistance roll at Force 12:


So the most likely result is 8P. But you have a 36% chance of scoring 10P. Wonderful. On average, every three times you do this, you take 10P damage. And the chance of hitting 12P or more is 18%, so that's pretty much 1 out of 5. 7% chance of the hitting the 16P+ damage. It gets vanishingly small after that (though would still happen if done routinely). So if someone said there's a fourteen to one chance of your head exploding every time you try this (which is what 7% is), how many times would you want to try that.

But this is where it gets fun. Want the same figures for binding a Force 12 which is what you're talking about doing?


The most likely drain result is 16P. But it's a fairly wide distribution. Add those percentages up, you'll find that it's 40% chance of hitting 18P or more. 1 in 4 times, it's 20P+. Wow - 1 in 20, you hit 24P. Your examples are absurd when it comes to actual game play.

And your character may spend Edge, no problem: the spirit has a great deal more Edge than you. If a Force 12 spends Edge on a test to resist binding, the likely drain would not only kill your mage, but probably the three mages standing next to him!



I return you to the point about how you're supporting burning the possessing spirit's Edge. This isn't supportable.



I was the one that brought Ally's up in this thread. A Force 12 Ally spirit? At that point, you're like a pet to the Ally spirit. It's as much GM fiat for the ally spirit to help you at that point as it would be to just give you a Force 12 bound spirit. If you're playing a game where everything is an abstract exercise in numbers, then fine. But everyone else is going to have to wonder why a spirit with mental stats of 12 and immense power is bothering to stick around with the comparative idiot that keeps pestering it to help with it's stupid needs. Saying that a Force 12 ally spirits says anything about how balanced the possession rules are, has about as much baring as saying having a tricked out cyberzombie buddy shows the combat rules are unbalanced.

K.

Except RAW states that "If two opposing characters burn Edge in this manner, they cancel each other out." p75 SR4a. Since the character can choose to burn a point of edge, which seriously implies that only a single point of edge can be burned on this, that still gives a force 12 spirit 11 edge, of which he can burn a single point adn bring it right back to where we started, a monster spirit rolling 24 dice to oppose the binding test.

Since you're still limited to the aug max of 1.5, I can't imagine any likely scenario which would enable you to win this, and quite a few cases where you lose badly.

Your picking and choosing how you want to view this to support your argument.

Your original point has always been that the Magician and the Spirit form a single, new, combined entity.

It's not the Spirit's Edge or Magic, it's the new entity's.

It is being controlled by two minds. Control is shared. Channelling calls out one instance, the Powers that came from the Spirit, as not accessible to the Magician without expenditure of a Service.

Your claim is that the Channelling Magician may use his skills as normal but must use the combined entity's attributes.

Channelling places no restrictions on the Magicians skill use. Without explicitly calling out restrictions on skill use he can use all his skills in the normal way.

When making a Binding check he may normally spend and/or burn Edge. In this case his Edge is the Edge of the combined Entity.

At no point does the text of Channelling say that the Magician may not spend or burn Edge on his skill tests, nor does it say he can't buy hits or participate in teamwork tests or extended tests or any of a myriad of other normal facets of skill use.

To say otherwise is a houserule.

It may well be a sensible and balanced, obvious houserule but it is a houserule nonetheless.

I would put it to you that the more sensible and obvious houserule would be to say that a Channelling Magician uses his own Mental and Special attributes to resolve his actions while possessed.

To take the absurd step of stepping out of the mechanics and into fluff for a second what you have here are two auras/souls occupying the same body.

Why would the Magician's aura be permitted to channel mana through the spirit's aura? Why would the Magician get any smarter because he is sharing his body with the spirit? Possession doesn't merge the two minds, that's Inhabitation and is an entirely different beast.

The mechanics of summoning and binding high force Spirits aren't particularly relevant here.

If burning Edge is an option in summoning/binding the mechanics are irrelevant. At best you might look at who had the highest Edge when the spending/burning started in an opposed test. That would be the Magician because he shot first.

(As an aside I view Spirits Edging summoning tests as deeply unfair metagaming. If the Magician cannot compel a Spirit to spend Edge once it has been summoned/bound it shouldn't be permitted to use it before it's summoned/bound.)

Where was I?

Hmmm, looking over the post again you seem to have used the phrase 'spirit's Edge' about nine times.

I would remind you yet again that it is not the Spirit's Edge, it is the 'combined entity's' Edge. It's no more the Spirit's Edge than it's the Spirit's Agility.

Lastly, 'pet to the Ally Spirit'?

Need I remind you that it is a Bound Spirit?

It may feel superior, it may grow to disrespect or dislike it's creator.

It remains a Bound Spirit.

It stays because it has no choice.

And yes, perhaps this says little about the Possession rules and more about the rules on burning Edge. For the record, yet again, I don't agree with burning Edge on opposed tests, I probably would not allow someone to burn Edge on a test they had already spent Edge on and think Muss's Edge Burning Summoner build is wack. It does have debatable RAW support so it can't be ignored, particularly where your case is built on strict reading of the RAW.

Ha, that'll learn me.




There's a sly little addition in SR4A that completely slipped past me. I feel much better now.

I'm not sure whether or not that invalidates my previous argument.

My initial feeling is that by strict RAW, partially.

You could make a case that by spending a point of the combined entity's Edge on the Binding test the Magician prevents the Spirit from spending Edge on the same test.

There isn't a infinite loop there anymore but you can probably Bind a Spirit with a Force approaching the size of your base Dicepool.

I am not. My position is entirely self-consistent and consistent with the RAW. The division you see is only one you see. There's no actual division there, certainly not in RAW and not in fluff as far as I can see. I'll answer your points...



That is so.



Pretty much and for most purposes. Note the exception in the rules concerning resisting mana spells and powers.



In the case of channelling, yes. In normal possession, the spirit's mind is in control. Channelling specifically says you can't use the powers of the spirit without use of a service.



Hardly a claim, that is what the rules state. We're in agreement on this and I can see what's coming a mile away...



And here you've gone off the tracks. Just because an entity can spend edge, doesn't mean it will. And in this case the entity is controlled by two minds. The dual entity has spirit powers, and you can't use those without the spirit's approval. Your argument is that because one thing is explicitly forbidden, anything else is permissible. That's a false argument.

Channeling is pretty specific about what you get for it - access to your own skills and control over the body. It says nothing about gaining control over any other aspects. Obviously if the entity is called on to make use of an attribute by some test, then that attribute is used. But to say that you then have free reign to burn through the spirit's Edge pool is not supportable. Other than gaining control over your body and getting access to your skills, it's explicitly stated everything else is handled as normal for possession. Stating that you can normally spend Edge on a skill test therefore you must be able to, does not follow.



This is incredibly reaching and doesn't become you. If the possessed entity wishes to participate in team work tests, then no problem. Please don't seriously make the argument that if the rules permit you to use your skills in team work tests then you must be able to force a spirit to spend Edge.

EDIT: Hit maximum quote limit. Continued...

You can do that, but it's just messy. Why would you bother? I suppose it makes it a bit easier for possession mages, so if you feel they're underpowered, you could give them this as a freebie. But for me it would just be more unnecessary hassle for no benefit. It removes one of the big limiters on Possession, which is that a magician can't utilize low-force spirits without harming his spell-casting ability. It raises contentious issues such as when a spirit would think of something but the vessel would not, or when both have the same skills but at different levels, etc.



Woah! "Permitted to channel mana through another's aura?" You can come up with any fluff you like and if you particularly like your fluff then you can change the rules to suit it, but you can just as easily find fluff that follows the rules. Certainly in magic, you can. I'm arguing because you're talking about RAW, entirely separate from house rules. By all means play it as you like, but the above has no relevancy to this discussion.



You were the one that brought them up. You are using examples to try and support your point that depend on those mechanics. You're saying "take a Force 12 spirit and this happens..." It is entirely appropriate to call out your mathematics. We will consider this point closed then, assuming you've abandoned using silly-force spirits as part of your arguments.



I see no reason why a spirit couldn't spend Edge. Certainly it's permitted by rules and if some petty little metahuman is burning Edge to bind a mighty being more powerful than dragons, it's entirely appropriate for that spirit to flick an Edge point back. Spirits are characters. I think you don't play them as such. Your example of the Force 12 Ally spirit suggests you don't as well.



Oh for all the legalistic word-splitting. Pardon my using words where my meaning was perfectly clear in place of three times as many.

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A Force 12 ally spirit can walk at any time. It makes a break free attempt as detailed in Street Magic and at Force 12, it's going to do so. The drain will probably knock the magician on his bottom when it does. Street Magic gives such reasons to try and break free as "the magician becomes over-dependent on the Ally spirit". Someone who's spent the last hundred+ karma investing in their Ally spirit? Yeah - that'll do it. Honestly, you need to know the rules better if you're going to try and correct me. "It stays because it has no choice" is very wrong.



I haven't challenged that build on whether it conforms to RAW. I've only pointed out in this thread where people's supposed super-builds don't achieve what they think they achieve.

K.

It's an exaggeration to say that it can walk at any time, if I remember correctly. I'm fairly certain that it can only force the issue if the magician has been incapacitated or during a rebinding ritual, and frankly the latter never really comes up.

True, sorry. It does have to wait for an opportunity. Both will happen though. Indeed, if it's Force 12, it's been through multiple rebindings already, and moving it from Force 11 to Force 12 still means it could have walked. Thanks for the correction.

K.

edit

I'll post a considered reply once you've edited the rudeness from the wrong post above.

???

I apologise for any rudeness in my posts. It's not my intention.

Peace,

Khadim.

That's the part that was bugging me. After possession, the controlling entity isn't the mage, it's the spirit. Players are recommended to control the spirit NPC, for gameplay reasons, but it's rather assumed that they're playing the spirit. If a player was intentionally or unintentionally ignoring that, I could see a GM having to step in and explain the concept.

Edit: cause I can't read it seems.
Sorry didn't catch this was channelling, as opposed to straight possession. Please ignore.