What the previous two said, but also more to the point...

Not everyone needs a cyberarm....unless these rules exist.
Then my cyberarm becomes like my arse. Needed.

But that's just adding baggage to the system without any real gain.

My point wasn't the smartlink.

My point was that the rules presented created a pointless sudden NEED for cyberarms where there wasn't one before.

This need would become as common AS smartlinks.

This is a useless rule creation.

Penalty + Negation of penalty by Object = that's right....everyone has the object and the penalty no longer is meaningful, but now everyone has cyberarms. woohoo!

i'm not sure that's quite accurate, as cyberlimbs are really expensive--2 essence for -1 TN is not much. i'm still not in favor of it, though, as i said.

It depends on how much you care about making the best character possible. I don't think I've made a smartlinked character in years. I've preferred the challenge of a guy who uses iron sights and thus gets crap successes compared to his buddies.

It doesn't matter. Fatigue is added, and -1TN is pretty massive in clusterflookes where every TNM counts.

It's just not needed. The only thing it does is add to the over complication of combat by adding another 2 modifiers; -1TN and +1TN.

It doesn't matter on the amount of money...it's just the simple fact of creating a rule that is circular in reasoning.

It's like raising taxes by 5% and offering a tax cut of 5% for owning a car.

Congrats, cars now sell well, but the 5% and 5% meant nothing except for anyone that just can't afford to have a car.

Ditto on this rule.


I'll make sure to invest in Cyberware in the shadowrun stock market.

depends on if fatigue only applies to firearm tests. if it's just stun damage tht racks up as the fight goes on, cyberlimbs are no longer the only counter.

I suppose my point is that I fail to see the reason to NEED to add this clutter of extra rules when the great many would simply do whatever is needed to negate or balance back out the penalty.

It's a novel idea, I agree, but under the concept of equal value in negative and positive...you would just see everyone pay up for the counterbalance to the negative because it didn't used to be there.

I don't see how you can spread this out wide enough that it doesn't become too hindering if you place in on stun level damage.

That's baseball bat and stun glove territory.

simple--something like 6L damage every 10 combat rounds, or every 5 minutes if the combat is less intense. all but the really tough guys are going to take some stun, but not enough to really put them out--just enough for a +1 or maybe a +2 if the fighting is extremely protracted.

I don't think anyone here disagrees that fatigue decreases shot accuracy significantly. That's why so many shooting tests require you run a distance first. Your breathing hard due to previous physical exertion or current conditions makes shooting very difficult.

I also don't think anyone would disagree that in the future, someone would try to make equipment, including cyberware, to mitigate this problem.

Thirdly, I don't think anyone would disagree that having the parts of your body responsible for holding the gun made partially or almost entirely out of non-breathing steel would contribute positively in reducing this problem.

So I don't see any real problem with WR's foundation for a rule. I think Stumps' complaint may be the assumption that a cyberlimb is the ONLY way to get this benefit. I don't think this would be the case.

A successful willpower or body test could probably reduce the 'fatigue' associated (as it does now). Some sort of external frame could eliminate the penalties as they apply to firing, and could also integrate with a smartlink system to function better than just shooting with meat would. Some sort of breathing equalizer and frames in the major joints could help. There are plenty of alternative solutions which would be designed directly to mitigate the problem at hand. It just so happens, cyberlimbs happen to be ONE of them.

Honestly, considering how useless cyberlimbs are right now by the rules, any serious contribution they make towards making the character not suck would be a good change in my book. No one ever gets cyberlimbs except if they want to carry a lot of internal cyberdecks and stuff, in which case they'd do better just to get a cyberleg sticking out their back or something which just servers as a cyber backpack. Making cyberlimb shooting arms confer benefits makes sense, is cool, and runs no risk of becoming nearly as common as smartlinks (due to their still tremendously inflated price).

I would find it probable and valid IF you could achieve the same effect by taking a Skill for combat rediness/stress management and physical fitness.

But that at some point a max rating is achieved where it is mute to stack natural conditionaing (like the above explained) and modified alterations to the body for overdosed benefit beyond the negatives possible from fatigue.

i don't like it because of the way it works. it's as useful in a sudden, one-pass quickdraw contest as it is in an hour-long firefight.

I imagine if you have some skill like 'physical fitness' or 'yoga', it would not stack with 'having a cybertorso' in regards to the ability to reduce muscle ache from prolonged shooting. Just having the torso would count. But like I said, I would see no reason why it couldn't be reduced through other methods including skills or physical abilities.

Of course, you would have to also count for drugs in this concept as well, in both directions.

It's not like you would really have great fatigue ability on opiates.
And then there's PCP on the other end of the stick.

The other end of what stick? I'm pretty tired right now, but I'm pretty sure we're talking two basic categories of dissociatives.

~J

PCP and the like tend to rush the adrenaline where as opiates tend to dampen adrenaline sending.

I'd say a quick fix would just to let people add Athletics to the soak roll versus the "fatigue" stun, or something like that. It's the closest thing there is to a "being in shape" skill (as someone put it).

I agree that athletics and/or body should be responsible for resisting fatigue. On the other hand, I think willpower would be more appropriate for overcoming the natural movements of the body (like breathing).

I don't know, controlling your brething seems an integral part of the shooting skill, and 'controlling' heavier breathing should probably be represented by an increase in TN, rather than a seperate willpower test.

Also, and I've only quickly skimmed the thread, so forgive me if this was already mentioned and I missed it, but if you're going to start introducing rules for stun damage as a result of combat fatigue from physical exertion, you should also introduce stun damage from overpressure, especially in close quarters combat, and that's going to be vary from combat to combat. Then you need to add nomex body suits, respirators, eye and hearing protection to the list of essential equipment for anyone who will be getting into fire fights on a regular basis.

i'm not sure. i mean, i can see someone fighting until they collapse from exhaustion; i can't see someone firing a gun until the overpressure bruises them into unconsciousness. i'd just roll that up into the general fatigue thing.

Just wondering...has anyone ever encountered the absence of endurance in SR as a problem in their runs?

sorta. the problem is that fights in SR generally take place in 3-6 seconds, which isn't nearly enough time to start feeling tuckered.

and while a lack of fatigue isn't necessarily a problem for game balance, it is a problem if you're talking about realism. i was in a run once where we were basically running and fighting just about continuously for like 2-3 days. fatigue rules would have been nice... though we'd have probably died.

huh...we've always just used common sense for rules like this.

"+X TN" for being crapped out from exhaustion.

This would be applied where you would expect it to through common sense.

There weren't preventive measures for such an event. Your attributes and gear simply aided as they do normally for reaching the TN presented.

An interesting thing is the high tech option everybody, myself included, has thrown out for fixing things in realistic combat. Ironically in RL I've always been weary of high tech toys replacing good low tech options. For instance a GPS is nice but if you can't read a map or use a compass then you're SOL when the GPS is shot all to hell.

This reminds me of an article I read about soldiers in Iraq using Crazy String to detect trip wires.

Concerning Smartlinks have any of you GMs out there ever gave your players a situation where they didn't work? Just think about all the wonderful problems that could come from them. Little ones: The connection to your weapon and hand is bad. The gun's electronic sights are out of whack and cause your shots to be off. Your character gets hit in the head and the smartlink gear is messed up. The ware in the gun can't read the ware in your head. Big One: Getting shot in the hand.

I'm just thinking along those lines smartlinks are great but they can't beat good old practice, training, and experience. Now how do you translate that into game terms? It's seems simple: higher ability scores. Then if that is the case shouldn't that compensate for the nervousness unless you're talking about someone whose is good target shooter vs. a real world shooter?

God I think I create more questions then answers.

Well, the problem you run into when you assume the combat skills actually relate to your ability to use those skills in combat, then almost everyone you met would have really low firearms skills. Your average African militiaman would have a zero, your average cop would have a 1, your average solider would have a 2, and so on. The other problem here is that being the right kind of psycho immediately gives you a massive boost in combat skills because you don't suffer from most of the physiological effects of combat. Does this mean that being the right kind of crazy gives you +1 to your gun skill?

In addition, how then do you reflect the advantages of attacking from ambush (where your first shots are hopefully unstressed)?

Perhaps the ambush situation could be well represented through a comprehensive and robust set of rules which represent the effect of suppressive fire. Being shot at, even a little bit, could register some effects on the low end of the suppressive fire rule section, and then we'd have chaotic even combat versus ambush.