Can someone get an activesoft for a skill they have incompetence in?

Sorry no page numbers, but my thoughts are that the active soft completely overrides the character's natural skill (or lack thereof). That's why you can't use Edge or take specializations in the active soft. Therefore even if the user is incompetent (with a capital I), the active soft works just fine. In fact, I would say that a user who has relied on active softs for a very long time will find their skills atrophying. That would explain why a starting character would have a 7 Charisma and still be incompetent in several social skills: he acquired the skillwires at such a young age that he never developed social skills on his own.

Thats kinda what I figured. I couldn't see any rules that would suggest otherwise so I figured I'd ask.

...great, a whole new path to munchkinisim...

Conceivably a character could have a DP of 10 or more in the skills she is incompetent in and get the BP bonus for the quality to boot. That is very broken.

I would rule against it.

Negative qualities are just that, negative qualities.

As a powergamer, I would say it isn't broken at all. You can never be a super-face because you can't raise your skillwires above 4 or specialize.

Yeah, you'd be the living embodiment of the old saying, "Jack of all trades, and master of none."

Really, they'd essentially be a living Swiss Army Knife; a good multi-tool, but no match for a specialty tool, a good emergency screwdriver, but no match for a good Craftsman Phillipshead.

Munchkin players beget munchkin villains.

Was there any ruling about skill wires and things like reflex recorder or synthcardium? Both of those would still be available to someone who was incompetent and they would both work with the skill wires right.

I'd probably rule against it as well, for the same reason I don't let the awakened or technomancers take sensitive system. If the quality has no actual set-back to it, they shouldn't get the points.

If that doesn't quite work, you could have the character suffer from gremlins equal to the skillsoft rating when using it. Maybe there's no point of reference for the 'soft to work from, making him more prone to mistakes. Or perhaps the 'soft just isn't compatable.

The reason I've shot down sensitive system twice, is because the particular character isn't and won't ever be taking any cyberware, they were simply taking it for 15 free points. If they had at least a datajack I might have let it slide.

The players permanently closed off cyberware as an option the instant they selected to be a magician. Trust me, they see absolutely no benefit from giving up a point of magic for any cyber. The only way they'd have any is if it was forcefully installed.
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I must have missed the bit about flaws adding to notoriety when I read over Street Cred. It could easily be taken as laziness if you're using skillwires to cover skills others think you should have picked up.
I couldn't find anything about not using edge with skillwires in canon, but it makes a lot of sense. All the motions are computer generated, so there's no room for luck or flair.

I just guess I'm never going to see how preventing every mage running the shadows from having Sensitive System is silly. If it were something that came up once in a while I'd probably allow it. In fact I did allow it the first time, and decided to say no the second and third. When every mage is taking Sensitive System, it seems a bit off.

Gotta say, I agree 100% with Glyph and Toturi. Intelligently blending cyber & bioware is a great, great way to improve any character. Frankly, there isn't an archetype out there I'd willingly take sensitive system with. Period. If someone chooses to limit themselves that way, then they should get the points. I'd also like to point out that Awakened characters with sensitive system actually makes more than a fair bit of sense when you look at how cyber and mage have interacted in previous additions. Hell, if I were a GM, I'd consider making Sensitive system -mandatory- for Awakened characters, since cybered Awakened are some of the nastiest, most munchkiny fraggers out there.

I had much the same conversation the time my GM and I weighed the pros and cons of a Mage taking both Suppress Allergy and Severe Common Allergy: Soy. It's not enough to just add up the bp and immediately declare it overpowered. You have to consider that the mage still pays for the spell (of which he can only know a limited number of at creation) and takes a sustaining penalty as well as leaves his signature all over the place every time he comes within sniffing distance of a food court or hell, just a random trash can. In much the same way the incompetent guy with skillwires is limiting himself and then immediately blowing the points on a crutch anyway.

BTW, solkari, if your mages are all happily taking sensitive system, arrange for your runners to meet that good ol' hollywood action flick staple: The Poorly Lit Smoke, Sparks and Flame Factory. Nothing like ultrasound equipped guards, a rainy night and some smoke grenades to make a mage rue the day he passed up on cybereyes.

Having had player after player after player take flaws that they specifically intended to never suffer an actual negative consequence from (magician taking sensitive system for example and never planning or getting cyber), I tend to nix the attempt in most cases. If a player were to have a pretty good idea that the character would eventually actually have a flaw for having the flaw, I'd go for it, but free points for an intentionally designed and pigeon-holed character? Nope.

Well personally I have to agree, if all of your Mages never take any cyber then you need to start introducing them to the negative modifiers that could have easily been avoided with Cybereyes, ect...

The simple fact of the matter is that there are so many ways you can burn one point of Essense and get tons of goodies from that I can't see any smart players not choosing bits of cyber here and there.

Of course if you are looking for a better Houserule then I'd suggest something along the lines of making Trodes, glasses, ect not be the "magic-always-stay-in-place-no-matter-what" wonders they currently are.

In SR3, I would whole-heartedly agree with you (particularly comparing the bio index loss of muscle toner, etc, compared to the cost for an Adept to boost his stats magically) -- but it seems to be the case quite a bit less in SR4. Pretty much anything you could do with your eyes, you can do with goggles, glasses, or even contacts now. The difference between a few bonus dice and a -2 TN makes a huge difference between whether or not a built-in smartlink is really a necessity for a serious shooter or not (to clarify, I believe they were a fantastic deal in SR3, and aren't necessarily as important in SR4)...

They really seem to have balanced out the magic/cyber thing a little better, at least for Adepts at any rate (who were usually the ones contemplating a little Essence lost in exchange for a quick fix of cyber/bioware, in SR3). The biggest benefit most actual spellcasters would get would likely be the cyberoptics you mentioned -- and with the tech level bumped up enough you can just wear contacts instead, I don't see the allure (especially given the new importance of the Magic stat).

I'M NEVER WRONG!

...okay, okay. Maybe just this once. *shrugs* I stand (partially) corrected.

Id' allow Skillwires with Incompetence, for reasons outlined above.

Purchasing 2 Incompetences(say, Data Search, and Pilot Ground craft just for example), net 10 points.

Of course, you need to first purchase the skillwire system, which you pay for with resources(BP), and Essence.

Then, you need to purchase the softs(more Resources).

To purchase even level 3, 6 thousand nuyen is needed. For skillwires, since you can't use Edge, you may even want level 4(8,000 nuyen).

Ok, so you have your 4 skillwires for 8k nuyen(or 2BP).

Now, purchase the two said activesofts for 3,000x4 nuyen each, or 12k each, x2 again, is 24,000k. Grand total: 32,000k, or 7BP all told.

Netting you a whopping, huge, 3BP. Wow, so broken.

And the more incompetencies you take, the more Activesofts you have to buy at 3,000 nuyen a level.

If someone tried to admit to powergaming and did this, i'd sort of question their ability to powergame.

Now, on the other hand, i think this method could really make for a cool concept. A character who always fancied themself a hotshot driver or something, and could never get the hang of it, decides to ''buy'' his way in, just so he can still do it. And so on. It's really not so bad.

By the way, the Flaws having to be Flaws argument might have held water in previous editions, but in SR4, all you Flaws people can come kiss toturi's canon ass. Because there's nothing that says Negative Qualities having to be actually Negative.

ah, so speaking. This is how my character with flaw (incompetence - swimming) can 'learn' to swim, all she need is skillwires with swimming skill.

Now she must avoid water and maybe boats/ships too, because there is a real danger to fall off boat/ship to the water...

Unless the ocean in 2070 is a whole lot cleaner than I seem to think it is, I don't see why someone living in Seattle should be any more likely to know how to swim that someone living in Nevada.

edit: Hmm, let me add something useful to the thread:
I would allow pretty much all of these cases. If you're a mage and you're allergic to soy, of course you'd learn alleviate allergy. If you're incompetent at a certain skill, I think most people would compensate with skillwires if they could. I'm not seeing cases where someone takes a flaw and something else which completely eliminates 100% of the flaw 100% of the time without any other disadvantages/restriction/etc and still nets them positive BP. I see characters with flaws who invest additional BP into alleviates some of the flaw some of the time.
As for the mages taking sensitive system thing, I absolutely allow it. It removes options for the future, and removing an option is definitely a restriction.

...maybe not, but it makes more sense from a pragmatic standpoint.

I mean, if players are going to do their best to sidestep the penalties while maxxing out their characters, what's the point of having negative qualities/flaws. This way there's nothing more to argue about and it's all good.

The point is for the few instances that the problems occur.

...my point is if they rarely, if ever, affect the character adversely, then why even bother with them and instead just give the extra BPs to everyone?

Because when they hit, they should hit in a big way. It's the quality of the penalty, not the quantity, that makes a negative more fun for everyone.

...In an ideal situation, I agree.

However, if one can use spells, tech or whatever else to effectively negate it, then it ceases becoming a penalty. If it no longer affects the character adversely then they should not get the BPs or at least have the BP bonus reduced.

...agreed, most negative qualities shouldn't dog a character every other day (with maybe the exception of the biggies like Uncouth, Uneducated and Infirm). But bringing the risk down to say a "once a year" occurence really does not make it much of a flaw anymore. Anyone can have an bad day.

On the other hand, positive qualities seem to have a more regular impact on the game. Why shouldn't negative ones as well?

I have no issue with players having to think about whether they really want to take that negative quality. No, I'm not going to make their life a living hell every waking moment if they do take it, but they should be aware that it will have a detrimental effect on the character somewhere along the line, for that is what it is supposed to do.

I guess the comment about this now being SR4 and not the previous editions has a bit to do with my vehemence regarding the issue. The world may have changed too much I fear.

...my final two Zlotys worth

...the more my back is turned looking down the SRIIIR path.

...you don't know what you got till it's gone...

They paved Paradise and put up a parking lot.

Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one who hates Dave Matthews. Anyway though, I never figured out why people get anal retentive about making dead certain that a player's rare or unlikely negative qualities come into play. If a GM applied the same mindset to a player's positive qualities and skills, then I'd love to take Artisan: Banjo just to see how he'd would shoehorn that one into the campaign.

...thank you. At least I try to disagree with a sense of decorum.

I don't. But I'm not disagreeing with anyone in this thread yet, so I can still hold the moral high ground since I've got no dog in the fight.

and they got 'lectrolytes!