Just a random thought, I know it's not what the writers intended but if you were really picky over RAW you could interpret it this way, when a person if hit with a gun with electrical damage the gun has an ap of 1/2 so you would divide the armour by2. Then you would resist electrical with 1/2 impact. So in effect you would be getting 1/4 impact. The only real argument to support this would be magical electrical damage. Nowhere does it give a AP modifier but you still resist with 1/2 impact. So giving guns the 1/2 really makes them powerful. The stats should be listed as no AP as the damage is already electrical. (remember the little e after the damage code.)

Given how many times it is explicitly stated that electrical damage is resisted by half impact armor, rounded up, including under the descripion of tasers, I don't think that is a reasonably valid interpretation.

I don't personally have a problem with stick-n-shock ammo, or it being used in light or holdout pistols, but it is still effective enough already.

That which is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Stick 'n Shock is effective. So effective, of course, that it has replaced Hollow Point (or whatever) as the standard ammunition of Lone Star, Knight Errant, and basically any armed security company that's not teetering on the verge of bankruptcy. They retain the intimidation (and versitility) of a firearm, while safe in that they are firing Less than Lethal rounds - and as a bonus, Stick 'n Shock is effective against drones and Spirits of Force 8 or less, whereas you would otherwise need AV ammo for the former and Panther ACs for the latter.

And, as well, any such security which comes in "armored" variety will have, as a default, the maximum amount of nonconductive option added to their armor, because it really sucks to have your own guns shot at you.

Et voila. Your problems are solved, elegantly. Your PCs' Stick 'n Shock is still useful, but it will backfire massively if they try to use it against security personelle. Likewise, Security personelle will fire it at them all the time.

Armor jacket w/ nonconductivity 6. Resistance to normal bullets: 8 . Resistance to electrical damage: 9. Hardly a 'massive backfire'.

And thus begins the "PCs vs GM Global Arms Race," from which there can be no winner.

Games aren't supposed to be contests, players versus GM. If there's something in your game you think is abusive or overpowered, just talk to your players about it -- don't try to "get back at them" by suddenly having every NPC in the game use the abusive/overpowered stuff, too.

Dancer, considering the players were expecting the guy with the armored jacket to have one third of that to resist their S'n'S with, yes, I'd call that a massive backfire.

"My bullets bounce off!" comes to mind!


And Crit, why not? It's not a PCs vs GM Global Arms Race.

It's a Lone Star vs. Criminals arms race. Hell, the players can take advantage of the Lone Star standard load-out by loading themselves up with nonconductivity, and getting at minimum one initiative round's worth of Lone Star being able to do all of Jack and Shit to them, while they unload with (pick)normal lead/AP/AV/Ex-Ex.

If you, as the GM, are purposefully and knowingly equipping every cop, soldier, and security goon in the game you, as the GM, run with stick and shock rounds...and doing so in retaliation for the players always equipping themselves always equipping stick and shock rounds, on the grounds that they're more effective than they should be...

...then, yes. It's a players vs. GMs thing. If every serious gun in the world is packing high-voltage nerf darts instead of real bullets, and is doing so because the real bullets just aren't dangerous enough by comparison, "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em!" is a cop out and not a solution. If the ammunition that firearms are built around -- small pieces of metal moving very fast into and through soft fleshy things -- is less effective than stupid stun-gun bullets, there's a problem. If it's less effective so much so that the GM thinks it's an issue, a responsible GM should address the issue, not just embrace it in order to keep up with the PCs.

So would you rather play in a game where stick and shock rounds were (and this is all assuming they ARE a problem) reigned in and balanced compared to other ammunition and armor types, or in a game where the GM randomly switches the armor and ammunition of every security force in the world back and forth ever few jobs, to "one up" the group of PCs?

If something is abusive, a loophole, a rule that needs fixing, why not fix it instead of basing your entire game world around it?

Not Soldiers.

Just cops and security goons. It makes sense, since these organizations want effective weapons, and they also want less-than-lethal soloutions. Stick 'n Shock is an effective and less than lethal soloution. As an added bonus, the new "standard" load also gives a beat cop a (slight) chance if he finds himself in conflict with armored drones and/or spirits, threats against which normal ammo would not be appropriate for. Imagine the public outcry if Lone Star started issueing Ex-Ex or Antivehicular bullets (ignoring the absurdity of an antivehicular pistol) ammunition.

But S'n'S? It's a godsend. It's effective against armored targets, it's affective against drones and spirits, it renders people unconcious faster than even a Yamaha Pulsar, from greater range, and it uses the same weapon skill, so if they really need to, they can exchange the ammo in the pistol by default for their emergency clip of AV/Ex-Ex when they come up against a target upgraded for nonconductivity.

It's also public relations godsend, because they can whitewash their image as protectors of the peace while stating that they only employ less-than-lethal soloutions on a day-to-day basis.

Frankly, I can't see how they could not embrace Stick 'n Shock as the best thing that came along since sliced bread. (Plus, I do believe it would entitle them to claim a portion of Big D's bequeathments, which can't have escaped notice - hell, if nothing else, the bequest from Big D for employing a wide-scale less-than-lethal soloution would at least cover the costs of converting to Stick 'n Shock.)

So was every single police and security company in your games using gel rounds all the time, before S&S came around? And it's not just a recent trend, inspired by the (possible) "brokenness" of stick and shock ammo?

Because your "good for the goose, good for the gander" comment above certainly makes it sound like your rationale for equipping them with this ammo has nothing to do with any of the above, and more to do with "if the PCs are going to abuse overpowered ammo, I'll show THEM an abuse over overpowered ammo!" Which is what I'm against.

Of course not. Gel rounds were highly ineffective, especially against targets such as trolls.

Stick 'n Shock is an overpowered, munchkiny round, I harbor no delusions nor spin no illusions about that.

Instead of handwaving or houseruling it, I incorporate it. I say that the fact that Stick 'n Shock is a highly effective round that bypasses most defenses, that can with relative safety render a (meta)human target unconcious instead of dead, but that when fired at a robotic or mystical target deals lethal damage capable of dropping the target, has not escaped the attention of Lone Star.

Similar to the replacement of semiautomatic long rifles, such as the Garand, and bolt-action rifles like the Kar-98, with automatic battle rifles in the form we know of them today, it's simply a superior choice, in all respects.

There's where things like Knowledge skills come in. If something is effective, don't you think that people will use them? If something is so effective, don't you think people will try to come up with ways to neutralise them? Where are people in that cycle?

If that rule is so truly abusive, then why can't basing your entire game world around an "abusive" loophole fixing it?

I think stick and shock should be used by security forces, but I wouldn't make it the standard round, nor would every rent-a-thug have a 1200 armor modification to help them resist electrical attacks. For security forces, you need to mix it up a bit, rather than making them all the same.

Also, I've never bought into the whole "If the PCs use it, so will all of the NPCs" argument. The PCs should generally have gear and weaponry superior to that of the average security guard, while groups such as Tir ghosts will have gear that is out of reach for most PCs. NPCs simply cover a wider range, from barely credible threats to world-shaking powers, so it breaks logic for them to match the PCs exactly in every circumstance.

I said Lone Star would have nonconductive armor, not rent-a-thugs. I do, however, believe that every rent-a-thug should be packing S'n'S.

And Toturi, there already is a counter to S'n'S, it's called the Nonconductive armor mod. Lone Star will have it, because getting shot with your own guns suck, and the PCs will probably have it, because getting shot by Lone Star sucks. PCs will carry S'n'S because they can use it to neutralize non-Lone-Star targets nonlethally and quickly, because they can load a lot of it into a holdout pistol and it will have the same effect as if they'd fired it out of their Ares Predator (which presumably they keep loaded with AP/AV/Ex-Ex for delaing with Lone Star and other targets whom they wish to have a more permenant nap), and because it allows even a mundane a chance to deal damage to a spirit, and it allows a mundane who's not packing AV loaded in an Ares Alpha or a Panther AC to deal damage to drones. (As an added bonus, frying a Drone's systems will probably be much easier to repair and reboot the drone than blsting it apart - PCs could pick up some spare change by zapping and recovering things like Fly Eyes, etcetera.)

StickandshockRun, coming soon to stores near you!

Sorry, it but just seems silly to me to base every firefight in a game around something if it's a problem, instead of fixing the problem. If you know something is so effective any other option is silly, something is wrong with game balance. Rather than embracing that out of spite for the players noticing that game balance issue first, I guess I'm used to GMs that aren't afraid to tinker with the rules a little and balance things.

But to each his own. *shrugs*

I guess you prefer your players leaving wide swathes of bloody carnage behind them whenever they need to render uncombative someone who's not a kidnapping target, eh?

I'd rather they just tazed them unconcious, and they're PCs. They're naturally going to use the most effective tool for the job - High-voltage cordite-propelled nerf. (And yes, I know that neither 2070, not 2007, actually uses cordite.)

That's immaterial to the discussion at hand. Whether my players (or my characters) default to lethal or non lethal weapons isn't what's being discussed -- that one specific ammunition type (that happens to be non lethal) is head and shoulders above other ammunition types (even the other non lethal ones) is the subject of the conversation.

Why do people make tasers, if stick and shock is so much better? Why do people still buy gel rounds? Why train anyone to use a stun baton any more and waste money on them (if you can devote that time to additional sidearm training, and just give them stick and shock)?

If stick and shock is that much better, it just seems to me that there's a balance issue, is all. And if that's true -- I haven't played enough SR4 to know either way if this is a real issue or not -- why embrace something that's so overpowered as to imbalance the game (and start equipping everyone with it, basing the equipment selection of all the NPCs on the assumption of stick and shock, etc, etc)?

That's my overall point. If something's broken, why not fix it instead of let it imbalance a campaign like that?

It doesn't matter to me what it is that's broken (whether it's lethal or non lethal ammo, a suit of armor, or whatever). It's just a difference in mindset, I guess. If I see something that's game-imbalancingly broken, I house rule it and leave the other options (in this case, other ammo) in the book as viable choices. I don't just start kitting out all my NPCs with the snazzy new toy in retaliation ("goose...gander") for my PCs noticing the loophole first.

Seems to me like an easy fix/house rule might be something like "apply the standard damage value of the weapon in question but change it from physical to stun, give it a - armor penetration (negate whatever the weapon normally has), and apply the 1/2 Impact rules/nonconductivity from special armor."

Same basic damage as the gun being used (so hold outs have smaller darts/charges than shotguns), mixed with the standard "electric/shock" attack rules (1/2 impact, nonconductive armor helping out, etc). Seems like it would be a decent little house rule.

No. No 'easy fixes/changes/whatever'.

SnS does not exist in my games, period.
There isn't a projektile that features a capacitor wrapped in sticky goo large enough to actually shock somebody, having the same trajectory as standard ammunition and being non-lethal.
Sure, you can make such things for shotguns. But if they fly as fast and thus as far as normal slugs, the only thing the capacitor will do is make the corpse twitch more.

When SnS is "discovered" to be more effective than normal rounds, people in the game world will start using it more often leading to people wearing non-conductive armor or have things like Pain Editor, and so on. If you play your game world as a static place, that would be problem but if you play it like a dynamic world that reacts to stimuli, then there will be a reaction.

A spiral of escalation is not a solution.

What I might accept is reducing the range of any weapon using SnS to Taser ranges and make them become singleshot due to the fact that with the reduced amount of propellent (as much as propulsion as a taser uses), automatic reloading doesn't work.

Essentially making SnS a specialist ammunition, usually custom ordered. About as common as throwings darts with taser tips.

My general response to Stick and Shock worries used to be; just assume most armor has some insulation capabilities. There's rules about elemental damage protection in armor, but you have to buy it extra. Eccept when you go into a store and buy an armor jacket, who really thinks it goes like; "yeah here's the jacket, would you like shock protection with that?"? I'd just assume that there's some basic level of protection towards different elemental damage in any off the rack armor piece unless the player specificly wanted the cheapest thing.

Most armor has - that's why you get half impact protection.

That's just what is given by any armor, no matter what. I mean that personal protection in the cyber future could well be made with a cocktail of different protective features that the rules let you add by yourself. It's in the power of the GM to offer a simple pre-made choice of armor with those features to players that are normaly not picky enough to micro manage their gear, if the likes of Stick and Shock is screwing with the ballance.

The issue of SnS is not DV/AP - it's range and RoF.

It got the same DV/AP as a non-wired taser, so that is not a problem.
But it hasn't the limitations of a taser. If somebody was to present a full auto taser with the range of an assault rifle, everyone would scream munchkin.

granted

Does Stick and Shock have the secondary electrical effects?

My major problem with Stick and Shock is this:

Shadowrun is a fast and deadly world. Death is cheap, violence is ubiquitous and nobody with any means to do anything about it cares about the people at the bottom. Shadowrunners maybe have a choice to do something about that, they can be the Robin Hoods if they want to. But in fighting The Man you're going to go up against poor Jim Security on the Man's payroll.

If you shoot him right in the face, how are you any better than the system you're fighting? So you can choose to subdue him in a non-lethal fashion, but that's harder to do. You have to be just that little bit better to be effective without killing people, moral superiority has its cost because killing is just so simple. Gel rounds do less damage, tasers have crappy range, injection and/or DMSO stuff is exotic and memorable. Let's forget about stunbolt, it's an option for less than 1% of people.

Stick n' Shock breaks that. It makes non-lethal methods BETTER than lethal methods. It gives everyone the ability to shoot first and ask questions later and still look like they're the good guys.

I don't want to play that version of Shadowrun.