Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Combat Realism
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2, 3
Lazarus
I was reading on the SR3R thread and a lot of it is focused on making the game easier to understand which I think is awesome.

However one of the things that has always bugged me about SR is that combat is not very realistic. In fact I hate absolutely despise the initiative system in SR3. I hate combat phases where the slow people get to act before the fast person gets to act again. I'm sorry but if you've seen a real fight a master will go many times before a novice even has a chance to react.

Here's what I looking for in the way of suggestions.

1. What ways do you think combat, both melee and ranged, can be improved?

2. Same as with the Initiative system.

3. What about a better damage system? Or a hit location?

4. Anything else that you think needs to be addressed.

Thanks for your time in advance.
Critias
One easy fix (that you specifically mention) would be to knock Initiative back to the old days -- where you go in order, period. If Quick Quigley rolls a 31 for Initiative, and Slow Samantha rolls a 9?

31 - Quigley
21 - Quigley
11 - Quigley
9 - Samantha
1 - Quigley

Would be the order of combat. It's a simple fix, that doesn't change any stats innately... but be prepared for grouching from the soon-to-be-dead slow guys. It's more "realistic" if you really want your chipped to the max guys to feel like they're chipped to the max... but it makes reaction/initiative enhancements that much more important.

Other than that, my only big gripes with combat are the power/damage of handguns compared to long guns (except shotguns), and the number of skills required to really be good in a fight (Skill Groups are one of the few things I very much like in SR4). It's all out of wack.
Link
Lazarus, you should join the relevant SR3R thread, many of your questions have been asked and few of them answered smile.gif
Critias' suggestion for initiative was one of those brought up for instance along with a system to spread actions evenly through the round so that 1 action wonders would act in the middle of the faster character's actions.
Stumps
1. Initiative: Critias pretty much hit it on the head. Just use SR2 initiative. It does exactly what you want.

2. Melee: "Realism"...well, tbh, the ONLY realisitic approach to melee in a gun fight, considering the speed, would be for the brawler to remove guns from being part of the fight. As long as guns are in play, anyone trying to throw punches is at a serious disadvantage realistically.
Even a master is quickly humbled by a common street thug that is 10 to 20 yards away.

If you are seriously looking for realism, then you would reduce melee into blow by blow motion in relation to the seconds of each round of combat. Truly, how many melee accomplishments can be done in a few seconds vs. how many pulls of a trigger?

Consider that, and it becomes readily apparent that if you really want realistic melee, you are essentially asking for a system that screws melee combatants most of the time.

Disarming, under this type of system, becomes the best tool for melee combatants; that, or flash grenades.

3) Damage system: Don't know what you would rather see here.

4) Hit location: Better jump in on the SR3 revamp or run a search through the forums. This one isn't that simple.
Making hit location systems in SR means resetting the values for armor and damage for weapons, as they are presently set for the vague clustering rule style of SR combat. Just simply using a hit location system alone would over power some aspects and greatly under power others.
nezumi
Alternatively, consider just getting CP2020. The system seems a little more complex, but it has a lot of what you're talking about. Melee combat really can't compare to assault rifles, there are hit locations, etc. There aren't extra actions like you get in SR, it's more like the d20 initiative style, but that can be fixed easily enough.
Critias
Extra actions are possible in CP:2020, you just take a to-hit penalty for every additional attack you attempt to take. And, with a high enough skill in a martial art, melee combat can get pretty ridiculously deadly (less base dice, but more reliable damage thanks to adding your m. art skill to the damage roll).

But, yes. My nitpicking nature aside, CP:2020 does have an overall more realistic set of combat rules than SR. Weapons have calibers and reliability ratings, every incoming attack has a hit location, body armor covers certain body parts (and not others), you name it. S'good stuff.
Snow_Fox
we did what critas suggested- used the old system, otherwise it starts to boog down. the 1st ed combat rules were a nightmare
Wounded Ronin
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do a search for "Combat Realism". There have been a lot of excellent discussions that people really poured their hearts into. I remember that I wrote up an entire alternate melee combat system. It's a disservice for someone who is interested in simulationism/realism not to look at the past discussions that took place on DSF.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Stumps)

2. Melee: "Realism"...well, tbh, the ONLY realisitic approach to melee in a gun fight, considering the speed, would be for the brawler to remove guns from being part of the fight. As long as guns are in play, anyone trying to throw punches is at a serious disadvantage realistically.
Even a master is quickly humbled by a common street thug that is 10 to 20 yards away.

If you are seriously looking for realism, then you would reduce melee into blow by blow motion in relation to the seconds of each round of combat. Truly, how many melee accomplishments can be done in a few seconds vs. how many pulls of a trigger?

Consider that, and it becomes readily apparent that if you really want realistic melee, you are essentially asking for a system that screws melee combatants most of the time.

This is how I'd look at it. The role of melee combat wouldn't be so that you could enjoy great success running up and punching the man who is covering you with a shotgun. The role of melee combat would be doing well for your size in a brawl or in a low-threat self-defense situation on the street, just like it would be in real life. The other major role of melee combat would be stealth; silent knife kills, sentry removal, and neck breakers. That has its place in a game about elite mercenaries sulking around corporate facilities.
Lazarus
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do a search for "Combat Realism".

Dude you don't have to shout. I'll do it.

biggrin.gif
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Lazarus)
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Jun 30 2007, 08:19 PM)
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do a search for "Combat Realism".

Dude you don't have to shout. I'll do it.

biggrin.gif

You have to imagine my last post being filled with so much emotion that cherry blossoms start falling in memory of the impermanence of worthy threads being on the front forum page.
Angelone
One thing that really annoys me about movies and shows is how guy A will have guy B at gunpoint and walk right the hell up to him, within grappling distance. While yes, it is a natural reaction to get closer as someone is backing up. Stop and think, you have a ranged weapon, if anyone should be backing the hell up it should be you. It reduces the chances of you being pistol whipped into submission with your own weapon. It is very very hard to shoot someone who is punching you in the face not to mention someone who is grappling you.

EDIT- And what's with all the dialog shoot him already, twice, in the face. Or the back if it's an easier target.
hyzmarca
I remember an episode of Renegade (starring Lorenzo Lamas as Reno Raines, who was a cop and good at his job; but he committed the ultimate sin and testified against other cops, gone bad; cops who tried to kill him but got the woman he loved instead; framed for murder, now he prowls the bad lands; An outlaw hunting outlaws, a bounty hunter; a Renegade), in which Reno was teaching the endangered beautiful love interest of the week how to defend herself against gun-wielding assailants by slowly walking up to them and crescent-kicking the guns out of their hands, instead of backing away as most people tend to do.

That was funny. Reno always kicked the guns out of people's hands. Almost every episode, someone pulled a gun on him and he kicked the gun out of the bad guy's hand before beating the crap out of him.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Angelone)
One thing that really annoys me about movies and shows is how guy A will have guy B at gunpoint and walk right the hell up to him, within grappling distance. While yes, it is a natural reaction to get closer as someone is backing up. Stop and think, you have a ranged weapon, if anyone should be backing the hell up it should be you. It reduces the chances of you being pistol whipped into submission with your own weapon. It is very very hard to shoot someone who is punching you in the face not to mention someone who is grappling you.

EDIT- And what's with all the dialog shoot him already, twice, in the face. Or the back if it's an easier target.

Well, it's like how in horror movies everyone does stupid things which makes it easier for the serial killer to get them.
Glyph
I think one of the biggest gripes about SR3's melee combat system being an opposed dice contest is that if you have lower skill and wired reflexes: 3, all your speed does is get you beat up three times faster.

The obvious fix is to say that defending in melee combat always uses the full defense rules. You might add counterattack as an option, with the caveat that it costs the defender his or her next action.

The trouble with that "fix", though, is that it makes melee specialists less effective (which is only a problem if you have a problem with that).
Critias
You could also just make counterattacking add to the TN (instead of costing an action). So that the really good guys (and those Adepts with Centering) could still hand your ass to you while defending -- but for the most part initiative would matter a little more.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Glyph)
I think one of the biggest gripes about SR3's melee combat system being an opposed dice contest is that if you have lower skill and wired reflexes: 3, all your speed does is get you beat up three times faster.

And make you win ties more often, which is not insignificant.

~J
Link
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Renegade (starring Lorenzo Lamas et al.

If you recalled that from memory, good job.

Another method for counter attacks against fast opposition that avoids TN modifiers is to reinvent the defence pool from SR1.
The pool is equal to your relevant melee skill (perhaps including any parrying dice such as from DK or FaG's) and refreshes every action.
When counter attacking you use the defence pool which means 2 characters of equal speed will have their pool refreshed every action, similar to SR3.
If a wired foe attacks the slower character would have to choose whether to split their dice between attacks or counter attack once at full force and then try to rely on dodging to evade subsequent attacks.
mfb
one idea for ranged combat realism is to include a flat distance penalty in addition to the range category penalty--something like +1 TN per 100m or 200m. there would not be any method to counteract the distance penalty. this would reflect the fact that, even with a scope, longer distances are harder. slapping a badass scope on a sniper rifle should not make a 1km shot TN 4.
Kagetenshi
But it's so badass!

Especially when you don't aim!

~J
Stumps
Or you could seriously just take all melee and translate it to blow-by-blow moves.


Here's some logic for you.

In SR, every pull of a trigger is dissected into each pull of the trigger over the span of just a few seconds; meanwhile, in the same fraction of seconds that it takes another character to squeeze off only 2 pulls of a semi-automatic firearm an entire volley of hand-to-hand combat brawling is completed.

Baseball bat; 1.
Firearm; 0.
mfb
oh, yeah. it'd also be a good idea to allow semi-auto weapons to fire 'bursts' as a complex action, where you basically just tap the trigger as fast as you can. i'd make them less accurate than a regular burst (autofire/burst recoil penalties are also in need of major revision), and cap the number of rounds at, say, Qui.
Kagetenshi
If you've got ideas, I've got a thread for them!

~J
mfb
i think i posted all those ideas there. if not, i meant to!
Critias
I've long pondered a "you only benefit from scopes if you take an Aim Action" house rule. As it is, it's been a geas on a sniper-adept of mine, instead of a concrete rule for everyone (well, "you only get your hojillion extra Rifles dice if you Aim," rather).

It just seems silly to me how quickly you can snap off shots with giant sniper rifles, sometimes. At least their damage code is appropriately more potent than a handgun, though.
Kagetenshi
I don't see anything on recoil penalties. I think the SA-burst idea was brought up, but no actual mechanics were proposed that I can see skimming it.

~J
mfb
in general, autofire/bursts should increase or at least not decrease your chance to hit a target. you can use the somewhat overly-complex house rules we came up with at Shadowland (they're complex enough that i don't remember actually ever seeing them used, so i guess that counts as a no-go).
Angelone
QUOTE (mfb)
one idea for ranged combat realism is to include a flat distance penalty in addition to the range category penalty--something like +1 TN per 100m or 200m. there would not be any method to counteract the distance penalty. this would reflect the fact that, even with a scope, longer distances are harder. slapping a badass scope on a sniper rifle should not make a 1km shot TN 4.

IIRC, there are different tns for different ranges. TN 4 for short, 5 for medium, 6 for long, and 9 for extreme. It might be houserules though, been using it for so long I don't remember.
Critias
Right, but MFB's proposing an additional range penalty in addition to the usual "medium, long, extreme" stuff -- regardless of weapon used, just a flat "100m" mark, to represent bullet drop, wind, and a half dozen other things that don't care what range bracket you happen to be in (or whether it's an assault, sport, or sniper rifle that happens to be doing the shooting).
Kagetenshi
There are, but a rating 3 scope makes them all 4.

Edit: you're thinking that it's meant to stack? I thought he was proposing a flat replacement.

Edit^2: ok, stacking makes a lot more sense when I think about applying this to pistols and shotguns rather than sporting and sniper rifles.

~J
Critias
QUOTE
one idea for ranged combat realism is to include a flat distance penalty in addition to the range category penalty

?

Seems to be what he was saying, yeah.

EDIT -- and how far will it come up for shotguns and pistols, really? Or even subguns, for that matter? I remember being frustrated IC a few times because the ranges on my guns were so low (the extreme range, mind you).

*grabs his book* Yeah. If it's set at 100, it will only ever bother SMG, Sporting, Sniper, and Assault Rifle users, and up into the heavy weapons. The extreme range for everything else is below (or in shotgun's case, at) that 100 meter mark so this proposed additional flat TN penalty is a moot point.

If set at 200, you can knock the SMG's off the list.

I don't see it coming up real often in your average SR game, to be honest.
Kagetenshi
Quiet, you!

~J
Angelone
Reading comprehension > Me. It's early yet, and I'm recovering from a long weekend, my location isn't lying atm.

EDIT- You also can't put scopes on everything. So they aren't the end all be all.
Critias
S'all good. Truth be told, I partially just knew what the weird little bastard was talking about in the first place (because we'd chatted about this sort of thing before).
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Critias)
EDIT -- and how far will it come up for shotguns and pistols, really? Or even subguns, for that matter? I remember being frustrated IC a few times because the ranges on my guns were so low (the extreme range, mind you).

Oh, it wouldn't. Thing is, I was thinking a sniper rifle at 900 meters, and thinking "the TN's already 9, does it really need to be 17? 13's more reasonable."

Then I realized that if I just flat-replaced it, most commonly-used weapons would only have one range. That's when it clicked.

~J
Critias
Think of it instead as a "sucks to be shooting from that far away, cool guy" sort of modifier, tacked on AFTER the normal "TN 9, but hah hah I dropped it to a 4, Mr. GM, with my snazzy scope" stuff gets all added up.

Because scopes are nice and all, and even if you tell yourself there's some fancy-schmancy gyroscope-linked-to-a-range-finder thingamajigger built into every single one of them in Shadowrun (to explain why they don't need to be centered), well, shit happens at long range (the aforementioned bullet drop, tumbling, windage, and simply the time it takes a bullet to travel a great distance). So this hypothetical +1 or +2 TN of MFB's is just there to make sure difficult long-ranged shots are, well, difficult long-ranged shots.

You can use a scope to shrug off completely the first 5 points (that jump from short range to extreme, and the ensuing shift in base TN), but since that's a little silly this is just a little something extra to make the would-be snipers maybe not get a snapshot one-shot-one-kill (and encourage a few Aim actions from time to time).
Angelone
Doesn't a smartlink take the things you mentioned into effect (well maybe not wind)? I remember the SL2 w/rangefinder combo is very helpful for long distance shooting -1 @ long and -2 @ extreme, so I have to believe bullet drop and such is compensated for. It's a good idea but it doesn't really work.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (mfb)
one idea for ranged combat realism is to include a flat distance penalty in addition to the range category penalty--something like +1 TN per 100m or 200m. there would not be any method to counteract the distance penalty. this would reflect the fact that, even with a scope, longer distances are harder. slapping a badass scope on a sniper rifle should not make a 1km shot TN 4.

Well, that's just because the original SR designers apparently didn't differentiate between pointing the gun really precisely at the target and needing to aim off target for really long shots. The scopes behave as if the only thing you need to do for the 1km shot is have the rifle pointed unerringly directly at the target. So what we really need to do is have more complicated firearms system where each firearm has a ballistic profile and we differentiate between when you can just aim at the target and when you need to compensate and aim off-target. And then we need match grade ammo, and adjustable scopes....
Critias
QUOTE (Angelone)
Doesn't a smartlink take the things you mentioned into effect (well maybe not wind)? I remember the SL2 w/rangefinder combo is very helpful for long distance shooting -1 @ long and -2 @ extreme, so I have to believe bullet drop and such is compensated for. It's a good idea but it doesn't really work.

Yes, but you can't use a smartlink with an imaging modifier (like a scope, or cyberoptics that mimic the effects of a scope).
Angelone
Really? That's odd, I honestly thought that's what the cybereye vision magnifiers were for. That makes them fairly pointless then doesn't it. It baffles the mind.
Critias
Yup. SR3, p. 280, "Imaging scopes may not be used with smartlink systems." SR3, p. 300 "This enhancement magnifies the visual image in the same manner as an imagine scope" (emphasis mine).

It's a not-unreasonable house rule to say that the cyberoptics don't come with the same penalty as the physical scopes, but if you do so keep in mind just how easy you're making most long ranged shots (especially those made with the above combo you mentioned, including the range finder and the SL II).
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Angelone)
Really? That's odd, I honestly thought that's what the cybereye vision magnifiers were for. That makes them fairly pointless then doesn't it. It baffles the mind.

Nope. That's a pretty basic part of the rules-balance. Scopes are powerful AND smartlink is powerful, but you can't have both. You have to choose whether you want to be good at close range or at long range.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Angelone)
Really? That's odd, I honestly thought that's what the cybereye vision magnifiers were for. That makes them fairly pointless then doesn't it.

Well, the cybereye version works with every weapon you have or pick off of someone's body and doesn't reduce Concealability at all. That's worth something.

~J
Link
The base range TN (i.e. 4, 5, 6 & 9) seems a better model for weapon ballistics including barrel length, ammo grade etc. then for the ability to precisely aim at a distant target.
e.g. an SMG is TN9 at 81m while an assault rifle is TN9 at 351m. However, looking through the iron sights of the SMG or AR at a target 100m away would give much the same view.
A better model might have scopes affect the vision modifier rather than ballistic TN.
Here's the vision modifier chart (adapted from the Grimoire) I use for sorcery but maybe useful here.
[ Spoiler ]

As for the flight time, all SR weapons will reach their maximum range in a about a second or less (according to Raygun's data) while wind would affect the ballistic rather than visual TN. Perfect conditions might drop extreme range to 8 while a strong crosswind makes it 11. Aiming represents a shooter compensating for this.


Stumps
QUOTE (mfb)
in general, autofire/bursts should increase or at least not decrease your chance to hit a target. you can use the somewhat overly-complex house rules we came up with at Shadowland (they're complex enough that i don't remember actually ever seeing them used, so i guess that counts as a no-go).

Your house rules for auto-fire are basically Ed 1 rules with some tweaking, and yeah, SR more or less seemed to think that round-by-round was tedious, understandably.

Now, here's an alternative spin on what you guys were writing in there....I have no idea if this actually works as I more or less just spit this off of the top of my head and I haven't cracked open an SR core in a while, so forgive any loss of memory on the finite inner twinings that this concept is neglecting to check for balance.

Even with that said, I believe the concept of the idea is still able to be represented in the crudeness of it's presentation.
Oh, and I didn't bother writing this as if it were a rule book. I just wrote it direct and to the point.

Check the spoiler for the alternative.

[ Spoiler ]


If this is utter dribble...I apologize in advance. wink.gif
Angelone
One thing that it seems we've forgotten, which I just thought about, was the other modifiers (SR3 pg. 112). Such as cover, lighting, movement, and impaired visibility. IRL I have never shot in perfect conditions, and admittly all my experience is at a target range. Shadowrunners otoh, get into firefights in some pretty let's say challenging conditions, near darkness, people running around, taking cover, smoke or flash grenades going off, etc. Those modifiers in my mind make things fairly challenging.
Stumps
I wasn't under the impression that anyone had forgotten about those modifiers, but was rather addressing the base mechanics before those are stacked.

...personally...SR has too many modifiers.
Angelone
*shrugs* They weren't mentioned, that I saw, and as I said I had forgotten about them until basically that moment.

It makes no sense to complain about the base mechanics before mods. are stacked. Basically in whatever situation you are in one of those mods. are applicable. Unless of course you are executing a point blank target in a well lit room. If you ramp up the base without taking the mods. into consideration noones going to hit a thing.
Critias
Except that the vast majority of those modifiers can be sidestepped by various widgets, cyber mods, and other pieces of gear. I've run a street sammy up from 0 karma to the mid-200's. It was very, very, rare for his TNs to be higher than 5, after all was said in done, in all that time. I can honestly say he missed -- clean missed -- with one shot, ever, in all the time I ran him. Most of my characters tend to be shooters of one variety or another, be it magic or mundane (hell, even my mages end up with a 5/7 for assault rifles/their favorite), so I kind of know what I'm talking about here. TN mods can be chipped away at, and shots made pretty simple, more often than not.

Take a look at the lighting conditions table, for instance, and watch how those horrible TN mods just melt away against "low-light with eyelight," combined with thermo for those rare few cases you're in complete darkness. Tack on a -2 for a smartlink and occasionally a -1 for aiming, and don't ever forget Centering (for those gunbunny Adepts)...and TNs can be pretty low, pretty consistently. Remember the ability to augment a critical roll with combat pool, and frankly I'm surprised when a character misses.

Especially in a thread called "combat realism," Shadowrun characters hit way, way, too often. Look at the number of shots fired by soldiers or cops, versus the number of hits, sometimes. Now compare that to the number of shots fired, versus the number of hits, in your average Shadowrun game.
nezumi
The thing you're forgetting is after 60 years of improvements, runners SHOULD hit far more often. While cops hit somewhere between 1/6 to 4/6 of the time within 25 feet during a combat situation, they don't have smartlinks, vision modifiers, even basic things like laser sights (which I assume are a little different from the sights we have now).
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012