Indeed... Which was my point. But I do understand Yerameyahu's stance on the issue.

Here are my thoughts. Just because its legal to own and carry, doesnt mean everyone is going to let you in with it.

I.E. it is very legal for me to own AND cary a folding knife under 3.5 inches. I can even carry it concealed without a permit. However, If i were to take it to school it would be confiscated and very much trouble would be had by me. (yeah, this happened many many years ago)

So, just because you can buy it at any gas station, carry it with you most places no problem, doesnt mean the party your trying to get into is going to want you bringing it in.

Or for that matter, the Corp sec isn't going to let you walk into the lobby at their corporate headquarters with that Ares predator, even if you have a permit for it, and neither are they going to let you walk in with ceramic knives in your coat, your boots, and your sleeves. Now if you had someone hack you a particular level of security clearance now....

I still say the R or F code on Availability is for "legality to buy and/or own", but not necessarily "legal to carry around on your person".

Personal opinion. *shrug*

Also, going back to topic, I have a player now who is making excellent use of the Hawkeye positive quality. Between his dicepool, weapon choices, and barrel extension, he doesn't even need vision magnification. The highest his range penalty can get is -3 at extreme range, and 95% of the engagements will be closer than that even with an SMG when you're in an urban environment. And he mostly uses rifles. So the most he'll ever have to deal with usually is a -1 penalty. Now he doesn't even need to waste the simple action needed to take aim to negate range penalties, so he can shoot twice. And before you even start to say Krav Maga, he's not wasting a free action for take aim so he can use it to call shot and up damage. And can always rock the goggles for vision enhancements.

Thats pretty much what we're saying pax

See, the way i look at it is, even if you have a license for it, that doesnt mean it cant cause you problems. You walk down the street with a Ruger Super Warhawk strapped to your waist, and even IF its legal and all your paperwork is in line, you are going to get a) avoided and b) most likely harrased by the authorities (to check your paperwork of course)



Again just look at today. A friend of mine has a concealed carry permit and a permit to openly carry his firearm. He has to date recieved 2 tickets for disturbing the peace for wearing his gun openly downtown. He has also been barred admitance to 3 different resteraunts, because they do not allow guns on their property (except by law enforcement officials, whome they cant really bar)

This particular subthread of discussion started with Post #6, by RelentlessImp, when he made the comment: "So the 'concealable' bit isn't really a point of contention, as none of the enhancements have a Restricted or Forbidden availability, so they're all perfectly legal. Why would you need to conceal something completely legal? "

IOW, it started when someone did assert that "lack of an R or F availability = carry openly with no hassle".

I know bro, we're supportin' ya!

Ambidexterity. I use it on my Pistol wielder to double my ammo capacity. And in those rare circumstances where I can catch a few guards at close range unaware, then i'll split the dicepool since they won't be defending. Trying to do that without ambidexterity is a bit more difficult.

I have to say I agree with the thread opener that knowledge skills are of too little use, generally. Furthermore the corresponding qualities have never been used at any table i attended. Of course YMVV, but that is generally the consensus of people in my area.

That doesn't mean though that i don't like to have them in my game, since they are bought with 'free' points. I've even gone so far to reward 'knowledge karma' seperate from normal karma that can only be used to buy knowledge skills. My experience with this was quite good, so i encourage you too maybe try it out.

Language skills are somewhere in between IMHO, especially for social types who need them to be able to use their skills in the first place. Hence, the Linguist combo of adept power + quality is kinda common here actually.

I do get where that's coming from KarmaInferno and TJ, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying I have a different perspective on what's basically the same position. I think we'd all end up with the same results, but the way you frame the issue seems to matter for player satisfaction. If they start from the idea that the default is no and they can make a case for something ('Tigers have 2 IPs.'), I feel like they're less disappointed if the answer is still 'no'. If, instead, they assume it's okay from the start, they'll *feel* more unfairly treated if the answer is 'no'. This may or may not be similar to when someone says, 'Where should we eat, I like anything,' … but then shoots down all your suggestions.

Hm. I like the idea of bonus 'knowledge karma'.

Ambidexterity is also handy for Riggers and Wheelmen, as when they're driving almost anywhere, they'd be shooting out of the window on their left.

Unless they're in England or Hong Kong.

I thought most island nations drove on the left?

You drive on the right! That's why it's called the RIGHT SIDE!
</bloody ignorant Murican>

This is why I stick to motorcycles.

Charlie Croker: "Just remember this - in this country they drive on the wrong side of the road." - The Italian Job

fortunately the quality "left handed" doesn't have a BP cost...

Okay, so your lefty (or rightie, in U.K. etc) takes off-hand penalties on his Handling tests, instead of his Pistols tests. ^_^

Here's something I saw that I found so abusive that they should do away with it in the next edition.

As a magician, get the Restricted Gear positive quality found in Runner's Companion for 5 BP. Use it to buy a level 4 Power Focus (Availability 20R ((Force x 5)R)) for 100,000 (Force x 25,000 ), spending 20 BP on the money. Spend 4 BP to bond with it.

Pretty cool for 29 BP.

Would spending 10 QP on Aptitude really be so overpriced? 10 BP/QP for the quality, 8 BP for the extra point in Spellcasting, and 6 BP for two more spells for a total of 14 spells to start with. The two extra spells are a nice perk. Or is spending 6 BP instead of 10 Karma a bad deal? That's 18 BP (10 of which are QP), 24 if you count the two extra spells you are allowed to buy.

Magic 6 + Power Focus 4 + Spellcasting 7 = 17.

The remaining 5 QPs could be for Mentor Spirit (19 casting dice for some spells). That pool is large enough that splitting the dice up for two spells in one complex action would be manageable. Specialization may also be in order.

Yup, that's standard practice. I wouldn't say Aptitude is really worth it even then, but maybe.

By itself, a rating: 4 power focus isn't that bad, but the not-well-thought-out rules for splitting dice pools make it bad if you use multicasting. I would recommend that GM's treat the FAQ on dice pools (which has no business changing the RAW) as a house rule, to mitigate the insanity of a mage adding 8 dice from a specialization, a force: 4 power focus, and a mentor spirit bonus to each spell that he/she is multicasting, because by RAW, they are all dice pool modifiers, and get added after the split.

Oh, dear Lord. It does not matter if it is odd or even, your max goes up. Even just means it goes up by two points.
Yes, it is only usefull if the attribute is very usefull (edge) or if you are able to hit the augmented max. (Reaction and move by wire)

Would be true, but SR is using silly math. Meaning it is a 10 percentpoint reduction. For example Alphaware+Biocomatability is now 0.7 (making it effectivly betaware).
Deltaware with Biocomp goes down to 0.4 of the essene costs.

In addition with adapsin you may reduce delta-cyberware down to 0.3 of the original essence costs. Now a move by wire costs only 1.5 Essence... (opposed to 2 without the quality)

Dont Forget Customized Suites for the Rich and Clandestine. Suite + Biocompatibility + Adapsin + Delta Ware = Essence cost x 0.2... So, at that level you are looking at a TON of Cyberware (Effectively 29.999 Essence Points worth)...

As the one using this....

I was going to bring all this up plus more. Hawkeye is incredibly useful for 5BP but it's only useful to certain types of characters. Then again, a lot of qualities are much more useful to certain characters and all but useless to others. I also play a more strategically focused character rather than a tactical player.

Hawkeye brings two benefits to the table.

The first one, and lesser of the two, is +1 visual perception at long distances. I talked with ZeroPoint and we figured the best way to deal with this is to just reduce the penalties for distance perception (-2/-3) to (-1/-2) when they're applied.

The second benefit is that it reduces range increments by one step. So you have no penalty for medium range instead of -1, -1 dice for long range instead of -3, and -3 dice for extreme instead of -6. The gravy is with the long range category. I've always considered a -1 dice penalty for range to be inconsequential. Taking Aim just doesn't provide the benefit to make it worthwhile (unless it's been demonstrated I need that extra die). For most weapons this means your effective engagement ranges double on average.

Now, consider that if I'm not forced into a sniper role I'm running around with a Battle Rifle for my primary weapon, a SMG as a backup, and a heavy pistol if things really go south. Effectively, all my comfortable combat ranges double. The Battle Rifle is just as good up to 500m with Hawkeye as 250m without. The SMG is as good at 80m as 40m without. The pistol is as good at 40m as 20m without.

This quality is also better than Krav Maga in this situation in my opinion. Krav Maga let's you do long and extreme range attacks a 1-2-1-2 pace. I can do long range attacks at a 2-2-2-2 pace and arguably extreme range attacks at the same pace. Though extreme ranges aren't likely to be common for my character and I can probably afford to Take Aim to remove penalties in such case I still may not need to at -3. Also, the benefits of Krav Maga are such that I would actually get the benefit of mostly just the free action take aim. Overall, for 5BP, that makes Hawkeye more valuable to me than Krav Maga.

There's also some other silly things that I'm making a bit more use of (potentially) with Hawkeye. I had augmented strength to aid in physical infiltration so instead of 32m for standard grenades, I can chuck them 48m without losing much. Aerodynamic grenades are at 64m instead of 32m. Effectively, I can chuck an aerodynamic grenade at a -1 penalty than someone can shoot a heavy pistol at -6. I can throw knives far more accurately (assuming just range penalties to accuracy) than ZeroPoint's pistoleer can shoot accurately and my extreme range of throwing knives is just as good as his long range in pistols (penalty and distance). These are all gravy benefits though since I can't really think of any reason why I would use a less effective (damage wise) attack.

It's a pretty combat-y game to be running around with a loadout from Modern Warfare. I agree, though: Hawkeye has some excellent (if specific) use-cases, and scoping all the time is really annoying. It depends if combat it actually taking place at those ranges, if it's sustained firefights, etc.

Slings are my friend. I agree, it's a heavy load out but I can't rely entirely on distance and the fact that there's people between me and the enemy to avoid needing something with a bit more ammo capacity than a battle rifle.

Not sure about it. I think they are not added, thats why I did not mention them. (They are multiplied.)
I guess somebody was awake, when writing those rules.

The in book examples aren't clear either. In some examples they are additive and in others are multiplicative. If you trust the FAQ at all then they are additive and from a math headache standpoint it makes more sense. Otherwise you have things like biocompatability being more effective with differing grades of 'ware.

Indeed... You add them all.
Of course, affording a Delta-Grade Suite is the problem in the first place.
Once you have enough money, almost anything is possible.

Or if it's an attribute you simply expect to use very very often.

Willpower for any spell-slinger, for example. Charisma, for a Face. Agility, for ranged fighters. And so on.

@_Pax._
Would be only one Point. Depends if it is worth it. During BP-Gen possibly.

Okay, so it's only one die. Per roll.

Let's say you're a Human, and you go for Exceptional Attribute (Agility). Then buy that Agility up to 7, along with Pistols 7 (we'll pile Aptitude on here, too). Now, I know what you're thinking: "All that karma / BP wasted on just 2 extra dice".

You know what I'm thinking, though? "Two dice per roll, two rolls per IP, three IPS per combat turn, maybe two combat turns per combat, and averaging one or more combats per session". That's twenty-four extra dice. Yes, spread out over many actions. But it's still .. well, statistically? Eight extra hits per game session. Which are focussed directly on the very part of the game I most want to be successful at.

So, yeah. "If you're going to use it a lot", it's definitely worth it.

For a Face? Exceptional Attribute (Charisma), Aptitude (Negotiate) or Aptitude (Con).

For a shooter? Exceptional Attribute (Agility), a firearms Aptitude.

For a sword-swinger? Exceptional Attribute (Agility), a close combat Aptitude.

And so on. Look at what you're going to use OFTEN, and if you want to hard-cap it ... consider also tossing Exceptional Attribute at it (and if you can swing the BP, Changeling for Metagenic Enhancement).

No, I still say that Aptitude is useless. I mean, first you spend 14 BP instead of 8, and then you have to shell out 70 karma to max the skill out, gaining ONE die. Exceptional Attribute is a whole different ballgame, though. It gives you an extra die on a lot of different things - just look at Agility. Combat, stealth, lockpicking, one extra die to it all. Also, Exceptional Attribute may help characters with racial penalties to attributes (mostly dwarves and trolls).

It's always better to get that improved Attribute Max through Surge though. It raises the minimum as well. It's basically 20 Karma for +1 to one attribute. Very good.

Yes but you also have to choose negative surge qualities, which may not mesh with your character concept.

There are negative Surge qualities that aren't detrimental, e.g. Extravagant Eyes (just use contacts or glasses) or Unusual Hair (ever heard of shaving/hair dye?), so it's pretty much a non-issue.

@_Pax._

So lets thing this through.
You have a human with agility 7(10) and Pistols 7. You have paid 20+10+10+25+4(or even 8 for the skill)= 69-73 BP more than the guy who just got himself agility 5 and Pistols 6.
Now, lets say all attributes for both of you have 3 otherwise, to keep it simple. Thats 160BP on attributes. With your minmax you are even 5BP over the limit, but lets ignore that.
He is just buying himself 2 additional points of reaction for 20BP and two additional points of edge for 20BP. (Still spending around 30BP less than you do)
So, if he really needs those 3 dice, he will be spending one point of edge and he will be getting 5 more dice.
Yes, there are exceptions: A human buying up edge to 8. Or if you really are thinking about hitting the augmented max. For example an elf, getting increased agility. Popping it up to 7 and latter adding mucle toner 4 and Suprathyroid Gland(well, this kind of ware sucks if not houseruled, but anyway you get the picture...).

@Elfenlied
And no sane GM would let that fly. It is like getting the indept quality and repaying your depts and be done with it.

@Xenefungus
In that case I would thinking about combining it. Praise the books, that it is not available for edge..

i actually agree with Elfenlied, there are many negative qualities that are no hindrance at all (surge or not). For starters, just get impaired(Attribute) for two attributes that you donÄt intend to max and be done with it.

I wouldn't be so sure. I've seen some "negative" qualities fly that aren't really detrimental... Mild Addiction (Betel), Sensitive System for Bio-Adepts/TM/Mages, any of the Poor Self Control qualities with high mental stats, Aspected Magician for Mystic Adepts (with intent to be played as Adepts+Counterspelling), Incompetent in certain skills etc.

Point is, as long as a negative quality presents some sort of detriment to your character, it's viable. Only extremely antagonistic DMs would demand flaws that cripple your character concept.

I think striking the right balance there is really a difficult task honestly. No Face should be made to take Uncouth of course. But Incompetence(Heavy Weapons) is just as bad, in another way.

Personally, i prefer those negative qualities that don't have to do with the character concept so much but rather provide some background: Flashbacks, Lost Loved One and the like.

Then again I would rather reward a player that brings his flaws to light, for example a pacifistic character in a potential fire-fight, for good roleplay or dealing with a rough situation for his flaw.

I just noticed that Arsenal is missing in the opening post. I take that as a sign that no one actually counts Martial Arts as Qualities? Wise choice...

They are Qualities, and are counted as such, even at our table.
Seems like a LOT of people forget that you CAN get Qualities in play.

There is a major differance between the effect does not cripple my char and "There is a button I need to press, so I do not have to care anymore".

If you get BP for doors you closed, I do not care.
This would only be an issue if you would get rewarded for leaving this door closed...

I think you also have to consider that a DM that does not target your flaws for fun is not doing his job.

Not all. Some must be taken at character generation, like Aptitude or Exceptional Attribute. In fact, they're probably intended to be taken at character gen and not be maxed at character gen, but later through karma.

Well, there are a VERY few Qualities that are Character-Generation Only (mostly your Awakened/Resonance Qualities, but there are a few others, to be sure), but note that neither Aptitude nor Exceptional Attribute are restricted as such. Yes, in game, they are very expensive to take, but so what... The vast majority of Qualities are available after game start, and then your Quality caps no longer mean anything.

I would have to agree, but only to a point. Repeatedly targeting the same flaw is just mean, but hitting it every now and then....

i.e. Incompetent (Pilot: Ground Craft) , in a pinch i might throw out an easy way out of a tough situation, but the way out is a car but its not something I am constantly going to pick at.

on a side topic, i have a character who has Incompetent with Pistols, Longarms and Automatics (thought about taking it with Heavy Weapons as well but didnt have the neg points left to take) this was done mainly to flavor the char (he is an adept thrower) Several times there has been opportunity for me to use a gun in a way that would have made things much much easier, but alas..i cannot... That doesnt stop me from carrying a Colt Manhunter (with no clip~! ) on me though. It makes people feel better when they can "disarm" me, plus...it makes for great commedy relief when I try to draw it, somehow end up holding it with the barrel pointed at myself, and then say screw it and use it as a missle weapon.

I'd like to relay a conversation with regards to a pair of games my current GM runs (GURPS, not SR).

Game 1 had a plot and the PCs decided to go back in time something like 1000 years and screw with the past.
Game 2 got started as an offshoot attempting to restart the original plot, but also existing in the same timestream (downstream of said alterations)

Keep that in mind.

Javvek is a character in game 1, who--if I understand this correctly--was originally a sentient magical quarterstaff, and is now a gryphon.
Javvek's player plays a gryphon hatchling, Srain, in game 2.
I play Avery who is Srain's father, and she causes him no end of grief (she's got innate magical talent, he doesn't--or at least, doesn't remember any of it--and a propensity to get bored).
Javvek is also Srain's grandfather.

GM just gave me the opportunity to play Srain's mother in game 1, newly hatched, as Javvek has just met his wife, and has gained her as a positive advantage. Javvek's player is waiting for the other shoe to drop, as said wife is way too good for the points he's having to spend, and is on the lookout for the disadvantage that's coming with it.

And it's not quite going to work out as expected. Javvek is expecting one child, he's going to get two, and the GM and I have conspired to break his mind.

During this discussion, Javvek/Srain's player messages me with "You better behave! I've already got two dragon hatchlings that already piss all over my authority."
I reply with, "Oh, don't worry. I promise to be a darling angel."
"No. No you're not. You're only saying that." (Disadvantage warning!)
"No really. I'll behave."

And I will. While he's looking. When his back is turned, I'm going to subvert what little authority he has, and if ever caught doing anything wrong, I've got two, convenient alibis: dragon hatchling 1, and dragon hatchling 2.

The best part? My role is expected to be temporary, as the character must obviously "head off" and go meet Avery.

Except she won't be. Her sibling brother will be. No one knows it yet, but Avery is hermaphroditic. He is the biological father of Srain, but we're going to throw that into question (not that Avery himself is even sure if he's mother or father of Srain, due to the fog that clouds his memory prior to the first session).

Oh, it'll be glorious. Srain's a pain in my butt, but I have plans on how to curtail her disruptive behavior.

Javvek though will never see it coming. He's expecting me to be his Srain. By the time he realizes what's actually going on it will be too late.