Graht
Jul 10 2007, 05:13 PM
I started playing Shadowrun in 1990 (yeah, I'm old, get over it
).
In the beginning it was a shit hot game. 2nd Edition came out and it was still a shit hot game. And then it started losing it's appeal to me. 3rd Edition came out and Shadowrun kept losing it's appeal, and I couldn't figure out why. I thought it was just because I had been playing/GMing it for so long that I needed a change of pace and something different.
It's been over 5 years since I played or GMed Shadowrun and it just isn't luring me back, despite the fact that I really like the new rules and mechanics in 4th Edition.
I think I finally figured out why.
In the beginning the magic to tech ratio was pretty equal. Over the years a *lot* of tech has been added to the game: more guns, more cyberware, bioware, matrix technology, vehicles, drones, etc. But I don't think the same can't be said for magic. Sure a couple of magic sourcebooks came out but there weren't that many new spells or fetishes or anything to compare with the increase in available technology.
Am I right or am I completely off my rocker (figuratively speaking, I'm not that old
)?
eidolon
Jul 10 2007, 05:17 PM
I think you're right in terms of magic not increasing in saturation at the same level of tech. I don't mind it so much, personally, but I can see the issue.
Demerzel
Jul 10 2007, 05:18 PM
I thought it was funny when I saw two threads from you one entitled too much tech and one entitled too much magic... I was wondering if you were making two threads for both sides of the argument.
Here's why I think that's funny: Every few months a new version of an argument develops here on DS alternating between one of two topics. One month it will be, "Why is Magic so overpowered, Cyber should rule." The next it is, "Why is Cyber so overpowered, Magic should rule." Seems like this month the question is why is tech too powerful...
Whipstitch
Jul 10 2007, 05:31 PM
Your observation is partially true, but that doesn't mean you're still not off your rocker
. It's there for balance purposes. Awakened can already perform magic AND (in theory, if not always in practice) do everything a mundane can do, provided they're willing to pay for it, just like everyone else. Putting in new tech gives everyone options (even if it's not always the "best" option for the karma-strapped starting Mage) while putting in new powers and spells only enhances the Awakened. It's also worth noting that most tech (firearms in particular) are really just variations upon similar themes. Mages can can accomplish much the same thing by creating their own tailored spells and ally spirits, options which are simply unavailable to mundanes. One could certainly argue that tailoring your Alter Memory spell to affect entire groups has far more serious implications than, say, the ability to bump up the clip capacity of a Hammerli 620S (and oddly enough, rules for altering the pistol for anything but "stock" parts isn't in the RAW, but the rules for making AOE Alter Memory is).
sunnyside
Jul 10 2007, 05:34 PM
I don't think he's saying that tech is too powerful.
What he's saying is that in every edition there are piles of new tech toys, SR4 for example brought in all the comlink/RFID business. So tech, at least some aspects of it, are new and fresh edition to edition.
But maybe initiation and all that has been around since 1st. Personally though I feel that SR4 really did reinvent the adept. In previous editions they were a sammy replacement with a bit of focus on old skool weaponry.
Now they are certainly not. Boosting IPs and attributes is pretty brutal. Instead adepts are now more about all sorts of other things. The superperception adept, the social adept(which was, I think, just showing up in SR3 but not to half the degree it is in SR4), the hacker adept. And so on. They just have a very different feel. (Though the stealth adept is still around, nothing wrong with that). Even the combat adepts have a different feel than their earlier version counterparts.
Not so sure if I can really put my finger on something for the mage that really makes the shamantic experience in SR4 greatly different than SR2.
Kyoto Kid
Jul 10 2007, 05:40 PM
...there can never be too much tech IMO
There may have been less proliferation in magic, but I have no issue with that. The Mundane side still has a long way to go to be on par with what magic can already do.
...Searching for better ways counter the threat posed by spells, spirits, and astral beings through Advanced Technology...
Aeon Labs
Backgammon
Jul 10 2007, 05:42 PM
How exactly would you add more magic? Apart for spells, powers, and traditions, you can't really add more. And besides, now that I think about it, it's not at all true tech supplements outweight magic supplements. Target:Awakened Lands had tons of magic stuff, Target:Wastelands had tech and magic, SOTA:64 had tons of magic...
I think you're just completly wrong. There has been an effort from the developers to put out as much (or nearly) as tech. SR4 has of course very few supplements out (it could be pointed out the very first additionnal rule supplement out was Street Magic...), but take Runner Havens - Hong Kong is a very magic oriented city.
Considering Magic is supposed to be rare, I don't know what more you expect. Every supplement touches magic in some way or another.
Talia Invierno
Jul 10 2007, 05:42 PM
QUOTE (sunnyside) |
But maybe initiation and all that has been around since 1st. |
Since edition 1 of the Grimoire, where it was first introduced. SR2 updated the Grimoire, and then SR3 replaced it with Magic in the Shadows -- but the essential description of initiation hasn't changed. That's also how far back magical traditions were loosely described.
It's not until Awakenings (2nd, but just before the release of 3rd) that we found new magical possibilities (voudoun); and MitS immediately de-mystified it into just another way to do the same old, same old. Much the same thing happened with what Street Magic ended up doing with MitS's introduction of the wu jen.
Finally, in SotA, we really see the reinventing of the physad.
Street Magic pulled all of this together and blurred all the lines. All that's really new, here, is that there's no longer a rules-essential difference between hermetics and shaman (eg.). The overlap is far greater than the points of differences.
Whipstitch
Jul 10 2007, 05:55 PM
Yeah, I suppose if you look at it from an overarching survey of all editions, I can see how it would add up that way.
As far as adepts and their options go, if the adept really wants to, there's still nothing to stop him from netting IPs if he's willing to pay the price. And there's always tailored combat drugs. One of the nastiest characters I've seen yet was a friend's classic stealthy athletic Physad, tricked out with traceless walk, wallrunning, gliding, Synthacardium 3, Enhanced Articulation and Reflex Recorders for the Athletics and Stealth groups. He'd get hopped up on Jazz and ambush people with full bursts from a Steyr TMP loaded with stick and shock.... while sticking from the ceiling with his gecko tape kneepads. A hefty negative dice pool modifier applied, to be sure, but that doesn't amount to much when you're rolling unopposed at short range.
eidolon
Jul 10 2007, 06:27 PM
Outside the BBB:
First & Second Edition:
Tech
- Street Samurai Catalog
- Rigger Black Book
- Rigger 2
- Shadowtech
- Cybertechnology
- Fields of Fire
- Corporate Security Handbook
Magic
- The Grimoire
- Awakenings
- The Grimoire 2
Third Edition:
Tech
- Man & Machine
- Cannon Companion
- Matrix (IIRC, had new matrix related tech; if not, discount)
- Rigger 3
- State of the Art: 2063
- State of the Art: 2064
- Sprawl Survival Guide (although not typical "whoop more ass" tech)
Magic
- Magic in the Shadows
- Shadowrun Companion (has some new spells and powers; actually, the previous one may have as well, can't remember; if it did, add it to the above lists)
- State of the Art: 2063
- State of the Art: 2064
edited:
- Duplicated the SotA books for magic and tech
- Added Critters under Magic
edited:
- Took Critters back off the Magic list for SR3
Talia Invierno
Jul 10 2007, 06:43 PM
Fairly certain SRC1 does not -- I'd been focusing on magic at the time, and I remember it mostly for edges/flaws, new metatypes and shapeshifters, alternate builds, and contact elaboration -- but I'd been going entirely from memory, here.
Synner667
Jul 10 2007, 06:55 PM
Hi,
The feeling of something about SR unsettling me, has been around for years..
..For me, SR has lost it's way.
By which I mean that it was very much about magic being rare, a world being rebuilt, AmerIndian culture, global powergames, people.
Now, SR is not much to do with Cyberpunk as a genre - it's no longer leading the crowd, it's trailing behind and hoping to get lucky.
There's a bunch of Cyberpunk RPGs out there, and SR is not very different anymore.
Yes, I know SR has magic, but it's now degenerating to being another set of numbers - in effect, the magic has gone out of magic.
For me, it's not the gazillion different gadgets or programs or vehicles or even the spells that gave SR its spark - it was the background.
SR is descending into AD&D-ism, where the there are pages of gadgets, spells, vehicles, etc and those become more important than the characters in SR..
..Though, obviously, the only thing that matters in a Cyberpunk future IS the gear'n'style
I mentioned somewhere else that there are NO new SR scenarios [except the ones available from the SR website, from conventions, etc] and there is little background material being produced - in fact most of the material available [or was produced] is from SR1/SR2 !!
Yes, there are sourcebooks but so far we mainly have updated versions of old sourcebooks.
I can't foresee anything like BugCity, Denver, Tir Na Nog, Lone Star, etc being produced.
It's like the SR producers want to limit SR to a couple of cities and almost forget about all the stuff that's happened [Harlequin who ?? Astral Horrors ?? Immortal elves ?? etc].
Well, I've said my piece..
..And I'll be off to my 'classic' SR
Just my thruppence..
Backgammon
Jul 10 2007, 06:56 PM
QUOTE (eidolon) |
Third Edition: Tech - Man & Machine - Cannon Companion - Matrix (IIRC, had new matrix related tech; if not, discount) - Rigger 3 - State of the Art: 2063 - State of the Art: 2064 (these two might have had a miniscule amount of magic, can't remember; I know they have a bit of tech) - Sprawl Survival Guide (although not typical "whoop more ass" tech)
Magic - Magic in the Shadows - Shadowrun Companion (has some new spells and powers; actually, the previous one may have as well, can't remember; if it did, add it to the above lists) |
Your 3rd Ed list is really bad. I'll revise it if I get the time.
Graht
Jul 10 2007, 06:57 PM
QUOTE (Demerzel) |
I thought it was funny when I saw two threads from you one entitled too much tech and one entitled too much magic... I was wondering if you were making two threads for both sides of the argument.
Here's why I think that's funny: Every few months a new version of an argument develops here on DS alternating between one of two topics. One month it will be, "Why is Magic so overpowered, Cyber should rule." The next it is, "Why is Cyber so overpowered, Magic should rule." Seems like this month the question is why is tech too powerful... |
Yeah, well, when I was posting it the first time I realized I had the subject wrong and cancelled the post, changed the subject, reposted, and *then* realized I had posted twice with conflicting subjects. I had hoped I was able to delete the "Magic" post before anyone saw it (sheepish grin).
tisoz
Jul 10 2007, 06:59 PM
My observation is magic keeps getting toned down, while tech prices keep coming down.
Another observation is the better new magic items were introduced in obscure books. If something magical was in a more mainstream book, it was about worthless. I'm basing this from Channeling only appearing in T:AL, some halfway usable spells in T:WL, imps, charms, divination geomancy, etc. in the SotA books.
eidolon
Jul 10 2007, 07:04 PM
QUOTE (Backgammon) |
Your 3rd Ed list is really bad. I'll revise it if I get the time. |
Go for it. I'm looking at the Wikipedia "List of Shadowrun Books" and going off of memory.
Curious though: Bad in what way? If you can explain what you mean a bit better you might spark enough of my memory for me to fix it. (Don't know that explaining it would be any faster than you just fixing it, but it might.)
Talia Invierno
Jul 10 2007, 07:06 PM
I think you're right about the deliberate toning down of magic, tisoz. I'd set it down to an increased level of fan freelancing -- and (month in, month out notwithstanding) I'm able to find far more threads ranting about magic being too powerful than about magic not being powerful enough.
*laugh* Anyone else notice just how much free spirits have been undermined, in the current edition? Yes, they can have more powers: but they can't gain them without gaining karma -- and they can't gain karma without either giving up their true name or draining it from someone (if they have that power).
Ophis
Jul 10 2007, 07:07 PM
Synner667 I wonder at your lack of BG material, Runner Havens had plenty, as does Emergence by the looks of it. I'd love to see another Bug City, but it would require a lot of secrecy in development, and it would be nice to let the world settle a little, to get seemingly 'safe' and comfortable again.
As for scenarios try the SR Missions stuff (they're pretty cool) but actual ones in books never actually sell so they aren't worth producing.
FrankTrollman
Jul 10 2007, 07:09 PM
Actually I would have to say that every Critter book is a "magic" book as well. And all the SotA books had Magic tricks as well as tech tricks. Indeed, the magic updates were probably a bigger deal than the tech (since they included Unified Magic Theory and the like).
-Frank
tisoz
Jul 10 2007, 07:14 PM
QUOTE (Backgammon) |
How exactly would you add more magic? Apart for spells, powers, and traditions, you can't really add more. And besides, now that I think about it, it's not at all true tech supplements outweight magic supplements. Target:Awakened Lands had tons of magic stuff, Target:Wastelands had tech and magic, SOTA:64 had tons of magic... |
With the way spirits are now treated, ritual summoning should have been included in SM.
There is no problem with introducing new spells. I recall a couple semi-official ones from Shadowland that I liked. Disregard comes to mind.
tisoz
Jul 10 2007, 07:17 PM
QUOTE (Talia Invierno) |
*laugh* Anyone else notice just how much free spirits have been undermined, in the current edition? Yes, they can have more powers: but they can't gain them without gaining karma -- and they can't gain karma without either giving up their true name or draining it from someone (if they have that power). |
At least the binding only lasts for a few services, not until the binder dies or emancipates the spirit.
sunnyside
Jul 10 2007, 07:21 PM
I don't think it's so much that they don't include magic in the sourcebooks.
What it comes down to for me, is that if you took someone who was skilled as a mage and familiar with the sourcebooks back in maybe even 1st ed, and sat them down with a 50 karma modern mage they would probably just be able to play it. You'd just have to explain that they can ward, and can't attack foci and spells from the astral. Details are different but they probably recognize most of the spells, recognize the initiation, can guess what a power focus does etc. You'd just have to make sure they rolled the right die.
Doing the same with a typical phys ad player may well result in "I have social skills?" (or whatever the 4th ed adept is designed to do). Yes physads can still be played as sammie replacements but they don't do as well at it as they used to. The sammy can get IPs and stat boosts much easier. Adepts can do more with other stuff.
The rigger, after being calmed down and told that they can get more than an SMG on vehicles once arsenal comes out, will soon notice that they are also a passable hacker and (gasp!) don't have most of their essense tied up in a VCR. They can actually leave the car now!
A decker will have his world shattered and rebuilt into something better.
The sammy archetype is most impacted by the fact that that their initial offerings are increased and their essence functionally goes a lot further. Also they may be shocked that a top-of-the-line sammy doesn't have to have their essence near zero at chargen. Instead they may be full of high grade bio and cyber so money went faster than essence. They can actually get MORE CYBER as they get more nuyen and progress through the game.
Also especially in SR4 there is a lot more tech that impacts everyone. Even the mages will be toting around comlinks and a range of other gadgets. However you don't really have "common use" magical items or whatever.
But again I'm in no way saying that magic isn't powerful. It has no shortage of potency. Just not novelty. But I don't know what I would propose to change that. It could be a case of "if it isn't broke don't fix it". (I wish I could come up with a quote that didn't have the word "broke").
Actually wait I should amend that. While not precisley novel the fact that shamen can bind like mages and mages can summon on the fly like shamen is a notable difference in gameplay for both types. And mentor spirits have really be developed, they deserve props for that.
eidolon
Jul 10 2007, 07:23 PM
I edited my above post (and am about to do it again), but Frank: Why would you say Critter books?
Sure, critters have all kinds of magicky powers, but I was under the assumption that we're talking about tech and magic as they apply to enhancing the characters (or by extension, enhancing them by enhancing their other tech; such as in the case of Rigger 3 adding tech that enhances a runner's ride, etc)
If we're just talking about "overall addition of either tech or magic to the game world" it'd be a much different list.
tisoz
Jul 10 2007, 07:23 PM
QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
Actually I would have to say that every Critter book is a "magic" book as well. And all the SotA books had Magic tricks as well as tech tricks. Indeed, the magic updates were probably a bigger deal than the tech (since they included Unified Magic Theory and the like).
-Frank |
I can see why you would say that about Critter books, but to me they are more like threat books.
I still think the majority of the magic updates in the SotA books were crap. Maybe for a high end campaign where you could afford to take advantage of the stuff, because there were better things to pour karma into to keep alive than most of what got introduced. I will admit Word Recognition was useful.
Talia Invierno
Jul 10 2007, 07:31 PM
QUOTE (sunnyside) |
You'd just have to explain that they can ward |
Fairly certain warding was in the Grimoire as well.
QUOTE |
And mentor spirits have really be developed, they deserve props for that. |
How do you see this? From what I've read, it's essentially the same list of totems that kept being added to throughout (I think Awakenings has the closest to comprehensive list); and their general tone remains the same as well. The only distinction is that any Awakened PC can take them.
I did leave off one new thing that I've been playing ever since it was a blurb of shadowtalk in Awakenings: the physical magician, now known as the mystic adept. (Back then, it was suggested they be used only as NPCs.) Still goes back to 2nd edition, but at least it came out close to the third.
sunnyside
Jul 10 2007, 07:33 PM
Still "number of books" isn't neccesarily a good measure. Magic books, edition to edition, tend to just contain the same content rewriten to fit the new edition. At least it seems that way to me. And sometimes variety is lost and never regained from edition to edtion(particularily going into fourth).
mfb
Jul 10 2007, 07:38 PM
magic has advanced, it just hasn't advanced in ways that are directly useful to the average PC mage. bugs, blood magic, shedim, SURGE, and the like are all magical 'advances'.
Talia Invierno
Jul 10 2007, 07:42 PM
Hmm. We still haven't found a 4e magical advance. Two of those are 3rd, the rest 2nd (was blood magic 1st?), and I can't speak for "and the like".
FrankTrollman
Jul 10 2007, 07:47 PM
QUOTE (Talia Invierno) |
Hmm. We still haven't found a 4e magical advance. Two of those are 3rd, the rest 2nd, and I can't speak for "and the like". |
- Designable Traditions.
- Summoning/Binding Unity for traditions other than the Tir Cheese Wheel.
- Shadow Spirits
- Spirit Pacts for non-threat characters.
- Creatable Astral Gateways for PCs.
-Frank
sunnyside
Jul 10 2007, 07:48 PM
QUOTE (mfb @ Jul 10 2007, 02:38 PM) |
magic has advanced, it just hasn't advanced in ways that are directly useful to the average PC mage. bugs, blood magic, shedim, SURGE, and the like are all magical 'advances'. |
Ok I'd buy that. Magic in the world in general has devolped a lot. New critters, spirits, mana warps, SURGE, bugs, Shedhim, crazy mage eating bacteria. (Geez bugs were a lot of fun, if the OP hasn't done bugs I think that should call you back).
However magic in regards to the PCs is relatively unchanged (or reduced) except for the adept.
Magic for mundanes, pretty much nothing that won't make the GM roll their eyes. (hmmm I wonder if the gateways really matter. PCs have been getting hauled through them in some form since Harlequin's Back though).
Mages, not very different. Less variety if anything.
Still except for the OP being board with it I don't see that as a problem. I guess he needs special psionic rules or maybe some kind of "wild mage" thing.
tisoz
Jul 10 2007, 07:49 PM
QUOTE (Talia Invierno) |
QUOTE | And mentor spirits have really be developed, they deserve props for that. |
How do you see this? From what I've read, it's essentially the same list of totems that kept being added to throughout (I think Awakenings has the closest to comprehensive list); and their general tone remains the same as well. The only distinction is that any Awakened PC can take them.
|
Some have changed to give non-magical benefits. But most are essentially cut and paste. Come to think of it, being 'non-magical benefits' is sort of another magic tone down.
Particle_Beam
Jul 10 2007, 07:50 PM
What about those flux-metamagic, or faking your astral signature? Before, it was more like changing yor astral signature permanently. There seems to be a new metamagic called great ritual now, but then again, that wasn't needed for the rules under the prior edition, because ritual spellcasting was so powerfull and not restricted like in SR 4th edition.
Also, there's now an alchemy microlabs for those who like to enchant.
Not that much, but it's better not to overdo the magic in SR, lest it becomes D&D with guns and cyber, and that's not what it should be. D&D with guns and cyber is called D20 Modern: Cyberscape.
eidolon
Jul 10 2007, 07:54 PM
QUOTE (sunnyside) |
Still "number of books" isn't neccesarily a good measure. Magic books, edition to edition, tend to just contain the same content rewriten to fit the new edition. At least it seems that way to me. And sometimes variety is lost and never regained from edition to edtion(particularily going into fourth). |
Well, I agree that a lot or repetition occurs in the magic books, but quite a bit occurs in the tech books as well. And I'd say a 2to1-ish ratio of tech books to magic books says quite a bit.
No, it's not the sole and perfect measure, but it's pretty telling, I think. Even accounting for repetition and dropped ideas/bits, and discounting the SotA books which have a bit of both (I still think they have more tech additions than magic, but I haven't read them in a while), you're looking at give or take 11 tech books to 5 magic for 1st - 3rd edition.
Mind you, I'm not complaining. I love tech and think that magic is plenty powerful without any more books than there are. I just don't think you can deny the initial point, which was that pound for pound, there is a lot more tech than magic in SR (again, when talking about "stuff the PC uses/gets/etc.).
sunnyside
Jul 10 2007, 07:58 PM
@Particle_Beam I'm pretty sure all of that was around in one form or other prior to 4th.
I guess the only way I'd like to see something changed is to have either/or type choices more than additive ones.
For example man and machine was able to fill the bulk of a book with cyberware/bioware/nanoware because it's all mutually exclusive, and occasionally just wouldn't work well together.
Magic, especially in 4th, tends to be more additive. True you only get to spend your BP/Karma once but in time any spell you print can be picked up by any mage. And the better ones tend to show up in most PCs spell lists. And so on.
I'm still not saying there is anything wrong with the magic system, just, how do I put this, I want something for mages as flavorful as "kid stealth" legs. They didn't break the game, but they were fun, and not every sammy could just pick them up if they wanted to.
Talia Invierno
Jul 10 2007, 08:00 PM
A fair list. Let's consider:
QUOTE |
Designable Traditions. |
Rules for designing traditions, yes. That traditions could be designed was previously covered.
QUOTE |
Summoning/Binding Unity for traditions other than the Tir Cheese Wheel. |
Now that last is a point on unanimity across much of the boards! But not everyone sees the consolidation of spirit binding and summoning across traditions as an advance. Call it what it is: a rules simplification.
Paranormal Critters of Europe -- watered down.
QUOTE |
Spirit Pacts for non-threat characters. |
Rules for ideas previously strongly implied -- argh, I know I read this, maybe under the twisted path? Additionally, pacts replaces earlier, less ruled-out ways for the spirit to receive karma from PCs and NPCs: which already existed as soon as the idea of free spirits was introduced.
QUOTE |
Creatable Astral Gateways for PCs. |
This one I don't understand completely. Do you mean that PCs can be Endowed with the Astral Gateway power?
tisoz
Jul 10 2007, 08:03 PM
QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
QUOTE (Talia Invierno @ Jul 10 2007, 02:42 PM) | Hmm. We still haven't found a 4e magical advance. Two of those are 3rd, the rest 2nd, and I can't speak for "and the like". |
[LIST] [*] Designable Traditions.
|
New? Nope.
QUOTE |
[*] Summoning/Binding Unity for traditions other than the Tir Cheese Wheel. |
As you point out, not new, just cheesed for everyone.
Those look like the old motivations for free spirits.
QUOTE |
[*] Spirit Pacts for non-threat characters. |
Not new, anyone could always make deals with spirits.
Ok, there are some new rules for implementing the deal.
QUOTE |
[*] Creatable Astral Gateways for PCs. [/LIST] |
Astral Gateway has been around a long time, unless I'm missing your meaning.
Jaid
Jul 10 2007, 08:06 PM
formalized spirit pacts?
the standardisation of spirits and of magic traditions, including a build-your-own-tradition method?
if i'm not mistaken, this is the first edition with a mana static spell (which is a pretty hefty spell). in fact, i'm fairly certain several of the spells look new (pulse, interference)... probably some of the adept powers also.
not sure if the movement from manipulation to combat for the elemental spells is new, or just reused...
and either i've just never seen/noticed some of the metamagics before, or they're new.
Jaid
Jul 10 2007, 08:10 PM
(i assume frank's astral gateway point is that a player can now actually have access without GM plothammer intervention)
mfb
Jul 10 2007, 08:11 PM
the thing with magic as a concept is, it's not traditionally looked at as something that develops and grows. magic is ancient and ritual. how did the Amerinds get to be so magically powerful? by doing what their great-great-great grandparents did. who are the most powerful mages? dragons and immortal elves. and it's not just SR; magic in fiction is rarely an area where innovation has any value. powerful mages in most fiction do not use their magic in clever ways or discover new principles--they simply have more juice than lesser mages.
moreover, magic in SR is permanent. once you're a dog shaman, you're a dog shaman for life--if someone discovers a more awesome totem, you can't switch. the most change you can hope for is to corrupt yourself, following either blood magic or toxic magic (or both, i guess). once you learn a spell--which carries a non-trivial cost even if it's a spell everyone already knows, like fireball--you know it forever.
so magic, in general and in SR, is simply not prone to advancement.
QUOTE (Jaid) |
if i'm not mistaken, this is the first edition with a mana static spell (which is a pretty hefty spell). in fact, i'm fairly certain several of the spells look new (pulse, interference)... probably some of the adept powers also. |
negative, that was definitely around in 3rd ed, and possibly earlier. i believe it was in MitS.
FrankTrollman
Jul 10 2007, 08:13 PM
QUOTE |
Not new, anyone could always make deals with spirits.
|
Spirit Pacts are not the same thing as "making a deal". Sure, a Spirit could always say it was going to set fire to an apartment building on your behalf in exchange for Karma, but it didn't actually have to do it. A Spirit Pact, in which magical powers are actually exchanged within a defined framework, was available only for Threat Magicians in previous editions. Power Pacts and Dream Pacts did not exist.
QUOTE |
Those look like the old motivations for free spirits. |
The motivations are still in there for Free Spirits. They are even now correctly pluralized, which they weren't in previous editions. The Shadow Spirits are quite different from that. Sure there was the Wraith in SoE, but the others are all new.
QUOTE |
Astral Gateway has been around a long time, unless I'm missing your meaning. |
With defined Greatform powers (rather than the old undefined greatform abilities), an Invoked Guidance Spirit can make an Astral Gateway. Therefore, player characters can make Astral Gateways with their own abilities, they don't have to wait for the GM to throw down an NPC Free Spirit who happens to feel like helping them out.
-Frank
Talia Invierno
Jul 10 2007, 08:26 PM
QUOTE (mfb) |
so magic, in general and in SR, is simply not prone to advancement. |
One word: cyberzombies.
Edit:
As to the rest, the changes seem more prone to adding extra details or to applying the equivalent of tort law to what already existed. There is also a fairly strong undercurrent of freeing players from having to make social compromises to get what they want.
Some may consider these significant advances.
tisoz
Jul 10 2007, 08:28 PM
QUOTE (Jaid) |
if i'm not mistaken, this is the first edition with a mana static spell (which is a pretty hefty spell). in fact, i'm fairly certain several of the spells look new (pulse, interference)... probably some of the adept powers also. |
Mana Static is in SR3, Pulse may be new to deal with RFID, but since it sounds a bit like Interference which is a new name for an old spell that disrupted technological devices. Check Chaff and Flak for the similarity.
QUOTE |
not sure if the movement from manipulation to combat for the elemental spells is new, or just reused... |
They were mixed in 1st edition with spalls like Hellblast being a Combat spell.
QUOTE |
and either i've just never seen/noticed some of the metamagics before, or they're new. |
Yeah, that one where you need a metamagic to summon an ally is new. Like it wasn't hard enough to get a decent ally. Flex looks new, Flexible Signature replaces changing your sig once which was broke, IMO. Great Ritual, just what is happens, and if it what it sounds like, big deal.
Talia Invierno
Jul 10 2007, 08:32 PM
Actually, about three years ago I posted on Dumpshock my custom version of an EMP spell that my character had developed. It was debated up and down for what its real effects would actually be, since it was so relatively simple to tech-protect against EM fluctuations.
tisoz
Jul 10 2007, 08:36 PM
QUOTE (FrankTrollman) |
With defined Greatform powers (rather than the old undefined greatform abilities), an Invoked Guidance Spirit can make an Astral Gateway. Therefore, player characters can make Astral Gateways with their own abilities, they don't have to wait for the GM to throw down an NPC Free Spirit who happens to feel like helping them out.
-Frank |
They still need to be magically active, and the magically active could travel to the metaplanes upon initiaton.
I guess that you are saying that the magician can manipulate things to order the spirit to provide a gateway for mundanes. A magician could accomplish the same thing with the RAW, I think, since 1st edition.. Definitely 3rd, and pretty sure 2nd.
Talia Invierno
Jul 10 2007, 08:38 PM
!
Where advancement really should have occurred -- and didn't -- was in finding odd ways for magic to complement technology and vice versa. For example, 3rd edition brought us mage glasses.
Although we're promised some interesting advances in Augmentation -- we'll see where that takes us from the magic pov.
Edit:
FrankTrollman is pointing out that there no longer needs to be a convenient and inconveniently free-willed free spirit around for access to Astral Gateway (which can also be used by mundanes). Now, it's a summoned spirit power.
sunnyside
Jul 10 2007, 08:48 PM
Actually couldn't you summon a spirit, free it, then make a run on it's home plane to get its true name to bind it? Or some varient on that.
Granted that is just begging for trouble. But you could do it yes?
And SR even has a perfect excuse for magical stuff built right in. The whole "stuff changes as the magic levels go up". So before mundanes couldn't use magic at all, but now suddenly mages can enchant items that mundanes can use in some way.
Wakshaani
Jul 10 2007, 09:00 PM
Personally, I want magic nowhere NEAR my technology.
I don't want to see backpack-mounted "Mana Leaches" that drain all magic from an area (Akin to The First Person Shooter That Shall Not Be Named ) or new environmentally-friendly cars that run on bound Elementals.
These are Bad Ideas, and things I want no part of. When we get security drones with Sorcery autosofts, backed by 'ManaBatteris' that allow them to hurl fireballs, I think I can safely say tht I'm done with Shadowrun.
So, lets not go down that route, 'kay?
I'm rather fond of the place!
coolgrafix
Jul 10 2007, 09:04 PM
QUOTE (Synner667 @ Jul 10 2007, 01:55 PM) |
...and there is little background material being produced - in fact most of the material available [or was produced] is from SR1/SR2 !!
Yes, there are sourcebooks but so far we mainly have updated versions of old sourcebooks.
I can't foresee anything like BugCity, Denver, Tir Na Nog, Lone Star, etc being produced.
It's like the SR producers want to limit SR to a couple of cities and almost forget about all the stuff that's happened [Harlequin who ?? Astral Horrors ?? Immortal elves ?? etc]. |
Nigel Findley died a tragic premature death.
Tom Dowd moved to other things.
Those who carry the mantle of the past are doing a good job, but the big shoes have never been filled. The day Findley died was the day the music died for Shadowrun.
But like
Buddy Holly and Rock & Roll, life goes on and
progress does get made. I think SR4 is the first real step in a long, long time.
Adarael
Jul 10 2007, 09:08 PM
QUOTE |
There's a bunch of Cyberpunk RPGs out there, and SR is not very different anymore...For me, it's not the gazillion different gadgets or programs or vehicles or even the spells that gave SR its spark - it was the background...SR is descending into AD&D-ism, where the there are pages of gadgets, spells, vehicles, etc and those become more important than the characters in SR. |
I will go on record to note that this perception is an opinion, not a fact, and in no way relates to the 'actual state of things.' While you may feel this way, I feel exactly the opposite. Recent SR releases have seen the elevation of mystery, decision-making, and moral quandries over the triumph of tech over opposition. Shadowrun's major draw for me has always been the world. It's extremely well-detailed, and once you get back the basic assumptions that seem kinda crazy, everything falls into a (mostly) logical space.
Talia Invierno
Jul 10 2007, 09:19 PM
QUOTE (sunnyside) |
Actually couldn't you summon a spirit, free it, then make a run on it's home plane to get its true name to bind it? Or some varient on that.
Granted that is just begging for trouble. But you could do it yes? |
Yes. You'd have no guarantees it would have the one specific power you needed though. Astral Gateway was a reasonably uncommon one, by the rolls.
QUOTE (Wakshaani) |
Personally, I want magic nowhere NEAR my technology. |
Far too late for that ...