Oh yeah, they only have "two" options available alright. Virtually an entire GROUP of (Combat) spells as well as several spells from other groups. Let's go through the entire list, shall we?
Death Touch, Manaball, Manabolt, Powerball (while manifested at the very least), Powerbolt, Slaughter, Slay, Spiritblast, Spiritbolt, Stunball, Stunbolt, Stun Touch, Detect Enemies, Detect (Spirit), Detect Magic, Enhance Aim, Decrease (Attribute), Decrease Reaction, Decrease Reflexes, Agony, Chaff, Chaos, Chaotic World, Confusion, Flak, Flash, Mass Agony, Mass Confusion, Foreboding, Hot Potato (against some), Phantasm, Alter Memory, Control Actions, Control Thoughts, Influence, Mob Mind, Acid Stream, Ball Lightning, Fireball, Flamethrower, Laser, Lightning Bolt, Nova, Smoke Cloud, Steam, Thunderbolt, Thunderclap, Toxic Wave, Clout, Deflect, Net, Shape Earth, Shape Water, Armor, Astral Armor, Astral Barrier, Control Fire, Firewall, Flame Aura, Freeze Water, Glue, Glue Strip, Ice Sheet, Ignite, Limited Armor, Limited Physical Barrier, Mana Static, Mist, Petrify, Physical Barrier, Reinforce, Spell Shield, Spell Wall, and Spirit Barrier.
Sure, a few of those are questionable and I left out a few more questionable ones... but that's hardly a limited selection of options. Whereas the only one a Conjurer truly has against hostile Sorcery is the Magical Guard power (which only gives you a couple of more dice to defend against spells, whereas a Sorcerer can totally obliterate entire groups of spirits with a single spell), available only to Spirits of the Elements (not Nature Spirits or Elementals; but Spirits of the Elements, which are used mostly only by Wujen and occassionally by some Shamans).
Full Version: Conjuring Adepts and Spell Pool?
| QUOTE (Zazen) | ||
It's funny that one potential defense against spells shows up in the very next paragraph, yet you insist that they have none  There are plenty more, too. |
I can only assume you mean an Ally's Spell Defense?
If so, then you're assuming 1 of 2 things.
1) The Ally spirit chooses to use it on the conjurer (this is not a prerequisite without the Conjurer giving it that task)
2) The Conjurer is aware of the need for Spell Defense before the spell is cast.
Other than that, I dont see any other defense a Conjurer has against spells.
Sphynx
DF,
You've covered spells which kill things well, and you've got astral/spirit barrier. The rest is a lot of silliness. Some of them make no sense at all (phantasm? mist? mana static? spell wall?), and most are of only minor usefulness. A conjurer can run through a similar list of every possible use of a spirit in the hopes that it will provide some minor benefit, but such a thing doesn't let us draw useful conclusions.
In fact, you've gone so far as to say that the Confusion spell is effective in battle with a conjurer, but that the more potent Confusion spirit power is not effective in combating a hostile sorcerer! I really don't mean to sound like an asshole, but this is indeed a meretricious reply to my request.
You've covered spells which kill things well, and you've got astral/spirit barrier. The rest is a lot of silliness. Some of them make no sense at all (phantasm? mist? mana static? spell wall?), and most are of only minor usefulness. A conjurer can run through a similar list of every possible use of a spirit in the hopes that it will provide some minor benefit, but such a thing doesn't let us draw useful conclusions.
In fact, you've gone so far as to say that the Confusion spell is effective in battle with a conjurer, but that the more potent Confusion spirit power is not effective in combating a hostile sorcerer! I really don't mean to sound like an asshole, but this is indeed a meretricious reply to my request.
| QUOTE (Sphynx) |
| 1) The Ally spirit chooses to use it on the conjurer (this is not a prerequisite without the Conjurer giving it that task) 2) The Conjurer is aware of the need for Spell Defense before the spell is cast. |
Those are precisely the same things that a sorcerer must decide: to target himself and to use it when appropriate. That's kind of like saying that armor protects you only if you presuppose that you are wearing it
I can fathom no reason why the conjurer would not command his ally to use spell defense at all times if he has gone to the bother of giving it to him the first place. The ally has no spells (assuming that this discussion does not involve house rules), so there's no reason to keep the dice handy for spellcasting tests.
No spells?!? Where do you see that just because a Conjurer has no spells, he can't start the Ally Spirit off with a whole list of spells. If you've got the karma, you can, without knowing a single spell, give your Ally spirit 100 Force6 spells.
Sphynx
Sphynx
You have to learn the spell for them. Learning a spell requires you to roll your sorcery skill, and conjurers can't do that.
| QUOTE (Zazen @ Nov 12 2003, 03:21 PM) |
| You've covered spells which kill things well, and you've got astral/spirit barrier. The rest is a lot of silliness. Some of them make no sense at all (phantasm? mist? mana static? spell wall?), and most are of only minor usefulness. A conjurer can run through a similar list of every possible use of a spirit in the hopes that it will provide some minor benefit, but such a thing doesn't let us draw useful conclusions. |
Phantasm can be used to fool and manipulate spirits just as easily as it can be used to fool and manipulate other sentient beings. Mist can limit spirits just as easily as they can limit other living beings. Mana Static creates a Background Count that functions against spirit powers just as much as it does other magical effects. Spell Wall provides a valid defense against some spirit powers (such as a fire elementals Flamethower). And as Tisoz mentions below, they can even use Sorcery directly against a spirit in hand-to-hand combat.
I said that Sorcerers have *AMPLE* options available to *DIRECTLY* help them *AGAINST* spirits. Conjurers, on the other hand, have only *ONE* option to *DIRECTLY* help them against spells, and that's Magical Guard, which is *ONLY* available to them through a specific subset of spirits, of which *MOST* conjurers cannot summon.
| QUOTE |
| In fact, you've gone so far as to say that the Confusion spell is effective in battle with a conjurer, but that the more potent Confusion spirit power is not effective in combating a hostile sorcerer! I really don't mean to sound like an asshole, but this is indeed a meretricious reply to my request. |
I said nothing about battling a Conjurer. A simple gun can be used against a Conjurer just as easily as it is against a Sorcerer. But a Sorcerer can use Confusion to befuddle spirits, whereas a Conjurer demanding the service of a spirit's Confusion power *CANNOT* use that service to directly befuddle, interupt, hinder, or stop a spell (only the person casting the spell, not that it's any use against spell effects already in effect or the like). Accident might be a valid means, too, but even that is hardly comparable to all the options a Sorcerer has vs. conjurered spirits.
| QUOTE (Zazen) |
| You have to learn the spell for them. Learning a spell requires you to roll your sorcery skill, and conjurers can't do that. |
Which is a pretty weak argument beyond a strict interpretation of the written word. The context of the rule is that Conjurers cannot use Sorcery as a form of magic; they cannot cast spellls, use spell defense, use ritual sorcery, or any other active use of the skill. The context of learning a spell for a spirit is that the Conjurer wouldn't actually be learning the spell himself, only teaching the formula to the spirit (which anyone should be able to do; anyone knowledgeable in magic can read and create a spell formula, but only those capable of using Sorcery could actually cast the spell). The mechanics simply use Sorcery for that particular activity to save some time and Karma in lieu of another skill for magicians. There's a lot of silliness involved with how they handle it, such as a burn-out (Magic 0) having to spontaneously convert their Sorcery and Conjuring skills to Knowledge Skills or some such, which are *entirely* different skills involving *entirely* different knowledge and information than the Active Skills.
But to each their own. You've already made it abundantly clear about which side of the fence you're on, so no big deal. Everyone's entitlted to their view of things.
| QUOTE (Zazen) |
| I can think of only two ways for a sorcerer to deal with spirits (combat spells and the astral barrier spell), <snip> |
The sorcerer could engage it in combat and gets to use his sorcery skill as a melee skill. Or he could do what even mundanes could do, shoot it with capsule rounds filled with an element, might even get lucky and have it do extra elemental damage.
Conjurors are limited in the areas of spell defense and initiative, but I don't see how that's a big problem. As far as spell defense, I agree that Magical Guard should probably be a more common power, but I see no real reason why conjurors should have any extra ability to resist spells, considering that they can't learn them, cast them, etc. Why shouldn't they be as defenseless as any mundane? Sorcerers have options that they can use against spirits, but in most cases they are as vulnerable to spirit powers such as alienation or accident as a mundane; so, it's not a double standard. The natural initiative boost is another area where I have to ask: why should they have one? Sorcerers can cast spells on themselves. Adepts can channel magical energy through their bodies to enhance their speed. What, about conjuring, lends itself to giving the conjuror an initiative boost?
If you play a conjuror, you are playing a limited character. It takes more work to play to their advantages, but they do have some - only 18 build points cost, only one really essential magical skill to improve, they make great faces, etc.
If you play a conjuror, you are playing a limited character. It takes more work to play to their advantages, but they do have some - only 18 build points cost, only one really essential magical skill to improve, they make great faces, etc.
| QUOTE (Zazen) |
| You have to learn the spell for them. Learning a spell requires you to roll your sorcery skill, and conjurers can't do that. |
I said at Ally Creation, not after. No, Conjurers do NOT need to roll Sorcery to teach an Ally spells at Creation. They ONLY need to allocate karma. This is ONLY true at Ally Creation though. However, at that stage, you can teach the ally every single spell in the book at Force 6 if you have the karma, without knowing a single spell. (why am I repeating myself again, do you not read the whole post?)
Sphynx
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Phantasm can be used to fool and manipulate spirits just as easily as it can be used to fool and manipulate other sentient beings. |
Maybe if your illusions all have "CAUTION: MAGIC SPELL" written prominently on them in glowing green ink. A spirit easily sees that it's a spell if it looks, or if you try to mimic anything that is living. A spirit is far less susceptible to this spell than most beings.
The rest of the stuff you "justified" are just things which change the field of battle. A spirit might also create mist or some other LOS-hindering effect, yet you don't consider that to be an effective anti-sorcery measure. The reason I mentioned those in particular is because those spells hinder the spellcaster just as much as the spirit. Spell wall will hinder quite a bit more so.
And for gods sake man, you included Flak and Chaff! Saying that you "left out a few questionable ones" is generous, the only thing I see missing from this list is the kitchen sink.
| QUOTE |
| But a Sorcerer can use Confusion to befuddle spirits, whereas a Conjurer demanding the service of a spirit's Confusion power *CANNOT* use that service to directly befuddle, interupt, hinder, or stop a spell (only the person casting the spell, not that it's any use against spell effects already in effect or the like). |
But a spirit can use Confusion to befuddle spellcasters, whereas a sorcerer using a Confusion spell *CANNOT* use that spell to directly befuddle, interupt, hinder, or stop a spirit power (only the spirit using the power, not that it's any use to powers already in effect or the like).
I'm afraid I must ask you to go into more detail about why the spell is viable but the power is not.
| QUOTE (Sphynx) | ||
I said at Ally Creation, not after. No, Conjurers do NOT need to roll Sorcery to teach an Ally spells at Creation. |
"An ally with sorcery power automatically recieves one spell, randomly determined from the character's selection, for free. Additional spells can be purchased during creation by paying karma equal to the spells force."
To say that these additional spells do not come from the characters existing spell selection is to be ridiculous.
You just read the quote yourself.... you tell me where it says anything about limiting it to the character's list of spells. Rediculous or not, that's Canon. Sorry bub.
Sphynx
Sphynx
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) | ||
Which is a pretty weak argument beyond a strict interpretation of the written word. |
The notion of someone potentially becoming "world class" at a skill they have never used is a far weaker one in my opinion, akin to letting an armless man become an expert tennis player despite him lacking any possible way to train. If you let conjurers learn the active skill of sorcery, you've already abandoned reason in favor of strict interpretation.
You guys must be reading a strange version of 3rd edition. Because I distinctly remember that at character creation, you can spend Spell Points to bond foci, and to purchase spirits. Check the main book at character creation.
Specifications are that you can buy a spirit, with one Spell Point used for each point of Force of the spirit. Also, one Spell Point buys one service from that spirit. For example, a hermetic conjurer adept could, at creation, buy a Force 6 fire elemental with 6 services, a Force 4 earth elemental with 3 services, and a Force 2 air elemental with 1 service. (Note that the rules also put a blanket limitation on all magic stuff; no more than Force 6 for any spell, spirit, or foci, and no more than 6 services from a spirit.)
I'll check up on the rules for spell defense; I'm betting that there's something else there you guys overlooked. But for now, imagine using Shadowrun Companion's Build system to field a conjurer... with a small army of spirits.
Specifications are that you can buy a spirit, with one Spell Point used for each point of Force of the spirit. Also, one Spell Point buys one service from that spirit. For example, a hermetic conjurer adept could, at creation, buy a Force 6 fire elemental with 6 services, a Force 4 earth elemental with 3 services, and a Force 2 air elemental with 1 service. (Note that the rules also put a blanket limitation on all magic stuff; no more than Force 6 for any spell, spirit, or foci, and no more than 6 services from a spirit.)
I'll check up on the rules for spell defense; I'm betting that there's something else there you guys overlooked. But for now, imagine using Shadowrun Companion's Build system to field a conjurer... with a small army of spirits.
| QUOTE (Zazen @ Nov 13 2003, 10:57 AM) | ||||
The notion of someone potentially becoming "world class" at a skill they have never used is a far weaker one in my opinion, akin to letting an armless man become an expert tennis player despite him lacking any possible way to train. If you let conjurers learn the active skill of sorcery, you've already abandoned reason in favor of strict interpretation. |
First, we've gone over this before. "World Class" is rating 8+, not 6 (which is the suggested Sorcery level here.
Secondly, how can you suggest that Ally's need to learn (at Ally Creation) spells limited to the summoner? Read page 48 under Spell Design, where a "mundane" can create a spell (what's their Sorcery at? 0?). No, at Ally Creation, you're creating a 'Design Formula', not teaching anything, you're going to summon forth a spirit that basically has a spell-design written into it.
The idea that a mundane can create/teach a spell that he could never cast is as for from 'reason in flavor' as a Conjurer with extensive spell knowledge and a Sorcery skill being able to write in spells to the Design Formula of his ally Spirit.
Sphynx
| QUOTE (Zazen @ Nov 13 2003, 02:34 AM) |
| Maybe if your illusions all have "CAUTION: MAGIC SPELL" written prominently on them in glowing green ink. A spirit easily sees that it's a spell if it looks, or if you try to mimic anything that is living. A spirit is far less susceptible to this spell than most beings. |
Whether they know it's an illusion or not is beside the point; those illusions can still be used to hide or otherwise confuse spirits simply because illusions aren't transparent. That illusion of a maze is still going to function as a maze for a spirit even if the walls are throbbing with a "CAUTION: MAGIC SPELL" glow.
| QUOTE |
| The rest of the stuff you "justified" are just things which change the field of battle. A spirit might also create mist or some other LOS-hindering effect, yet you don't consider that to be an effective anti-sorcery measure. The reason I mentioned those in particular is because those spells hinder the spellcaster just as much as the spirit. Spell wall will hinder quite a bit more so. |
Apparently you're simply not getting the main gist of what I'm saying, which I'm guessing is simply because you just like to argue with me. Sorcerers have a shitload of spells available which can DIRECTLY destroy, interfer, befuddle, or otherwise manipulate the END RESULT the use of the CONJURING skill. That being SPIRITS. So what if the spell can be used a hundred different ways in a hundred different situations? That just proves the Sorcerer's superiority in both function and diversity.
Conjurers, on the other hand, have only ONE option availble to DIRECTLY destroy, interfer, befuddle, or otherwise manipulate the END RESULT of the use of the SORCERY skill... and, again, that's only Wujens and the rare shaman capable of summoning a spirit of the elements. And, again, it's a SPECIALIZED spirit power that ONLY works against spells, and it's a passive defense at that. Accident is another possibility, albeit very iffy. Regardless, both options are passive; they have to be activated BEFORE they can have a CHANCE to affect the end result of Sorcery (i.e., spells).
Example: Sam the Sorcerer is walking down Main Street with Carl the Conjurer decides to unleash all six of his spirits at Sam just because he's having a bad hair day. Sam, upon seeing the unexpected spirits barrelling down on him, simply sighs and unleashes a deadly Spiritblast spell, wiping out all six in one fell swoop.
If their positions were reversed and it was Sam attacking Carl because he was wearing a purple shirt and he hates purple, Carl would be up shit creek against that Stunbolt Sam just unleashed unless he already had a great form spirit of the elements around with a Magical Guard power activated, or some other nature spirit with Accident activated (even though both would be kind of silly since he'd just be walking down Main Street to get buy a loaf of bread at the market).
| QUOTE |
| And for gods sake man, you included Flak and Chaff! Saying that you "left out a few questionable ones" is generous, the only thing I see missing from this list is the kitchen sink. |
For exactly the reasons mentioned above.
| QUOTE |
| I'm afraid I must ask you to go into more detail about why the spell is viable but the power is not. |
See the second response in this post.
Funk, a few points I think you're missing in your little crusade...
First, we're not talking about spells vs. spirits directly. True, the metaphysical entity "the spell" is all but indefensible against if you're not planning against it. If that's what you're talking about, though, why not just go right to the trump card, the mundane with a sniper rifle? If a conjurer is halfassed prepared, he can have a spirit of the elements or elemental keep an eye out for him, and most conjurer fans admit that a little more could be done here. This is hardly the extreme unbalance you seem to see, though.
Second, this isn't spell vs. spirit, it's conjurer vs. summoner. Sure, the prepared sorcerer could manaball all the conjurer's spirits, if said conjurer is foolish and inept. However, a prepared conjurer could have a bevy of spirits materialze out of the astral right next to the unawares sorcerer and ambush him, and again all that proves is that an ambush is a killer tactic. The conjurer has several tactical advantages that the sorcerer doesn't, the sorcerer has several advantages the conjurer doesn't.
(That said, I will admit that most players don't play well with spirits. That's more of a talent issue than a game balance one, though.)
Third, you seem to be speaking of some idealistic super-characters. True, given infinite resources a sorcerer will badly thrash a conjurer, but over the usual character power scales the conjurer will redirect the resources the sorcerer has to devote to his spells (and the occasional sustaining focus/quickening*) into other areas. Actually learning and keeping active all the spells you're thinking about takes a lot of karma, and I'm not so keen on passing out torches and pitchforks if the cracks start to show at the upper levels of the system.
And finally, tying into points two and three, the conjurer is much more versatile and skilled in pursuits outside of their specialty. A sorcerer versus a conjurer on a manaline cage match, with all the resources they need at their disposal, of course smart money's on the sorcerer. In your average game, the sorcerer will soon start to feel the effects of drain starting to cut into his capabilities, not to mention penalties for sustaining spells, and watch the problems rack up if there's background count. Meanwhile, the shamanic conjurer has far fewer issues with drain (although granted he's kind of screwed if he doesn't have invoking and he's in the wrong area), and the hermetic conjurer has practically no drain issues the whole run. Both of them have put their karma into more mundane pursuits, so they can handle when the mojo starts to wear thin a little better. So while I'll still grant that conjurers are a little weaker than sorcerers, it's not as solidly broken as you claim.
*I specifically said sustaining focus/quickening because I see these as side-costs to the sorcerer. I know conjurers have spirit foci to work with. I see those as analogues of spell foci. Sustaining issues are an extra "hidden" cost to sorcery that conjurers don't have to match.
First, we're not talking about spells vs. spirits directly. True, the metaphysical entity "the spell" is all but indefensible against if you're not planning against it. If that's what you're talking about, though, why not just go right to the trump card, the mundane with a sniper rifle? If a conjurer is halfassed prepared, he can have a spirit of the elements or elemental keep an eye out for him, and most conjurer fans admit that a little more could be done here. This is hardly the extreme unbalance you seem to see, though.
Second, this isn't spell vs. spirit, it's conjurer vs. summoner. Sure, the prepared sorcerer could manaball all the conjurer's spirits, if said conjurer is foolish and inept. However, a prepared conjurer could have a bevy of spirits materialze out of the astral right next to the unawares sorcerer and ambush him, and again all that proves is that an ambush is a killer tactic. The conjurer has several tactical advantages that the sorcerer doesn't, the sorcerer has several advantages the conjurer doesn't.
(That said, I will admit that most players don't play well with spirits. That's more of a talent issue than a game balance one, though.)
Third, you seem to be speaking of some idealistic super-characters. True, given infinite resources a sorcerer will badly thrash a conjurer, but over the usual character power scales the conjurer will redirect the resources the sorcerer has to devote to his spells (and the occasional sustaining focus/quickening*) into other areas. Actually learning and keeping active all the spells you're thinking about takes a lot of karma, and I'm not so keen on passing out torches and pitchforks if the cracks start to show at the upper levels of the system.
And finally, tying into points two and three, the conjurer is much more versatile and skilled in pursuits outside of their specialty. A sorcerer versus a conjurer on a manaline cage match, with all the resources they need at their disposal, of course smart money's on the sorcerer. In your average game, the sorcerer will soon start to feel the effects of drain starting to cut into his capabilities, not to mention penalties for sustaining spells, and watch the problems rack up if there's background count. Meanwhile, the shamanic conjurer has far fewer issues with drain (although granted he's kind of screwed if he doesn't have invoking and he's in the wrong area), and the hermetic conjurer has practically no drain issues the whole run. Both of them have put their karma into more mundane pursuits, so they can handle when the mojo starts to wear thin a little better. So while I'll still grant that conjurers are a little weaker than sorcerers, it's not as solidly broken as you claim.
*I specifically said sustaining focus/quickening because I see these as side-costs to the sorcerer. I know conjurers have spirit foci to work with. I see those as analogues of spell foci. Sustaining issues are an extra "hidden" cost to sorcery that conjurers don't have to match.
| QUOTE (Anymage @ Nov 13 2003, 08:26 PM) |
| First, we're not talking about spells vs. spirits directly. True, the metaphysical entity "the spell" is all but indefensible against if you're not planning against it. If that's what you're talking about, though, why not just go right to the trump card, the mundane with a sniper rifle? If a conjurer is halfassed prepared, he can have a spirit of the elements or elemental keep an eye out for him, and most conjurer fans admit that a little more could be done here. This is hardly the extreme unbalance you seem to see, though. |
Well, first of all, I happen to be one of those fans of the Conjurer. That doesn't mean that I don't see the pitfalls of the character type. As I've said numerous times, yes, Conjurers obviously have their own perks and unique abilities. But, as I've also said numerous times, so does every other Awakened character type. But unlike those other character types, the Conjurer is short changed in three significant areas whereas the other character types don't have even a remotely similar shortchanging.
One of their primary aspects (Spirits, Ally Spirits in particular) are horribly crippled, whereas Sorcerers have none of their primary aspects (Spells) crippled. They have no complimentary and natural means of augmenting their Reaction/Initiative, which is extremely important from a metagaming point of view, wheras Sorcerers do. And, lastly, they have no commonly available means to protect themselves or others from their polar-opposite's primary aspect (Spells) whereas Sorcerers have numerous means of dealing with their polar-opposite's primary aspect (Spirits). And on top of that, Conjurers have a finite selection of spirits that they can conjure whereas Sorcerers have an unlimited selection of spells to choose from.
Yes, Conjurers can summon spirits. But Sorcerers can cast spells. Yes, Conjurers have fewer things to spend their Spell Points on and can trade them in for Build Points (a whopping 7 Build Points in exchange for 875,000 nuyen in Spell Points). But Sorcerers have LOTS to spend their Spell Points on INCLUDING having the luxury to do exactly same thing as the Conjurer, either in full or in part. Yes, Conjurers can spend Karma to create a (crippled) Ally Spirit. But Sorcerers can continue to buy more and more Spells. Yes, Conjurers can buy cyberware and bioware and choose or not choose to offset the Magic Loss with geas. But so can Sorcerers.
So yes, Conjurers have their perks, but so do Sorcerers. Yet (and I know I've repeated myself countless times in this thread already but it just seems to be slipping past a few of your heads), they still have numerous and important penalties that Sorcerers do not have.
| QUOTE |
| Second, this isn't spell vs. spirit, it's conjurer vs. summoner. Sure, the prepared sorcerer could manaball all the conjurer's spirits, if said conjurer is foolish and inept. However, a prepared conjurer could have a bevy of spirits materialze out of the astral right next to the unawares sorcerer and ambush him, and again all that proves is that an ambush is a killer tactic. The conjurer has several tactical advantages that the sorcerer doesn't, the sorcerer has several advantages the conjurer doesn't. |
No, that's the argument a few of you are trying to make to bypass the real problem. All of your tactics are pediantic. As you pointed out, a simple mundane sniper can end the existance of both characters without a problem, just as a Sorcerer sniper can do to a Conjurer or a Conjurer sniper can do to a Sorcerer. But that doesn't excuse or account for the crippling the Conjurer suffers in other ways.
And, once again, while a Conjurer can have his spirits ambush a Sorcerer, the Sorcere needs merely cast one of COUNTLESS spells in his arsenal to take out the entire group in one fell swoop. The Conjurer has no such luxury against a Sorcerer's spell. None whatsoever. Even Magical Guard requires awareness and preparation for an attack. And since the Sorcerer can easily have Increased Reflexes 3, chances are he's going to be going first during the ambush anyway unless he totally botches his Surprise Test. And even then, Friends in Melee doesn't affect a Sorcery test unless he's using it as a melee skill against the spirits (which just proves how many different defenses Sorcerers have against spirits).
| QUOTE |
| Third, you seem to be speaking of some idealistic super-characters. True, given infinite resources a sorcerer will badly thrash a conjurer, but over the usual character power scales the conjurer will redirect the resources the sorcerer has to devote to his spells (and the occasional sustaining focus/quickening*) into other areas. Actually learning and keeping active all the spells you're thinking about takes a lot of karma, and I'm not so keen on passing out torches and pitchforks if the cracks start to show at the upper levels of the system. |
Idealistic super characters? Both of the sample magician archetypes in SR3 have spells that will fare well against spirits. The troll Combat Mage has Manaball, Manabolt, and Stunbolt. The elven Street Mage has Manabolt. And they're full magicians who only had 25 Spell Points to begin with, whereas a Sorcerer has at least 10 points more.
Most of the people in this thread trying to disprove some of my comments seem to think the major perk of the Conjurer is exchanging those 35 Spell Points (which, again, is an 875,000 nuyen value) for 7 Build Points. At best that's going to net you 350,000 in nuyen, +3 Attribute points, or +7 Skill Points. Sure, that's nice for gaining a few implants (which the Sorcerer can still do on his own) or maybe another skill or two, but that hardly compensates for for those 35 points worth of spells the Sorcerer now has to use against all of your spirits. And if they only spend 5-6 of those points on Stunball, they not only have an all-purpose spirit slayer with minimal drain, but they can continue to use that same spell against numerous other threats.
| QUOTE |
| And finally, tying into points two and three, the conjurer is much more versatile and skilled in pursuits outside of their specialty. A sorcerer versus a conjurer on a manaline cage match, with all the resources they need at their disposal, of course smart money's on the sorcerer. In your average game, the sorcerer will soon start to feel the effects of drain starting to cut into his capabilities, not to mention penalties for sustaining spells, and watch the problems rack up if there's background count. Meanwhile, the shamanic conjurer has far fewer issues with drain (although granted he's kind of screwed if he doesn't have invoking and he's in the wrong area), and the hermetic conjurer has practically no drain issues the whole run. Both of them have put their karma into more mundane pursuits, so they can handle when the mojo starts to wear thin a little better. So while I'll still grant that conjurers are a little weaker than sorcerers, it's not as solidly broken as you claim. |
Unless you're talking about a Hermetic Conjurer (who has problems all his own; kill his Elementals with a Spiritblast spell and his primary ability is all but useless for the rest of the run save for watchers and banishing), Conjurers do have to worry about Drain quite a bit. Especially those using Channeling (which is supposed to be one of their perks for compensating for the Initiative bit), as they have to resist Deadly drain each and every time they use that Spell Point-expensive ability. And, unlike the Sorcerer who can use Spell Pool and Sorcery to help resist against Drain, the Conjurer has only their Charisma score.
And I never stated that Conjurers were broken. I said they suffer two to three major pitfalls that other similar characters don't have, and compensating for those pitfalls is a good idea.
In fact, if their pitfalls are as minor as you and the others are claiming; then what's the problem? Let their Ally Spirits learn spells. Let all of their spirits have Magical Defense and another power to augment their reflexes. After all, they're not really suffering without them so why bother denying them at all?
I think that Anymage has stumbled on the central focus in the main difference between Conjurers and Sorcerors.
Sure. A sorceror can throw a hojillion spells, one for every occasion. They also get spell defense. But all that stuff costs you, chummer, in Karma, the sorceror's worst foe, because you either learn magic, learn skills, or bond foci. There's never, ever enough Karma to make a sorceror happy; they gobble it up like candy and ask "More, please?".
In addition, every time a sorceror throws their juju, they risk Drain. Oh, I'm sure there's some nifty things to help those resist rolls along. And in a one-on-one confrontation, I'm sure it's enough. But when you start throwing those Serious and Deadly damage spells, healing wounds for your friends, and trying to fend off enemy magic, you start feeling it. When a Lone Star RRT with a mage and two spirits rolls in, that sorceror better have some good help on hand, or he's toast.
But what about conjurers, you say? They can't even fend off magic, much less do anything.
How foolish, young mortal. Let me enlighten you.
The conjurer does all his casting beforehand, in the safety of the team's safehouse. He spends a truckload of nuyen for ritual materials, then spends a few days whipping up some nice elementals or nature spirits. Now, one-on-one battle with a spirit isn't a big deal.
Have you fought three or four Force 4 fire elementals? What about two Force 6 storm spirits? Not fun, is it?
Oh, there's those awful spells that hurt spirits. But see, that's where things get tricky. A smart conjurer picks spirits for all occasions; some to manifest and turn people into smoking goo, and some to stay astral and use powers from the safety of astral space.
If someone uses astral perception or projection to fight said spirits, they have a new problem, unless they have some astral backup themselves: they are now one person on the team against the whole spirit army the conjurer was carrying with him. And that person gets no help from the team, unless they, too, can astrally perceive/project.
And who in the blue hell said a conjurer was a front-line person, anyway? If they are smart, they're sitting in the back, using astral perception to monitor things and give the team intel by telling them what they see there. If three Lone Star mages show up, time to use those spirits to cover your retreat. So sad they died, but as long as there's nuyen, there's always more to be had.
Oh, by the way, that sorceror who spends a hojillion Karma to be the spell-slinger of the year isn't going to initiate nearly as fast as that conjurer. Why?
Because the sorceror can either initiate, or learn stuff. The conjurer can initiate, and conjure as much as he wants, because he already knows how to conjure all the spirits he wants. To conjure a bigger spirit, he doesn't have relearn things like a sorceror; his initiation makes it happen, along with giving him metamagic, of course.
I'd say that in the long run, two dozen spirits of various types is better than a single sorceror, even if that one initiate sorceror can just toast a single Force 10 spirit. Too bad that initiate conjurer has 23 more just like it.
Now, the conjurer is a team animal; on his own, he's dog chow. But with a group to keep him alive, he can end up being the team's best asset.
What's the point of all this rambling? There isn't one. Sorcerors and conjurers are pretty even. Sorcerors can learn bunchs of spells for various purposes, and defend the team against magic. Conjurers can make an army of spirits that only require time and effort, not Karma, and can (potentially) initiate faster.
This argument is pointless. I could make up a guy with no magic, no cyber, nothing, who could wipe the floor with a character loaded out with cyberware and gadgets, but it's a moot point, because I could also make a cybermonkey who was a metallic god of destruction and mayhem.
Guys, this whole thing is strictly a matter of opinion. Unless we can sit at a physical table and make up a beginning sorceror and conjurer, and duke it out, there's nothing that can be proven with ideas, theories, and hypothesis here.
Sure. A sorceror can throw a hojillion spells, one for every occasion. They also get spell defense. But all that stuff costs you, chummer, in Karma, the sorceror's worst foe, because you either learn magic, learn skills, or bond foci. There's never, ever enough Karma to make a sorceror happy; they gobble it up like candy and ask "More, please?".
In addition, every time a sorceror throws their juju, they risk Drain. Oh, I'm sure there's some nifty things to help those resist rolls along. And in a one-on-one confrontation, I'm sure it's enough. But when you start throwing those Serious and Deadly damage spells, healing wounds for your friends, and trying to fend off enemy magic, you start feeling it. When a Lone Star RRT with a mage and two spirits rolls in, that sorceror better have some good help on hand, or he's toast.
But what about conjurers, you say? They can't even fend off magic, much less do anything.
How foolish, young mortal. Let me enlighten you.
The conjurer does all his casting beforehand, in the safety of the team's safehouse. He spends a truckload of nuyen for ritual materials, then spends a few days whipping up some nice elementals or nature spirits. Now, one-on-one battle with a spirit isn't a big deal.
Have you fought three or four Force 4 fire elementals? What about two Force 6 storm spirits? Not fun, is it?
Oh, there's those awful spells that hurt spirits. But see, that's where things get tricky. A smart conjurer picks spirits for all occasions; some to manifest and turn people into smoking goo, and some to stay astral and use powers from the safety of astral space.
If someone uses astral perception or projection to fight said spirits, they have a new problem, unless they have some astral backup themselves: they are now one person on the team against the whole spirit army the conjurer was carrying with him. And that person gets no help from the team, unless they, too, can astrally perceive/project.
And who in the blue hell said a conjurer was a front-line person, anyway? If they are smart, they're sitting in the back, using astral perception to monitor things and give the team intel by telling them what they see there. If three Lone Star mages show up, time to use those spirits to cover your retreat. So sad they died, but as long as there's nuyen, there's always more to be had.
Oh, by the way, that sorceror who spends a hojillion Karma to be the spell-slinger of the year isn't going to initiate nearly as fast as that conjurer. Why?
Because the sorceror can either initiate, or learn stuff. The conjurer can initiate, and conjure as much as he wants, because he already knows how to conjure all the spirits he wants. To conjure a bigger spirit, he doesn't have relearn things like a sorceror; his initiation makes it happen, along with giving him metamagic, of course.
I'd say that in the long run, two dozen spirits of various types is better than a single sorceror, even if that one initiate sorceror can just toast a single Force 10 spirit. Too bad that initiate conjurer has 23 more just like it.
Now, the conjurer is a team animal; on his own, he's dog chow. But with a group to keep him alive, he can end up being the team's best asset.
What's the point of all this rambling? There isn't one. Sorcerors and conjurers are pretty even. Sorcerors can learn bunchs of spells for various purposes, and defend the team against magic. Conjurers can make an army of spirits that only require time and effort, not Karma, and can (potentially) initiate faster.
This argument is pointless. I could make up a guy with no magic, no cyber, nothing, who could wipe the floor with a character loaded out with cyberware and gadgets, but it's a moot point, because I could also make a cybermonkey who was a metallic god of destruction and mayhem.
Guys, this whole thing is strictly a matter of opinion. Unless we can sit at a physical table and make up a beginning sorceror and conjurer, and duke it out, there's nothing that can be proven with ideas, theories, and hypothesis here.
I thought the limit for the number of summoned spirits was equel to charisma? If you allow an equel number of watcher spirits, that equates to a charisma of 12! IIRC only available to a maxxed out elf at an additional minimum karma cost of 46 points.
Since we're being unrealistic, let the sorcerer get a quickened tattoo for spirit armor at force 23 for his 46 karma.
Since we're being unrealistic, let the sorcerer get a quickened tattoo for spirit armor at force 23 for his 46 karma.
Watchers are counted separately. A Charisma 6 Hermetic conjurer character can have 6 watchers and 6 elementals active at one time.
Kanada is right Tisoz.
And I'm being sarcastic. Though I'm sure some munchkin around here might find the right cracks in the system to exploit to make that platoon of spirits. What an idea.
But seriously, an initiated conjurer with six Force 10 elementals probably isn't someone you should dismiss so easily...
But seriously, an initiated conjurer with six Force 10 elementals probably isn't someone you should dismiss so easily...
| QUOTE |
| Whether they know it's an illusion or not is beside the point; those illusions can still be used to hide or otherwise confuse spirits simply because illusions aren't transparent. That illusion of a maze is still going to function as a maze for a spirit even if the walls are throbbing with a "CAUTION: MAGIC SPELL" glow. |
So we've gone from "fool and manipulate" to not fooling them at all. Interesting transition. Ok.
So it'll function as a maze whose walls can be walked through with ease, and which will hinder the sorcerer more than the spirit. If that's your idea of a viable option, then I guess I'm asking the wrong person to help me.
| QUOTE |
| Apparently you're simply not getting the main gist of what I'm saying, which I'm guessing is simply because you just like to argue with me. Sorcerers have a shitload of spells available which can DIRECTLY destroy, interfer, befuddle, or otherwise manipulate the END RESULT the use of the CONJURING skill. That being SPIRITS. |
This seems to be the source of our disagreement. A spirit is not the end result of conjuring; a conjurer who only created spirits would get nowhere. He commands them. THAT is the end result of conjuring: the abilities and powers of a spirit put to some end. In this game, that's called a service.
| QUOTE |
| Example: Sam the Sorcerer is walking down Main Street with Carl the Conjurer decides to unleash all six of his spirits at Sam just because he's having a bad hair day. Sam, upon seeing the unexpected spirits barrelling down on him, simply sighs and unleashes a deadly Spiritblast spell, wiping out all six in one fell swoop. |
This is a good example of what I mean. You let Sam see the spirits "barrelling down on him" and give him the first chance to act, yet deny Carl the same courtesy. Why aren't the spirits immediately using their powers just the same as Sam would use his spells? The same reason that Sam gets to use Confusion first, and everything else first, which is No Reason
| QUOTE | ||
For exactly the reasons mentioned above. |
Ok, I'll bite. How is it that Flak and Chaff do a damn thing against spirits?
I want to reiterate something I said earlier, which is that I've made no conclusions about which is more powerful, diverse, or efficient. I just want to know why you think that it is the sorcerer before I make up my mind. So far, I can't get a reasonable answer out of you. It's maddening.
So please, just forget that slap-happy list and start over with something a little more practical. If you don't want to, then forget it entirely and let someone answer who is less passionate about proving himself right.
| QUOTE |
| This is a good example of what I mean. You let Sam see the spirits "barrelling down on him" and give him the first chance to act, yet deny Carl the same courtesy. Why aren't the spirits immediately using their powers just the same as Sam would use his spells? The same reason that Sam gets to use Confusion first, and everything else first, which is No Reason |
Sam has natural Initiative boosts within his field. Carl doesn't without having to go the cyberware route (which Sam could do as well, and still have options to beat Carl thanks to other spells, such as Increase Reaction or even Increase (Cybered) Attribute). And since I'm referring to "pure" magicians in most of my arguments, that's why Sam is often going first while Carl isn't. Carl (6+1D6) is lucky to get two phases per Combat Turn, whereas Sam (6+4D6) will average 3 phases each time with 4 every now and again. And that's using only two spell points at 15,000 nuyen for Sam. To gain a similar benefit, Carl has to blow 380,000 nuyen and 4 points of Magic (Synaptic Accelerator 2 and alpha Boosted Reflexes 3; nevermind that he's now a twitching psycho prone to hurt anyone around him if surprised or shocked).
And note that the 7 Build Points Carl can save by trading all his Spell Points still only nets him 350,000 nuyen at best (by increases Resources 25 to Resources 30) -- which, you might note, is 30,000 nuyen LESS than what he had to pay above to match Sam. And since the two would be the same in every other way, Sam still has 635,000 nuyen to blow on other gear (while Carl has only 620,000) since he would have had Resources 25 as well. And by only blowing 375,000 nuyen (which is still 5,000 nuyen less than what Carl had to pay above, which could be used to get a DocWagon Contract, a Contact, or whatever else) of that, Sam could have the full compliment of 50 Spell Points for even more abilities, including Initiation, Foci, or Spells.
And that's assuming that they both had Resources 25 to begin with. If they only had, say, Resources 10 (90,000), then Carl could only gain a max of 110,000 nuyen with his bonus Build Points. And even then, he wouldn't be able to afford reflex boosts anywhere near what Sam has available for only 15,000 and 2 Spell Points.
I'm also under the assumption that Carl was a Shamanistic Conjurer who didn't need to have any conjuring materials for his spirits. At which point he could only send one spirit at a time against Sam anyway. If he's a Hermetic Conjurer, he'd have to acquire numerous conjuring materials at an obscene price (1,000 nuyen per force per elemental). If he's Shamanistic and wanted to have the pile-on-the-spirits, he needs to spend some of those Spell Points to initiate. Since most of you guys are against Ordeals and Groups during character creation, that means he has to blow at least 18 Spell Points to do so to gain Invoking; meaning he only has 17 points remaining, meaning he can only get 3 more Build Points -- and guess what, that's not enough to increase his Resources at all.
And even if Carl the Hermetic did spend 16-36,000 nuyen for the materials to summon six Force 4 to Force 6 elementals (which he still needs to roll to see if he can after character creation, as he didn't put the Spell Points into having them beforehand), Sam can wipe out that entire investment with a single spell.
| QUOTE |
| Ok, I'll bite. How is it that Flak and Chaff do a damn thing against spirits? |
Exactly the same way it does against everyone else. Spirits on the astral plane can't effect Sorcerers unless the Sorcerer is using Astral Perception, which is something they don't need to do normally. They have to Materialize on the Physical Plane, at which point they're vulnerable to Physical Spells. And no, they can't hide on the Astral Plane and use their spirit powers either; powers and spells cannot cross planes.
Edit: I got Chaff and Flak confused with Chaos. I thought it affected sensors as well as people. Scratch those two from the list.
The same goes for the Illusions. So what if the spirits can pass through them? Their senses are still affected, and unless they have some other means of finding the Sorcerer, they're going to have to search for him by passing through every square centimeter of an illusion such as a maze, or forest fire, or smoke field, or anything else the illusionist creates. Just like any other character would in the same situation. The sorcerer could even include "THIS IS A MAGICAL ILLUSION OF A MAZE" on the walls of the maze and your average Joe Blow mundane would still have to deal with a lack of line of sight.
Which is precisely why I listed both the Mana and Physical Spells that can fuck with a spirit.
I'm not really interested in a discussion on chargen minmaxing. I already know that it takes more effort to make a conjurer as good as a sorcerer. The initiative excuse doesn't hold because these are surprise attacks, even if he did keep the spell sustained on trips to the grocery store (
). That is an inelegant patch to a flawed example.
At least I got you to admit that Flak and Chaff were impulsive, silly additions. Concede to Mist as well, good sir! Eventually we may get somewhere with this silly list.
). That is an inelegant patch to a flawed example.At least I got you to admit that Flak and Chaff were impulsive, silly additions. Concede to Mist as well, good sir! Eventually we may get somewhere with this silly list.
| QUOTE |
| The same goes for the Illusions. So what if the spirits can pass through them? Their senses are still affected, and unless they have some other means of finding the Sorcerer, they're going to have to search for him by passing through every square centimeter of an illusion such as a maze, or forest fire, or smoke field, or anything else the illusionist creates. Just like any other character would in the same situation. The sorcerer could even include "THIS IS A MAGICAL ILLUSION OF A MAZE" on the walls of the maze and your average Joe Blow mundane would still have to deal with a lack of line of sight. |
I simply cannot figure out why you consider such weak tactics valid (remove sorcerers own line of sight, his only way to cast spells at his enemies, and add +1-2 to TNs as a special bonus!), yet spirit powers which do the same things are somehow invalid. Furthermore, I'm no longer interested in finding out. It tells me that you've got a personal interest in Being Right rather than exploring all of the options. Arguing with someone in that position doesn't let me learn very much.
Since I'm left unfulfilled, how about this: rather than give me ALL of the options he has, give me your top five or so in terms of effectiveness. That might be more helpful since it'll weed out all of the "well he could cast Mist in the hopes that a mundane ally of the conjurer mistakenly shoots the spirit, and he could cast Spell Wall if he hopes that weakening his own abilities will confuse them, or he could piss and cast Wind so that they'll be repulsed by the asparagus odor" types of responses.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| <snip> And even if Carl the Hermetic did spend 16-36,000 nuyen for the materials to summon six Force 4 to Force 6 elementals (which he still needs to roll to see if he can after character creation, as he didn't put the Spell Points into having them beforehand), Sam can wipe out that entire investment with a single spell. <snip> |
Well Carl could start with those spirits, a foolish way to spend those spell points IMO.
You forgot that Carl the Hermetic would also need a conjuring library at a rating at least as high as the spirit's force, so add another 36,000¥.
Another big drawback to the low initiative is the spirits hold their initiative until commanded, so they are in about all cases losing actions all the time.
Calling an elemental is a complex action, commanding it takes another simple action, so unless the mage hopes to get more than a 10 initiative, he needs to have already called all his spirits. The same goes for shamen to an extent that it takes a simple action to call a nature spirit and the simple action to command. However, you can only command one spirit at a time or 2 per phase unless you give the exact same command to all called spirits.
Having the called spirits on standby creates its own problems and leaves the spirit vulnerable to attack as it awaits commands. This is comparable to a sustained spell, and think of all the ways GMs frag with those.
Sorry, but Mist is still a valid spell for the outline above. As for Surprise, the Sorcerer has an easy out about that, too. Detect Magic, Spirits, or Enemies would alert him beforehand. And while the first two may be rare, the third one is relatively common.
As for your argument about "why you consider such weak tactics valid," you keep ignoring the fact that the conjurer (and all but the highest Force spirits) have inferior initiative scores to the sorcerer. Unless a conjurer has set up an ambush -- which the sorcerer can do just as easily -- the sorcerer has the significantly higher odds of getting the first move in. And since the sorcerer has infinitely more options available to him to deal with a conjurer and his spirits, all odds are in the sorcerer's favor. The only way a conjurer would prevail is if he went outside of his natural abilities, and even then there's nothing stopping the sorcerer from doing exactly the same thing and thus maintaining the same or similar odds.
Top five options for the Sorcerer? Sorcery and the spells Spiritblast 6, Detect Enemies 6 with an Extended Range, Improved Initaitive 3 1, and oh I dunno, let's go with Spirit Barrier 6. Note that even with those spells, he still has 16 Spell Points available which is more than enough to bond two foci for Detect Enemies and Improved Initiative, or ot initiate once with a group and/or ordeal, snagging Quickening so he can save on Resources (or any other metamagic talent of choice). Assume he did it with a group and ordeal, leaving him with 5 points, and he takes a Stunbolt spell with that just for the hell of it.
Then stick to no ambushes for either side, no reliance on non-magical abilities or equipment outside of their specialty for either side, and assume all other stats and equipment are identical (readjust the Conjurer's stats as appropriate should you decide to trade in the points). Then say they're meeting at a single-story warehouse at noon, full of numerous boxes and other similar obstacles. It's just the Sorcerer and the Conjurer out to have a little fun with each other to test their abilities. No one's allowed to kill the other.
As for your argument about "why you consider such weak tactics valid," you keep ignoring the fact that the conjurer (and all but the highest Force spirits) have inferior initiative scores to the sorcerer. Unless a conjurer has set up an ambush -- which the sorcerer can do just as easily -- the sorcerer has the significantly higher odds of getting the first move in. And since the sorcerer has infinitely more options available to him to deal with a conjurer and his spirits, all odds are in the sorcerer's favor. The only way a conjurer would prevail is if he went outside of his natural abilities, and even then there's nothing stopping the sorcerer from doing exactly the same thing and thus maintaining the same or similar odds.
Top five options for the Sorcerer? Sorcery and the spells Spiritblast 6, Detect Enemies 6 with an Extended Range, Improved Initaitive 3 1, and oh I dunno, let's go with Spirit Barrier 6. Note that even with those spells, he still has 16 Spell Points available which is more than enough to bond two foci for Detect Enemies and Improved Initiative, or ot initiate once with a group and/or ordeal, snagging Quickening so he can save on Resources (or any other metamagic talent of choice). Assume he did it with a group and ordeal, leaving him with 5 points, and he takes a Stunbolt spell with that just for the hell of it.
Then stick to no ambushes for either side, no reliance on non-magical abilities or equipment outside of their specialty for either side, and assume all other stats and equipment are identical (readjust the Conjurer's stats as appropriate should you decide to trade in the points). Then say they're meeting at a single-story warehouse at noon, full of numerous boxes and other similar obstacles. It's just the Sorcerer and the Conjurer out to have a little fun with each other to test their abilities. No one's allowed to kill the other.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Sorry, but Mist is still a valid spell for the outline above. |
Valid as in "won't affect spirits at all, ever, period"?
And I'd like to explain what I mean by options a little more clearly. Lets say you're a sorcerer. Some spirits appear that you want to neutralize. What do you do? As I've said, spells-that-kill-them and barriers-that-contain-them are two options I've considered, and I genuinely want to hear more. I like the suggestion on this thread of going hand-to-hand with astral combat, but I think he'd probably lose if even a few watchers joined the fray for friends-in-melee support. That said, it still seems reasonable when selectively applied.
What I DON'T mean by option is something like increase reflexes +3, which will do nothing at all to hamper a spirit or its powers. If it helps you use more of your options, then that's fine, but it is not itself an option in the sense that I'm asking.
Mist creates a visual barrier that imposes penalties to vision. That affects spirits just as much as it affects anyone else, especially since they have to materialize (and it's still a visual barrier on the astral; physical objects aren't magically transparent there) to affect the Sorcerer unless the Sorcerer is using Astral Perception at the time. Your inability to comprehend that simple fact is none of my concern.
I also love how you insist on trying to dismiss the Sorcerer's Increased Reflexes -- the very ability that a Conjurer lacks, and one of the ones in the heart of this debate. You keep trying to point out how I'm ignoring the Conjurer's abilities, yet you're doing exactly the same thing to the Sorcerer. Conjurers are *crippled* by their lack of a natural ability to augment their Initiative. The Sorcerer keeps his Increased Reflexes 3 as it reflects why the Conjurer is crippled as such.
Sorcerers can kill the spirits outright (Spirit Blast/Stunbolt/Lightning Bolt/anything else that affects others), they can bind them (Bind), they can put up an obstacle to block them (Spirit Barrier), they can improve their combat prowess for when they engage them (Armor, Deflect, Flame Aura, etc.), they can limit the spirits ability to function (Mist, Blindness, Wind, Spell Shield, etc.), they can disable the spirit as easily as anyone else (Decrease Attribute, Cause Allergy), they can interfer with the terrain in which the spirit is attacking (Glue, Shape Earth, Firewall), and numerous other tactics that work just as well on anyone else.
They don't have to be focused or limited to only functioning on spirits. The fact that they don't just proves the Sorcerer's superiority in fending off Conjurers and their Spirits; they can use the same spell.. the same power.. to destory/disable/limit both.
What can a Conjurer do against Sorcery? Magical Guard adds a few extra dice, but is only available to Wujen and precious few others. Accident (arguably their best bet) might have a shot of interferring with spells, but it's just as iffy for spells as it is for anything else. Beyond that, everything else they might be able to use against Sorcery requires the Conjurer to act first (the other two are relatively passive and can be activated beforehand) and command his spirits to perform the given service(s). But, as pointed out numerous times before, that's just not going to happen without going outside their basic abilities which, also as pointed out numerous times before, the Sorcerer can do as well.
I also love how you insist on trying to dismiss the Sorcerer's Increased Reflexes -- the very ability that a Conjurer lacks, and one of the ones in the heart of this debate. You keep trying to point out how I'm ignoring the Conjurer's abilities, yet you're doing exactly the same thing to the Sorcerer. Conjurers are *crippled* by their lack of a natural ability to augment their Initiative. The Sorcerer keeps his Increased Reflexes 3 as it reflects why the Conjurer is crippled as such.
Sorcerers can kill the spirits outright (Spirit Blast/Stunbolt/Lightning Bolt/anything else that affects others), they can bind them (Bind), they can put up an obstacle to block them (Spirit Barrier), they can improve their combat prowess for when they engage them (Armor, Deflect, Flame Aura, etc.), they can limit the spirits ability to function (Mist, Blindness, Wind, Spell Shield, etc.), they can disable the spirit as easily as anyone else (Decrease Attribute, Cause Allergy), they can interfer with the terrain in which the spirit is attacking (Glue, Shape Earth, Firewall), and numerous other tactics that work just as well on anyone else.
They don't have to be focused or limited to only functioning on spirits. The fact that they don't just proves the Sorcerer's superiority in fending off Conjurers and their Spirits; they can use the same spell.. the same power.. to destory/disable/limit both.
What can a Conjurer do against Sorcery? Magical Guard adds a few extra dice, but is only available to Wujen and precious few others. Accident (arguably their best bet) might have a shot of interferring with spells, but it's just as iffy for spells as it is for anything else. Beyond that, everything else they might be able to use against Sorcery requires the Conjurer to act first (the other two are relatively passive and can be activated beforehand) and command his spirits to perform the given service(s). But, as pointed out numerous times before, that's just not going to happen without going outside their basic abilities which, also as pointed out numerous times before, the Sorcerer can do as well.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| Mist creates a visual barrier that imposes penalties to vision. That affects spirits just as much as it affects anyone else, especially since they have to materialize (and it's still a visual barrier on the astral; physical objects aren't magically transparent there) to affect the Sorcerer unless the Sorcerer is using Astral Perception at the time. |
It's a physical spell; it has no effect on the astral.
| QUOTE |
| I also love how you insist on trying to dismiss the Sorcerer's Increased Reflexes -- the very ability that a Conjurer lacks, and one of the ones in the heart of this debate. |
I'm not debating anything, I asked for options that a sorcerer may employ to deal with conjuring, and got a lame reply. A sorcerer will never defeat a spirit using the Increase Reflexes +3 spell. It's simply not what I'm asking for.
Your list was much better this time, but I find some of the elements lacking. Bind works on one target, but it'll still get to use its powers on you and you'll be at TN penalties when dealing with the rest. You included Mist again. Spell shield mystifies me; any spirit trying to use innate spells will be pleased that you've crippled yourself and use one of their many alternate forms of attack, or simply step through the barrier. In any case, thank you for trying harder with my request, if only to convince me that the three things I mentioned earlier really are the extent of practical options that a sorcerer will use against spirits.
| QUOTE |
| It's a physical spell; it has no effect on the astral. |
Mist creates a mist on the physical plane. While it doesn't exist on the astral plane, it still interfers with vision on the astral plane just like a wall, boulder, or real fog would. Note that all three of those things are wholly Physical, too.
| QUOTE |
| I'm not debating anything, I asked for options that a sorcerer may employ to deal with conjuring, and got a lame reply. A sorcerer will never defeat a spirit using the Increase Reflexes +3 spell. It's simply not what I'm asking for. |
Yes, because going first and unleashing any one of their other countless options for destroying said spirit is definitely a non-issue, right?
And so what if the Sorcerer will likely still have a phase or two after the spirit and Conjurer have exhausted theirs (assuming he didn't take them out on his first action, and then assuming that they had equal difficulty taking him out on theirs as well)? Minor detail, that. Such a useless spell it is when dealing with spirits or anything else for that matter.
| QUOTE |
| Your list was much better this time, but I find some of the elements lacking. Bind works on one target, but it'll still get to use its powers on you and you'll be at TN penalties when dealing with the rest. You included Mist again. Spell shield mystifies me; any spirit trying to use innate spells will be pleased that you've crippled yourself and use one of their many alternate forms of attack, or simply step through the barrier. In any case, thank you for trying harder with my request, if only to convince me that the three things I mentioned earlier really are the extent of practical options that a sorcerer will use against spirits. |
Talk about a lame reply.
I only listed a few examples. Bind has an area effect version called Net, and both still function against spirits (which is precisely what you asked for). And yes, I did include Mist again and it is a viable option despite your inability to comprehend it. Spell Shield performs just peachy against spirit powers like Flamethrower; it may not be a good option, but it is an option. I didn't say that all of those options would be wise tactics to imply, only available ones.
Oh, and you're welcome, even if you're intentionally acting ignorant in a pathetic attempt to prove your (lack of a) point as to why Conjurers aren't hampered by their innate crippling.
Thank you for the numerous admissions you've made so far. I know how hard that is for you, and I can respect it.
I'll abandon my remaining avenues of argument in the sake of diplomacy and my own sanity, because I'm tired of fighting tooth and nail to get you to say "yeah, spell wall/flak/phantasm/whatever would be pretty dumb". It just shouldn't take this much work to reach a simple conclusion like that.
I'll abandon my remaining avenues of argument in the sake of diplomacy and my own sanity, because I'm tired of fighting tooth and nail to get you to say "yeah, spell wall/flak/phantasm/whatever would be pretty dumb". It just shouldn't take this much work to reach a simple conclusion like that.
You're one to talk.Regardless, I decided to hash out just what a Conjurer has to his advantage.
Can Conjurers using Conjuring to directly battle spells? Nope. Can Sorcerers use Sorcery to directly battle spirits? Yep. Score one for the Sorcerer.
Can a Conjurer augment his Initiative without having to ruin his magic and go outside his chosen field? Nope. Can Sorcerers? Yep. Score two for the Sorcerer.
Let's pit some spirit powers against a sorcerer spells:
Accident : Bind, Decrease (a low) Attribute, Petrify, etc.
Concealment : Camouflage, Invisibility, Mask, etc.
Confusion : Chaos, Confusion, Mist, Phantasm, etc.
Engulf : Elemental Manipulations, Firewall, etc.
Fear : Foreboding
Flame Aura : Flame Aura
Guard : Increase Quickness, Increase Intelligence, etc.
Immunity : Armor, Barrier, etc.
Influence : Control Thoughts, Influence, etc.
Innate Spell : Actual Spells
Magical Guard : Spell Defense, Spell Shield, Barrier, etc.
Magic Sense : Detect Magic
Materialization : Astral Perception (allows them to become dual-natured)
Mimicry : Illusions
Movement : Increase Quickness, Shapechange, etc.
Noxious Breath : Stink
Psychokinesis : Magic Fingers, etc.
Search : Clairvoyance and other Detection Spells
In some cases the spirit's power is more effective (such as Guard and Immunity) and in other cases the spell is more effective (such as Magical Guard and Mimicry). Yet there's not a single spirit power that I know of that a Sorcerer cannot also perform to one degree or another if they so chose to do so. Yet there's plenty that the Conjurer cannot do. While it is in the Sorcer's favor, I'll still say it's a tie. Score: Sorcerer 2, Conjurer 0.
Can a Conjurer unleash multiple spirits simultaneously? Yes. Can a Sorcerer unleash multiple spells simultaneously? Only with Anchoring, and then the drain would be pretty nasty. Score one, finally, for the Conjurer. Score: Sorcerer 2, Conjurer 1.
Is a Conjurer's spirits vulnerable to attack by a Sorcerer simply because they have to wait around and twiddle their thumbs until the Conjurer gets his first action? Yes. Is a Sorcerer's spells vulnerable to attack by a Conjurer when he's going first as he most likely will every time unless the Conjurer ruins his magic or is a Wujen that has set up an ambush/requested a spirit (who's now vulnerable) to use Magical Guard? No. Score another point for the Sorcerer. Score: Sorcerer 3, Conjurer 1.
Can a Conjurer create an ally spirit? Yes. Can a Sorcerer? No. Score: Sorcerer 3, Conjurer 2.
When a Conjurer creates an ally spirit, is it grossly crippled compared to other ally spirits? Yes. Is any of a Sorcerer's uses of Sorcery crippled in even a remotely similar fashion? No. Score: Sorcerer 4, Conjurer 2.
How many metamagic techniques does a Conjurer have access to? Centering, Channeling, Divination, Invoking, and Masking (right off the top of my head). A Sorcerer? Anchoring, Centering, Divination, Masking, Quickening, Reflecting, Scorching (?), Shielding, etc. Score: Sorcerer 5, Conjurer 2.
How many skills does a Conjurer *really* need? One. Sorcerer? One. Astral Perception? Both. Projection? Neither. Tied on all three accounts. Score: Sorcerer 5, Conjurer 2.
Can a Conjurer throw away 875,000 nuyen to gain a whole 7 Build Points? Sure, but they'd be foolish to do so (though less so than a Sorcerer). Can a Sorcerer? Sure, but they'd be foolish to do so. Barely a tiebreaker between the two, but I'll (again) be generous and give the point to the Conjurer. Score: Sorcerer 5, Conjurer 3.
Can a Conjurer get cyberware, combat skills, become a master of ambushing, and all that goodness? Yes. Can a Sorcerer? Yes. Tie.
Yep. 5 to 3. Totally equal in every way. I guess I was mistaken. My apologies.
A Conjuring Adept can bring Queen Bug Spirits to this world. A Sorcery Adept can not.
DF, a few points.
For a sorcerer to improve his abilities, what must he do? Initiate, learn new spells, increase his sorcery/stats. For a conjurer to improve his abilities, what must he do? Initiate, increase his conjuring/stats. Point Conjurer.
And then you get to utility examples. Take the case where five people are sneaking past some guards. Whose powers are more useful here? The shamanic conjurer can whip up a force 4 or 5 spirit and have it conceal the group with no problem. The sorcerer can attempt to cast and sustain five invisibility spells. Point conjurer.
There are all sorts of examples like this where you're looking at things outside of a direct fight where the conjurer wins and there are others were the sorcerer with the right spells wins.
For a sorcerer to improve his abilities, what must he do? Initiate, learn new spells, increase his sorcery/stats. For a conjurer to improve his abilities, what must he do? Initiate, increase his conjuring/stats. Point Conjurer.
And then you get to utility examples. Take the case where five people are sneaking past some guards. Whose powers are more useful here? The shamanic conjurer can whip up a force 4 or 5 spirit and have it conceal the group with no problem. The sorcerer can attempt to cast and sustain five invisibility spells. Point conjurer.
There are all sorts of examples like this where you're looking at things outside of a direct fight where the conjurer wins and there are others were the sorcerer with the right spells wins.
Conjurers can also put every point of Karma the Sorcerer is pumping into learning new spells into creating an Ally Spirit. Tie. Whether or not they choose to do so is up the individual character. Sorcerers are not obligated to learn new spells, initiate, or increase his stats anymore than a Conjurer is. Point tied, slight lean towards the Conjurer (but note how often that occured towards the Sorcerer in the earlier examples).
Five people are sneaking past some guards? The Sorcerer can, indeed, cast Invisibility five times whereas the Conjurer could use a spirit to use Concealment, but the Sorcerer can also create a single "Mass Invisibility" spell to do the same thing, or could use countless other existing spells in countless different ways to assist in that situation. Then you have the countless situations where a Sorcerer's spells have no comparable spirit power ability. What of those scenarios? Point tied.
I also remembered while I was out running errands another important aspect. Do Conjurers have full access to all available spirits? Nope; they get less than half of them at best. Do Sorcerers have full access to all available spells (and even more, the ability to create their own unique ones)? Yes. Point for the Sorcerer.
I'm not really going to comment on OurTeam's response; that's an NPC-only ability for the most part and has little bearing on the meat of this discussion. (No offense intended, though.)
Current Score: Sorcerer 6, Conjurer 3.
Five people are sneaking past some guards? The Sorcerer can, indeed, cast Invisibility five times whereas the Conjurer could use a spirit to use Concealment, but the Sorcerer can also create a single "Mass Invisibility" spell to do the same thing, or could use countless other existing spells in countless different ways to assist in that situation. Then you have the countless situations where a Sorcerer's spells have no comparable spirit power ability. What of those scenarios? Point tied.
I also remembered while I was out running errands another important aspect. Do Conjurers have full access to all available spirits? Nope; they get less than half of them at best. Do Sorcerers have full access to all available spells (and even more, the ability to create their own unique ones)? Yes. Point for the Sorcerer.
I'm not really going to comment on OurTeam's response; that's an NPC-only ability for the most part and has little bearing on the meat of this discussion. (No offense intended, though.)
Current Score: Sorcerer 6, Conjurer 3.
Ally spirits, in my opinion, suck for aspected mages. They are rarely worth the huge karma investment, and only a groggy character who was solely designed around conjuration should even consider them. The conjurer could also throw the same karma into an underwater combat skill of 50, but I don't count that, either.
While the sorcerer does have a huge array of spells at his disposal, he also has to learn them each one at the force he needs them. At equal karma levels, the sorcerer is outclassed in as many areas by the conjurer as the conjurer is outclassed by the sorcerer.
The real question is, if the team has the option of hiring on a single groggy, which one would they pick? Who gives the more bang to the team for the cut of the run? It's a pretty big tossup and depends a lot on the individual mage's choices.
While the sorcerer does have a huge array of spells at his disposal, he also has to learn them each one at the force he needs them. At equal karma levels, the sorcerer is outclassed in as many areas by the conjurer as the conjurer is outclassed by the sorcerer.
The real question is, if the team has the option of hiring on a single groggy, which one would they pick? Who gives the more bang to the team for the cut of the run? It's a pretty big tossup and depends a lot on the individual mage's choices.
Dr, Func.... I agree with you, but you forgot some points towards the Conjurer that are VERY important in the alg. Unfortunately, they require the Ally spirit, but once that is achieved:
Conjurers can "summon" a Power Foci that doesn't count against Foci Addiction, a Sorcerer can not.
Conjurers can learn any spell a Sorcerer can (albeit, the Ally Spirit has to cast it).
That changes the score from Sorcerer 5, Conjurer 3 to Sorcerer 4, Conjurer 4.
Sphynx
Conjurers can "summon" a Power Foci that doesn't count against Foci Addiction, a Sorcerer can not.
Conjurers can learn any spell a Sorcerer can (albeit, the Ally Spirit has to cast it).
That changes the score from Sorcerer 5, Conjurer 3 to Sorcerer 4, Conjurer 4.
Sphynx
No, you're just counting the Ally Spirit three times (and the last bit, about Ally Spirits being able to cast spells, is still up for debate; while I allow it and even argue for allowing it, it's pretty clear that the context of the rules suggest that you're not "supposed" to allow it).
Aid Power is simply one of the benefits of pouring so much Karma into creating the ally spirit, just as gaining additional spells is the benefit of pouring Karma into new spells for the Sorcerer. And some people, as TinkerGnome so elegantly showed, still find Ally Spirits a hinderance to Conjurers despite that. Regardless, that aspect is still a tie in my eyes. So it's still 6 to 3.
But if you want to count every single spirit power as a Conjurer point, we need to go through and count every spell for the Sorcerer, too. And somehow I imagine there's more spells than spirit powers, especially considering that a Sorcerer has access to all of the spells whereas a Conjurer is limited to spirit powers by tradition.
Aid Power is simply one of the benefits of pouring so much Karma into creating the ally spirit, just as gaining additional spells is the benefit of pouring Karma into new spells for the Sorcerer. And some people, as TinkerGnome so elegantly showed, still find Ally Spirits a hinderance to Conjurers despite that. Regardless, that aspect is still a tie in my eyes. So it's still 6 to 3.
But if you want to count every single spirit power as a Conjurer point, we need to go through and count every spell for the Sorcerer, too. And somehow I imagine there's more spells than spirit powers, especially considering that a Sorcerer has access to all of the spells whereas a Conjurer is limited to spirit powers by tradition.
This point by point argument on Sorcerers versus Conjurers is completely asnine.
You are arguing things that are based on subjective preference and usefulness onlt the way YOU play characters, and the way YOUR GM runs a game. This is like a giant thread that consists of:
Yeah huh!
Nuh huh!
Yeah huh!
Nuh huh!
Yeah huh!
Nuh huh!
Yeah huh!
Nuh huh!
Yeah huh!
Nuh huh!
Yeah huh!
Nuh huh!
......times infinity.
Read the last 2 pages objectively.. yeesh.
You are arguing things that are based on subjective preference and usefulness onlt the way YOU play characters, and the way YOUR GM runs a game. This is like a giant thread that consists of:
Yeah huh!
Nuh huh!
Yeah huh!
Nuh huh!
Yeah huh!
Nuh huh!
Yeah huh!
Nuh huh!
Yeah huh!
Nuh huh!
Yeah huh!
Nuh huh!
......times infinity.
Read the last 2 pages objectively.. yeesh.
BitBasher: you miss the point. They're providing entertainment for the rest of the board.
Also, now and then they are actually quibbling out the details to the level that some of the munchkins we encounter will drag things to. Having all the most minute and pedantic details worked out ahead of time can be good.
~J
Also, now and then they are actually quibbling out the details to the level that some of the munchkins we encounter will drag things to. Having all the most minute and pedantic details worked out ahead of time can be good.
~J
You're free not to read the discussions. No one stops you from arguing your points in other threads.
He never did actually tell you to stop. He was commenting on his perception of the predictability of this thread. To destroy his prediction, you could all start debating a new topic. Or carry on the endless hypotheticals as if this intrusion had never happened.
I'll add my point: sorcery is great if you can go on astral quests to make all spells cost 1 karma. Conjuring is fun when the spirit successfully destroys 7 competant enemies in one strike, preferably with no collateral damage (stole us a new helicopter once by a mass engulf command).
My perception on the matter will probably not change your calculations in any way. Unless an admin is called, otside views on the topic are merely views and not attempted censorship.
I'll add my point: sorcery is great if you can go on astral quests to make all spells cost 1 karma. Conjuring is fun when the spirit successfully destroys 7 competant enemies in one strike, preferably with no collateral damage (stole us a new helicopter once by a mass engulf command).
My perception on the matter will probably not change your calculations in any way. Unless an admin is called, otside views on the topic are merely views and not attempted censorship.
Oy. Yes, they didn't actually say "shut up about it already, munchkins" even though it's obvious that's what they're trying to infer. I keep forgetting the general rule of thumb around here; fuck context and intent, and only use the exact words they use because that makes it all okay.
| QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein) |
| I keep forgetting the general rule of thumb around here; fuck context and intent, and only use the exact words they use because that makes it all okay. |
Exactly. You're learning
~J
You know Funk, unless someone actually points to a rule saying a Conjurer can't teach an Ally spells at the AllyDesign stage, it's not at all "up for debate", it's Canon, and anything else is a House Rule.
Anyhows, once again, I agree that Conjurers are weaker, but this time let me state the real list of reasons why.
Quicken. Like it or not, no matter how many spells you teach an Ally, he can't Quicken the spell to you. Sorcerer's true power comes from when they can Quicken (just like a Conjurer's true power comes from when he can summon that Ally spirit).
Ally Spirit. This is actually a weakness of the Conjurer and the reason I'd never play one. You HAVE to have one of these, spending as much karma as 100+ to have a decent one (Force 6 with spells), and the end result is that you lose it after a few games. Anything less than Force 6 you can expect to lose alot sooner.
Spell Defense. Sorry, but not NEAR enough spirits have Magical Guard.
Spells/SpiritPowers. These kinda even out.
Ok, I can go fast, you can go many times (# of spirits). (conjurer gets the better deal here)
I can be invisible, you can conceal.(even steven)
I can Spell Defense, you might be able to Magical Guard, (sorcerer gets the better deal here)
So comparing the 'tools' of the trade seem pointless, it evens out in the end. But Quicken, Spell Defense, and the DEPENDENCY on an Ally Spirit that won't be around for long and takes a ton of Karma makes sure that I always play Sorcerers. That, and as the Doc said, the Sorcerer's list of 'tools' can constantly increase, a Conjurer is stuck with the list he started with (though more judiciuos use of spirit choices makes things a bit easier).
Side Note: Hermetic Conjurer has the worse of all worlds. I honestly can't imagine that being a fun type at all.
Sphynx
Anyhows, once again, I agree that Conjurers are weaker, but this time let me state the real list of reasons why.
Quicken. Like it or not, no matter how many spells you teach an Ally, he can't Quicken the spell to you. Sorcerer's true power comes from when they can Quicken (just like a Conjurer's true power comes from when he can summon that Ally spirit).
Ally Spirit. This is actually a weakness of the Conjurer and the reason I'd never play one. You HAVE to have one of these, spending as much karma as 100+ to have a decent one (Force 6 with spells), and the end result is that you lose it after a few games. Anything less than Force 6 you can expect to lose alot sooner.
Spell Defense. Sorry, but not NEAR enough spirits have Magical Guard.
Spells/SpiritPowers. These kinda even out.
Ok, I can go fast, you can go many times (# of spirits). (conjurer gets the better deal here)
I can be invisible, you can conceal.(even steven)
I can Spell Defense, you might be able to Magical Guard, (sorcerer gets the better deal here)
So comparing the 'tools' of the trade seem pointless, it evens out in the end. But Quicken, Spell Defense, and the DEPENDENCY on an Ally Spirit that won't be around for long and takes a ton of Karma makes sure that I always play Sorcerers. That, and as the Doc said, the Sorcerer's list of 'tools' can constantly increase, a Conjurer is stuck with the list he started with (though more judiciuos use of spirit choices makes things a bit easier).
Side Note: Hermetic Conjurer has the worse of all worlds. I honestly can't imagine that being a fun type at all.
Sphynx
Eck. Hermetic conjurer is the only way to make it work; if I'm feeling truly masochistic someday I'll try a Shamanic conjurer, but... no. Just no.
~J
~J
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