Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Some questions.
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Desade
I've been waiting to get my posting approval for a while now so I have about six dozen questions, but since I can't remember them all I'll go with the ones off the top of my head.

1. Paper money, does it get used, ever? Given the new wireless world it seems like it is even less likely that you'd see paper money being used, but I'm a bit loath to keep giving my SINless players certified credsticks time and time again. As a sub question to this, how does the UCAS and other countries back their cash flow, is still mountains of gold hidden away somewhere?

2. With the adept ability Power Throw, is there a limit to the number of levels you can take with it (not including the standard limits on adept powers via no more levels than your magic rating). It seems to me if an adept initiated enough times he'd do more damage with a paper clip than he could with say a railgun.

3. Who or what the hell is Tamanous?

4. What happened to Cross Applied Technologies?

5. This next question is more of a technical rules thing involving concealment while firing. I understand the basic rules of a surprise attack, but how do you deal with a sniper in good cover wearing a chameleon suit and a Walter? I had my players on a run where they ambushed some Halloweeners selling BTLs out of a park. The team's sniper moved into a concealed position with a bead on the entire crew, and he began merrily popping heads left and right. His gun was silenced, he was practically invisible, so I just made the ruling that every time he fired past the first shot they got a chance to roll perception to see if they could find him. Unfortunately the average ganger is dumb as a block of plasticrete, so he killed all of them without any difficulty. I hate telling my players "no you can't do that because it's too powerful" but they're starting to rely on his sniping skills way too much.

6. Orichalcum Bone Lacing, is it possible? For years my friends and I have been joking around about doing it to an adept and turning their body into a weapon foci, are there any hard and fast rules about why this isn't possible? We're not really a power gaming bunch, but the idea amuses us.
Adarael
1) Very rarely does paper money get used. Cert sticks are the most common runner payment, but consider paying them in gold, jewels, untracable programs, gear, or things like that. As for how money is 'backed', it's 'backed' by the power of belief. Even today, the gold standard isn't used by the US - we have too much money in circulation for that.

2) Yes. Yes they can. But that's at the retarded end of karma expenditures. But that's also the power of kung fu. Consider Toss-Lee of the Power Throw vs Jet Killinstuff of the Handgun Mastery. You can get benefits to both.

3) Organlegging shadow industry. Chop you up and sell you off. Scary guys.

4) Lucien Cross died in a plane crash, and CATCo was parted out among 3 or so AAA corps. I believe they were NeoNet, Ares and Renraku.

5) Sniping is scary, as it should be. What will save your ass from a sniper is planning, knowing your terrain, taking 'full cover', spirits & drones, and running away like bitches. If you're getting sniped, you get behind cover ASAP, no matter who you are.

6) Theoretically, yes. This assumes that the bone lacing has a physical shape outside the body, rather than simply being placed on atom by atom. And it wouldn't be pure orichalchum, but a weapon focus bone lacing. But you'd need to make it and bond it before installing it, and the amount of money that'd cost is so astronomically high that only the truly retarded would even consider it. We're talking like, millions of nuyen here. You'd need a custom set of bone lacing, a custom enchanting job on it (and all the costs that entails, given the highly processed nature of the focus), a custom installation and custom medical care. Not worth it, under any circumstances.
lunchbox311
QUOTE (Adarael)


4) Lucien Cross died in a plane crash, and CATCo was parted out among 3 or so AAA corps. I believe they were NeoNet, Ares and Renraku.


Most of it was Ares. Damien Knight and Lucien Cross had a feud that lasted many years (they were both part of Echo Mirage) and DK wanted CATCO for a long time. When Lucien died, his younger brother I believe took it over and could not keep up.

Check out System Failure for more info. I am actually running that crash campaign right now (with 4 ed rules.)
Wiseman
QUOTE
6. Orichalcum Bone Lacing, is it possible? For years my friends and I have been joking around about doing it to an adept and turning their body into a weapon foci, are there any hard and fast rules about why this isn't possible? We're not really a power gaming bunch, but the idea amuses us.


Hate to be the naysayer, but I don't see how considering the character paid essence for bone lacing and therefore it isn't an object subject to enchanting, though you could rule the special properties of orichalcum allow it, you'd be opening up all kinds of weird cybermagic stuff.

Also, the essence cost varies by the type of material (as does its bonus), so what bonus (if any) and essence cost would OC bone lacing give considering its a composite.

Last, doesn't killing hands adept power make him similar to a weapon foci naturally anyway.

Still a cool idea but usually cyberware & magic aren't good playmates. Though nothing is stopping the character from making an adept with killing hands and mystic armor or rapid healing or somesuch and explain that the character gained his powers through just such a process.
Dashifen
Regarding snipers, there's always blind fire, too. Even a ganger might be able to watch his buddy's head explode and, if he's not running away, he might be spraying bullets in the general direction of the shot. Have a ganger with a machine pistol or SMG and he could lay down suppressing fire in the general area of the sniper (-6 for blind fire). If nothing else, it might cause the sniper to take some cover on his action and, thus, not kill more gangers.
lunchbox311
QUOTE (Dashifen @ Jun 7 2007, 05:15 PM)
Regarding snipers, there's always blind fire, too.  Even a ganger might be able to watch his buddy's head explode and, if he's not running away, he might be spraying bullets in the general direction of the shot.  Have a ganger with a machine pistol or SMG and he could lay down suppressing fire in the general area of the sniper (-6 for blind fire).  If nothing else, it might cause the sniper to take some cover on his action and, thus, not kill more gangers.

That is if said ganger can tell which direction his buddy exploded from. Hard to assess in less than 2 seconds.

Also if you use blind fire you use intuition (which is lower than agility on almost every gun bunny) and those gangers probably have zero dice to throw at that point unless using edge (and get a whopping 2 dice at best I suppose.)

Suppressive fire is a good way to do it though. Keep the head down and retreat. That depends on the composure of the group though. I see that more with trained soldiers than joe ork gang banger.
sunnyside
3. Lotsa Ghouls too.

5. a couple things on snipers. For one using full/gymnastic dodge doesn't neccesarily depend on seeing where the shots are coming from. You're just dodging and weaving to make it harder to put a bead on you. And if they're being sniped expect them to be doing that. Also movement is 25 meters per turn(typically). Meaning that chars can get a lot of distance covered and be under cover or into a building pretty fast.

Also don't forget snipers have to spend a take aim action to use any image magnification system. (p 141). And since the targets typically are moving after the first shot it means their ROF is effectivly halved. (also means he can't get two guys right away, first to hit, then zoom on the second, and if the second target moves the sniper will have to zoom again before fireing).

Next you can typically tell where a shot has come from. Usually by seeing a bullet slam into a wall or something (possibly after going through someones head). That would only give direction however. Also note that the char may not be as well hidden against thermo, or especially astra sight(in which he litteraly glows).

If your chars are regularly ambushing gangers expect them to use the sniper a lot. Maybe try different missions, though still let the sniper have some fun.

Finally remember that all to often the sniper is all alone out there. So when a spirit gets sent out to his general areas with a remote service of "kill the guy with the big gun" they can get in trouble fast. They might also have someone run accross them.

6. As I recall from M&M bone lacing is done via nanotechnology. With the atoms roughtly being placed and fused indaviadually. I would doubt that process would work with Orichalcum due to it's magical nature.
lunchbox311
QUOTE (sunnyside)
Also don't forget snipers have to spend a take aim action to use any image magnification system. (p 141). And since the targets typically are moving after the first shot it means their ROF is effectivly halved. (also means he can't get two guys right away, first to hit, then zoom on the second, and if the second target moves the sniper will have to zoom again before fireing).

Wouldn't that mean the sniper is REALLY far away. If I recall the short range on a sniper rifle is 150 meters and with smartlinks it would not be hard to do the shots "unscoped" as long as you can actually see that far... even easier if he is within 50 meters.


But the gymnastics dodge is true. Also... I believe defenders get 3 extra dice if they are running.
hobgoblin
5. get the gangers some favors from the local rat shaman wink.gif
Wiseman
5) Most gangers wouldn't leave themselves completely exposed in the open. Take for instance modern day drug dealers who in fact use children to move their product. Its like entry level into the gang. The major bangers don't hang out where they are an easy target, they use chumps to do the deals knowing that if you hurt their stooges they'll exact revenge.

Its not unfeasible to say they probably could afford a drone or two to cover the air above their "money spot" and most likely the drone would have sensors to aid in spotting trouble long before it got there. Or at the very least a lookout with good cybereyes and a decent perception (its his life and role in the gang to spot trouble).

Also, soon as the sniper took his first shot, a halfway street smart ganger would drop a smoke or thermal smoke gernade to cover their exit. Manholes/Sewers/Dumpsters covering a doorway make decent concealed escape routes.

Most gangers would also select areas that had a few things in mind. 1) easy escape route. 2) visibility in multiple angles to avoid ambush and 3) some sort of cover (wall, vehicle, etc.) readily available.

Having a magic friend isn't impossible either as mr. hobgoblin mentions.

If the sniper is using his commlink for communciation there is the possiblity of it being traced/triangulated/gps.

And remember, picking off gangers in the street for no reason than a little illegal trade of BTL's means the sniper should shoot himself for the same reasons. He does after all run the shadows too and theres nothing legal about that. Under Notoriety it specifically states that it can be used by GMs to curb amoral behavior, gunbunny hijinks, and outrageous body counts. And if the gangers are using a kid to hand out the chips and the sniper shoots him (a relatively innocent victim of his environment) he definitely should suffer a bad reputation, especially from street contacts.

No matter what set-up you come up with remember this, gangers live/sleep/eat on the street and survival is their life. No cushy penthouse or trid shows for them. Its the business of the fittest and they shouldn't be consider stupid just because they're gangers and snipers have been around since guns were invented.





Kyoto Kid
...1. At least up until the crash, hard currency was still commonplace in the UK. If you pulled out a credstick to pay for a pint at the pub it usually resulted in a funny look from the barkeep. Not sure if this still stands since I have been unable to find little if any post crash info on Britain.

However, considering they had bucked the trend all the way up through the 60s, it wouldn't surprise me if you still needed to carry a few quid in your pocket when out on the town.
Abstruse
As to the orichalcum bone lacing...even if it were possible, it would be INSANELY expensive. Do you know how much money orichalcum costs? Dunkelzahn offered up a 5 pound brick of it in his will and even AAA corporations like Ares are tripping over themselves to get it. And how much would it take to put over your entire skeletal system?

The Abstruse One
WearzManySkins
For better insights into what Snipers can do, read White Feather the autobiography of Carlos Hathcock, USMC sniper VN.

A sniper should not be alone, but if he uses more than one shot from a given location, then he is body bag waiting to be zipped. smile.gif

So if you miss that first shot, move to next fall back location. If you have no fall back location, again body bag waiting to be zipped.

Orichalcum is way too rare to be used in such a "wasted" manner like bone lacing, besides you would be the number one target for Organ Legger's too. smile.gif
hobgoblin
about money, i suspect that paper money is more or less gone.

but metal money may still be around as it can be stored for ages, and have a built in value based on its metal content. sure, those paper bills are supposed to hold a thread of valuable metal to, but in SR, unlikely...
Desade
QUOTE (Wiseman)
5) Most gangers wouldn't leave themselves completely exposed in the open. Take for instance modern day drug dealers who in fact use children to move their product. Its like entry level into the gang. The major bangers don't hang out where they are an easy target, they use chumps to do the deals knowing that if you hurt their stooges they'll exact revenge.

Its not unfeasible to say they probably could afford a drone or two to cover the air above their "money spot" and most likely the drone would have sensors to aid in spotting trouble long before it got there. Or at the very least a lookout with good cybereyes and a decent perception (its his life and role in the gang to spot trouble).

Also, soon as the sniper took his first shot, a halfway street smart ganger would drop a smoke or thermal smoke gernade to cover their exit. Manholes/Sewers/Dumpsters covering a doorway make decent concealed escape routes.

Most gangers would also select areas that had a few things in mind. 1) easy escape route. 2) visibility in multiple angles to avoid ambush and 3) some sort of cover (wall, vehicle, etc.) readily available.

Having a magic friend isn't impossible either as mr. hobgoblin mentions.

If the sniper is using his commlink for communciation there is the possiblity of it being traced/triangulated/gps.

And remember, picking off gangers in the street for no reason than a little illegal trade of BTL's means the sniper should shoot himself for the same reasons. He does after all run the shadows too and theres nothing legal about that. Under Notoriety it specifically states that it can be used by GMs to curb amoral behavior, gunbunny hijinks, and outrageous body counts. And if the gangers are using a kid to hand out the chips and the sniper shoots him (a relatively innocent victim of his environment) he definitely should suffer a bad reputation, especially from street contacts.

No matter what set-up you come up with remember this, gangers live/sleep/eat on the street and survival is their life. No cushy penthouse or trid shows for them. Its the business of the fittest and they shouldn't be consider stupid just because they're gangers and snipers have been around since guns were invented.

First I better explain the set up of the situation at hand. They were hired to investigate thefts from their fixer's warehouse, all signs pointed to the Halloweeners. They had a suspected location of where they were holding the stolen goods, and they wanted to infiltrate it. They decided they were going to do this by getting some authentic Halloweener outfits by waxing a couple of them. They found some at a park, dead of the night, dealing BTLs out the back of a van. The sniper took his position behind some trees with an active chameleon suit, and started popping heads.

Now how ganger dealers go about distributing their goods is a matter of opinion. I chose this because it made sense to me, and I'd rather they didn't run around killing ganger childern. They were doing what they were paid to do, that is what Shadowrunning is about, so I don't think we should really drag morals into this. As far as shamans, smoke grenades, and other such nifty devices of protection, I don't think random dealers are going to be packing things like that. I run my games as a sytle of what makes sense, not what would pose a challenge. The first time they try to storm a corp complex they'll be very sad.

I understand the rules about being able to dodge even if you don't know where the fire is coming from, and running for cover, etc. However the sniper didn't have any reason to use his scope since he was in short range (which is up to 150 meters, that is a lot of distance), and was smartlinked. Longarms skill of 4, agility of 6 (thanks to some ware), smartlink, specilization in sniper rifles, he was rolling a ton of dice. Now more to the point, I'm looking for some valid reasons within the rules of the game to nerf him a bit without having to out and out say "you can't do this because I said so". As it stands, with his current weapon, the Walter, there is nothign stopping him from continuing his sniper work, or even running around in a close quarters gun fight with his rifle basically destroying everything in his path.
Wiseman
QUOTE
about money, i suspect that paper money is more or less gone.

but metal money may still be around as it can be stored for ages, and have a built in value based on its metal content. sure, those paper bills are supposed to hold a thread of valuable metal to, but in SR, unlikely...


Page 36 & 38 "Show me the Money" says almost exactly that, except in some bass ackward places they still use hard currency (but you wouldn't want to go there or drink the water) and further elaborates on "Corp Script" in an attempt of even more control over their employees. Yay Fuchi-bucks!
Glyph
I wouldn't make the sniper completely useless, but sniping takes a good bit of prep time, and people who are having an illicit meet with someone else will know the spots to check. Likewise, corporate security will be set up to avoid sniping (at least on the receiving end). And once a sniper takes out a target, everyone else should shout "Sniper!" and scatter for cover - and the sniper should get out of his current position quickly. Snipers are vulnerable to sat-link imaging, flying drones, and spirits, both for being spotted and for possibly being attacked.

Generally, a sniper should get one good shot - they only become unbalancing if you let them stay behind cover plunking one bad guy after another. As far as using the gun outside of a sniping role, simply remember that a long, bulky gun is a lot harder to conceal and transport than a pistol in a concealable holster. It's only practical in areas like the Barrens or lower-security neighborhoods (and even in the latter, someone spotted with a sniper rifle is a lot more likely to get LoneStar called on him). And while it does decent damage, it's only better than a pistol - it's not as good as full auto weapons or explosive grenades.
WhiskeyMac
Close Quarter combat with a sniper rifle is a fucking laugh. Sniper Rifles are at least 3 feet long and with CQC would definitely bumped that scope around and jar the barrel loose.
Desade
QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)
Close Quarter combat with a sniper rifle is a fucking laugh. Sniper Rifles are at least 3 feet long and with CQC would definitely bumped that scope around and jar the barrel loose.

It is specifically stated in the book that the Walter doesn't suffer from those problems. And I'm not talking about bashing people in the skull with it, I'm talking about using it in room to room combat, etc.
Aaron
I see your sniper and raise you astral reconnaissance.

toturi
There is no canon difference(other than the normal differences betwen other weapons) between using a Sniper Rifle and using a Pistol or any other weapon for CQB. Unless the weapon itself has special rules for use in CQB, there should be no canon penalties.

A sniper rifle is Forbidden. No permits are issued for them. They are difficult to Conceal. Game mechanics wise, a sniper needs 1 simple action to kill 1 person. He has 2 simple actions, so he should have, in effect, 2 good shots. Security forces could be set up in such a way that it discourages snipers but personally I'd pit the sniper's (or anyone helping him) Tactics-related skill + Appropriate Attribute vs the security team's Tactics + Attribute. The person with the better roll gets a + modifier while the person with a lower roll gets a - modifier to their relevant rolls.

Remember even if your GM rules that auras are astral beings(really stretching it in my opinion), then a sniper still gets his Stealth skill + Agility(? hey, them's the rules) against the Astral Recon's Int+Assensing.
Demon_Bob
Due to the size of sniper rifles I see then as needing to be set or braced in some way. Requiring extra time.

Although someone with a sniper rifle would go up in target priority.
Also someone with an assult weapon, mages. . . okay all runners are equal targets.

Although the players finding out that there is a second sniper or two with chameleon suit and a Walter, can be amusing.
WearzManySkins
A sniper will need a "hide" to do his work, in areas with ratings of C or better than means getting on top of buildings will be that much harder.

In places like the barrens yes a roof top "hide" is very doable with very little effort.

Again basic sniper tactical rules, one shot one kill. No matter how many actions you may get that round, after the first shot, kill or not, time to move to the next "hide".
If you stay to play, long term your bag will get zipped. smile.gif

In most of my games since I have read some of the interesting sniper books out there, if a sniper stays, he will take a beating at the very least. But some sniper teams, ie one sniper and a spotter mage to cast those gravy spells Enhance Aim and Hawkeye. Also to provide watchers/spirits for astral overwatch.
Desade
I appreciate all the input you guys are giving, but a lot of it is opinion, and "in the real world" type explinations. That kind of stuff doesn't fly at my table, because using phrases like "realistically" and "in the real world" opens the door to too many debates on other issues I'd like to avoid. Boiled down, a sniper rifle is an SA weapon, there is nothing in the rules that states that they can't take two shots per initiative phase. The only time I ever forsee this guy taking an action to aim is if he were making a really hard shot. I accept a lot of the responsibility of unleashing this beast of a character on my game since I helped create him. All I can say is, next time you have a player take wired reflexes, a smart link, a sniper rifle, and a chameleon suit, be wary...very wary.
WearzManySkins
biggrin.gif Well I guess you could use a npc like Sloe Gyn, to make life interesting for your wired sniper. smile.gif

If that is all he has,,,,<sound of body bag being zipped up> rotfl.gif
Blink
QUOTE (Desade @ Jun 7 2007, 04:39 PM)
Unfortunately the average ganger is dumb as a block of plasticrete, so he killed all of them without any difficulty. I hate telling my players "no you can't do that because it's too powerful" but they're starting to rely on his sniping skills way too much.

The problem with snipers is that they are vulnerable, and they can get tunnel visioned. You can exploit that. In the military they typically deploy sniper teams in pairs. One person actually takes the shot and the other spots for targets and watches his back, which solves the problem of tunnel vission. If your group isn't doing this, maybe you could set up a counter-ambush where some goons sneak up behind the sniper and knife or kidnap him while everyone else is otherwise distracted.
WhiskeyMac
I know that canon doesn't make a difference between a sniper rifle and a holdout pistol for CQC but a little common sense should say that a GM shouldn't allow a PC to use a sniper rifle in CQC. A long hallway, probably, but a 10' x 5' room, probably not.

I can see a sniper using their 2 simple actions to make "from the hip" shots but then why would they be called a sniper. Snipers take careful shots that incapacitate and demoralize their opponents. Any Joe Smoe can make a long shot but it takes a sniper to make those really unbelievable and tide-turning long shots.

You might wanna ask the character why they chose the sniper rifle to begin with. If it was just for AP then you should penalize the PC but if they actually picked the sniper rifle for story purposes then you should allow it. A smart sniper wouldn't use their rifle all the time. It's a specialized tool, not a be all end all weapon.

Just limit sniping opportunities. Have things happen inside or in tight quarters with limited lines of sight. Have mages use astral perception/projection and have spirits start searching immediately after the first shot. Ultrasound still works great against Camo suits and sensors are cheap enough that a PC shouldn't feel invincible with just a Camo suit.
hobgoblin
no need to cry wolf only because the guy killed some gangers for their clothes. gangers are runner fodder unless they come in bulk. now organized crime, corps or governments are a different story.

also, after the first couple of security that run into a "invisible" threat i would have them pull sensors, area effect weapons and magic depending.

as for your team, i fear they may well be going at it the wrong way. poping heads are messy. now they need to get the blood of those costumes. also, it can be that said costumes have personal touches known to the people guarding the suspected location, or that they start being questioned about the gang given that they are not recognized by the guards. hell, its may be that there is some kind of handshake involved wink.gif

all in all, the clothes do not make the man...

hell, if the "sniper" tries to sneak in under cover of the suit, make him roll to avoid bumping into something or have a door closed in his face and so on. being invisible have just as many problems as it has perks.

and parking a troll or dwarf at the door screws up his cover unless said suit have thermal dampers. those two races have natural ir vision iirc.
Desade
QUOTE (hobgoblin)
no need to cry wolf only because the guy killed some gangers for their clothes. gangers are runner fodder unless they come in bulk. now organized crime, corps or governments are a different story.

also, after the first couple of security that run into a "invisible" threat i would have them pull sensors, area effect weapons and magic depending.

as for your team, i fear they may well be going at it the wrong way. poping heads are messy. now they need to get the blood of those costumes. also, it can be that said costumes have personal touches known to the people guarding the suspected location, or that they start being questioned about the gang given that they are not recognized by the guards. hell, its may be that there is some kind of handshake involved wink.gif

all in all, the clothes do not make the man...

hell, if the "sniper" tries to sneak in under cover of the suit, make him roll to avoid bumping into something or have a door closed in his face and so on. being invisible have just as many problems as it has perks.

and parking a troll or dwarf at the door screws up his cover unless said suit have thermal dampers. those two races have natural ir vision iirc.

Actually only one of them was going to go into the ganger hide out, the adept with facial sculpt, vocal control, and skin color changing magic powers. He pretty much is the ultimate face man.
hobgoblin
well even the best face will foul up when he does not know the secret handshake smokin.gif
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Desade)
Actually only one of them was going to go into the ganger hide out, the adept with facial sculpt, vocal control, and skin color changing magic powers. He pretty much is the ultimate face man.

Sweet, I have that character. Brb, I have to go tell Shadow my char is the ultimate Face.
Grinder
Oh come on, that's not a big surprise. biggrin.gif
Glyph
QUOTE (Desade)
I appreciate all the input you guys are giving, but a lot of it is opinion, and "in the real world" type explinations. That kind of stuff doesn't fly at my table, because using phrases like "realistically" and "in the real world" opens the door to too many debates on other issues I'd like to avoid. Boiled down, a sniper rifle is an SA weapon, there is nothing in the rules that states that they can't take two shots per initiative phase. The only time I ever forsee this guy taking an action to aim is if he were making a really hard shot. I accept a lot of the responsibility of unleashing this beast of a character on my game since I helped create him. All I can say is, next time you have a player take wired reflexes, a smart link, a sniper rifle, and a chameleon suit, be wary...very wary.

A chameleon suit hides what it covers, not what you're holding in your hands. Not as big a deal if it's a pistol, but a long rifle will stand out quite a bit more.

But honestly, this character is far from invincible. Don't think he's overpowered because he mows through the mooks! Wait until he runs into stiffer opposition. Sniping from cover or hiding with a chameleon suit are good ways to get the drop on the enemy, but after that initial "free" shot, the character will be dodging bullets with the rest of the group.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Grinder)
Oh come on, that's not a big surprise. 



yeah, well the suprise is that it's not the troll face Cash. No, it's the elf Nightshade , all assassin-ish and surly. Crazy elf ninja.
hobgoblin
hmm, crazy troll ninja, now thats a concept silly.gif
fistandantilus4.0
Seen one before. Just one. He well... he didin't make it very far through Ninja school though. Kept ripping his pajamas.
toturi
QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)
I know that canon doesn't make a difference between a sniper rifle and a holdout pistol for CQC but a little common sense should say that a GM shouldn't allow a PC to use a sniper rifle in CQC. A long hallway, probably, but a 10' x 5' room, probably not.

I can see a sniper using their 2 simple actions to make "from the hip" shots but then why would they be called a sniper. Snipers take careful shots that incapacitate and demoralize their opponents. Any Joe Smoe can make a long shot but it takes a sniper to make those really unbelievable and tide-turning long shots.

You might wanna ask the character why they chose the sniper rifle to begin with. If it was just for AP then you should penalize the PC but if they actually picked the sniper rifle for story purposes then you should allow it. A smart sniper wouldn't use their rifle all the time. It's a specialized tool, not a be all end all weapon.

Just limit sniping opportunities. Have things happen inside or in tight quarters with limited lines of sight. Have mages use astral perception/projection and have spirits start searching immediately after the first shot. Ultrasound still works great against Camo suits and sensors are cheap enough that a PC shouldn't feel invincible with just a Camo suit.

Why shouldn't he? You are projecting Real World common sense into the game world, when the game world common sense tells your PC that there's no difference. A smart PC will use the best weapon at hand. Why punish the PC/player for choosing the most effective weapon if the rules say there's no drawback?

Descade:

My group and I(since I GM) play the game as close to the written rules as possible. I can understand your standpoint.

However, the sniper is more than making the shots. He usually does not have the Body+Armor or the Reaction to soak or to dodge the return fire. He needs to stay invisible. He'd need enough hits on his Stealth related rolls to foil any attempt to find him and he had better have high Stealth as well as high Firearms. The camo suit should only affect non-Thermo vision based Perception tests. Sound based tests, Thermovision based tests do not suffer from the negative mods provided by the camo suit.

Even if the shot was silenced, it is not difficult to determine where it is coming from (only 2 hits needed for silenced gunfire). Making 2 shots gives people twice the opportunity to find out where it is coming from - you might want to tell your player that.
sunnyside
First off that char isn't the sort of combat monster the rest of us worry about. longarms(4) agi(6) + spec and smartlink is only 14 die. A munchkin sniper would be into the 20's. And a real powergamer would be a mage anyway (my sniper rifle is manaball!)


The situation that you provided was your snipers chance to shine. Nothing wrong with that. Just make sure other players get time too.

The only sniper issue you have is the tendency of players to use the things as pistols. And that really stems from the fact that, RAW, you can drive a two meter wide car down a one meter wide ally. Never says you can't. I also don't think it says you can't snipe at extreme range standing up and holding the Walther one handed and sideways for that gangster effect.

In these cases it's the GMs job to impose some measure of realism while (generally) holding to raw as much as possible.

So in the case of a too big car or a sniper rifle in the ductwork you just have to say it won't fit. Players usually handle this reasonably well.

Tricker cases are when there is a clear disadvantage in a situation but no RAW rule specifying it exists. Personally I tend to apply the "working conditions" modifiers as I see fit. Trying to use a sniper rifle in tight spaces like a cramped office space would be distracting (-1), cluttered/tight spaces like a viney jungle would be "poor", any situation where you have to fire the weapon from a position other than firmly gripped with both hands up against the shoulder would be "bad" -3, and trying to fire at a target that's in your face in melee would be terrible in addition to the usual penalty(maybe reduce a little if a smartlink is active becuase then you can move your grip up and still fire).

Though a Walther would handle the melee reasonably well with it's solid construction.
kzt
QUOTE (WhiskeyMac)
Any Joe Smoe can make a long shot but it takes a sniper to make those really unbelievable and tide-turning long shots.

This is SR, where any idiot can make those shots because RANGE DOESN'T MATTER! That's a bug, not a feature. The idiocy of how scopes work in SR is one of the key reasons why clever players depend on long-range shooters. It's easy, and they work really well. It's damn hard in SR to spot a guy 650 meters away, and anyone with a few levels in longarm and a scope can shoot very effectively from there. The guys being shot at have to get 2-3 success at -3 to -5 dice (it's a mere -3 once they start searching for him), so it is hugely less likely that they will spot him than the chance that he will successfully shoot them while they are taking their "observe in detail" action.

The answer is simple; at minimum always apply the range mods whether someone is using a scope or not, I'd suggest doubling the range mods myself. A minus 6 for extreme range means a decent character with decent skills (char 4 + skill 4, plus smartlink) has 4 dice unless they "take aim" instead of 10 dice without aiming. That's an average of one success instead of 3 successes. Long range shooting is supposed to be hard.
toturi
It is a feature, not a bug. You can jolly well have those Vision Mags installed on your contacts and then you won't have the Perception penalties when you look for the sniper.
kzt
QUOTE (toturi)
It is a feature, not a bug. You can jolly well have those Vision Mags installed on your contacts and then you won't have the Perception penalties when you look for the sniper.

Sure you won't. Try driving to work looking through the cores of paper towel rolls. Magnification reduces the field of view.
Aaron
QUOTE (kzt)
QUOTE (toturi @ Jun 8 2007, 02:14 AM)
It is a feature, not a bug. You can jolly well have those Vision Mags installed on your contacts and then you won't have the Perception penalties when you look for the sniper.

Sure you won't. Try driving to work looking through the cores of paper towel rolls. Magnification reduces the field of view.

Not if your magnified view is in a window off to one side, which is a trivial thing to do in 2070, I imagine.
hobgoblin
Also, do not forget that what we see is a composit of continual focus shifts. So how magnification attached to the very eyes will work is a open question imo.
Wiseman
QUOTE
First I better explain the set up of the situation at hand


That did help a little.

QUOTE
Now how ganger dealers go about distributing their goods is a matter of opinion. I chose this because it made sense to me, and I'd rather they didn't run around killing ganger childern.


Of course, I was just making suggestions in reference to what you saw as overpowered and didn't want to say "no you can't do that"

QUOTE
Unfortunately the average ganger is dumb as a block of plasticrete, so he killed all of them without any difficulty. I hate telling my players "no you can't do that because it's too powerful" but they're starting to rely on his sniping skills way too much.


QUOTE
They were doing what they were paid to do, that is what Shadowrunning is about, so I don't think we should really drag morals into this. As far as shamans, smoke grenades, and other such nifty devices of protection, I don't think random dealers are going to be packing things like that. I run my games as a sytle of what makes sense, not what would pose a challenge. The first time they try to storm a corp complex they'll be very sad.


Hey I was just trying to give some suggestions. If you set up paper doll guys and give the players every advantage and they succeed and your a little shock...well then I don't know what the hell you want other than some kind of arguement.

We're just trying to help.

QUOTE
I understand the rules about being able to dodge even if you don't know where the fire is coming from, and running for cover, etc. However the sniper didn't have any reason to use his scope since he was in short range (which is up to 150 meters, that is a lot of distance), and was smartlinked. Longarms skill of 4, agility of 6 (thanks to some ware), smartlink, specilization in sniper rifles, he was rolling a ton of dice. Now more to the point, I'm looking for some valid reasons within the rules of the game to nerf him a bit without having to out and out say "you can't do this because I said so". As it stands, with his current weapon, the Walter, there is nothign stopping him from continuing his sniper work, or even running around in a close quarters gun fight with his rifle basically destroying everything in his path.


You've been given tons and you refuse to accept anything other than gangers are stupid, poor, unperceptive, don't plan ahead, and sniper is god.

QUOTE
I appreciate all the input you guys are giving, but a lot of it is opinion, and "in the real world" type explinations. That kind of stuff doesn't fly at my table, because using phrases like "realistically" and "in the real world" opens the door to too many debates on other issues I'd like to avoid.


Cool, glad to help. There is some realism in fantasy games, it helps suspend disbelief. Like guns use ammo and ranges and stuff. If realism doesn't fly at the table why are you arguing gangers have to be poor and can't use children either, oh and morals don't count.

I don't know what you want. It almost sounds to me like your the guy playing the sniper and you think you got things beat and wanna know if there are counters but your GM doesn't come up with many.

If you are the GM and you won't use realism, and you won't use imagination, and you won't tell him "no, you just can't do that". I'd say you have no options but to let him kill everything. Long as your all having fun. Think everyone gave you some good feedback and ideas and you just said "no, you can't do that".

Edit oh wait. just to reclarify....

QUOTE
I run my games as a sytle of what makes sense, not what would pose a challenge.


QUOTE
I appreciate all the input you guys are giving, but a lot of it is opinion, and "in the real world" type explinations. That kind of stuff doesn't fly at my table



So it has to make sense but not necessarily be a challenge, but you don't want that real world stuff that makes sense and is a challenge.

Gotcha. Good luck bud!
Desade
QUOTE (Wiseman)
QUOTE
First I better explain the set up of the situation at hand


That did help a little.

QUOTE
Now how ganger dealers go about distributing their goods is a matter of opinion. I chose this because it made sense to me, and I'd rather they didn't run around killing ganger childern.


Of course, I was just making suggestions in reference to what you saw as overpowered and didn't want to say "no you can't do that"

QUOTE
Unfortunately the average ganger is dumb as a block of plasticrete, so he killed all of them without any difficulty. I hate telling my players "no you can't do that because it's too powerful" but they're starting to rely on his sniping skills way too much.


QUOTE
They were doing what they were paid to do, that is what Shadowrunning is about, so I don't think we should really drag morals into this. As far as shamans, smoke grenades, and other such nifty devices of protection, I don't think random dealers are going to be packing things like that. I run my games as a sytle of what makes sense, not what would pose a challenge. The first time they try to storm a corp complex they'll be very sad.


Hey I was just trying to give some suggestions. If you set up paper doll guys and give the players every advantage and they succeed and your a little shock...well then I don't know what the hell you want other than some kind of arguement.

We're just trying to help.

QUOTE
I understand the rules about being able to dodge even if you don't know where the fire is coming from, and running for cover, etc. However the sniper didn't have any reason to use his scope since he was in short range (which is up to 150 meters, that is a lot of distance), and was smartlinked. Longarms skill of 4, agility of 6 (thanks to some ware), smartlink, specilization in sniper rifles, he was rolling a ton of dice. Now more to the point, I'm looking for some valid reasons within the rules of the game to nerf him a bit without having to out and out say "you can't do this because I said so". As it stands, with his current weapon, the Walter, there is nothign stopping him from continuing his sniper work, or even running around in a close quarters gun fight with his rifle basically destroying everything in his path.


You've been given tons and you refuse to accept anything other than gangers are stupid, poor, unperceptive, don't plan ahead, and sniper is god.

QUOTE
I appreciate all the input you guys are giving, but a lot of it is opinion, and "in the real world" type explinations. That kind of stuff doesn't fly at my table, because using phrases like "realistically" and "in the real world" opens the door to too many debates on other issues I'd like to avoid.


Cool, glad to help. There is some realism in fantasy games, it helps suspend disbelief. Like guns use ammo and ranges and stuff. If realism doesn't fly at the table why are you arguing gangers have to be poor and can't use children either, oh and morals don't count.

I don't know what you want. It almost sounds to me like your the guy playing the sniper and you think you got things beat and wanna know if there are counters but your GM doesn't come up with many.

If you are the GM and you won't use realism, and you won't use imagination, and you won't tell him "no, you just can't do that". I'd say you have no options but to let him kill everything. Long as your all having fun. Think everyone gave you some good feedback and ideas and you just said "no, you can't do that".

Honestly the whole sniper thing was more of me venting about the abscence of rules coverage for it than an actual question, and I shouldn't have put it up. At least it's given people something to debate, which is always a fun and interesting read. Believe it or not I did take in a lot of what was said, and weighed some choices. I think I'm going to enforce situational modifiers when he uses his rifle out of context. I do appreciate the help you all tried to give me, dumpshock has a great community.
Wiseman
QUOTE
Honestly the whole sniper thing was more of me venting about the abscence of rules coverage for it than an actual question, and I shouldn't have put it up. At least it's given people something to debate, which is always a fun and interesting read. Believe it or not I did take in a lot of what was said, and weighed some choices. I think I'm going to enforce situational modifiers when he uses his rifle out of context. I do appreciate the help you all tried to give me, dumpshock has a great community


No problem. Just a little confusing on my side as all that came to mind is

.."well there is no pleasing you is there mr. powers"

Edit: Ultimately you run the game how you want. These were just suggestions of different approaches.

Honestly though in the tough world of shadowrun, to give players access to most or all of the equipment thats readily available and then pretend gangers don't have connections was the mistake in my humble opinion.

I know some heavily equipped SWAT guys who still plan and plan to take out some modern day ganger thugs and they don't have half the stuff and trust me its still hard.

I'm sure you'll get it balanced though. The old saying is you only have to teach them the lesson once (preferably early on)
djinni
QUOTE (Wiseman)
I'm sure you'll get it balanced though. The old saying is you only have to teach them the lesson once (preferably early on)

once they learn one way it is hard to teach them a different way...
G.NOME
5. They should've ran. I mean, c'mon. They might not be able to spot the sniper but they sure as hell could spot the exploding heads of their fellow gang members that surrounded them....
Glyph
Personally, I would stay away from singling the sniper out for situational modifiers. Use, them, sure, but don't make up special penalties for him for using it "outside of its role". It's better to use the rules that are already there, than to give the player the impression that you are picking on him.

The Walther MA-2100 is a bulky military weapon, and one that cannot be disassembled to fit into a briefcase. That kind of limits its role. You can't walk down the street with it in an area with a relatively decent security rating. You can't take it to a meet or into a bar. If you are seen using it, Lone Star will tend to call for heavy backup.

Essentially, it is relegated to the same kind of usage as assault rifles, grenade launchers, and machine guns - it is a heavy weapon to use for serious fights. And compared to things like Ares Alphas, Ingram White Knight LMGs, or Armtech MGL-12 grenade launchers, it is not as good.
Demon_Bob
Not trying to hyjack the thread. Although my question would change the subject of the discussion for a few posts it appears as though the initial subject has been thoroughly discussed.

Got a new player who decided not to spend any points on contacts.
Should I suggest to him that without contacts it will be difficult for him to find any jobs or participate in gathering intel? Or just should I go with the old friend of a current runner thing? I was considering giving the runners a free 1/4 contact each, but if someone is going to attempt this type of thing I'm not so sure.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012