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Dogsoup
Since a Conjuring adept probably don't have Sorcery, s/he can't allocate Spell defense to anyone or thing, right?
(Furthermore they can't Dispel, but I have a far easier time swallowing that considering that you can't Banish without Conjuring.)

This is pretty weak in my eyes, since not having Spell defense is a major inferiority to Spell adepts, especially since there wouldn't be much else to do with the Spell pool as a Conjuring adept. Why would you hash out 25 Building points on something that doesn't put you much better off than a Remote control deck (VCR optional)?

M'self, Im prolly gonna houserule this in some way.
RedmondLarry
You are correct. No Sorcery dice to allocate means no Spell Defense according to the book.

Many will agree with you that a Conjuring Adept should have some better defense, compared to mundanes, against spells. Though perhaps something that only helps themseves, not others (like Spell Defense can do). Your choice, your house rule. Be happy.
The Frumious Bandersnatch
I've always allowed Conjurers to use their Spell Pool as a "Conjuring Pool" instead, thus giving them some use out of it. But I do leave Spell Defense in the hands of Sorcery-capable magicians.

Not entirely sure why they gave Conjurers the short end of the stick, though. Not only can't they use Spell Defense, but they have no means of improving their Initiative unlike just about every other character in the game (well, at least not without sacrificing their magic).
Dogsoup
I think I can see why the Spell pool isn't available for Conjuring tests, since those are most often made in safety, while the conjurer don't have to save dice for spellcasting when 'defending'. It would be the best of both worlds without any compromise done.

But they should be allowed to allocate Spell defense with their Spell pool IMO. If not by any other reason than that there's not really much else they can do with it...
Glyph
... which is a good reason they shouldn't get spell defense house ruled to them. They will be able to allocate 6 dice to spell defense all the time, making it a lot harder for any spellcaster to affect them or their buddies. And is there any reason at all that a conjurer should be able to defend against spells, any more than a mundane or an adept can? Someone who plays an aspected conjurer should either accept the limitations, or play a full mage.
The Frumious Bandersnatch
I think the point is that Conjurers are more "crippled" than the other Magic B/25 Build Point options available in terms of what they can do. Sure, they can conjurer and dispel spirits, but that's hardly comparable to the options a Sorcerer has, not to mention an Adept.
Bearclaw
Spell defense is a specialization under Sorcery. If you can't use sorcery, you can't use spell defense. Makes sense to me.
If you want a conjurer who can use spell defense, make a path of the mage, take sorcery, but use the spell points to bond an ally or something. Don't learn any spells. Then, you get to conjure and spell defend.
And you can add killing hands, increased initiative and all the other cool stuff.
TinkerGnome
Conjurer's can't supply spell defense, but that shouldn't matter since having an aspected mage as your team's only mage is a bad idea. The advantages spirits offer over pure sorcery aren't immediately obvious, but they do exist.
Dogsoup
QUOTE
Someone who plays an aspected conjurer should either accept the limitations, or play a full mage.
QUOTE
/...since having an aspected mage as your team's only mage is a bad idea.

I think the "bite the bullet"-approach almost make the Conj. adept seem redundant, and if I wouldn't be set on a house rule, I would agree;
It's simply not worth the 5 BP rebate considering what you're losing.
TinkerGnome
It costs 18 BP to make a conjurer with no spell points. That's rather cheap and works well with a lot of other concepts (particularly the shamanic conjurer). Since the force of spirits isn't quite so important as with spells (if for no other reason than that the drain is done off of the full force of the summoned spirit), you can also aford some bioware/cyberware and still be quite effective.
Kagetenshi
That being, of course, if you're using some sort of crazy houserule. By canon there's one cost for a Conjurer (25), and they can't get rid of the spell points, they always have them.

~J
The Frumious Bandersnatch
Someone hasn't read the Shadowrun Companion then. smile.gif Awakened characters can trade in Spell Points for Build Points at a 5:1 ratio I believe. So 25 BP - (35 SP/5 = 7 BP) = 18 BP. While a nice option, it still doesn't make up for things. You're effectively giving up the equivalence of 875,000 nuyen (35 Spell Points at 25,000 nuyen a pop) for 7 Build Points. The Conjurer is still getting kicked in the bollocks compared to the other 25 BP Magic options.

And yes, despite this, I am currently playing an aspected Conjurer in a game and plan on having fun with him. That doesn't negate the fact that compared to an aspected Sorcerer or even Shamanist/Elementalist, they get the shaft. They get no bonus pool to augment their abilities, they don't have any complimentary options to boost their Initiative or Reaction (mundanes have cyberware, sorcerers have Increased Reflexes, and adepts have Improved Reflexes) and thus are slower than all the other character types, and while they're supposed to be the penultimate masters of spirits, their ally spirits are pale comparisons to what an aspected Shamanist or Elementalist (let alone a full Magician) can create simply because they can't give them any spells or the free Sorcery skill.

In fact, the only other magical option that has it nearly as bad as the Conjurer is the Psionic, but that's mostly because whoever designed that blurb in MitS had the D&D mentality of "must limit options to add flavor because we cannot trust players to design characters appropriately for a concept, despite that its the core philosophy of the rest of the Shadowrun system."
Kagetenshi
Page reference? I've read SRComp many a time and have never encountered that rule, to my memory.

~J
Shockwave_IIc
SComp pg 14 second side first paragraph
Sphynx
Page 14 under the heading Magic. wink.gif

Sphynx
Shockwave_IIc
Sorry Sphynx beat ya again wink.gif
Kagetenshi
Well bugger, you're right.
Time to start rewriting reality so I was never wrong again.

~J
Large Mike

That's right, conjurers *do* rule.
Dogsoup
Well then... I guess 18 BP is pretty reasonable and it leaves room for some Sorcery to get around the Spell Defense problem. Thanks Frumious, Don't know how I could mistrust the SR system like that!

...Now we only have to get that psionic up on his feet wink.gif
Kanada Ten
I wonder if we should invent very specific spirits (similar to watchers); one would have powers to increase initiative and an other could provide spell armor?

Make it require a Knowledge Skill for each with the maximum force relative?

Speeder
B(B-1) Q(F+2) S(F-1) C(F) I(F) W(F)
Powers: Increase Initiative (F + *D6)

A specialized watcher spirit. Drain level relative to D6 increase (+1 Moderate, +2 Serious, +3 Deadly). Lasts for a number of turns equal Successes, though Watcher conjuring materials can increase this time to hours. Increased Initiative is an Exclusive Sustained power usable only on the summoner or itself. It requires a Force(Target's Reaction) test. Counts towards maximum Watchers.

Armor Meister
B(B+1) Q(F-2) S(F+1) C(F) I(F) W(F)
Powers: Spell Defense

Another watcher that can provide a number of Spell Defense dice to the summoner or itself. The drain is decided as if the spirit were a nature spirit, and Spell Defense dice equal force. The spirit must allocate the dice before use and it requires an Exclusive Sustained action while providing the dice. The watcher last a number of turns equal to successes; watcher conjuring materials can increase the time to hours. Counts towards maximum Watchers.

Make it require a Knowledge Skill for each with the maximum force relative?

For the psionic, the spirit is quick to conjure and without domain. I think it just needs more types of mental forms. Maybe even a "totem" bonus for Spell Defense against mind attacks (like control thoughts).
The Frumious Bandersnatch
I think a more reasonable way of handling it would to be create new spirit powers that provide those functions. smile.gif For example, a power called "Hasten" or something might boost a subject's Initiative by +1D6 for every two points of Force (or whatever other mechanic you wish to use), and another power could provide Spell Defense for a number of subjects equal to the spirit's Force or dice equal to their Force. Something along those lines. Basically requiring the Conjurer to exchange a service for the benefits.

Not only would it help fill in that weakness for aspected Conjurers, but it gives full Magicians an extra option, too.
Glyph
Just get Invoking, then Channeling - your character will get a boost to physical Attributes and Immunity to Normal Weapons.

If you want spell defense, play a Wu Jen conjurer - spirits of the elements have the Magical Guard power.
The Frumious Bandersnatch
I'm always baffled when people refuse to see the problem, then offer "solutions" that don't address it.

Because as we all know, a boost to your Physical Attributes (using a Force 6 spirit no less, whose max bonus to Reaction is going to be +3, not to mention the DEADLY drain you're going to be resisting using NOTHING but Charisma afterwards, for an effect that might last you 10 minutes if you're lucky to begin with... oh, and losing all of the other services you may have had as well, as well as taking an Exclusive Complex Action to evoke) is going to allow you to match the speed of, say, someone with something as simple Boosted Reflexes 1 (average boost of +3.5) let alone anything more advanced.

But yeah, thanks for reminding me about Magical Guard. I thought there was a power like that available but I couldn't remember what it was called. I think it's going to become a standard power for all spirits now, along with the other one I mentioned once I settle on some mechanics for it.
TinkerGnome
The conjurer is a relatively weak magician, but you still get something for your points. However, there are quite a few advantages to it, as well. It isn't a good pure concept, but rather a decent part of a full concept. Ie, you really need to be a conjurer/something. The conjurer/face is a good choice since you're already loading up on charisma, but you can go many other routes as well.

For one thing, conjurers suffer comparatively less for adding cyber/bioware than most other mages unless they want to summon high force great form spirits. And that's its own reward, really. The fact that you also don't have to blow karma and time on higher force spells like sorcery capable characters is rather useful, as well, for your other activities.
Glyph
Invoking and chanelling doesn't let you match a sammie's speed, but it does let you laugh at bullets, and even shotgun slugs. I was looking at it more from a combat effeciveness standpoint than a pure speed standpoint. For a conjuror, his initiative shouldn't matter that much. The initiative of the spirits he conjures should be what matters more. Yes, you are the only class that can't get an initiative boost without paying for it in lost magic, but you also have a continual supply of allies who fight for you.

Besides, you can get Boosted Reflexes: 1 and some other good cyber for less than one Essense point - you don't really need three or more actions in a round, so that should be plenty. Or wait until you've intitiated a few times and get wired reflexes - how often does a conjuror summon spirits of 7 or greater Force, anyways?

You have great advantages - only 18 point cost (although a favorite technique of mine is to spend 18 points to Initiate once, 12 to bond a Force: 6 Spirit Focus, and turn the last 5 points in for a build point), and quick improvement after that - only one skill to improve, Intiation is less important to get at high levels - you can spend a lot more Karma on "mundane" skills, becoming more well-rounded, or concentrate on improving your Charisma and conjuring skill to a very high level.
Sphynx
Heh, Glyph beat me to the punch on this one... I was about to say that a Conjurer has an Initiative of (Force+10ish+1D6)xCharisma if he wants. With a really mean -2/+2 Friends-in-Combat routine going on. It doesn't matter how fast he moves, it's how fast they move, and they'll always go at least twice a round in the Physical Plane. Conjurers aren't missing anything.

Sphynx
The Frumious Bandersnatch
If you're initiating so that you can get not one, but two, grades (and thus Invoking and Channeling), then you didn't just cause 18 BP. And it's only happening if your GM allows you to initiate during character creation, which is a completely optional (and around here on DSF, often frowned upon, and even when it's not frowned upon, they insist on no groups and ordeals) rule to begin with. So that means you'd have to spend 18 Spell Points to hit Grade 1 (Invoking) and 21 to hit Grade 2 (Channeling), meaning you just ate up 39 Spell Points. Which means you just had to spend at least 15 MORE Build Points to afford that extra 100,000 nuyen to pay the difference. So it's now a 40 Build Point character.

Not only that, but once you are out on a run, you're going to have to effectively conjure all of your spirits three times, resist Drain twice, and then resist Deadly drain after all of that -- using nothing but Charisma each time. Oh, and to be effective against Heavy Pistols and Shotguns, you need a minimum Force 5 Great Form spirit channeled into yourself, and that's assuming they're not using EX Explosive rounds in those weapons (at which point you would need a Force 6 or higher one). So that means you're resisting 8D-10D Drain (Force 5 x 2, minus Grade 2), just to gain an immunity to firearms. Which, of course, doesn't really matter since your opponents are still running circles around you, who will likely only gain one or (if you're lucky) two phases during combat. And despite that, where did you get the 360,000 nuyen to afford that Force 6 Spirit Focus of yours, which is only useful on a single type of spirit anyway?

And I don't know what you're talking about Sphynx; Conjurers do not have (Force+10+1D6) x Charisma initiatives. Their spirits may, but they still have to command their spirits, which you can only do on your one or (if you're lucky) two phases per Combat Turn. And I believe you can only command one at a time, though I'm not entirely sure about that and could easily be wrong.

So no, none of your options are valid solutions to the actual problem. And again, yes, I am playing a Conjurer myself and I'm well aware of what they can and cannot do. You guys are just taking the standard DSF pose of "well, I refuse to acknowledge the problem, so I'm going to pretend to be wise and all-knowing and show you just how stupid you are by not addressing the actual issue, but pointing out some of their other minor perks, which are only equal (at best) to the other magical options available, such as Aspected Sorcerers."

But, whatever.
Sphynx
Heh, you are right Frum, Conjurers are the weakest magical types in the game. I'm not doubting that at all. I'd personally never play one. What I'm saying (and what others are saying) is that a person who plays a Conjurer, isn't trying to make a perfect-self. They understand the extreme restriction that they'll never be powerful, but their spirits can. I say your Initiative is that because as a Conjurer, it's your Spirits which will be your warriors.

And with SR3, regardless of how slow you are, you get to give that simple command (or 2) the first phase (or smartly, before the combat begins).

Once again, I'm not saying they're as good as any other magic type, just saying that you have your initiative bonus, it's just not on you. Aside from that, Conjurers DO need some serious rework IMHO, which is why I never argued you when you would talk about allowing Ally Spirits to learn sorcery through a Conjurer. I think that having an Ally that can cast spells, makes a Conjurer a much more equitable character (though at an ungodly expensive amount of Karma). But still worth it since the Aid Power is a Power Focus.

Sphynx
Anymage
Bandersnitch, nobody's saying that conjurers are equal to a full magician, just that they can handle about as well as a sorcerer... something that conjurer fans have pointed out. (Ironically, I don't think FASA/Wizkids planned things out this way, but some of their perks are there regardless.) And while I happen to agree that conjurers could use a little boost, I think you need to look at their strengths first, rather than blind spots or silly tactics. (And JFYI, I do happen to think that invoking/channeling is usually silly; I'd rather have the spirit attack by itself.) When fans of an archetype try to "balance" it, they usually end up wildly overcompensating.

And Sphynx, if you're willing to hemmorage karma, your ally spirit can give you spell defense. Conjurers can buy sorcery, they just can't use it. They still can have the rating, and from there, since the ally has the same sorcery rating the conjurer does with none of the limitations, it has however many dice of usable sorcery. Sadly, it can't learn any spells (which requires the use of sorcery on the part of the conjurer), but it's still a way to get some extra spell defense on you.
Bearclaw
Is the argument about whether or not canon allows conjurers to use spell defense or whether or not it would be a good idea to change the rules?

I've enjoyed playing a shamanic aspected conjurer detective. It was much better after he initiated and learned invoking. conjurers get shafted on spell defense. They should. They can't use sorcery. Spell defense is a specialization of sorcery. Only characters who can use sorcery can use spell defense. I think it's a great rule, and one that actually makes sense with the other rules, for a change. I can't think of any way that would make sense to change the rule to allow conjurers to use spell defense.
Sphynx
Conjur's can not use Sorcery. So, officially no, they can't use Spell Defense. Nor can they officially teach an Ally Spirit Sorcery.

But as I said before, I agree with the old Frum posts that allowed Allys of Conjurers to not only learn Sorcery, but to learn spells via that Sorcery as well. It balances a Conjurer. I'm not saying it's Canon, I'm saying I'd allow it.

Sphynx
Ol' Scratch
As I said before, simply allowing most, if not all spirits, to have Magical Guard as a power, as well as some kind of new one to boost Initiative relative to their Force, it makes up for the two major weaknesses they have compared to other magical characters.

Afterall, even a Sorcerer can defend against spirits thanks to spells like Spirit Bolt (not to mention most other spells, but they do have custom spirit-slaying spells as well).

As for Sorcery, yes, Conjurers cannot use it as an Active Skill themselves. But luckily for them, Ally Spirits can... they need merely "teach" it to them. Which they can do since the only requirement to learn Sorcery is to have a Magic attribute of 1 or higher. It's one of the spirits abilities, not the Conjurers. Why so many people around here insist that Conjurers should have the weakest of all Ally Spirits is beyond me. They certainly don't cripple Sorcerers by saying they can't use any spells that affect spirits or other such sillyness.
Zazen
QUOTE
Why so many people around here insist that Conjurers should have the weakest of all Ally Spirits is beyond me. They certainly don't cripple Sorcerers by saying they can't use any spells that affect spirits or other such sillyness.


I insist it because I dislike the flavor of a conjurer with the ability to cast spells, albeit in a roundabout way. I find it convenient that the books do not allow it.

That said, it's just a matter of taste. I don't think that allowing them is a tragedy or anything, it's just that I stick to the book and my own notions of a conjurer.
Anymage
QUOTE (Zazen)
I insist it because I dislike the flavor of a conjurer with the ability to cast spells, albeit in a roundabout way. I find it convenient that the books do not allow it.


Playing devil's advocate here, conjurers already have the ability to "cast spells", at least in a roundabout way. Shamanic conjurers have effective invisibility (Concealment), attack forms (Accident, Confusion), and other powers on call whenever they ask their spiritual buddies for help. Hermetics are kind of shafted on cool powers, but evil munchkinny ones can exploit some nifty loopholes*. I'm not up to looking up what other magical traditions have on tap, but I'm pretty sure they have tricks similar to shamans. And that's all ignoring the direct-to-spell "innate spell" tricks a couple of spirits have. So it's not like the idea is entirely unprecedented, even if letting ally spirits have the full range of sorcery would make them a bit too broad-based.

*Evil munchkinny hermetic conjurer tricks. Just because I feel like it. vegm.gif

QUOTE (P.187 @ BBB)
"Mundanes cannot use elementals to cast spells, but otherwise they recieve the same services as a mage: Aid Sorcery for spell defense, Physical Service and so on."


Sadly, the line "like an auxiliary spell pool" lets talented countermunchkinny GM's keep you from casting spells. (Although many of the weak ones can be persuaded when you point out that if you can get around the sorcery to pool limitation for Spell Defense, you should be able to get around it for other purposes.) If they don't notice this or can be browbeaten, you'll gleefully note that you're not a mundane, and can thus use elementals to cast spells.

Similarly, Aid Study falls under the general heading of "and so on", since no spells are actually being cast. That's right, you can learn spells now! (Fat lotta good it'll do you since you can't actually cast them without some finessing, but it's always nice to let your mundane chummer learn spells with a donated elemental, just to make anyone who sees his character sheet scratch their head. On the plus side, since you can learn spells this way, and you learn spells for your ally spirit, feel free to teach it all the non-health spells you feel like now.)

If your GM isn't paying too much attention, you can quibble about the definition of bound elementals. Is it the number of controlled elementals that you've summoned, or is it the number of elementals who call you master at the moment? (Boy, Wizkids needs to tighten their language up on this, and fast.) If it's the latter, all that stands between you and a small army of elementals is several thousand nuyen. Summon up a bunch, give each teammate as many as they have the Charisma to handle, and have everyone summon up a few on the first round of combat.

And finally, if you don't mind being the power behind the asskicker so much, note that absolutely nothing keeps you from commanding an elemental from obeying a shaman. A shaman with an elemental or two on call is always good for sheer shock value, and if she has totem bonuses to something other than health spells, Aid Sorcery can give her a nice synergistic perk in that direction.
Zazen
QUOTE (Anymage)
Similarly, Aid Study falls under the general heading of "and so on", since no spells are actually being cast. That's right, you can learn spells now! (Fat lotta good it'll do you since you can't actually cast them without some finessing, but it's always nice to let your mundane chummer learn spells with a donated elemental, just to make anyone who sees his character sheet scratch their head. On the plus side, since you can learn spells this way, and you learn spells for your ally spirit, feel free to teach it all the non-health spells you feel like now.)

There's a lot in your post I should comment on, but I trust that others will cover it so I'll limit myself to this one point. Learning a spell requires you to roll your sorcery skill. If you cannot use sorcery, as is the case for a mundane or conjurer, I don't see how you can do anything that requires a skill roll.
Playing Games
The Frumious Bandersnatch, after all 8 points of harden armor is worthless.Adding 4 points of body, makes you so weak!I mean, what, you only have around 8-12 in your physical stats..You are just worthless.

And you have a magic of of only 6 at grade 2, only have only roll 4d6+8-12, have a smart gun link, and make a passable decker...Weak!

Or ignore that, make a rigger, that has drones, and spirits, as sometimes a force 5 great form earth ellamental's earth moving ability is handy when you want to burry that tank comming after you.Maybe magical things are what you need, but you don't want to face that vampire ,blood spirit or what not yourself.

Also the pack of watchers is a worthless in slowing down magical threats, and helping your other spirits/mages/character to kill the threat.

You can spend a few days to get more fire power than swat team,So weak!

And you can never learn centering, because that would be using your brain! Can't have that!after all thinking is banned.
Ol' Scratch
<just rolls his eyes>

I never said Conjurers were useless or powerless. I said that they have significant weaknesses that *aren't* compensated by their abilities and perks; for every other magical option has their own unique abilities and perks, too. However, all the other choices also have the option to improve their Initiative naturally within their field, and all of the other magical options have the ability to defend against Conjuring (whereas only Conjurers who can summon spirits of the elements have the ability to defend against Sorcery).

Especially since just about everything you just said to "prove" your point applies to every other frelling type of magician in the game sans the Sorcerer, and only sans the Sorcerer regarding the spirit attack options. But at least the Sorcerer can throw down a Spirit Ball spell and wipe out all of that Conjurer's opposition with a whim -- which is a luxury Conjurers don't have against Sorcerers.

I realize that concept is so very hard for you to wrap around your head, but that doesn't change anything about the basic premise of this discussion.

Allowing Conjurers to have Ally Spirits that learn spells would greatly help fix them, as would giving the Magical Guard and "Haste" (for lack of a better term at this point) powers to most if not all of the spirits available for summoning. With the former, the Conjurer still has to find the Karma, nuyen, and time to not only formulate and summon an ally spirit but teach them the formulas for spells so that they can use them (at which point the ally spirit still has to resist drain and all the other difficulties that come from using their own ability to use Sorcery, which is wholly independant from the Conjurer's inability). With the latter, the Conjurer still has to invoke the spirit power and waste a service in doing so.

Regardless, as it stands, not only are Conjurers crippled in the Initiative and Magical Defense areas, but their Ally Spirits -- and spirits are their speciality -- are the weakest of all magicians capable of using Conjuring. Which, again, is supposed to be their specialty.

It's like advocating that Sorcerers shouldn't be able to use, oh, Control Manipulation spells for whatever BS reason you want to give. Sure, they can still use all the other Manipulation spells, but it's best to cripple them for no good reason other than an ill-perceived view of "game balance." And yes, it is exactly the same difference -- Conjurers have crippled Spirits, so naturally Sorcerers should have crippled Spells.
Zazen
Please, for the love of god, just walk away.

edit- too late frown.gif
Sphynx
Playing Games, that was just bad.... you should work on avoiding Sarcasm, especially when you're wrong. nyahnyah.gif

Like the Funk said, all your examples can apply to anyone. You don't show how Conjurers have a special advantage, just that 'yay' they can mix the same advantages that other class can mix.

Although I disagree with the Funk in allowing a Haste, I do agree with allowing Ally spirits to cast spells (teach them the Increased Reflexes), and Spell Defense (only Elements have the Magical Guard I believe, and I don't think they should personally).

But without an Ally spirit (or 2, or 3) Conjurers would still be very very weak compared to any other class. Adding in the same stuff you could add to a Sorcerer and calling it Balance isn't really balancing much at all is it?

Sphynx
Zazen
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
It's like advocating that Sorcerers shouldn't be able to use, oh, Control Manipulation spells for whatever BS reason you want to give. Sure, they can still use all the other Manipulation spells, but it's best to cripple them for no good reason other than an ill-perceived view of "game balance."

To be fair, I have not seen anyone in this thread say that a conjurers ally should lack sorcery because of game balance.
Playing Games
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
<just rolls his eyes>

I never said Conjurers were useless or powerless. I said that they have significant weaknesses that *aren't* compensated by their abilities and perks; for every other magical option has their own unique abilities and perks, too. However, all the other choices also have the option to improve their Initiative naturally within their field, and all of the other magical options have the ability to defend against Conjuring (whereas only Conjurers who can summon spirits of the elements have the ability to defend against Sorcery).

Especially since just about everything you just said to "prove" your point applies to every other frelling type of magician in the game sans the Sorcerer, and only sans the Sorcerer regarding the spirit attack options. But at least the Sorcerer can throw down a Spirit Ball spell and wipe out all of that Conjurer's opposition with a whim -- which is a luxury Conjurers don't have against Sorcerers.

I realize that concept is so very hard for you to wrap around your head, but that doesn't change anything about the basic premise of this discussion.

Allowing Conjurers to have Ally Spirits that learn spells would greatly help fix them, as would giving the Magical Guard and "Haste" (for lack of a better term at this point) powers to most if not all of the spirits available for summoning. With the former, the Conjurer still has to find the Karma, nuyen, and time to not only formulate and summon an ally spirit but teach them the formulas for spells so that they can use them (at which point the ally spirit still has to resist drain and all the other difficulties that come from using their own ability to use Sorcery, which is wholly independant from the Conjurer's inability). With the latter, the Conjurer still has to invoke the spirit power and waste a service in doing so.

Regardless, as it stands, not only are Conjurers crippled in the Initiative and Magical Defense areas, but their Ally Spirits -- and spirits are their speciality -- are the weakest of all magicians capable of using Conjuring. Which, again, is supposed to be their specialty.

It's like advocating that Sorcerers shouldn't be able to use, oh, Control Manipulation spells for whatever BS reason you want to give. Sure, they can still use all the other Manipulation spells, but it's best to cripple them for no good reason other than an ill-perceived view of "game balance." And yes, it is exactly the same difference -- Conjurers have crippled Spirits, so naturally Sorcerers should have crippled Spells.

Their weaknesses, of not casting spells.Yes, my points do not cover that weakness. But your points do not cover the Sorcerer weaknesses.A sorcer can cast spirit blast/ball whatever.but it will only get spirits,only those in the physical world and only those in the area of effect.Most of the time if the spirits are that close together, the target is dead, or the mage is being stupid with his resources.What happens when he runs into a vampire?I know, gets his ass handed to him!What does he do when he runs into a swat team?Or a tank?

Ally spirits.They are fun things, yes?But they are not the be all end all of a magical person.A Sorcerer can't even get one.

I am not saying that conjurors are without faults, I am saying the faults you are looking at are rather small.Yes, lack of spells is a big deal, but I would rather have no spells, than no spirits. Drain is not as big of problem for hermitic conjring as it for hemtetic sorcerrery.

As I recall ellementals can gaurd you against more than just spells.

intiative is a funny thing.When you have 10-18 spirits around you, doing your biding, you don't need to be that fast.

Oh and you can have a spell to make you faster, that lights you up like a bonfire and prevents you for going to many places you need to go to.

Wile having cyberware/bioware boosting can ironically be more stealthy than it's magical counters parts.
Playing Games
QUOTE (Sphynx)
Playing Games, that was just bad.... you should work on avoiding Sarcasm, especially when you're wrong. nyahnyah.gif

Like the Funk said, all your examples can apply to anyone. You don't show how Conjurers have a special advantage, just that 'yay' they can mix the same advantages that other class can mix.

Although I disagree with the Funk in allowing a Haste, I do agree with allowing Ally spirits to cast spells (teach them the Increased Reflexes), and Spell Defense (only Elements have the Magical Guard I believe, and I don't think they should personally).

But without an Ally spirit (or 2, or 3) Conjurers would still be very very weak compared to any other class. Adding in the same stuff you could add to a Sorcerer and calling it Balance isn't really balancing much at all is it?

Sphynx

The thing is that magically active characters that use spells care about every point of magic they have.loosing one point of magic is a huge deal. gesa are big things.

A hermetic conjurer doesn't need to worry about either that much. I have 6 gesa.big deal. so when I summon my elementals I have to wear, white robs, listen to drums,dance around wave a stick, and have mask on and only do it durring the day. big deal.I can do this.Aside from doing it in the day,I am not even limited at all as to how long or hard things will be.


what other magically active people can have 5.9 points of cyberware?

Yes others can mix, but they always trade something for doing it.If you do it wisely, you can make street sam that be good at both feilds.
TinkerGnome
There are a lot of points that could be made here, but I think breaking it down to basics and comparing the various magical options of a similar build point level is the best option.

Conjurers
The're the subject of the discussion so let's break out their strengths and weaknesses.

Strengths
Spellpoints are not as important as other limited mage options.
Can summon an entire set of elementals/spirits/loa.
Are relatively undependant on willpower (outside of learning conjuration).
Are generally not very restricted by the loss of a couple of points of magic.
Generally require little cash.
Generally require little karma.
Banish/controls spirits.

Weaknesses
No spell defense.
No easy initiative boost option.
Summoning spirits is an exclusive complex action at best, and a several hour ritual at worst.

Sorcerers
The natural opposite of the conjurer, sorcerers appear to be very common.

Strengths
Spell defense.
Easy access to initative boost.
Not dependant on charisma for anything magical.
Wide range of spells make this an attractive option.

Weaknesses
No spirit summoning, including watcher spirits.
Can't banish or control spirits.
Highly spell point intensive.
Very karma intensive.

Shamnists
A bit of both worlds, shamnists are nevertheless interesting, though not quite as common as either sorcerers or conjurers.

Strengths and Weaknesses
Both vary by totem. Some totems might not allow any spells at all. Others might not allow any spirits at all. At best, the PC can manage a useful class of spirits and a useful class of spells. However, these characters quite often lack access to health spells and thus easy initiative boosts.

Elementalists
Similar to shamanists, but with elementals.

Strengths and Weaknesses
Always lack health spells and thus initiative boosts, but each element does offer something. Elementals are generally cooler than spirits in combat, though their out of combat utility is often less.

Physical Adepts
The other option.

Strengths
Wide mix of powers, no spell points involved.
Easy initiative boost.
Generally karma independant.
Generally resource independant.

Weaknesses
Generally lacking astral perception.
No banishment/control of spirits.
No spell defense.
Suffer a lot for magic loss.
Ol' Scratch
Sorry, but sorcery-capable magicians don't care about their Magic Rating that much either (at least not from a mechanics point of view). Keep your Magic around 6 and you're good to go 99% of the time unless you have to really compensate for a small manhood by insisting on procuring insanely Force spells (and good luck on those learning TNs if you do).

Your conjurer, even if hermetic, is going to be pretty crippled on a run with that many geasa -- just as any other magician would be. Need to try and banish a spirit? Better hurry up and put your robes on, throw in the drumming miniCD, slip your dance shoes on, wave your stick, and stick out like a sore thumb (as if you weren't already) by wearing a stupid mask in the middle of a top secret facility. Same goes if you want to pull up a Watcher spirit, too.

And every other magical character can have 5.9 points of cyberware (which, again, you're still being utterly and wholly oblivious to the aforementioned point about natural Initiative boosts within their OWN fields) if they're willing to cripple themselves as much as you foolishly have.

Strip away the Increased Reflexes spell from Sorcerers and they, too, can get just as much cyberware and just as many geasa as you can to "compensate" for that loss. But they don't need to, because like most other character types, they have a natural ability to augment their reflexes within the scope of their field.
TinkerGnome
The only groggy really slammed by magic loss (cyber and otherwise) is the adept. The other groups all keep their powers, though they can't use them at as high a force. Conjurers, on a whole, seem to be less harmed by this than sorcerers, because of the way in which the force of spirits is used vs. the way in which the force of spells is used.
Ol' Scratch
I don't think your comparison between the big three (I'm ignoring Shamanists and Elementalists for the most part as they have the best/worst of both worlds). Here's my quick breakdown...

Magic Loss affects all three types equally; the Force/Level of Spirits, Spells, and Adept Powers are all Magic dependant. All three are Karma intensive (Sorcerers want more spells, Conjurers want better Ally Spirits, Adepts want more Adept Powers, all three benefit from Initiation and Foci). All three are relatively Resource friendly (except in certain cases) except when dealing with Foci.

Conjurers

Strengths:

Conjuring [summoning/banishing].
Can more easily obtain foci, initiate, and/or additional Build Points during character creation.
Astral Perception.
Ally Spirits.

Weaknesses:

No Sorcery [spells/spell defense].
Limited ability to compensate against hostile Sorcery.
No Dice Pool.
No natural Initiative opportunities.
Limited number of Spirits.
Must be in proper domain or near a circle to use major aspect of Conjuring.
Crippled Ally Spirits.
Limited Metamagic Talents (no Anchoring, Clensing, Quickening, Reflecting, Shielding or that dueling one from SOTA).
Requires Karma and Magic Rating points to create and improve Ally Spirit(s).
Hermetic Conjurers require expensive Libraries.
Hermetic Conjurers require expensive Conjuring Materials.
No Astral Projection.

Sorcerers

Strenghts:

Sorcery [spells/spell defense].
Spell Pool.
More opportunities to use Spell Points.
Diverse ability to compensate against hostile Conjuring.
Natural Initiative opportunities.
Diverse selection of Spells with no limitations.
Diverse selection of Metamagic Techniques (save for Invoking and Channeling).
Astral Perception.

Weaknesses:

No Conjuring [summoning/banishing].
Requires Karma to learn additional spells (of which they have a myriad selection anyway).
Hermetic Sorcerers require expensive Libraries.
No Astral Projection.

Adepts

Strengths:

Myriad selection of powers.
No drain (save for select cases).
Natural Initiative opportunities.
Unique ability to use Centering on a diverse group of non-Magic Skills.
Option to gain access to Sorcery and Conjuring.

Weaknesses:

No Sorcery/Conjuring [but can gain access to both during creation].
Limited Astral Perception [but can gain access].
More lost due to Magic Loss [but can be compensated for with Geasa].
Require Karma to gain additional Adept Powers.
Very limited selection of Metamagic Techniques.
No Astral Projection.
Sphynx
Just an FYI, Conjurers should keep their Magic rating at about 5 (especially with a 10 Charisma, since you can ignore Light Drain if you get the Trauma dampener, so all the Force 5's you want). Sorcerers should keep a Magic rating of about 6 (really, there's no need for any higher of a Force).

So, Conjurers may get 1 additional Magic Point loss than Sorcerers without being truly effected. Geasa's are going to seriously effect either class just as much.

That put aside. Look at these (to narrow Funk's list into a more comprehensible viewpoint).

Sorcerer's defense against spirits: Combat spells.
Conjurer's defense against spells: None.

With skillful use, nearly any Spell can be mimicked to an extent with Spirits, even if it's waiting for an Ally Spirit to gain Sorcery (nowhere dos it say a Conjurer can't learn Sorcery, just "can not use", and nowhere does it say that at Ally Creation, the additional spells have to be in the Conjurer's spell list.*there's something alot of people don't know*)

Any power a Spirit shows, can be mimicked to an extent by spells. So the point to argue is not going to be about the abilities between the 2, only the defense against each other.

Due to this, I think Conjurer's are doing perfectly fine as long as you allow an Ally to learn spells (which is Canon, if only by interpretation). I even allow them to learn new spells post-creation, for the sake of balance.

I accept that a Conjurer has no defense against spells because I think that's fair due to the fact Sorcerers don't have a 'friends in combat' setup. wink.gif

However, all that aside, the effort needed by a Conjurer to duplicate effects is usually alot more than for a Sorcerer, so I still think Conjurers are the weakest of the bunch, just not enough so that they require a bunch of extra rules/powers. Ally spirit is enough (and since no Sorcerer gets these portable Power Foci, it's VERY fair).

Sphynx
Zazen
QUOTE (Sphynx)
Sorcerer's defense against spirits: Combat spells.
Conjurer's defense against spells: None.

With skillful use, nearly any Spell can be mimicked to an extent with Spirits, even if it's waiting for an Ally Spirit to gain Sorcery (nowhere dos it say a Conjurer can't learn Sorcery, just "can not use", and nowhere does it say that at Ally Creation, the additional spells have to be in the Conjurer's spell list.*there's something alot of people don't know*)

It's funny that one potential defense against spells shows up in the very next paragraph, yet you insist that they have none nyahnyah.gif

There are plenty more, too.
Ol' Scratch
Which is why I put "limited" instead of "none" in my list. As opposed to the diverse options a Sorcerer has against spirits.
Zazen
I can think of only two ways for a sorcerer to deal with spirits (combat spells and the astral barrier spell), whereas I can think of a lot of tactics that a conjurer may employ. I'm curious to know what else you've thought of to make them so diverse.

To be clear, I haven't made any conclusions about which is more powerful or any such thing, I'm just asking for more information.
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