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Ravor
IF your posistion holds true for Cyberware then everyone in the Sixth World must have gotten a lobotomy after Crash 2.0 because it is extremely stupid to render by design your cyberware vunable to every Decker that passes by when it wasn't beforehand.
ShadowDragon8685
Yeah... To be honest, if this was my choice, I'd make my characters born in about 2045, and say they got all their cyber before Crash 2.0.
Synner
QUOTE (Ravor @ Jun 24 2007, 06:29 AM)
However, based off Synner's post I'm not entirely sure that cyber was really meant to be hackable by every passing Decker.

Most off-the-shelf cyberware will come with a number of wi-fi enabled functions active, including stuff like systems diagnostics programs (to enable cyberdocs to run checks and evaluate the general condition and integrity of the implant). To work properly diagnostics systems need to be able to verify and to some extent control the various active components of a cyberimplant. Hacking into a cyberimplant's diagnostics system can achieve many of the same things as controlling the implant directly. However, disabling wi-fi functionality does not compromise your ability to use your implant, since control is DNI (it will oblige a cyberdoc to cut into you to fix things though). A halfway solution is to "fortify" your PAN.

QUOTE
Interfacing with other implants is usually done internally, as every implant comes with free hardwiring to other implants.

Usually but not always. Having an implanted commlink in a cyberlimb is an instance where an implanted device might interface directly (wirelessly) with AR goggles, gloves, or the Matrix itself, but there are others.
Rotbart van Dainig
Commlinks are always intended as outbound ports. wink.gif
Ravor
Ok so I guess I'd ask that given the state of computer security in the Sixth World why would anyone (not just Runners) ever leave the Wireless Functions on or connect their Cyber to thier Matrix enababled PANs for any real length of time if doing so renders their cyber vunerable to being hacked by every passing Decker or Script-Kiddie? (This is one place where I more or less agree with Samantha, Fourth does seem like its leaning towards being a Decker's Eden, and I don't see that as necessarily being a good thing.)

A second question that comes to mind is what would you see as proper "fortification" of one's cyberware connected PAN in order to provide enough security to keep a rival Decker from making your cyberarm shoot yourself in the face? Or in Joe Average's case, be forced to make lewd gestures in public, ect...
hobgoblin
why would anyone connect a non-firewalled windows box online?

because they dont know any better, and because its convenient...
Ravor
True, but there is a difference between a hackable computer and hackable Cyberware.
hobgoblin
maybe thats why the public become so scared of the TM?
Synner
That and the media and specialists saying that Technomancers are Crash-virus spawn whose powers are inexplicable, and their ultimate abilities and agenda unknown and nefarious.

One thing is what players know about a technomancer's abilities from the rules, yet another is the perception of those abilities that is spun by certain corporations during the course of Emergence.

Of course, that's nothing like having your players worry about the feral AI that's taken up residence in their cyberlimb.
Samantha
Not to mention the TM's being the scape goats when their hospital blew up.
fistandantilus4.0
That's what spoiler tags are for Sam. smile.gif

[ Spoiler ]
Jaid
[ Spoiler ]
fistandantilus4.0
[ Spoiler ]
Synner
[ Spoiler ]
Sterling
QUOTE (Critias)

And, well, if I was going to BUY a cyberarm, I'd pay attention to anything I got that said "PRODUCT RECALL ON YOUR FUCKING ARM" that I got from the guys that built it for me. 


Especially after said arm started repeatedly punching you in the face!

So I go out and get a stock Mitsuhama 'Quiet Whispers' cyberarm and get it installed. Now this piece of tech will broadcast (if I let it) diagnostic info, stress analysis, power level, feedback parameters, etc. If I leave that on, sure, someone can detect the node and frag with it.

It also is asking for input, and I'd expect it to want to download the newest patch and firmware upgrades as soon as it comes out... much like your computer tries to do right now if you let it. So sure, a cyberarm normally sends and receives data (but not constantly).

I also imagine that somewhere in the owner's manual it mentions the option of turning it off, but that means you'd lose out on the very information that lets you get the most out of 'your new limb that's engineered to be better than the one you were born with!™'

So a seasoned runner will kill (either internally, or externally AKA adding an 'off' switch) any wireless function that could compromise them. Screw worrying about Security detecting your commlink when you're deep inside the Aztech complex, worry about your arm suddenly asking 'Hey, are there any new upgrades out there I need?'

Your average wageslave won't worry about turning off their cyberarm's wireless functionality since it's so handy, which means hackers do have more options nowadays, but also that pretty much anyone can be somewhat of a decent hacker (or have a specialty or two) if they want. But the question is this.. it's easy (allegedly) to hack my cyberarm, but is it worth it? If cyberware is 'old' tech and frowned upon, that means you could argue there's only a small segment with cyberlimbs (which I'm not sure about) so it could be 10% or 45%. But if Seattle alone has four million people in it (and another half million in visitors every day) that's four hundred thousand to almost two million people with 'ware. Who do you pick to hack? There's more to hack, sure, but the same old legwork has to take place first before you spend all that time subtly hacking the janitor's cyberleg instead of the guy you wanted. 'Hah, he's mopping the floor in a very inefficient manner!!' 'Sure, but what does that do for us? Avoid the dirty parts of the floor?'

Sure, some of the older tech is inherently 'safer' in the fact it's not broadcasting anything to anyone, but that also means a lot of the new techniques for avoiding downtime on hardware are lost to you. And yeah, I can see a datajack throwing out wireless info, but only on data transfer speed, hardline signal quality, etc. I can also see it being a very simple task to add a microswitch to the system that does that, and place it in the 'off' position.

It's a lot like the portable music industry in terms of technology. In 1987 I used a Sony Walkman that played cassette tapes. In 1997 I had a Sony Discman that played CDs. Now I have a PSP that plays MP3s, but also can pick up (and transmit) wirelessly to the net, play games, watch movies, etc. It does have an 'off' switch for the wireless (which means it won't drain the battery as fast and can be used on planes). Sure, the old Sony Walkman works fine, but there's functionality you're losing out on when you don't have the newer device. I'm sure if I was using the wireless function someone could hack my PSP, but there's only a handful of people out there who could and I doubt I'll ever run into one.
Ravor
Very good points Sterling, however there is one major point that needs to be stressed, sure in the Real World there aren't very many people who can hack into your PSP or MP3 Player, ect. The problem is one that you've mentioned, in the Sixth World virtually anyone can be a half-way decent Decker and someone controlling your Cyberlimb or crashing your Cybereyes is alot more serious then them hacking into your gaming system or music player.

Also something else that should be mentioned is that in the Sixth World someone could even release Agents or Sprites to cause havoc, which is something that I'm sure has crossed the minds of the Decker/Technomancer players more then once when a distraction was called for, so I guess at least when it comes to something that is actually a part of your body Matrix Security is going to be more forefront in 2070 then it is in 2007.

And of course, based off my admittedly limited reading of Emergence, Matrix Security should only get tougher as 2070 rolls on, not lighter.
Sterling
QUOTE (Ravor)
Very good points Sterling, however there is one major point that needs to be stressed, sure in the Real World there aren't very many people who can hack into your PSP or MP3 Player, ect. The problem is one that you've mentioned, in the Sixth World virtually anyone can be a half-way decent Decker and someone controlling your Cyberlimb or crashing your Cybereyes is alot more serious then them hacking into your gaming system or music player.

Also something else that should be mentioned is that in the Sixth World someone could even release Agents or Sprites to cause havoc, which is something that I'm sure has crossed the minds of the Decker/Technomancer players more then once when a distraction was called for, so I guess at least when it comes to something that is actually a part of your body Matrix Security is going to be more forefront in 2070 then it is in 2007.

And of course, based off my admittedly limited reading of Emergence, Matrix Security should only get tougher as 2070 rolls on, not lighter.

My point about the music players was how technology rolls on. I'm sure there are people still using a walkman, but the newer tech is much more convenient, even if it's less secure.

Keep in mind anyone with installed cyberware (or any other item that has wireless functionality) can turn off the wireless mode with a 'simple command', which requires a manual action to turn back on... or you can tell it to 'turn back on' at a designated time. (Main Book, page 304)

It might just be as simple as Bob's cyberarm is modded by his corporation into using encryption. Actually, what makes MORE sense is that since the RAW mentions you can turn off cyberware's wireless access with a command, when Wageslave Bob leaves his office, as he exits the office network/building, the network sends a command to turn off his cyberware's wireless functions (or as soon as he leaves the range of the office, it shuts down automatically... that's just a firmware update right there). If Wageslave Bob was silly enough to store upcoming project data on his cyberarm, and as he left the office told it to shut down wireless functions, the only way you're going to hack his arm now is with a combat axe. When Bob returns to work, the office (through his commlink) reminds him that his cyberarm is not broadcasting and he needs to flip the 'wireless mode on' switch (or it turns on at 9am when Bob should be at his desk.. if he knows what's good for him).

Since datajacks are so cheap, it also wouldn't be much of an effort to replace the wireless broadcast component with a datajack. So instead of you having the obvious security hole which also allows you functionality that didn't exist in previous models, you can have wired access to those functions. And I think I'd give you a free perception check if someone tried to surreptitiously jack into your cyberarm. "Some guy just rolled up your sleeve, by the way. And he's trying to take the dustcover off your arm's datajack with one hand while holding a datacable in his other hand. Just fyi!"

I guess my question is this, though. If Bob the Wageslave has a cyberarm as his only real cyberware, what good would hacking it do? You could use it to store data, maybe have it release a program or virus.. but it's not a commlink, it has no sensors (beyond touch) so even if you did hack it and turn it into your storage device from whence to launch a VR offensive once he's in the building... how could you know when he's in the right location to start the mayhem? Either you'd have to hack the building to ensure he's where you need him (operating on the whole 'isolated wireless matrix office concept') or physically mod his cyberarm to be a near-drone which also screws you over since to actually do anything useful with his cyberarm (besides making him punch himself, goose pretty girls, etc) you'd need to do far more work than just hacking it. It's easier to hack his commlink if your average wageslave is going to subscribe his arm, since the important info is (usually) in the commlink. I just don't see major corporations letting something like storing valuable data on a wirelessly accessible device or cyberimplant get out of hand.

Where hacking a limb/device seems more useful is in the middle of combat, where a hacker can hit AR and tell the newbie street Samurai to shoot his friend, his assualt rifle to drop the clip, etc. But it's just logical to assume that the majority of cyberware/devices that are easy to hack... are worthless to hack. Commlinks are the exception, obviously. Since devices have a near-unlimited storage capacity, it'd be a very clueless individual who stored any critical data on their least secure device. Remember, the computer is still 'new' to a large percentage of our population, but by 2070 you'd hope that basic matrix security is as common knowledge as locking a door is now.

I think you could have some fun with Wageslave Bob in having his cyberarm host your illegal program selling scheme, but other than that, I really don't see any use for hacking exposed cyberware other than entertainment value "I turned his legs off... again!! AHAHAHAHA!!!".
Ravor
Well Sterling I think I mostly agree with your points with a few exceptions, but the main point that I'm trying to get across is that the same tricks and tactics that a Decker can use against a Street Sammy in combat (Which is something that I don't really agree with in the first place, but that is neither here or now.), a Script Kiddie can and will use against Joe Wageslave just for fun so I figure that the corps would have plugged this rather gaping security hole after the first generation of wireless cyber opened the door to Deckers and Script Kiddies 'pawning' people with cyberimplants.


Plus I agree with you, in 2070 the majority of people should have already grasped the basics of network security, especially when not doing so could result in being strangled by your own cyberarm, the difference is that I disagree that RAW properly reflects this in turning Fourth Edition into a Decker's Eden where Street Sammys can either become 'Decker Lites' themselves or be forced to shoot themselves in the face the first time they come across a real Decker.
Kerris
I have to disagree that the majority of people should have grasped the basics of network security. Perhaps the majority people should have grasped the basics of computer use, but not network security.

I know what you're thinking: The majority of people have grasped the basics of computer use today.

This is simply not so. I've worked phone tech support, and the number of people that don't know how to right-click is astounding. And seriously, literacy rates need to get better before proficient computer use is as widespread as we often believe it to be. There were several times when I had somebody on the other end of the line reading an error message to me, and when that person encountered a word he didn't know, would replace it with the word "something". Except it was more "su'em".

A prerequisite to effective computer use is literacy. I believe this to be true.
hobgoblin
but ineffective computer use only needs a talkative interface wink.gif
Adarael
Question for Synner or others that have access to Emergence...

[ Spoiler ]
bibliophile20
QUOTE (Adarael)
Question for Synner or others that have access to Emergence...

[ Spoiler ]

Yup--and, unless someone managed to get to him in time to resuscitate, he's toast, and good riddance.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (bibliophile20)
Yup--and, unless someone managed to get to him in time to resuscitate, he's toast, and good riddance.

And in case any of this is true at all...
Adarael
So long as the old guy got hisself iced in a truly horrible fashion, I will be happy.
Rotbart van Dainig
Well, the point is: WYSMNBWYG.
Sterling
QUOTE (Kerris)
I have to disagree that the majority of people should have grasped the basics of network security. Perhaps the majority people should have grasped the basics of computer use, but not network security.

I know what you're thinking: The majority of people have grasped the basics of computer use today.

This is simply not so. I've worked phone tech support, and the number of people that don't know how to right-click is astounding. And seriously, literacy rates need to get better before proficient computer use is as widespread as we often believe it to be. There were several times when I had somebody on the other end of the line reading an error message to me, and when that person encountered a word he didn't know, would replace it with the word "something". Except it was more "su'em".

A prerequisite to effective computer use is literacy. I believe this to be true.

I've worked for a small ISP and provided phone support as well. Lucky for me, the userlist was small and local so in worst cases (and yes, I've taught people to right-click and click and drag too) I'd just go to their house.

But the premise still stands. People today (counting the worldwide population) are not computer savvy. But in 60+ years, that should change. And pure literacy wouldn't be needed, since they've shifted society towards an icon-based literacy. Look at your cell phone right now. If you can, shift the language to something totally different, and notice the icons remain the same... you could probably hand your phone to a friend and have them use it, even if they hadn't used it before and didn't speak the language.. because the icons are pretty universal.

And remember, turning off the wireless functionality of your cyberware/other device is a simple command. If someone can use a commlink (and by RAW everyone does) then someone can easily tell a device to turn off wireless functionality. They don't even mention the ways it can be done, so I'd guess you could do it by 'thinking' the command, definitely by commlink or possibly even by voice! It's re-enabling the wireless that needs the physical action.

I think that people are forgetting how easy blocked that security loophole is, but I also see people who forget to turn off their cell phones in theaters even after they're reminded about forty-five times.

Again, the prevalence of Wageslaves Bob and Jane wandering around oblivious to the fact their 'ware and devices are script kiddie bait is up to the GM. I'd say that it was pretty rare, as the corp security wouldn't let it continue if they all wanted to keep their jobs. But your mileage may vary. In my mind, turning off wireless functionality is something the runners learn to do religiously, like learning to use a white noise generator in SR1+ whenever you wanted to ensure privacy.
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Adarael)
Question for Synner or others that have access to Emergence...

[ Spoiler ]

[ Spoiler ]
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