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Omar the Falcon
First, wanted to say hello to everyone... this is my first post on these forums, and it took me a few weeks to even get on, so I feel lucky to be here.

Now, a bit of backstory. I started playing shadowrun in 1995 with a used copy of the 1st edition rulebook and the GM screen. My first RPG, it has always been my favorite. I memorized that book from front to back, and while I didnt understand alot of the rules, we had a good time.

From there I went to World of Darkness, then to Live Action games (Amtgard, then SCA). A little over three years ago I got into miniatures with Warhammer 40k, then Warhammer Fantasy, and finally Warmachine. Also played Battletech since the beginning, bought that rulebook the same time I did the old SR1 book.


Its been well over 10 years since I ran a SR game. The last time I played 2nd was the most up to date system. Bought all of the books, tried to run a game, and got discouraged with the quality of players I had available. We were all in high school, so I guess age factors into it. Since then, I have just spent my time collecting books, knowing someday I would probably play again.

About a month ago one of my wargaming budies looks at my shelf and noticed I had a ton of SR books. He talked about how he played it once, had a decent time, but had some issues with the guy running it and the story and such. We talked for a bit, and in the end I decided to give running a game another go. We got two other interested players, and have spent the past month working on characters and doing research into the game.


Our first 'test' game was this past weekend, and man.. do I have some questions. I hope this is the right place for this sort of thing, but if not, please let me know and I will move it.

Anyway, let me get down to them. Just wanted to relate my history with the game so I didnt sound like some noob who just bought a book and didnt bother reading it. I still have a bit of a 'tabletop' mindset with some rules, and am having a hard time getting back into the outlook of running a smooth game over 'playing by the rules'. Not used to the power that comes with being GM. wink.gif


Ok, here goes. I will try to break them up into the situation that is appropriate:

Combat:

- During the combat round, you roll Int, put them all on a list, and go from highest to lowest. That I get. Now, how does the process work? Does everyone declare actions THEN act, or do you wait until your number is up, declare actions, then act? After actions are declared, can someone opt to jump in if they delayed their action?
Situation: Player 1 was facing off with Ganger 1. Ganger 1 went first, decided to hold the action to see if Player 1 would surrender. Player 1 goes next, decided to quickdraw his gun and fire. Can Ganger 1 declare to jump in before Player 1 draws, knowing that was he intends to do (Ganger 1 was only planning to shoot if Player 1 didnt surrender.. would Ganger 1 know that Player 1 wasnt surrendering?)?

- Movement - Can you break up your actions and movement? As in, can a character move out from behind cover, fire his gun, and then move back behind cover with the rest of his movement? Is there a specific time when the characters are allowed to move?

- Melee - Player 2 and Ganger 2 are facing off. Ganger 2 goes first and decides to run at Player 2 and hit him with a Katana. So, they are next to each other and in melee. Player 2 goes next, and wants to move back, quickdraw a gun, and blow Ganger 2 away. Can he do this? Are people 'locked' in melee combat, or can they break away? Is there an attack of opportunity as the person moves away?


There were a few more, but my brain is pretty fried from work. I will get back on here as they come up.

Thanks!
Omar the Falcon
Remembered another one:

- Do the players start with any Karma pool? I noticed that for every 10 a human will get 1 karma pool, and for every 20 a metahuman will get 1 karma pool. I was thinking about giving everyone 1 karma pool to start with, for that 'I gotta pull this off' re-roll.

- How much Karma comes out of a typical adventure? An evening worth of gaming, involving a shootout of some sort, a bit of RP, some legwork, etc? I remember older editions being fairly unrealistic with the karma awards, but I dont want them to get too much too soon.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Omar the Falcon @ Jun 11 2007, 05:55 PM)
- During the combat round, you roll Int, put them all on a list, and go from highest to lowest.  That I get.  Now, how does the process work?  Does everyone declare actions THEN act, or do you wait until your number is up, declare actions, then act?  After actions are declared, can someone opt to jump in if they delayed their action?

Unfortunately I don't have access to my books at the moment. As I remember, however:

By canon, IIRC, actions are declared from lowest to highest init for each pass, then resolved. I've never actually seen anyone do it that way.

QUOTE
- Movement - Can you break up your actions and movement?  As in, can a character move out from behind cover, fire his gun, and then move back behind cover with the rest of his movement?  Is there a specific time when the characters are allowed to move?

Movement happens separately from actions and continuously throughout the turn. Provided a character can move fast enough, it is perfectly possible to move out from cover, fire, and return--but in general it's difficult to do so before someone else gets at least one action.

QUOTE
- Melee - Player 2 and Ganger 2 are facing off.  Ganger 2 goes first and decides to run at Player 2 and hit him with a Katana.  So, they are next to each other and in melee.  Player 2 goes next, and wants to move back, quickdraw a gun, and blow Ganger 2 away.  Can he do this?  Are people 'locked' in melee combat, or can they break away?  Is there an attack of opportunity as the person moves away?

People are not locked in melee. Disengaging is as complicated as stepping away. I interpret the movement rules such as to allow someone to declare that they are moving conditionally with someone else, meaning that if they get more movement than that person they can prevent that person from leaving melee with them, but someone faster can leave melee with someone slower trivially.

QUOTE
- Do the players start with any Karma pool? I noticed that for every 10 a human will get 1 karma pool, and for every 20 a metahuman will get 1 karma pool. I was thinking about giving everyone 1 karma pool to start with, for that 'I gotta pull this off' re-roll.

Players start with one point.

QUOTE
- How much Karma comes out of a typical adventure? An evening worth of gaming, involving a shootout of some sort, a bit of RP, some legwork, etc? I remember older editions being fairly unrealistic with the karma awards, but I dont want them to get too much too soon.

Our most recent karma award was 60+ karma each for much of the team.

~J
Omar the Falcon
Are we talking 2nd ed or 3rd ed?

QUOTE
By canon, IIRC, actions are declared from lowest to highest init for each pass, then resolved. I've never actually seen anyone do it that way.


p104 SR3 uses these steps

1 - Dice Pools Refresh
2 - Determine Int
3 - Characters Take actions (highest Int to lowest)
3a - delcare actions
3b - resolve actions
3c - repeat 3a and 3b for every other character in this pass
3d - Calculate the next Int pass, repeat step 3

Edit - Ok, re-read the rules on that same page... these rules are about as clear as mud. The Combat Phase is broken into passes, based on Int. Each pass, everyone involves delcares their actions from lowest to highest.

So, how does passing work?

QUOTE
Movement happens separately from actions and continuously throughout the turn. Provided a character can move fast enough, it is perfectly possible to move out from cover, fire, and return--but in general it's difficult to do so before someone else gets at least one action.


The way we read it, your movement is declared at the start of the turn (walk, run, etc), and then divided between the number of turns you have at that time. So, if you roll 21 you have 3 turns (21, 11, 1) and if your run is 9, you can move 3 on each 'turn'. You could move 1 meter out from cover, shoot, and move 1 back all in your turn... I just wanted to make sure that sounded right.

QUOTE
People are not locked in melee. Disengaging is as complicated as stepping away. I interpret the movement rules such as to allow someone to declare that they are moving conditionally with someone else, meaning that if they get more movement than that person they can prevent that person from leaving melee with them, but someone faster can leave melee with someone slower trivially.


Ok, I am used to a more abstract system of what you can and cant do from my wargames.. its going to take me awhile to get back into the mindset that the rules are a guide, not law. I can see how you could set it up to say that you are using all of your movement to stay with them, provided you have enough.

QUOTE
Our most recent karma award was 60+ karma each for much of the team.


Holy ****! Thats enough to boost almost all of their stats a level, if I am reading the karma rules right. Seems like alot.
Omar the Falcon
Edit: reposted as new - this got overlooked
Abstruse
60+ Karma for one run? Geez, did you assassinate Lofwyr?

Anyway, there's two different types of karma rewards: team karma and personal karma. It's the EXACT same type of karma and spent the same way, it's just the rewards are split up. Team karma is based on the performance of the team and given to each player. 1 karma for surviving and 1 karma for each major goal accomplished. If the run was to, for example, get inside the compound, extract the kidnapped executive alive, then destroy any information they may have gotten out of her but she accidentally took a shotgun blast and died, that'd be 2 team karma out of a possible three. So each player gets 2 karma.

Then you look at how each individual player did. Did they do something super cool with a smart plan? Did they take a bold and life-risking action to save the team or the mission? Did they do a great job of staying in character? Give them a karma point.

On an average run, my rewards tend to be between 4 and 6 altogether and on insane psycho end-of-a-huge-story-arch, take-on-the-adult-dragon-single-handedly missions 8 to 10. The largest I ever gave out was 11 karma, but that was a VERY extreme case in which it was a complex and dangerous run that killed off one PC and caused the one with 11 karma to lose a leg and most of his right arm. He had come up with the plan that saved the mission and stood his ground against the Renraku Red Samurai (who had murdered his brother so he both hated and feared them). The player stayed in character damn near the whole game...he was like a method actor.

Oh, and for the record, all characters send every 10th karma point earned to their karma pool no matter what race. Humans start off with a karma pool of 2 and other races start with a karma pool of 1. The only way to change this is with a flaw whose name I can't remember...something like Cursed Karma which makes it every 20th point. Just so you don't think you're crazy, the 20:1 for metahumans was true in 2nd Ed, but was changed for 3rd and the entire karma pool concept revamped into the Edge attribute for 4th Ed.

The Abstruse One
Omar the Falcon
QUOTE (Abstruse)
Oh, and for the record, all characters send every 10th karma point earned to their karma pool no matter what race. Humans start off with a karma pool of 2 and other races start with a karma pool of 1. The only way to change this is with a flaw whose name I can't remember...something like Cursed Karma which makes it every 20th point. Just so you don't think you're crazy, the 20:1 for metahumans was true in 2nd Ed, but was changed for 3rd and the entire karma pool concept revamped into the Edge attribute for 4th Ed.

p246 SR3 (revised Fanpro version)

Karma Pools - 2nd paragraph

"One-twentieth (one-tenth for humans) of all Karma earned goes into the character's Karma Pool (every twentieth/tenth point earned)."
Omar the Falcon
Edited the above post, but it might get missed.

The Combat turn seems pretty confusing. I read into the reverse order delcare actions part, but how does one delay their action, what effect does it have, and when can they jump in? Do you have to skip your action on that entire 'pass' to get an action you can enter into the next 'pass'? What benefit is there to this?
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Omar the Falcon @ Jun 11 2007, 07:26 PM)
Are we talking 2nd ed or 3rd ed?

3rd.

<Snipped some stuff about action declaration that I'm not going to try to talk about until I have book access again>

QUOTE
The way we read it, your movement is declared at the start of the turn (walk, run, etc), and then divided between the number of turns you have at that time.  So, if you roll 21 you have 3 turns (21, 11, 1) and if your run is 9, you can move 3 on each 'turn'.  You could move 1 meter out from cover, shoot, and move 1 back all in your turn... I just wanted to make sure that sounded right.

Not quite correct. Your movement is divided amongst all passes in the current turn, even ones in which you don't have actions, and occurs throughout those passes.

QUOTE
Ok, I am used to a more abstract system of what you can and cant do from my wargames.. its going to take me awhile to get back into the mindset that the rules are a guide, not law.

On the contrary, the rules are indeed law. However, many actions are less rigidly turn-based than you find in most wargames.

QUOTE
QUOTE
Our most recent karma award was 60+ karma each for much of the team.


Holy ****! Thats enough to boost almost all of their stats a level, if I am reading the karma rules right. Seems like alot.

Ok, I got the respose I wanted, now for the big reveal: that was for thirteen months of real-time (eleven and a half months of actual weekly gaming, we took a hiatus in there). The idea of doing enough of a run to award karma for in a single night is alien to me, but your playstyle may vary.

Edit: Abstruse: Harlequin's Back awards about 100 karma for doing everything correct, and not counting individual awards. It awards even more than that, if you count something I'm not going to reveal.

~J
Omar the Falcon
Fair enough. I am ok with awarding Karma on a per-night basis, if they finish the adventure I have planned. At the end of the run, they get the awards.

As for the movement, that is awesome. They just move that much more in each pass? So... your moving still, but can do nothing?
Kagetenshi
Correct. This is why a quick (Quickness 6) unaugmented (initiative <11) person doesn't beat the pants off of an equally quick (Quickness 6) augmented (initiative >20) person in an 18-meter race--otherwise the unaugmented person would run 18 meters in the first pass while the augmented just runs a mere 6.

Edit: though "can do nothing" is perhaps deceptive. Remember, you get Free Actions during everyone's turns.

~J
Link
QUOTE (Omar the Falcon)
p104 SR3 uses these steps

1 - Dice Pools Refresh
2 - Determine Int
3 - Characters Take actions (highest Int to lowest)
3a - delcare actions
3b - resolve actions
3c - repeat 3a and 3b for every other character in this pass
3d - Calculate the next Int pass, repeat step 3

Edit - Ok, re-read the rules on that same page... these rules are about as clear as mud.  The Combat Phase is broken into passes, based on Int.  Each pass, everyone involves delcares their actions from lowest to highest. 

So, how does passing work?

Have you cleared this part up?

Steps 1 & 2 happen at the start of each turn.
Steps 3, 3a, 3b, 3c & 3d repeat.

(3a & 3b) The character with the highest initiative total declares & resolves his action. (The number this occurs on is his combat phase.)

(3c)The character with the next highest initiative total then declares & resolves his action, then the next character and so on until all have acted once. (This completes the first initiative pass.)

(3d) Now subtract 10 from all initiative totals and repeat the procedure above. Each repeat is another initiative pass. Once anyone's total reaches 0 they no longer may act but may still move in each initiative pass.

Any character when their turn to act comes up may choose to delay their action. This delayed action may be taken prior to any other character's later declared action before they resolve it.

Movement is considered to occur over a whole initiative pass so a character that moves out of cover to fire is generally exposed for that initiative pass.
Abstruse
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Edit: Abstruse: Harlequin's Back awards about 100 karma for doing everything correct, and not counting individual awards. It awards even more than that, if you count something I'm not going to reveal.

~J

Yeah, but Harlequin's Back would take at least 8 regular-length sessions to run all the way through...and it's HARDLY your typical corporate raid, isn't it?

The Abstruse One
Omar the Falcon
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Correct. This is why a quick (Quickness 6) unaugmented (initiative <11) person doesn't beat the pants off of an equally quick (Quickness 6) augmented (initiative >20) person in an 18-meter race--otherwise the unaugmented person would run 18 meters in the first pass while the augmented just runs a mere 6.

Edit: though "can do nothing" is perhaps deceptive. Remember, you get Free Actions during everyone's turns.

~J

So, after the first pass, if there are other passes, people with too low of Int (less than 11 in previous pass) can do nothing but free actions and move? When exactly would they decide what free action and/or move happens? Do they make that decision on the first pass ("My shaman will be running away from the fight" moving his max ammount each pass) or can they change it as further passes happen ("oh, someone tossed a grenade in my path? I am going to jump for cover instead" on the 3rd pass or "I will move out on the first pass, fire my gun full auto as my action, and then move back behind cover for the rest of the turn")?
Omar the Falcon
Had another one, regarding hand to hand combat.

This last game, I had a player who wanted to 'chokeslam' an opponent. His opponent was an average sized human, he was a troll who was in a pretty good position to do just that.

I had another player who wanted to grapple with his opponent to use him as a shield to prevent being shot.


How do I work these things out? For both, I just said use the melee combat rules and depending on the damage they do (and the outcome) I would decide how much of what they wanted to do was accomplished.

The troll based him pretty good, so I said that his opponent was prone from being pulled off a countertop and thrown to the ground. The other player just grappled with his opponent for a few rounds until he knocked him out. Of course, we thought you were 'locked' in combat, so I didnt even think to have his opponent run and shoot.


Now, you can put the condition in your action that you will be 'spending your movement to stay in melee with your opponent' and even if your out of actions, you will move with your opponent automatically (provided they are not faster than you)?

How do you handle more complex physical attacks, such as slams, throws, armlocks, etc? I wanted to avoid the special combat rules in CComp, but I might reconsider unless I missed something.
Rajaat99
QUOTE (Omar the Falcon @ Jun 11 2007, 11:34 PM)
-How much Karma comes out of a typical adventure?  An evening worth of gaming, involving a shootout of some sort, a bit of RP, some legwork, etc?  I remember older editions being fairly unrealistic with the karma awards, but I dont want them to get too much too soon.

My game isn't divided into "adventures". I play downtime. Heck, most of my game is downtime, so my players would have very little karma if I awarded them karma every job. I award them 3 or 4 karma per session. Maybe 5 if they do something crazy good, like save the world, jump into a devil rat nest to save someone (Unless that's their job), basically things that put them at great risk where there's no obvious reward.
I've house ruled so much, I don't remember canon.
This is the way I run a round: (It's been working for 5 years, so why stop.)
1. Everyone rolls initiative.
2. The character who rolled the highest goes first, or holds.
3. Each character goes in steps of ten. Meaning if you roll a 21, you go on 21, 11, and 1. So yes, fast characters are icky.
Of course I don't allow my players to refresh combat pool each round either (in my opinion, it makes things more difficult and requires more planning).
In an example of player A waiting for Thug B to surrender, this is the way I do it. It's probably not canon.
1. Player A draws his weapon and tells them to surrender. Player A declares that if Thug B doesn't surrender, he's going to shoot him.
2. Thug B doesn't surrender and quick draws his pistol.
3. Compare reaction. The person with the highest reaction shoots first.

My advice: Don't let the rules slow down a good game.
Make a quick descision, so the game doesn't slow down. You can look it up during a break, or after game.

QUOTE (Omar the Falcon)
I had a player who wanted to 'chokeslam' an opponent. His opponent was an average sized human, he was a troll who was in a pretty good position to do just that.

I'd handle it like this. Again, just pulling it out, of thin air, so the game doesn't slow down. Unarmed Combat rolls, Troll STR Dam (No augmented damage from bone lacing or brass knuckles), Human rolls Quickness to be on his feet, difficulty Trolls STR.

[QUOTE=Omar the Falcon]I had another player who wanted to grapple with his opponent to use him as a shield to prevent being shot.QUOTE]
Unarmed Combat Check, opposed STR rolls.
Omar the Falcon
QUOTE
My game isn't divided into "adventures". I play downtime. Heck, most of my game is downtime, so my players would have very little karma if I awarded them karma every job. I award them 3 or 4 karma per session. Maybe 5 if they do something crazy good, like save the world, jump into a devil rat nest to save someone (Unless that's their job), basically things that put them at great risk where there's no obvious reward.


To be honest, I really dont know what to do with downtime. The action I can understand, but the rest? I guess I need to get my players to be a bit more motivated to act on their own. Seems like I have to lead them along a bit too much.

QUOTE
I've house ruled so much, I don't remember canon.
This is the way I run a round: (It's been working for 5 years, so why stop.)
1. Everyone rolls initiative.
2. The character who rolled the highest goes first, or holds.
3. Each character goes in steps of ten. Meaning if you roll a 21, you go on 21, 11, and 1. So yes, fast characters are icky.
Of course I don't allow my players to refresh combat pool each round either (in my opinion, it makes things more difficult and requires more planning).
In an example of player A waiting for Thug B to surrender, this is the way I do it. It's probably not canon.
1. Player A draws his weapon and tells them to surrender. Player A declares that if Thug B doesn't surrender, he's going to shoot him.
2. Thug B doesn't surrender and quick draws his pistol.
3. Compare reaction. The person with the highest reaction shoots first.

My advice: Don't let the rules slow down a good game.
Make a quick descision, so the game doesn't slow down. You can look it up during a break, or after game.


Thats how I originally understood the rules to work. Problem is, the fastest guy got shot all to hell, because he decided to draw his guns and wait, and when the 'bad guys' saw this, they shot him. If we had done the 'delcare from lowest' each round, one of the goons would of said "shooting him" at which time he could react as needed.

I might try to use something similar to yours though. These rules... I think I could write a 20+ page 'guide' just to clear up what we dont really understand with the rules as written.
Rajaat99
QUOTE (Omar the Falcon)
To be honest, I really dont know what to do with downtime. The action I can understand, but the rest? I guess I need to get my players to be a bit more motivated to act on their own. Seems like I have to lead them along a bit too much.

QUOTE
I've house ruled so much, I don't remember canon.
This is the way I run a round: (It's been working for 5 years, so why stop.)
1. Everyone rolls initiative.
2. The character who rolled the highest goes first, or holds.
3. Each character goes in steps of ten. Meaning if you roll a 21, you go on 21, 11, and 1. So yes, fast characters are icky.
Of course I don't allow my players to refresh combat pool each round either (in my opinion, it makes things more difficult and requires more planning).
In an example of player A waiting for Thug B to surrender, this is the way I do it. It's probably not canon.
1. Player A draws his weapon and tells them to surrender. Player A declares that if Thug B doesn't surrender, he's going to shoot him.
2. Thug B doesn't surrender and quick draws his pistol.
3. Compare reaction. The person with the highest reaction shoots first.

My advice: Don't let the rules slow down a good game.
Make a quick descision, so the game doesn't slow down. You can look it up during a break, or after game.


Thats how I originally understood the rules to work. Problem is, the fastest guy got shot all to hell, because he decided to draw his guns and wait, and when the 'bad guys' saw this, they shot him. If we had done the 'delcare from lowest' each round, one of the goons would of said "shooting him" at which time he could react as needed.

If the fastest guy has a low reaction, and he keeps getting shot by the "bad guys" maybe you could have them roll reaction instead. This would give your player the chance to use combat and karma pool.

Downtime: I love downtime. My PC's are like real people. They have friends, girlfriends, favorite hang-outs.
Make them draw up backgrounds. Have them run into someone from thier past. Role-play contacts and contact meets.
Most of my games start out: "Ok, you guys wake up. It's February 13th, 2061. A rainy Sunday. What do you do?"
Now, we don't role-play things like using the bathroom, showering, getting dressed, and eatting breakfast. My players say, "My normal morning routine."
Then I say, "Ok, that takes you about an hour. Yum, Soy for breakfast."
And then the game continues.
I love playing downtime because my players grow closer to thier characters this way.
Abstruse
I tend to gloss over downtime. I'll ask them if they're doing anything during downtime and if not, I move on. Now downtime is time when nothing's happening -- not necessarily when they're on a run. I might throw a little mini-adventure out there, like they run across a random mugging or something else less cliche.

The Abstruse One
Omar the Falcon
QUOTE (Rajaat99)
Downtime: I love downtime. My PC's are like real people. They have friends, girlfriends, favorite hang-outs.
Make them draw up backgrounds. Have them run into someone from thier past. Role-play contacts and contact meets.
Most of my games start out: "Ok, you guys wake up. It's February 13th, 2061. A rainy Sunday. What do you do?"
Now, we don't role-play things like using the bathroom, showering, getting dressed, and eatting breakfast. My players say, "My normal morning routine."
Then I say, "Ok, that takes you about an hour. Yum, Soy for breakfast."
And then the game continues.
I love playing downtime because my players grow closer to thier characters this way.

That sounds like something I will try. Make them get interested in what they do. I would prefer to react to them and what they want then to have to force them along.

QUOTE
If the fastest guy has a low reaction, and he keeps getting shot by the "bad guys" maybe you could have them roll reaction instead. This would give your player the chance to use combat and karma pool.


I think I misspoke. Let me run you through a simple version of what happened.

Mike, Jamie, and Jeb are the players. Goon1, Goon2, and Goon3 are the bad guys. They are all spread out in a Stuffer Shack, but generally in the same area. Reaction looked like this:

Mike 22
Goon1 21
Jeb 18
Goon2 15
Goon3 8
Jamie 7

The way we did it, Mike went first. Jeb and Goon2 were already 'fighting', so this was clearly a combat scene. Mike had his character move away from the biggest group of people (innocent bystanders) and draw his guns (a complex action, as they are in cyber holsters and he had to reach into his pants to get them out). After that Goon1 decided to run up and hit him with a Katana. He had plenty of movement to get next to him, and Mike got hurt real bad. If Mike had known Goon1 was going to come at him, he would of quick drawn a different gun and shot him.

After that, Jeb moves into melee combat with Goon2. They both spend their turns throwing punches. Had Jeb known that his character could move away, he probably would of and blown him away with his hand cannon.

Goon3 jumped on a counter to shoot Mike (missed). Jamie proceeded to walk over and try and chokeslam Goon3 off of the counter and into the floor.


Basicly, the fastest guy drew his gun, and everyone attacked him. Somehow, that doesnt seem right. Had we done reverse order delcare actions, it probably would of gone like this:

Jamie - move to cover (free), hold action
Goon3 - Draw gun, move to cover, take aim on the troll (jamie - biggest threat currently)
Goon2 - Melee with Jeb
Jeb - Melee with Goon
Goon1 - Move to troll with katana in hand, hold action
Mike - Quickdraw pistol, blow Goon1 away

And then would of gone in Int order for actual actions? I am still a bit confused. Mike would of gone first, shooting Goon1, who would be moving over to Jamie. Jeb and Goon2 would of thrown punches, Goon3 would of taken aim, and Jamie would of done nothing. Pass is over.


Pass 2 (assuming no damage which would modify Int score for the round, right?):
Mike - 12
Goon1 - 11
Jeb - 8
Goon2 - 5
Goon3 - No action
Jamie - No action (held action can be used)

Jamie would declare first, casting a spell on the Goon3 who took aim at him (and exploding his head). Goon3 has no action, can do nothing (he didnt say he would be moving last turn except to take cover). Goon2 would be throwing a punch. Jeb says he will move away and shoot Goon2 (Goon2 then says he will spend a free action to move with Jeb, he can do that right?). Goon1 will go after Mike (who shot him) and try to hit him with his katana. Mike will see this, move further away, and keep plugging him with his gun.

So, it goes in order. Mike shoots Goon1 (probably hurting or killing him), if Goon1 survives he can move towards Mike and try to hit him. Jeb moves away, and Goon2 can not keep up. Jeb shoots Goon2. Goon 2 then cant do his action (no longer in melee... how would that work?). Goon3 has no action, Jamie makes Goon3 regret drawing down on him.



Does that sound about right for a combat round? Please tell me that I at least got close to how it is done.
Rajaat99
QUOTE (Omar the Falcon @ Jun 12 2007, 08:38 PM)
Omar the Falcon

QUOTE
The way we did it, Mike went first.  Jeb and Goon2 were already 'fighting', so this was clearly a combat scene.  Mike had his character move away from the biggest group of people (innocent bystanders) and draw his guns (a complex action, as they are in cyber holsters and he had to reach into his pants to get them out).  After that Goon1 decided to run up and hit him with a Katana.  He had plenty of movement to get next to him, and Mike got hurt real bad.  If Mike had known Goon1 was going to come at him, he would of quick drawn a different gun and shot him.


I see this as poor planning on Mike's part, not a problem with the rules. He should've anticipated the Goon charging him. He should've held his action, or quick drew his other weapon and then waited (I allow for this sort of thing, I don't think the rules do).

QUOTE
After that, Jeb moves into melee combat with Goon2.  They both spend their turns throwing punches.  Had Jeb known that his character could move away, he probably would of and blown him away with his hand cannon.


Wait, why didn't he do this?

QUOTE
Basicly, the fastest guy drew his gun, and everyone attacked him.  Somehow, that doesnt seem right.


If I'm with a group of my friends and we get into a fight with another group and someone pulls a gun, one of two things will happen: 1) We'll all run away, or 2) We'll all jump that guy. So, I see it more as bad planning on Mike's part.
Now, I don't see a problem with declaring first and then going. If that's the way you want to do it, then do it.

QUOTE
Does that sound about right for a combat round?  Please tell me that I at least got close to how it is done.


Sounds good to me.
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Omar the Falcon)
Basicly, the fastest guy drew his gun, and everyone attacked him. Somehow, that doesnt seem right.

No, that's right, he made himslef a target and chose to do so in a situation where he was not already in a defensive position and then those who were already prepared for combat decided to remove him.

Speed != Victory (well, not since SR2)
Speed = Opportunity

Use opportunities well, and you win, stand in an open field within 1 second sprinting distance of a guy with a sword and slowly draw a gun that you should've already had in hand, and you get cut.
Rajaat99
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
Use opportunities well, and you win, stand in an open field within 1 second sprinting distance of a guy with a sword and slowly draw a gun that you should've already had in hand, and you get cut.

I couldn't have said it better myself.
Omar the Falcon
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
No, that's right, he made himslef a target and chose to do so in a situation where he was not already in a defensive position and then those who were already prepared for combat decided to remove him.

I see what the problem was. I guess I am still in my SR2 mindset, combined with my Wargaming mindset, and didnt really think of it like that.

So, the best plan for someone who is not prepared to fight (or doesnt know who to fight first) is to hold their action and wait?

Do you guys do the whole 'declare your action' thing first, then act, or have them delcare their action, then act in order from the top down?

As soon as you declare your action, others can declare free actions or that they are jumping in (if they held their action).


So... to go back to that example.


Mike holds his action
Goon1 declares that he will move toward Jamie, no one jumps in, he does so
Jeb and Goon2 fight it out
Goon3 ducks behind cover and aims
Jamie fries Goon3
Mike then has to act (its the end of the turn) or go into the next pass, choosing to shoot someone, draw his bigger gun, dive behind cover, whatever.

Then pass 2?



To answer the qustion about why Jeb didnt move away, that was our confusion over the rules. We are all miniatures players, and so the idea that you could just 'walk away' from a melee fight seemed out of place. We figured you were either locked into combat, or would allow your opponent a free strike (as in, he gets a free punch as you concentrate on moving away). Of course, we couldnt find that, but the melee section is also pretty vague. Part of why I asked that question. If we would of known, either he (or Goon2, who was a shaman) would of moved away and gone to ranged combat (or magic).
Herald of Verjigorm
That is a better plan of Mikes behavior.

As for leaving a melee, I think you can just apply the Interception rule on SR3 page 108.
mfb
the example on page 103 (left-hand column) of SR3 answers exactly how to handle delayed actions. basically, in every phase, every character who has an action in that phase declares their action, starting at the lowest Init score and working up. waiting to see what someone else is going to do on their phase is very easy--you just delay your action until their phase, and then see what action they declare. if, after hearing their declared action, you want to intervene, you may do so. since you have a higher Init score, you automatically get to go before them on that phase.
Omar the Falcon
I guess the terminology is what is bugging me.

The Combat Turn is the whole thing, when everyone rolls Int at the start.
The Initative Pass is the part where people act from highest to lowest.
The Number on which each character acts is called the Combat Phase.


So, the Combat Turn beings when everyone rolls Int. The Initative Pass is the numbers at which people act. So, lets say it looks like this:

Mike - 21
Goon1 - 18
Goon2 - 7

That would be the first pass. Mike would have his combat phase on 21. Goon1 would have his on 18. Goon 2 would have his on 7.

On the Combat Phase of 21, Mike acts. He says he will delay his action. On the combat phase of 18, Goon1 acts. He declares that he will shoot mike with his gun. Mike then says he will intervene, and shoot both Goon1 and Goon2. Mike will go before Goon1, as he delayed his action.

If Mike chooses not to act, he has to act on Combat Phase 1, or delay into the next pass, in which case he looses his action for that pass.


Ok, it is starting to click now.


I think I will use the Interception rule for leaving Melee.


With movement they have to declare how they are moving at the start of the combat Turn. If they choose to remain stationary at the beginning of the turn and later may change their movement during any combat phase. I think that will help to have them declare when they roll, that way they know what target mods there will be.


Its like a fog has been lifted...
mfb
QUOTE
The Combat Turn is the whole thing, when everyone rolls Int at the start.
The Initative Pass is the part where people act from highest to lowest.
The Number on which each character acts is called the Combat Phase.

correct.
Link
QUOTE (Omar the Falcon)
If Mike chooses not to act, he has to act on Combat Phase 1, or delay into the next pass, in which case he looses his action for that pass. 

With movement they have to declare how they are moving at the start of the combat Turn.  If they choose to remain stationary at the beginning of the turn and later may change their movement during any combat phase.  I think that will help to have them declare when they roll, that way they know what target mods there will be.

Strictly speaking, the delayed action continues up to Mike's action in the next initiative pass. Mike can take the delayed action or forfeit it and delay his new action.
This allows him to keep someone covered for instance.

QUOTE
Mike had his character move away from the biggest group of people (innocent bystanders) and draw his guns (a complex action, as they are in cyber holsters and he had to reach into his pants to get them out). After that Goon1 decided to run up and hit him with a Katana. He had plenty of movement to get next to him, and Mike got hurt real bad. If Mike had known Goon1 was going to come at him, he would of quick drawn a different gun and shot him.


As movement is considered to take place over the whole pass, having characters declare movement at the start of each pass is somewhat more realistic and prevents situations as you described above. The combatants still declare actions on their combat phase.
Omar the Falcon
QUOTE (Link)
Strictly speaking, the delayed action continues up to Mike's action in the next initiative pass. Mike can take the delayed action or forfeit it and delay his new action.
This allows him to keep someone covered for instance.

The way I read it, if you delay into the next pass, you automatically loose your action for that pass. So, I suppose you could keep someone covered, but if you were the highest Int anyway, there really isnt much point. Wait until the guy you are covering takes his action, use yours, and then start again next turn (as you are the first to act) by delaying and keeping the guy covered.

Thats how I read it anyway.

QUOTE
As movement is considered to take place over the whole pass, having characters declare movement at the start of each pass is somewhat more realistic and prevents situations as you described above. The combatants still declare actions on their combat phase.


*nod* Thats the plan.


Here is another movement related question. It says that you move at whatever rate you choose, divided by the number of passes in the combat turn. If you dont have an action, you move at the end of the turn. So, lets say someone got a 21 for Int. That means three passes (21, 11, 1). If they get nailed with a serious wound on the first pass, they will loose their third pass. So, if no one has an action, the pass still happens, everyone will move, but no one does anything? That sound about right?



Thanks again to everyone for all of the help with this!
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Omar the Falcon)
QUOTE
As movement is considered to take place over the whole pass, having characters declare movement at the start of each pass is somewhat more realistic and prevents situations as you described above. The combatants still declare actions on their combat phase.


*nod* Thats the plan.

QUOTE (SR3 p.108 Last sentance under "Movement")
Characters can begin the turn stationary and declare their movement during any subsequent Combat Phase.


By the book, you can start moving at any time, but once you move, you're set at that movement penalty for the rest of the round.
Omar the Falcon
Ok, got the Combat Turn mostly figured out, as well as movement. Thanks again to everyone who helped with that.


Now, about physical combat. How do you represent moves more involved than "I puch/kick him in the (insert random location here)"? Using the example on the previous page, I had a player who wanted to get into melee with an opponent and slam him to the ground. I had another player who wanted to do something like a full-nelson and use the other person as a shield.


Another question for you, dealing with damage. When does someone get knocked over as a result of their wounds? I mean, I figured a light wound was little more than a graze. You will have a nice scar from it, but nothing vital or even that serious. A moderate wound would be a deeper flesh wound, with a nice chunk missing or a non-vital area of the bosy. A severe wound would be very serious, with a bullet going clean through, broken bones, etc. A deadly wound would either kill outright or put them in so much pain they pass out (and will probably bleed out if not taken care of).

How do you handle stuff like blood-loss? If you have a (insert wound type here) does it 'get worse' if not treated. Do all wounds do that (light, mod, serious, etc)?

Would a very powerful attack knock someone down? I would think if it was power 10 or more (or perhaps 12?) even if your armor stopped the attack and you soaked the damage, you would be knocked down from the force of impact.


Thoughts/opinons?
mfb
knockdown rules are in the combat section. people don't use them very often.

there are no rules for blood loss, or for bleeding. in the advanced healing rules in Man and Machine, i believe it's possible for a wound to get worse if it's not properly treated--basically, if you fail your healing check, there's a chance you could take further damage.
Kagetenshi
There are sorta rules for bleeding--specifically, the bleeding-out rules for Deadly damage. Not really broadly useful.

That said, Omar, you should reevaluate your view of wound levels. A Light wound is enough to make everything you do meaningfully harder--think a stab wound or a small-caliber gunshot to a non-vital body part. It is most certainly not a graze.

~J
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Omar the Falcon)
Now, about physical combat. How do you represent moves more involved than "I puch/kick him in the (insert random location here)"?

Canon Companion has extended martial arts rules if you want more fancy maneuvers, the other option is just to handle it as a combination of stylistic descriptions and called shots for effect.
Omar the Falcon
mfb - Thanks. I totally missed that. Not sure that we will use them (I can see how they would add a layer of complexity to the combat), but its good to know they are there.

Kagetenshi - Looking at the healing table is what made me think that. A base time of 24 hours and a minimum of 2 hours to heal light would would lead me to believe that the wound is superficial. Annoying, distracting, but not deadly by any means. I would say a stab is more of a Moderate wound, at best. As would a gunshot that did anything more than graze. A light wound would heal on its own with a bandage of some sort. A Moderate wound or better probably requires stitches.

Herald - Called shots! Thats a great idea! If they want to do anything fancy, its a called shot, and if they manage to do it it might add something (such as knockdown, as one wanted to do, or movement and a resisted stregnth test with the other).


Thanks!
Kagetenshi
My view comes from the wound modifier combined with the difficulty numbers table on page 92: a Light wound is sufficient to turn an Average task into a Challenging task, for example. Also note that healing time is until you no longer have modifiers, not necessarily until the wound has vanished completely.

As for wounds healing on their own, there's already a roll in the Healing section to determine whether or not healing requires medical attention.

~J
Omar the Falcon
To each his own, I suppose.
mfb
wound modifiers are a tricky thing. in real life, being hurt is generally either going to stop you completely or not affect you much at all. specific injuries might affect certain tasks--broken fingers aren't disabling, but they'll make it just about impossible to fire a gun--but in generally, getting hurt in the middle of a fight is a no/no-go proposition. you either go down, or you go on.
Kagetenshi
I'm going to disagree with thatmy experience is that people generally don't fight as well after they take a few solid but non-disabling blows, and my old knife instructor always claimed that after a few cuts people tend to slow down. My experience is not vast, however.

~J
mfb
maybe it's just hard to notice performance degradation in the heat of the moment.
tisoz
QUOTE (Omar the Falcon)
Had another one, regarding hand to hand combat.

This last game, I had a player who wanted to 'chokeslam' an opponent. His opponent was an average sized human, he was a troll who was in a pretty good position to do just that.

I have seen GMs invoke the Called Shot rule many times when a player makes such a declsration. Although it is technically correct, it usually is less effective because of the huge TN modifier, especially in melee, than just declaring an attack and using chokeslam as a description of the outcome.

QUOTE
I had another player who wanted to grapple with his opponent to use him as a shield to prevent being shot.

Again, technically, the rules for subduing combat should probably be implemented. Again, the rules do not favor such a declaration because of the TN modifiers, which are crucial in melee combat. A wise player would probably just engage in melee and render the opponent unconscious, then declare they were holding the unconscious body as a shield. If the player did not think they could render the opponent unconconscious and hold the body as cover before the other opponent chose to shoot, they might declare they are using the melee opponent as cover and trying to keep him between themself and the shooter for some TN modifiers on the shooters Test or the players Dodge Test.

QUOTE
Now, you can put the condition in your action that you will be 'spending your movement to stay in melee with your opponent' and even if your out of actions, you will move with your opponent automatically (provided they are not faster than you)?

Pretty much. Movement requires no action.

QUOTE
How do you handle more complex physical attacks, such as slams, throws, armlocks, etc? I wanted to avoid the special combat rules in CComp, but I might reconsider unless I missed something.

I would just use the descriptions in describing the outcome of the attack. The CC rules are for purchased maneuvers (usually costing more than they are worth) and usually only apply a 1 or 2 point modifier to the combat. I suppose you could houserule and implement the modifiers into declared actions (without buying any maneuvers.)
tisoz
QUOTE (Omar the Falcon)
So, the Combat Turn begins when everyone rolls Int. The Initative Pass is the numbers at which people act. So, lets say it looks like this:

Mike - 21
Goon1 - 18
Goon2 - 7

That would be the first pass. Mike would have his combat phase on 21. Goon1 would have his on 18. Goon2 would have his on 7.

On the Combat Phase of 21, Mike acts. He says he will delay his action. On the combat phase of 18, Goon1 acts. He declares that he will shoot mike with his gun. Mike then says he will intervene, and shoot both Goon1 and Goon2. Mike will go before Goon1, as he delayed his action.

You got a lot of incorrect reponses, though you show you understand them by your last paragraph.

Actually the rules on page 104 under the heading Declaring Actions states actions are declared from lowest to highest Initiative. So there is no real need for Mike to declare he is Delaying his action because he can hear the Goons state their actions. Mike can just declare he is immediately attacking the Goons.
tisoz
QUOTE (Omar the Falcon)
Now, about physical combat. How do you represent moves more involved than "I puch/kick him in the (insert random location here)"? Using the example on the previous page, I had a player who wanted to get into melee with an opponent and slam him to the ground. I had another player who wanted to do something like a full-nelson and use the other person as a shield.

Answered in previous post.

QUOTE
Another question for you, dealing with damage.  When does someone get knocked over as a result of their wounds?  I mean, I figured a light wound was little more than a graze.  You will have a nice scar from it, but nothing vital or even that serious.  A moderate wound would be a deeper flesh wound, with a nice chunk missing or a non-vital area of the bosy.  A severe wound would be very serious, with a bullet going clean through, broken bones, etc.  A deadly wound would either kill outright or put them in so much pain they pass out (and will probably bleed out if not taken care of).

Knockdown rules are on page 124.

QUOTE
How do you handle stuff like blood-loss?  If you have a (insert wound type here) does it 'get worse' if not treated.  Do all wounds do that (light, mod, serious, etc)?

I use the rules for Healing physical damage with/without medical care for L, M, and S wounds. They are on page 126-127. For D wounds, I use the damage overflow rules to represent bleeding out, page 126.

QUOTE
Would a very powerful attack knock someone down?  I would think if it was power 10 or more (or perhaps 12?) even if your armor stopped the attack and you soaked the damage, you would be knocked down from the force of impact.

See the Knockdown rules on 124.
tisoz
QUOTE (Omar the Falcon)
Herald - Called shots! Thats a great idea! If they want to do anything fancy, its a called shot, and if they manage to do it it might add something (such as knockdown, as one wanted to do, or movement and a resisted stregnth test with the other).


Thanks!

It's a sucky idea, as I stated in a previous post that some GMs invoke. It is sucky because a +4 TN in melee is likely to tip the balance from total success to probable failure. About the onlt time it is worthwhile is if the character making the called shot far outskills the target and the target is heavily armored or is easily resisting all damage. (Maybe if both opponents are quite unskilled and week, and a lucky hit resulting in damage shifts the edge to the attacker.) Then the +1 damage level might be useful. Otherwise, not increasing the TN by 4 will likely result in more than the +1 damage level outcome.

I would let the players continue to make colorful descriptions of their intended actions as it makes the game more entertaining, and using stated descriptions as input for the description of the outcome of the attack.
Link
QUOTE (tisoz)
Actually the rules on page 104 under the heading Declaring Actions states actions are declared from lowest to highest Initiative.  So there is no real need for Mike to declare he is Delaying his action because he can hear the Goons state their actions.  Mike can just declare he is immediately attacking the Goons.

The rules on p104 require players to declare their actions in their combat phase (rather than initiative pass) and if multiple characters are acting in that phase declare from lowest to highest.
QUOTE
DECLARING ACTIONS
When it is your character's turn to act. you must declare the actions that he or she is going to perform during the Combat Phase, You may take Free, Simple and Complex Actions in any order during your Combat Phase. If there are multiple characters acting within one Combat Phase, the characters declare one with the lowest beginning Initiative Score (or whatever is used to break an Initiative tie, see Initiative Ties.) to the character with the highest Initiative.
Omar the Falcon
Thanks for all of the replies! About to head out for the weekend, but I have a few replies.

- The way I re-read the rules for the combat turn is that you only declare from lowest to highest if you both act on the same phase. As in, two people roll a 12, there are steps to determine who is the 'lowest' person, and they declare first. Otherwise, it goes from the top down.. and the fastest person should probably be smart enough to go for cover, or hold their action until they get targeted.

- I want to imply the +4 mod because they want to add 'other' things to the attack. The chokeslam would be a melee attack that would result in knockdown. The 'human shield' would result in damage and moving them between the player and the other goon with the gun. Etc. I favor creative descriptions of fights, but when they want to do more than damage their opponent, I have to put a limit in there. I might lower the mod because it isnt a true called shot, but probably just to +3 or +2.


Thanks!
Wounded Ronin
A penalty on the order of 2 or 3 is still significant. I think you have to approach the problem in this way: you have to decide whether you want specialty attacks to be effective in general against equal opponents, or if you want them to only work against weaker opponents. 2 or 3 would ensure they're only feasible against weaker opponents. If you want them to work against enemies who are equally tough and skilled as the characters you really don't want it to be higher than 1 or else it basically won't work. 1 is still significant but it's the smallest penalty you can apply.
tisoz
QUOTE (Link)
QUOTE (tisoz)
Actually the rules on page 104 under the heading Declaring Actions states actions are declared from lowest to highest Initiative.  So there is no real need for Mike to declare he is Delaying his action because he can hear the Goons state their actions.  Mike can just declare he is immediately attacking the Goons.

The rules on p104 require players to declare their actions in their combat phase (rather than initiative pass) and if multiple characters are acting in that phase declare from lowest to highest.
QUOTE
DECLARING ACTIONS
When it is your character's turn to act. you must declare the actions that he or she is going to perform during the Combat Phase, You may take Free, Simple and Complex Actions in any order during your Combat Phase. If there are multiple characters acting within one Combat Phase, the characters declare one with the lowest beginning Initiative Score (or whatever is used to break an Initiative tie, see Initiative Ties.) to the character with the highest Initiative.

Good, I'm glad that got cleared up for me. Quickly looking at the rules, I wondered why every group I've ever played with had done it wrong. Turns out it was right after all.
Critias
Since your group seems to like hand to hand combat (and cool tricks therein) you might want to look on eBay or something for the Cannon Companion book. Despite the name, it's not just a big book of cool guns, it's also got advanced combat rules (including an overhauled melee combat set up, with martial arts styles, rules for grappling and throwing, etc).
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