Sorry I really should have included the original quote as well. I agree with where you're coming from there I'll edit the original post to be more clear.

...sometime before October we are going to have a known artificially enhanced athlete break one of the the all time hallowed records in sports. Whether he deserves to be recognised or not for this achievement has been a matter of heated debate among fans and sports analysts alike. But he will eventually do it unless every pitcher from now until season's end intentionally walks him.

Less than a decade ago, the long standing single season Home Run record of 61 was shattered by two players in a hyped up chase, one having hit 66 & the other belting out 70 before all was said & done. After retiring, the all time single season "home run king" admitted to having used a performance enhancing substance called Androstenedione. The jury is still out on the runner up but there is much speculation it was more than a corked bat.

By contrast, George Herman Ruth overindulged in food, cigars (actually had his own brand) drink and occasionally women - in a sense leading a "performance hindering" lifestyle. Yet he was regarded as being larger than life, a hero to all who loved and/or aspired to some day be part of the game. Ruth also established two records that stood for decades: the first surpassed in 1961 when Roger Eugene Maris broke his single season home run total of 60 and the second in 1974 when Henry Louis Aaron hit homer #715 at old Fulton County Stadium (note: both of these done after the regular season that had been expanded by 8 games in 1961).

History will say whether Mr Bonds, Mr McGuire, & Mr Sosa (who just surpassed 600 HR) will take their place behind among legends like Cobb, Ruth, Maris, Mantle and Aaron for their feats, or whether there will be an "*" behind each of their names for all time.

Just some food for thought from a long time fan of the game.

A couple of quick points (not sure if any were covered earlier):

1. The IOC is not bound by the Americans with Disabilities Act.

2. For now, this is a bit of a moot point since he has not yet run a qualifying time.

3. Technically, Bonds has not been proven to be a user, though there is admittedly a large amount of smoke billowing up from his enlarged dome. (And yes, I personally believe that he did in fact use roids).

4. I do believe that this certainly falls into the gray area. IIRC one of the concerns was that there was some thought that the legs created less wind resistance thereby giving him the advantage. Certainly, it seems unlikely that athletes would amputate their legs in the future so as to be able to run faster, but as others have stated where do you draw the line? What about eventually adding Muscle Toner and the like? Or Wired Reflexes?

5. The other problem here is that it seems hard to make a compromise so as to level the playing field if indeed there is an advantage gained by the artificial limbs. This is different in my mind than the Casey Martin case with the PGA. To me, it also seemed logical that a reasonable compromise would be to then allow any player in the field to use a golf cart in any event in which Martin was competing. That would eliminate the advantage gained by Martin.

Personally, I would say that if he is able to run a qualifying time and otherwise make his country's team, he should be allowed to compete. But that is just based on my personal feelings, not on any analysis of the rules, fairness, advantages, etc.

I think before he is disqualified from the Olympics a credible scientific study on those prosthetics needs to be made. It isn't enough for some committee to come to a consensus for his disqualification, they need proof. Once they are able to prove or disprove his advantage, then a decision can be made.

Odd, I thought that before he was allowed in the Olympics a credible scientific study on those prosthetics needs to be made. It isn't enough for a small public outcry to come to a consensus for his qualification, they need proof. Once they are able to prove or disprove his advantage, then a decision can be made.

To be fair I believe I read that they are not currently banning him, just that they are investigating whether or not they do give him an unfair advantage.

I think though, that the important thing to take from this story is how far we've come technologically and that its great to see that a horrific injury no longer means that you will be highly limited in what you can do. Personally, I think its great that we have to have a debate on this because it was not long ago when it would have been a completely moot issue since a double amputee would not have been able to come close to beating Olympic-class athletes.

Excellent point. It is an amazing world in which this can even be debated.

Most certainly people WOULD 'amputate their legs' for an advantage. During the cold war, many Russian athletes were given highly experimental drugs in order to give them an edge. This isn't a decision they made, it was almost certainly made by someone higher up the food chain. So when you're making a decision to chop off someone else's legs to win your country prestige, it becomes a slightly different game.

Someone else already pointed this out, it can be very political. Imagine come 2050 when you have corporation sponsored runners. Where do you think the corporation would draw the line? Finding accident victims? Using low-impact, well tested drugs and equipment? Not in any Shadowrun I play.

I'll be the first to say it, then. If I were an olympic runner, and these legs were both legal in the sport and proven to give a competitve advantage, I'd get my legs cut off and have them attached. I'd probably regret it now and then, but I'd do it.

and to bring in a SR slant, thats the problem with cyberlimbs as of currently. the rules dont give them an advantage over going with other implants, outside of the ability to use them for concealed storage space.

but then as with any game, if they had an advantage, people would wonder what the point of the other implants would be. so there have to be a give and take. as in, better performance vs higher cost in some other area. but right now the limbs cost more and performs less then the alternatives iirc.

hell, just today there was news about someone competing in the tour de france that was discovered to be using drugs. and from what i understand, the tv companys from the persons home nation is now pulling their coverage of the event.

is that the start of corp pressure?

hell, i can see street gangers in SR getting themselves high on combat drugs because its a dangerous place and you need any edge you can get. sure, there are known side effects, but they are not 100%, but death will be guaranteed if you dont win...

with the news outlets owned by the same corps that makes performance enhancing drugs, be sure that spin will be the norm, not the exception. a pilot bombed the wrong target while using some drug? the news is sure to drum up some unknown problem that the pilot had thats fully unrelated to said drug.

so long to the impartial media...

I'm surprised you guys didn't notice this, but each cyberlimb starts with 3 in each attribute (so if you're a weakling you get a free boost out-of-the-box) and the description under Cyberlimbs shows how to buy increased strength, agility, armor and how every cyberlimb gives you extra Body. The stats are only with that cyberlimb, so if you want total coverage you need all 6 cyber replacements.

The prices are on the cyberlimb accessory tables. Its not cheap but not uber expensive.

Except that the capacity cost makes it impossible to buy multiple stats up to a decent level.

It would be kinda funny if a bunch of runners got their legs cut off to get these fancy new legs if they were allowed, and then afterwards they made them illegal.

That would be funny. You know what else is funny? That that was written by someone with the handle "unarmed".


Yeah, cyberlimbs are great if your physical attributes are 1 or 2. For everyone else, especially those really pushing the bounds of physical fitness, they're a serious step backwards.

Ok, just going with stats and what you can get from limbs, and assuming a character that doesn't need great mental stats:

Stats (120 BP)
S 1
A 1
B 1
R 5
C 3
I 3
L 3
W 3

Limbs
2 Arms: Agility +4, Body +4, Strength +1
Capacity used: 9. Capacity remaining: 6 (earmarked for agility and body)

2 Legs: Agility +4, Body +4, Strength +4, Spurs
Capacity Used: 15. Capacity Remaining: 4, earmarked for agility and body)

Torso: Strength +2, Body +4
Capacity Used: 8. Capacity Remaining: 2 (earmarked for body)

Skull: Body +4
Capacity Used: 4, Capacity Remaining (0)

Starting you've got Agility 7 for shooting and melee (specialize in kicking with spurs). Your kicks have a strength of 7. For soak you've got a 7 body and 16 health boxes.

Eventually you'll have a 9 agility and body for shooting, soaking, and kicking. Your strength for kick damage will stay 7.

Total cost: 102,600 (21 BP)

One major problem is that to get really good capacity you have to go with obvious limbs. That would be ok except that for some reason strength and body enhancements are illegal so you'll always need to have a good fake ID with licenses on you.

Hopefully Augmentation will have better cyberlimb rules. Reduced capacity for alpha or better enhancements would be a good start.

The key thing that cyber replacement limbs gets you that nothing else does is extra boxes on your condition monitor. The only way to get 5 boxes on your condition monitor over and above what you would normally get is through body replacement.

As to your build:
This turned into an argument over in this thread: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=16751

Other than the munchkin/abusive minmaxing issues, what concerns me with the build is that there’s a lack of clarity on how you should handle damage/healing/repair. Your real body is 1. If you’re willing to say that your cyber body is not self repairing then you have to consider that some of your damage has to be healed with repairs, and some with your body of 1… and a body of 1 is not something you want to deal with when in less than a hospital setting.

Not to mention disease an toxins…

I'm not sure I want to argue about it here, but if you feel like arguing feel free to ressurect that dead thread.

The simple fix is just to assume that cyberlimbs start with the same ratings as the character had to begin with. I justify it by saying that the limbs are actually completely capable of high end performance out of the box, but they have to be adjusted down to levels the operator can tolerate. The enhancements that take up space aren't actually enhancements to strength or agility, but dampeners and enhanced attachments that give the cyborg better resistance to over-performance.