Some of the characters I've played with have been what I've mentally dubbed "ninja" without them actually having Ninjutsu as a skill.
Pretty much like REM said. Adepts with unarmed combat, stealth, throwing weapons.. I'd probably give them a high charisma, too. After all, ninja were actors, as well, often having multiple personas that were quite a bit more than simple disguises.
Yes, one could very easily make a ninja without the Ninjutsu.

Remember, for a n1nj4, all you need is good Computers and a hoodie.

~J

I think Full Offense is also useful for Surprise situations. Imagine sneaking up on your target(for surprise and superior position) and using Full Offense on the guy. The loss of the combat pool will greatly affect the ability to capitalise on the -2 for Full Offense. On the other hand, a -1 for superior position and full combat pool will be an advantage difficult ot overcome.

Above normal Sec Guard Body 5, Relevant Combat skill 6, Light security armour with helmet. Melee TN 2. Average success 5

Runner with Killing Hands 6S combined with Full Offense, Relevant Combat skill 6, combat pool 9. Melee TN 3. Average success 11

Damage resistance test against 6D using 5+ dice, very iffy to stage to anything less than a Serious physical.

I'm working on a couple of new MA styles for use in 3rd ed. I may PM some of you for comments on them if you don't mind.

You could always just take one of the existing ninja schools, and how they view themselves, and roll that forward 60 years.

--K

I quite like the idea of reducing defaulting modifiers with martial arts which train in the use of weapon styles. That makes a lot of sense, in addition to the specific weapon skill - you get trained to use the weapon in conjunction with your martial art in real life, only a very few places teach them as seperate disciplines (like the shaolin temples where you train for decades and quite obviously learn lots of different styles).

Yeah, that makes lots of sense. I might even adopt that.

I dug this up from my old notes.... I train now in one of the modern inheritors of the ninja family styles, and I had the pleasure of playing Shadowrun with my teacher for a couple of years. Yes, ninja play Shadowrun. He and I were disgusted by the silly rules for Ninjutsu per CC, so we wrote down the closest rules-based approximate for what was actually passed down for the last 900 years. It came out to be:

Advantage: weapons can be learned for maneuvers
Clubs, Cyber-implant, Edged, Pole Arm/Staff, Whip
Disadvantage: -2 dice for Charging attacks

Blind Fighting, Close Combat, Disorient, Evasion, Herding,
Kick Attack, Throw, Vicious Blow, Zoning

That's technically rules-precise, per CC, and it's as close as we could come within those rules. Maybe a couple people out there might find SR rules written by an actual lineage teacher interesting.

If rules and game-balance were no issue, I think the most accurate way of representing the art is to call it a Knowledge skill that can be used as a Complementary skill to any melee combat skill. That way, it takes a long time to get really good at understanding the principles, AND you still have to learn all the mechanics of how to hit, cut, club, etc. However, once you have the principles really mastered and you've put in the dirt time with the mechanics, you can create results which go far beyond the mechanics. That's the reality of the way the combat methods of ninjutsu manifest.

--K

I like that idea.
You take your combat art, stealth, athletics, some weapons, then take Ninja Training as a background skill. In exchange for the usefulness of taking one background skill which works for 4 or 5 active skills, you get the disadvantage of either Day Job or Hunted.

My problem with ninjutsu isn't how underpowered it is. It is actually fairly decent as a martial art for a sneaky covert ops specialist (although several others are better).

My problem is how they go from a martial art that is widely taught, to this super-secret esoteric training, known only to a few "real" ninja schools (apparently they went on an assassination binge against all of the mall ninjas), where they hunt you down if you take off with their "secrets". Although this forbidden knowledge doesn't actually give you any kind of edge against a street punk who learned karate from Bob's Dojo.

That's easy -- all the mall-ninja rats weren't learning the "real" secrets of the ninja. The real secrets have been handed down within clans, hidden in the darkest alleys, the slimiest sewers as idiots dressed up in hoods and sold "ancient secrets" for 19.95, plus shipping and handling.

For argument's sake, I'm going to assume the above to be true -- to study the historically accurate "ninjitsu", one must have been affiliated with a ninja clan or done some pretty impressive persuading to learn the secrets.

This is not to say that Bob's School of Ninjitsu and Sushi doesn't produce good fighters -- it does. But the "sliding Ninja shadow strike" looks suspiciously like a spinning heel kick with a sliding backfist.

-Siege

True ninjas possess the power to love.

omg I miss sushi so much. Damn you for mentioning it!

No, it doesn't replace the active skills. It's a background skill that basically lets the GM say "OK, that's a pretty Ninja thing to do. You can use your Ninja training background skill as a complementary skill."
So, climbing a rock face? Probably not.
Attempting to climb up a very thin rope without falling or cutting yourself? Yes.
Getting in a showdown in an alley with a handful of gangers? No.
Attempting a one shot kill on a surprised opponent after "appearing" from their shower? Yes.

Thats exactly what I was talking about, its more of a concept/way of life than a "martial art" and the training is not necessarily combat focused. That' something that would be great to incorporate.

Um...

Ya know, it's a spiffy idea. But I'd say no on the "balance factor" alone.

Rifle + Sniper Training
Handgun + Instinctive shooting

And so on...

-Siege

I don't get your logic...

It opens the door to similar arguments for similar skills:

Player 1: "I have the Sniper Background -- it means I spent time learning how to make long distance shots in all sort of conditions. So I get to make this particular shot (from surprise, long range) with my Background: Sniper skill as a Complimentary bonus."

Mechanic:
Sniper Background: May only be used for shots made from surprise while the target is unaware with either a rifle or an assault rifle.

Player 1: "I have the Knowledge skill 'Instinctive Shooting'. I've been trained to point and shoot quickly, so I should be able to use my Handgun skill + Instinctive Shooting as a complimentary bonus."

Mechanic:
Instinctive Shooting: Used with handguns. User cannot use the "Aim" action, laser sights and smartlink bonuses do not apply.

Now, in both scenarios, I think it's perfectly reasonable that these skills should combine. But I also think a lot of GMs will look at that and shudder as they envision the power escalation.

-Siege

But, remember the bonuses that Background skills give, for every 2 successes in a background knowledge skill, you get, what like 1 extra die to roll ont he active skill check?

i also believe it says that this should be kept in close check, or something like that....

As the rules are written now, you can take Background: Rifle, and not have any of those restrictions.

So what knowledge would Background: Rifle impart?

And that it why it doesn't work. Especialy since you get hafl for free and the rest can go up as knowlegde skill (should you so chosse) Major power gain.

Types and makes. Basiclly it allws you to metagame, on that subject.

as I understood it Siege is correct the free knowlegde skill only counts as Knowledge on the particular subject. These free skills are never counted as Active .

GM: "6 successes? It's a Snaiperskaya Vintovka Dragunova, which is Russian for Dragunov Sniper Rifle. It is a 7.62x54mm Rimmed caliber gas operated, short stroke, rotating bolt semi-automatic rifle. It has a 10-round detachable box magazine, weighs 4.31kg empty with the sight and is 1225mm long in total with a 620mm barrel. It was accepted into service by the Russian military in 1963, and from then on until the 2000s, and, in some units, even into the 2020s, every Soviet/Russian infantry squad had one man with the SVD.

This particular version is the Para, with a shorter 590mm barrel, a folding stock and a new flash hider/muzzle brake. It has an effective range of about 600 meters, and seems to still have the original PSO-1 sight. This rifle was apparently manufactured in the Soviet Union, in the area that is currently Yugoslavia. It is impossible to tell which factory it came from without further analysis, the markings do not mention it, but it's probably a Zastava, based on the shade of the finish.

The barrel has been changed at least once. It has been fired a few times in the past weeks, and has not been cleaned afterwards."

Yes, I'm bored, and I have World.Guns.Ru bookmarked.

Wonderful example -- much thanks, Aust.

-Siege

Reminded me once of the amount of shite i had it spit out once cos one of player got 7 success on a perception test.....

So it wouldn't include stuff like windage and drop, which would make a shooter more accurate?

Isn't it battery powered? If it's one of 'em radioactive thingies, it'll probably still be going strong.

On Sunday, I will mostly be angsting at home, which I consider to be very smart.

The knowledge skill is valid -- the application suggested, insofar as I know, hasn't appeared in a canon source.

-Siege

hrm I'm not lying...my books are not here either damn it.

Did you look at the uh newsletter thing?

I'll look around and see if I can find it

*can't find anything describing the skill*

I swear I didn't make it up but I'm not so sure it was in a source book now.

I guess the next question would be: What good is it then?

I didn't say you were lying, although you may be mistaken.

I checked the BBB and yes, the Weapon Specialist does have Physics (Ballistics).

However, I have read and re-read the section regarding Background skills and nothing suggests what you're saying regarding the skill application.

I'll give you another headache -- the Weapon Specialist also has "Body Armor Fabrication". What does that do? Does it replace Armor B/R?

And, no offense to Adam, but the magazine he puts out isn't Canon. Interesting and often insightful, but not Canon.

-Siege

Edit: What good? Not a bit, although a creative player could use it re-constructing a crime scene, evaluating a bullet recovered and so on.

To be fair -- it's not particularly "good" in that it doesn't have an immediately apparent use, although it can be made to be useful.