I am wondering what skills and the target number and time interval it would take to craft a Katana.
Intricate Item 12
time week
Skills, from the example I am guessing Armorer skill and Logic attribute.
Any input?
WMS
Full Version: Craft Katana
Hmm,
'Traditional'
Threshold (I presume you meant) 12 sounds about right, though I would go with 1 month interval.
I relying on modern composite 'steel' bar to start with and merely shaping it, then say same threshold but interval 1 day to 1 week.
The vast majority of the time making a kantna was the 'folding' process to work carbon into the steel to make up for poor quality steel.
If you already have a superior 'bar' then a few days is very reasonable for a skilled armorer to shape a blade and polish it.
If you have 'junk' iron and are purifying it / carbonizing it, and then shaping it into a blade internval of a month.
(so depends if they can buy a bar of alloy, then I would go with days interval, if they are salvaging 'iron' from the local junk yard, then months interval. (or more accurately threshold 12 interval month, test to 'purify' and form the base bar to make the blade. Then a threshold 12, interval 1 day, to shape the blade and attach handle.))
'Traditional'
Threshold (I presume you meant) 12 sounds about right, though I would go with 1 month interval.
I relying on modern composite 'steel' bar to start with and merely shaping it, then say same threshold but interval 1 day to 1 week.
The vast majority of the time making a kantna was the 'folding' process to work carbon into the steel to make up for poor quality steel.
If you already have a superior 'bar' then a few days is very reasonable for a skilled armorer to shape a blade and polish it.
If you have 'junk' iron and are purifying it / carbonizing it, and then shaping it into a blade internval of a month.
(so depends if they can buy a bar of alloy, then I would go with days interval, if they are salvaging 'iron' from the local junk yard, then months interval. (or more accurately threshold 12 interval month, test to 'purify' and form the base bar to make the blade. Then a threshold 12, interval 1 day, to shape the blade and attach handle.))
well since at a threshold of 12 it will take it 60 dice worth at buying successes to get it done in one week. Using statical dice rolls(which I never get 
) it will take 36 dice.
So unless one has a very skilled katana crafter, it will take at least 2 weeks if not longer.
No I am meaning to use in the example superior steel and then the folding, which does do more than upgrade inferior steel.
Laughingowl, are the skills and attributes the most correct ones?
WMS
) it will take 36 dice.So unless one has a very skilled katana crafter, it will take at least 2 weeks if not longer.
No I am meaning to use in the example superior steel and then the folding, which does do more than upgrade inferior steel.
Laughingowl, are the skills and attributes the most correct ones?
WMS
I think the skills are good, you could also use artisan-sword crafting(katanas) too.
Yeah but would a sword made using the Artisan skill be combat ready or just a cemerimonal blade?
The Master Swordsmith Masamune was definately an artisan and not a mere armorer.
I would make it a two step process, the first step would be preparing the steel (The folding, and the basic form) using Armorer, the second would be the crafting of the blade (The parts that are more art than science, like balance etc.) using Artisan.
I would make it a two step process, the first step would be preparing the steel (The folding, and the basic form) using Armorer, the second would be the crafting of the blade (The parts that are more art than science, like balance etc.) using Artisan.
I'd actually make it a three-step process with three different specializations, shaping, hardening, and polishing.
The hardening test would only take a few minutes but a failure would ruin the shaped blade.
The hardening test would only take a few minutes but a failure would ruin the shaped blade.
By the RAW, it's only twofold:
The Armorer Test determines if it's a usable weapon.
The Artisan Test determines how pretty it is.
The latter part really is optional - ugly weapons still kill.
The Armorer Test determines if it's a usable weapon.
The Artisan Test determines how pretty it is.
The latter part really is optional - ugly weapons still kill.
Hmm interesting inputs....
First Step Shaping the Steel, Threshold 12, week, Armorer
Second Step Hardening, Threshold 12, hour, Armorer
Third Step, Polishing, Threshold, 12, week, Artisan
I prefer the 3 steps rather than the two steps.
One more question, would a Mentor Spirit like Artificer add any extra dice, if the katana is going to be a virgin Telesma?
Thanks to all for your inputs.
WMS
First Step Shaping the Steel, Threshold 12, week, Armorer
Second Step Hardening, Threshold 12, hour, Armorer
Third Step, Polishing, Threshold, 12, week, Artisan
I prefer the 3 steps rather than the two steps.
One more question, would a Mentor Spirit like Artificer add any extra dice, if the katana is going to be a virgin Telesma?
Thanks to all for your inputs.
WMS
Wouldn't it be easier to take the high quality steel and throw it in a lathe and have your computer cut a sword out of it? I guess you would probably need a facility to have all the fancy lathes but wouldn't that just make it one armorer test?
Easier yes, but the lathe would not fold the steel. Basically the lathe could carve out the shape of the blade, even carve out an edge, but its appearance.......
WMS
WMS
..would be pretty decent. I have handled blades that were created that way and they looked pretty much perfect (perhaps a bit 'too'). Even forged blades are trimmed down until they look nice.
At the end of the day, the only thing that counts are the material properties of the steel(s) used (and the hardening zones) - and while traditional katana are a piece of art, the reason for the complicated process was that the steel was pretty bad.
Today, buying a good carbon steel katana from Hanwei or the like will give you a blade that is pretty much indestructible in a fight and will cut deep. (see MythBusters)
At the end of the day, the only thing that counts are the material properties of the steel(s) used (and the hardening zones) - and while traditional katana are a piece of art, the reason for the complicated process was that the steel was pretty bad.
Today, buying a good carbon steel katana from Hanwei or the like will give you a blade that is pretty much indestructible in a fight and will cut deep. (see MythBusters)
Interesting Hanwei uses three different types of steel. But look at this blade from his selection
"Each piece in the Kami group has a hand-forged and folded ASSAB-K120C powder steel blade, differentially tempered to produce an HRC60 edge, HRC40 back and a distinctive hamon.."
Due the combining of the three steels, even these blades are folded.
Which episode of Mythbusters are you referring to? I have seen the one where they test the hands clapping together to stop a downward sword strike.
"Each piece in the Kami group has a hand-forged and folded ASSAB-K120C powder steel blade, differentially tempered to produce an HRC60 edge, HRC40 back and a distinctive hamon.."
Due the combining of the three steels, even these blades are folded.
Which episode of Mythbusters are you referring to? I have seen the one where they test the hands clapping together to stop a downward sword strike.
Hanwei produces mono-steel swords, too. 
The recent MythBusters Film features the myth of cutting the enemys blade with your own... which is subsequently busted.
The recent MythBusters Film features the myth of cutting the enemys blade with your own... which is subsequently busted.
Well IIRC it was ancient Japanese legend that a Bo Staff master "Could" break katanas using a Bo Staff. Again according to legend, he created the "Jo Staff" to fight a samurai who used two swords.
A sword could break another sword if the sword that was broken had a flaw or defect.
WMS
A sword could break another sword if the sword that was broken had a flaw or defect.
WMS
Indeed, breaking swords is stuff for legends and severe material defects.
Actually, breaking swords is easy. It is cutting swords that is impossible. I might just get a copy of that Mythbusters and youtube a couple of the slow-mo videos but a katana swung by someone who knows how to use it will annihilate a rapier while a claymore will break a katana. When a big sword hit a smaller sword at full speed the small sword will bend and snap. And a real katana will break a stainless steel crap-piece.
ASSAB K-120C is one type of steel, I believe.
An hour is a bit long for the hardening process and 12 is a bit high. It basically involves coating the blade with heat-resistant clay, except for the edge, heating it up until the edge has the right color, and then quenching it in water.
It isn't something that should be an extended test, either. You only get one-shot at hardening a blade like this. If you mess up the blade is ruined and you have no coice but to start over.
And the Mythbisters episode is the special feature-length movie episode.
ASSAB K-120C is one type of steel, I believe.
An hour is a bit long for the hardening process and 12 is a bit high. It basically involves coating the blade with heat-resistant clay, except for the edge, heating it up until the edge has the right color, and then quenching it in water.
It isn't something that should be an extended test, either. You only get one-shot at hardening a blade like this. If you mess up the blade is ruined and you have no coice but to start over.
And the Mythbisters episode is the special feature-length movie episode.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| but a katana swung by someone who knows how to use it will annihilate a rapier while a claymore will break a katana. |
The problem is that those targets were fixed - if someone is holding them, they won't bend the same way, as the force is put on the wielder, too.
Replicas, on the other hand, can usually be bend in shape with bare hands...
OK modified
First Step Shaping the Steel, Threshold 12, week, Armorer
Second Step Hardening, 3, half hour, Armorer, If you do not get 3 successes hardening fails, katana ruined begin all over.
Third Step, Polishing, Threshold, 12, week, Artisan
No answer to my question on if Mentor spirit's dice would add to any of the tests.
Please no Thread Jacking, take the katana versus everything else to another/your own thread.
First Step Shaping the Steel, Threshold 12, week, Armorer
Second Step Hardening, 3, half hour, Armorer, If you do not get 3 successes hardening fails, katana ruined begin all over.
Third Step, Polishing, Threshold, 12, week, Artisan
No answer to my question on if Mentor spirit's dice would add to any of the tests.
Please no Thread Jacking, take the katana versus everything else to another/your own thread.
My answer would be no, you don't get the extra dice because forging the blade isn't an Enchanting Test. It's an Armorer Test with an Artisan Test tacked on if the crafter wants the sword to be pretty as well as deadly.
Actually, polishing a katana is necessary to make it deadly because the polishing process is also the sharpening process. It is also traditionally handled by an expert who does nothing but polishing, rather than the swordsmith himself.
Then it should also be an Armorer Test.
Ok take the middle ground then
First Step Shaping the Steel, Threshold 12, week, Armorer+Artisan
Second Step Hardening, 3, half hour, Armorer+Artisan, If you do not get 3 successes hardening fails, katana ruined begin all over.
Third Step, Polishing, Threshold, 12, week, Artisan+Artisan
First Step Shaping the Steel, Threshold 12, week, Armorer+Artisan
Second Step Hardening, 3, half hour, Armorer+Artisan, If you do not get 3 successes hardening fails, katana ruined begin all over.
Third Step, Polishing, Threshold, 12, week, Artisan+Artisan
There is also the issue of equipment. The folding required for a traditional katana cannot reasonably be accomplished by a single guy with a hammer in one hand and the steel in another. Traditionally, a swordsmith would have his underpaid apprentices wield sledgehammers. Today, and automatic hammer is an acceptable substitute, though it might interfere with enchantment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9ofKvsMDgc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_JcP0AASFw...related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9ofKvsMDgc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_JcP0AASFw...related&search=
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| There is also the issue of equipment. The folding required for a traditional katana cannot reasonably be accomplished by a single guy with a hammer in one hand and the steel in another. Traditionally, a swordsmith would have his underpaid apprentices wield sledgehammers. Today, and automatic hammer is an acceptable substitute, though it might interfere with enchantment. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9ofKvsMDgc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_JcP0AASFw...related&search= |
Actually the use of a Trip Hammer is an accepted technique of folding steel. All but the most expensive folded swords use similar things like Trip Hammers in there making.
As for it interfere with enchantment? Why so?
It will have to be done in a lodge equal to or greater than the force of the foci.
WMS
Because the more complex the equipment used to process it is the more "processed" it becomes.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Because the more complex the equipment used to process it is the more "processed" it becomes. |
So you mean I have to go and use a rock against rock due I do not want it to be more processed?
Know if I was using some high tech forging techniques maybe, but a trip hammer dates back 2000+ years, in fact the type is still being used in parts of China. Just the power source is no longer water in modern trip hammers, unlike the ancient ones what used water and wind.
And who said this was a traditionally forged weapon? Having some other persons have their chance to bungle the forging....no.
The traditional ones only used apprentices due the times and the lack of water powered trip hammers.
The Chinese had them, but the Japanese seem to have missed that piece of extremely high technology.
the demarcation point between "processed" and "not processed" generally seems to be the use of electrical power.
| QUOTE (mfb @ Jun 10 2007, 09:11 PM) |
| the demarcation point between "processed" and "not processed" generally seems to be the use of electrical power. |
Interesting where does the RAW state that?
So Generally speaking if I use a 2,000 year old Chinese water powered Trip Hammer it is "not processed", but if I take the same 2,000 year old Chinese Trip Hammer and replaced the water power with an electric motor it becomes "processed"?
Generalizations are generally wrong.
Now if I used the NC lathe that another posted suggested, maybe, depends upon the end product. If said NC Lathe is cranking out carbon steel blades no, but if it was cranking out titanium-boron-etc ceramic alloyed steels, yes.
Opps appears that SM is not in alignment with the general consensus:
"Alchemy Microlab", made of lightweight ceramics, smart plastics and foamed metals. I will bet the Microlab does not use water or wind power. But I would say such a microlab is Highly Processed.
Skins, if you're going to go to that degree to argue your points against someone... then by RAW, your test is a single extended Armorer + Logic test, with modifiers as appropriate from the table on SR4, pg 125.
Side note: If you're planning on doing it to use it as a telesma, then don't forget Street Magic specifically mentions on page 83, "Handmade telesma are shaped or put together by a magician in some way ... Firearms and other highly processed goods are generally difficult to manufacture in this fashion and are often less effective than their mass-manufactured counterparts."
"Virgin telesma must be crafted from the raw, natural materials and shaped by the magician. ... Weapons made in this way are usually primitive and fragile."
Emphasis mine. Basically, if you're planning to make a sword by hand, then by RAW its going to be worse than what you can buy off shelf.
Side note: If you're planning on doing it to use it as a telesma, then don't forget Street Magic specifically mentions on page 83, "Handmade telesma are shaped or put together by a magician in some way ... Firearms and other highly processed goods are generally difficult to manufacture in this fashion and are often less effective than their mass-manufactured counterparts."
"Virgin telesma must be crafted from the raw, natural materials and shaped by the magician. ... Weapons made in this way are usually primitive and fragile."
Emphasis mine. Basically, if you're planning to make a sword by hand, then by RAW its going to be worse than what you can buy off shelf.
Yes but from the description it talks about flint knives etc.
As for handmade telesma, lets see he smelts the iron ore, pouring it into ingots, forges the ingots into a bar/billet, then hammers into the form his wishes, then heats the product to the correct temps, quiches it, then sharpens it. Then applies the final finishes, handle, etc.
Operative words being Usuallyand often , I am not just slapping together a piece of flint and wrapping it in deer hide, with a few beads for decoration.
Where in the above description of the processes would lead you to believe it would be lesser than manufactured ones? Yes it would not have the logo of a major maker, but it would not be any lesser at cutting.
Now if if I placed Dikote on the katana I would consider it Highly processed.
As for handmade telesma, lets see he smelts the iron ore, pouring it into ingots, forges the ingots into a bar/billet, then hammers into the form his wishes, then heats the product to the correct temps, quiches it, then sharpens it. Then applies the final finishes, handle, etc.
Operative words being Usuallyand often , I am not just slapping together a piece of flint and wrapping it in deer hide, with a few beads for decoration.
Where in the above description of the processes would lead you to believe it would be lesser than manufactured ones? Yes it would not have the logo of a major maker, but it would not be any lesser at cutting.
Now if if I placed Dikote on the katana I would consider it Highly processed.
| QUOTE (WearzManySkins) |
| Yes but from the description it talks about flint knives etc. As for handmade telesma, lets see he smelts the iron ore, pouring it into ingots, forges the ingots into a bar/billet, then hammers into the form his wishes, then heats the product to the correct temps, quiches it, then sharpens it. Then applies the final finishes, handle, etc. Operative words being Usuallyand often , I am not just slapping together a piece of flint and wrapping it in deer hide, with a few beads for decoration. Where in the above description of the processes would lead you to believe it would be lesser than manufactured ones? Yes it would not have the logo of a major maker, but it would not be any lesser at cutting. Now if if I placed Dikote on the katana I would consider it Highly processed. |
I'd wager the section where you smelt the iron ore, pour it into ingots and forge them into bars. The iron your get from smelting and the ore would be in no way comparable in quality to steel made using modern techniques. At best your hand made katana is going to be equivalent to a regular sword. The stats for the katana would be for ones mass produced using high quality steel and modern manufacturing techniques. There is no way someone by hand is going to be able to match the quality that a machine can do.
Hmm lets see, from knowledge based skills like advanced metallurgy, katana folding techniques, alloying techniques etc. It is a doable thing.
The old katanas of old, did not have access to modern steel making techniques, but IIRC they came out very nice.
So your are saying an ancient crafted katana would only be equal to a sword, due to the primitive steel manufacturing techniques?
IIRC there several katana sword smiths in Japan today, that make katana greatly better than "most" manufactured ones. So as an example a hand crafted weapon is equal if not better than most manufactured ones.
They are manufactured due to it takes so long for a hand crafted one to be made. And the hand crafted ones are so expensive too.
The old katanas of old, did not have access to modern steel making techniques, but IIRC they came out very nice.
So your are saying an ancient crafted katana would only be equal to a sword, due to the primitive steel manufacturing techniques?
IIRC there several katana sword smiths in Japan today, that make katana greatly better than "most" manufactured ones. So as an example a hand crafted weapon is equal if not better than most manufactured ones.
They are manufactured due to it takes so long for a hand crafted one to be made. And the hand crafted ones are so expensive too.
Skins, to offer a different interpretation. "Virgin telesma must be crafted from the raw, natural materials and shaped by the magician." Natural materials. Steel is not a natural material. Thus, a steel sword, is not a virgin telesma. Period.
"Handmade telesma are shaped or put together by a magician in some way"
You could get your sword into this category, but because of the section that says "other highly processed goods are generally difficult to manufacture in this fashion and are often less effective than their mass-manufactured counterparts."
I'd say, if you wanted to make a handmade telesma sword, since it says making things that'd normally be highly processed is difficult, then the threshold needs to be increased to reflect the difficulty of creating the sword in a fashion that keeps it under the handmade category.
Also, as a note, the armorer says to create something new, you need the knowledge or blueprints to do so. So, you'd need the knowledge skill (sword craft) or some such, to be able to even attempt creating your sword. Unless you bought blueprints off the matrix, which would likely be for a machine, not for making it by hand.
"Handmade telesma are shaped or put together by a magician in some way"
You could get your sword into this category, but because of the section that says "other highly processed goods are generally difficult to manufacture in this fashion and are often less effective than their mass-manufactured counterparts."
I'd say, if you wanted to make a handmade telesma sword, since it says making things that'd normally be highly processed is difficult, then the threshold needs to be increased to reflect the difficulty of creating the sword in a fashion that keeps it under the handmade category.
Also, as a note, the armorer says to create something new, you need the knowledge or blueprints to do so. So, you'd need the knowledge skill (sword craft) or some such, to be able to even attempt creating your sword. Unless you bought blueprints off the matrix, which would likely be for a machine, not for making it by hand.
| QUOTE (WearzManySkins) |
| Hmm lets see, from knowledge based skills like advanced metallurgy, katana folding techniques, alloying techniques etc. It is a doable thing. The old katanas of old, did not have access to modern steel making techniques, but IIRC they came out very nice. So your are saying an ancient crafted katana would only be equal to a sword, due to the primitive steel manufacturing techniques? IIRC there several katana sword smiths in Japan today, that make katana greatly better than "most" manufactured ones. So as an example a hand crafted weapon is equal if not better than most manufactured ones. They are manufactured due to it takes so long for a hand crafted one to be made. And the hand crafted ones are so expensive too. |
If you were using advance steel making techniques then the iron ore would already processed and you could skip to the pounding the bars into a sword stage.
I would also wager that the katana smiths in Japan today don't smelt their own iron but instead use already processed metal.
And as you said they are better to "most" manufactured ones. So within 70 years our machines will have gotten much better and be far more efficient, were as the human skill can't increase at the same rate so all the manufactured ones would be better.
I'd also say that ones mass produced today aren't designed to be used as weapons for killing but more as weapons for show and hobbies, so a good quality one is fine. In SR the katanas are mass produced to be used as killing instruments, so the only ones would be the best quality ones. If they weren't the best quality they would just fall into the category of sword.
| QUOTE (WearzManySkins) |
| So your are saying an ancient crafted katana would only be equal to a sword, due to the primitive steel manufacturing techniques? |
In Real Life yes I would. (I've never been a Katana Fan-boy.)
In Shadowrun however Katanas are supposed to have different stats so it'd be a harder call but I think I'd have to say that yeah they lose their -1 AP and become a 'normal sword' provided of course that the Katana in question wasn't forged using 4th World secrets, ect.
Tarantula,
In SM page 185 one can buy "raw" iron, from a Talismonger/etc.
From raw iron etc it can be made into steel of various sorts.
Now whether or not making steel out of iron, is a natural...It is mostly iron with basically amounts of carbon added. And yes carbon can be found as "raw" coal and diamonds sources of carbon. Combining two raw things into another thing....to me does not affect its original "raw" status. But part of the crafting process.
Kinda like taking raw ochre and combining it with a raw mineral oil/fat, one can make a paint. Is the paint not crafted from two raw things. Paint is not naturally material.
Now whether or not a virgin handmade telesma one needs to gather all of the materials oneself is not stated as so.
As for the difficulty I agree, it is at a 12 now.
As for the knowledge skills, knowsofts, I feel that there would be basic knowsofts available on the Matrix.
What defines highly processed? again use my example above on the Chinese trip hammer.
In SM page 185 one can buy "raw" iron, from a Talismonger/etc.
From raw iron etc it can be made into steel of various sorts.
Now whether or not making steel out of iron, is a natural...It is mostly iron with basically amounts of carbon added. And yes carbon can be found as "raw" coal and diamonds sources of carbon. Combining two raw things into another thing....to me does not affect its original "raw" status. But part of the crafting process.
Kinda like taking raw ochre and combining it with a raw mineral oil/fat, one can make a paint. Is the paint not crafted from two raw things. Paint is not naturally material.
Now whether or not a virgin handmade telesma one needs to gather all of the materials oneself is not stated as so.
As for the difficulty I agree, it is at a 12 now.
As for the knowledge skills, knowsofts, I feel that there would be basic knowsofts available on the Matrix.
What defines highly processed? again use my example above on the Chinese trip hammer.
Well if I understand what you are talking about by a Trip Hammer then yeah I'd consider it "processed" no matter how old the technology was or whether you powered it with water or a generator.
Yes, iron is raw. Coal is raw. Steel is not raw. Therefore, either your sword is iron and not steel, and thus a virgin telesma. Or it is steel, which is at least mildly processed (by hand) iron, and thus a handmade telesma.
I'd say the difficulty for making a handmade sword as good as the ones you can buy would be more in the + range on the table. My eyeballing would put it around 20 or so. Like you said, the reason they aren't done often is because it is a LOT of work, and time invested into doing it. If you're willing to spend the time, I'd let the handmade sword be as good as a storebought one, but it will take the time. I'd let you do it at the 12 or so for a sword grade sword, instead of katana. And at a 6 or so for a worsened one.
As far as highly processed. Virgin telesma says it must be made from raw materials. Not made up consisting of materials that occur naturally, but made up and shaped only from raw materials. As in, 100% iron. Thus, it is obviously not processed.
Handmade, just says it is handmade by the magician. Therefore, you could get your sword into the category by using a handcranked chinese trip hammer, just fine. It still wouldn't be virgin, but it would be handmade, and be easier to make and more battle worthy than a virgin telesma sword.
I'd say the difficulty for making a handmade sword as good as the ones you can buy would be more in the + range on the table. My eyeballing would put it around 20 or so. Like you said, the reason they aren't done often is because it is a LOT of work, and time invested into doing it. If you're willing to spend the time, I'd let the handmade sword be as good as a storebought one, but it will take the time. I'd let you do it at the 12 or so for a sword grade sword, instead of katana. And at a 6 or so for a worsened one.
As far as highly processed. Virgin telesma says it must be made from raw materials. Not made up consisting of materials that occur naturally, but made up and shaped only from raw materials. As in, 100% iron. Thus, it is obviously not processed.
Handmade, just says it is handmade by the magician. Therefore, you could get your sword into the category by using a handcranked chinese trip hammer, just fine. It still wouldn't be virgin, but it would be handmade, and be easier to make and more battle worthy than a virgin telesma sword.
Most Professional commercial swordsmiths use modern processed steels. However, the good ol' Living National Treasures still make their own steel the traditional way.
The real advantage of the katana is the clay-resist differential hardening technique which allows a hard brittle edge along with a softer more flexible body.
The real advantage of the katana is the clay-resist differential hardening technique which allows a hard brittle edge along with a softer more flexible body.
Ravor,
Ok what then defines "Highly Processed" then? Manufacturing techniques, material composition?
Again reference the description of the alchemy microlab, encase you feel manufacturing techniques is one way.
Tarantula,
Again my paint example? In crafting descriptions it never states that the items can not be combined/blended/etc. Like a magic paint/dye, like in magical tattoos/etc.
Ok what then defines "Highly Processed" then? Manufacturing techniques, material composition?
Again reference the description of the alchemy microlab, encase you feel manufacturing techniques is one way.
Tarantula,
Again my paint example? In crafting descriptions it never states that the items can not be combined/blended/etc. Like a magic paint/dye, like in magical tattoos/etc.
In this case time is not a major factor.
Virgin doesn't say highly processed anywhere inside of it. It says it must be created from the raw, natural materials, and shaped by the magician. Examples are a knife shaped out of flint. Or a thong from hand-woven horsehair. To me, that says a sword from iron is ok. You're merely shaping it. However taking that iron, adding coal, and then shaping it is not only shaping it. Which is the description for virgin.
If you want a steel sword, its at best going to be handmade.
If you want a steel sword, its at best going to be handmade.
This is long but it is drawing from a couple years of talking with sword makers and sword users.
So to make that whole long story a bit shorter. Folding = more processed than virgin. If higher mana levels somehow renew natural resources or drop an iron meteor into your proverbial lap you "can" find raw steel but it will NOT be as good as a processed steel. If not then you are stuck with iron+quartz+carbon+silicon+whatever else gets mixed in with natural raw iron and it will not stand up to sword use. You will be stuck with a big knife that won't hold an edge at best.
[ Spoiler ]
So to make that whole long story a bit shorter. Folding = more processed than virgin. If higher mana levels somehow renew natural resources or drop an iron meteor into your proverbial lap you "can" find raw steel but it will NOT be as good as a processed steel. If not then you are stuck with iron+quartz+carbon+silicon+whatever else gets mixed in with natural raw iron and it will not stand up to sword use. You will be stuck with a big knife that won't hold an edge at best.
Other interesting points, Spell Clean Iron. That way you can put the impurities you wish to add.
Also meteoric iron/steel is part of it.
Also meteoric iron/steel is part of it.
Heh, sure, but but one you introduce your own impurities, again, its now down to handmade, and no longer virgin.
BTW, all of this would apply to any sword or knife crafting. They really aren't that different, just in size. I'd call thresholds:
Knife, throwing knife, shuriken simple (2)
Combat knife basic (4)
Regular axe or sword complex (8)
Katana or monofilament sword intricate (12)
Combat axe exotic (16)
This is all assuming you are using stuff like a forge, anvil, grinder and suitable quench medium along with modern materials. To go with raw material only I would call "tools or parts are: unavailable, -4 dice pool or disallowed for threshold over 8".
These thresholds are based on balance. You are already taking a minimum of 8 days of work to do this so the lower thresholds should be fine. Personally I'd reduce the interval for the "simple" to a day but up the threshold to 4 for realism but keeping everything one week makes things a bit more streamlined.
For hand made weapons I'd call the checks:
First Step: Forming the weapon, Threshold (check table), week, Armorer+Logic
Second Step: Finish work, Threshold, 8, day, Artisan+Intuition
Heat treat doesn't take too long and should probably just be covered in the original crafting check. Finish work would be the hilt and scabbard so for it to be anything but an improvised weapon you need the second step. A critical glitch would mean the materials are wasted for that step not the whole project and you need to start that step again.
As the using technical skills section on pg. 125 says designing a sword requires a background knowlege check. Engineering, or maybe even a blades/2+logic or something like that.
Knife, throwing knife, shuriken simple (2)
Combat knife basic (4)
Regular axe or sword complex (8)
Katana or monofilament sword intricate (12)
Combat axe exotic (16)
This is all assuming you are using stuff like a forge, anvil, grinder and suitable quench medium along with modern materials. To go with raw material only I would call "tools or parts are: unavailable, -4 dice pool or disallowed for threshold over 8".
These thresholds are based on balance. You are already taking a minimum of 8 days of work to do this so the lower thresholds should be fine. Personally I'd reduce the interval for the "simple" to a day but up the threshold to 4 for realism but keeping everything one week makes things a bit more streamlined.
For hand made weapons I'd call the checks:
First Step: Forming the weapon, Threshold (check table), week, Armorer+Logic
Second Step: Finish work, Threshold, 8, day, Artisan+Intuition
Heat treat doesn't take too long and should probably just be covered in the original crafting check. Finish work would be the hilt and scabbard so for it to be anything but an improvised weapon you need the second step. A critical glitch would mean the materials are wasted for that step not the whole project and you need to start that step again.
As the using technical skills section on pg. 125 says designing a sword requires a background knowlege check. Engineering, or maybe even a blades/2+logic or something like that.
I am very much against the "cult of the Katana". you know, the "Katanas cut through PLANETS because they are KAATAANAAAAS! <drooldrool>" mindset.
Just because most surviving historical katanas are masterwork heirlooms don't infer that all historical katanas were masterwork. The average blades for average foot-soldier samurai just got made into spoons. Wherever/whenever you are, rich soldiers always have better gear.
There are fewer masterwork European-style blades because the cult of the blade ended several centuries before it did in Japan.
I would bet that a top-end longsword was just as good as a top-end katana at the kind of fighting each was designed for.
Personally, I interpret the katana line on the melee weapon chart to really mean "High quality full-size sword", with a katana just being an example.
Just because most surviving historical katanas are masterwork heirlooms don't infer that all historical katanas were masterwork. The average blades for average foot-soldier samurai just got made into spoons. Wherever/whenever you are, rich soldiers always have better gear.
There are fewer masterwork European-style blades because the cult of the blade ended several centuries before it did in Japan.
I would bet that a top-end longsword was just as good as a top-end katana at the kind of fighting each was designed for.
Personally, I interpret the katana line on the melee weapon chart to really mean "High quality full-size sword", with a katana just being an example.
^What he said.
However given the in game stats and how over engineered katanas are a intricate rating fits.
However given the in game stats and how over engineered katanas are a intricate rating fits.
The only problem I have with the "adding coal (of any grade) to virgin iron makes it handmade telesma" is that artificing per the rules effectively processes the virgin materials into something else. Yet they don't get additional modifiers or status change. Specifically, I'm referring to the creation of Orichalcum. Virgin -> Radical -> Orichalcum. To make Orichalcum, you *MUST* change your virgin materials. Yet doing so gives you BETTER dice roll modifiers.
If I were running the game and this question came up, I'd allow the player to create virgin steel from virgin coal + virgin iron. They'd have a test / dice roll to see how well they did it. Succeed and get virgin steel. Fail and they get something else (lower quality steel). I suppose a case could even be made that steel *is* radical iron (or at least a form of it).
The reason why? It's supposed to be fun and entertaining. Does it really cause a problem in the long run if a GM makes a ruling (for the group) in favor of fun over realism?
If I were running the game and this question came up, I'd allow the player to create virgin steel from virgin coal + virgin iron. They'd have a test / dice roll to see how well they did it. Succeed and get virgin steel. Fail and they get something else (lower quality steel). I suppose a case could even be made that steel *is* radical iron (or at least a form of it).
The reason why? It's supposed to be fun and entertaining. Does it really cause a problem in the long run if a GM makes a ruling (for the group) in favor of fun over realism?
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