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FrankTrollman
The Bio-hole and Cyber-hole system slapped in at the last minute to Augmentation make no mention of actually being part of the appropriate Cyber- or Bio- costs. Indeed, the holes are fixed until filled.

So let's take the case where one player has 4 Essence worth of Cyberware and 3.5 Essence worth of Bio-ware. He actually pays 4 Essence for his Cyberware, and 1.75 Essence for his Bioware - leaving him with only .25 Essence.

Here's the stupid part: He gets a cyberlimb removed. His Essence cost for Cyberware drops to 3.0, and his arbitrary Essence Hole goes up to 1.0. His Bio-cost is still 3.5.

Only now his Bio-cost exceeds his Cyber-cost (3.5 versus 3.0). So the dynamic cost of his Cyberware drops to 1.5 and the dynamic cost of his Bioware rises to 3.5. And of course he still has an arbitrary hole of 1.0: total loss 3.5 + 1.5 + 1.0 = 6.0 exactly and he dies.

---

So yeah. Someone thought that they were closing a loop hole. I don't know what loophole they thought they were closing because there isn't one. They did however, introduce some grade-A stupid into the system. The multiple Essence Holes thing is all bad at every level. Sometimes it kills people from Essence Loss for having Cyberware removed. Not very often, but it does so ever which is more than the single hole system does.

---

To reiterate: there is not a single problem at any level under any circumstances with the single hole model. It is in all ways easier to explain, easier to use, and less prone to surprising and/or abusive results. Under no circumstances would I advocate using the rules that ended up on page 128 over what I actually wrote andI am deeply disappointed that they ended up getting into print without my knowledge.

-Frank
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Synner)
If it helps, and judging by peoples' reactions it might, I will be pushing to include the generic Essence hole rule as a Tweaking the Rules option in errata - it should have been included but we ran out of space there.

Why not simply label the Specific Essence Hole Rules as Optional Rule?
That wouldn't take too much space... and allows everyone that want's to use it with more 'security' as implementing it as a Tweak.

The fact that you can fill holes is already stated in the first chapter, leaving the Generic Essence Hole in place.
Synner
QUOTE (Frank)
The Bio-hole and Cyber-hole system slapped in at the last minute to Augmentation make no mention of actually being part of the appropriate Cyber- or Bio- costs. Indeed, the holes are fixed until filled.

This change was not implemented at the last minute and was added to drafts made available more than a month before Augmentation went to print. The authors and playtesters had plenty of time to provide feedback and many did.

QUOTE
So let's take the case where one player has 4 Essence worth of Cyberware and 3.5 Essence worth of Bio-ware. He actually pays 4 Essence for his Cyberware, and 1.75 Essence for his Bioware - leaving him with only .25 Essence.

Here's the stupid part: He gets a cyberlimb removed. His Essence cost for Cyberware drops to 3.0, and his arbitrary Essence Hole goes up to 1.0. His Bio-cost is still 3.5.

Only now his Bio-cost exceeds his Cyber-cost (3.5 versus 3.0). So the dynamic cost of his Cyberware drops to 1.5 and the dynamic cost of his Bioware rises to 3.5. And of course he still has an arbitrary hole of 1.0: total loss 3.5 + 1.5 + 1.0 = 6.0 exactly and he dies.


You are mistaken and have misunderstood the rule or how the calculation is performed. The "Essence hole" is not factored directly into the total Essence loss at all. In fact, no subtotals are modified at all when anything is removed. If 1 Essence point worth of cyberware is removed the character's cyberware (sub)total remains at 3.5 (he just has 1.0 of that total available to reuse).

In your example:

One character has 4 Essence worth of Cyberware and 3.5 Essence worth of Bio-ware. He actually pays 4 Essence for his Cyberware, and 1.75 Essence for his Bioware - leaving him with only .25 Essence.

He gets a cyberlimb removed.

His cyberware essence loss total remains at 4 since the 1.0 lost to the cyberlimb hasn't regrown and continues to count towards the cyberware total (the 1.0 cyberlimb has just been replaced with a 1.0 "Essence hole" which can be used for something else) and his Bio-cost is still 3.5.

QUOTE
So yeah. Someone thought that they were closing a loop hole. I don't know what loophole they thought they were closing because there isn't one. They did however, introduce some grade-A stupid into the system. The multiple Essence Holes thing is all bad at every level. Sometimes it kills people from Essence Loss for having Cyberware removed. Not very often, but it does so ever which is more than the single hole system does.


Again, I repeat, the rule says nothing about altering totals or subtotals when anything is removed. Calculations are only necessary when something is added.
Ol' Scratch
Again, we repeat: What loopholes and bookkeeping salvations did the bio-hole/cyber-hole add compared to the base system? You said people were complaining and things were more difficult, but have yet to show any evidence of this at all.
Synner
I've paraphrased one of the playtest reports in one of my previous posts. It was one of several such. Obviously, several people found it more intuitive to include the Essence holes in the subtotals than in the Essence total. We had no problem with that and its implications.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
You are mistaken and have misunderstood the rule or how the calculation is performed. The "Essence hole" is not factored directly into the total Essence loss at all. In fact, no subtotals are modified at all when anything is removed. If 1 Essence point worth of cyberware is removed the character's cyberware (sub)total remains at 3.5 (he just has 1.0 of that total available to reuse).


Peter, if it actually said that, this would just be an unnecessarily complicated and silly rule that improves the game in no way and serves only to irritate. But what it actually says is this:

QUOTE (Augmentation @ p. 128)
When a character has an implant removed to be replaced or upgraded, this leaves what is known as an “Essence hole�—a disparity between the total Essence Cost of her implants (see Cyberware and Bioware, p. 84, SR4) and her current Essence. This Essence hole never “heals� naturally. It may, however, be used as a “credit� for any new implants of the same type (cyber- or bioware)—simply deduct the Essence hole from the new implant’s Essence cost before applying it to your total.


OK, what it actually says is that the Essence hole is a cost added in at the end of the calculation ("A disparity between the total Essence Cost of her implants and her current Essence."), and that when you fill it again it fills in at the beginning of the calculation ("deduct the Essence hole from the new implant's Essence cost before applying it to your total.")

Technically as you have it in right now, Essence Holes never go away because they are being used as currency to purchase further implants instead of losing Essence. So if you have a .25 Essence hole and a 1.2 Essence hole you actually still have to keep track of that - forever, and further implants will be paid for out of those holes first and then out of your Essence in a dynamic fashion based on whether Cyber or Bio has a larger cost (after reductions from Essence holes).

----

This is serious Man and Machine bullshit. It's really complicated and it fucks the game right in the ass. Partly, this is obviously my fault because when I saw it going through revisions I skimmed to the example and saw that in the example everything appeared to be working properly, not noticing that in fact you had cocked it all up for no reason.

Aaargh!

-Frank
Synner
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jul 29 2007, 04:06 PM)
QUOTE (Augmentation @  p. 128)
When a character has an implant removed to be replaced or upgraded, this leaves what is known as an “Essence hole�—a disparity between the total Essence Cost of her implants (see Cyberware and Bioware, p. 84, SR4) and her current Essence. This Essence hole never “heals� naturally. It may, however, be used as a “credit� for any new implants of the same type (cyber- or bioware)—simply deduct the Essence hole from the new implant’s Essence cost before applying it to your total.

You are correct in that the wording is unclear. The final sentence of this quote should end "to your cyberware or bioware (sub)total." In fact, it did in previous drafts. My bad for not rechecking the version.

P.84 of the BBB explains how to calculate the total Essence loss from the two separate tallies so there is no contradiction there.

You are also correct in that Essence holes factor into the subtotals until they are filled. The fact that they factor in at this stage is the only significant difference from the single Essence total and it's most obvious result is to make cyber-intensive and bio-intensive characters hard to inverse.

As usual your opinion will be taken into consideration when errata comes up.
Whipstitch
Ugh, I gotta stop checking up on this thread. It's sucking all the fun out of the shiny new toys in Aug for me. The whole idea that mundanes are really "committed" heavily to Cyberware OR Bioware rather than just committed to trading essence for power kind of annoys me. I was hoping Augmentation would offer a light at the end of the tunnel for endgame Samurai. Right now it seems to have mostly offered a great way to make BioAdepts with a path to Delta-grade equivalent 'ware out of the box. Synaptic 1, Synthacardium 3, platelet factories and Muscle Toner 2 for 1 essence. Yeesh.
Ranneko
The only point at which mundans are really committed to heavily to one side or the other is when they have over 4.0 essence worth of one or the other, before that point you can always get more cyber/bio and shift things around.

It has always been the case that the most optimal build essence wise is 4.0/3.99

With the Type O front, all I can say is, buy a street doc contact with high loyalty.
mfb
this is retarded. if bioware and cyberware both deduct from Essence, then they should do so interchangeably because they're both impacting the same stat. if they're going to impact Essence differently, then you should go back to splitting Essence and Bio Index, and simply applying them the same way Essence is applied now. having five different values for the same stat is some seriously "streamlined" thinking.
Synner
QUOTE (mfb @ Jul 29 2007, 09:22 PM)
having five different values for the same stat is some seriously "streamlined" thinking.

There only three values.

Under the core rules you keep a continuous tally of your Essence loss to cyberware and another for bioware. The lowest of the two (sub)totals is halved and then both are added together. The resulting Essence loss is subtracted from 6 to yield your Essence rating - this means keeping track of 2 values, adding the highest to half of the lowest and deducting that from your 6 Essence - so 3 values at best though the final one is derived.

This basic mechanic has been in place since the beginning and one often overlooked aspect of it is that strangenesses can occur when one (sub)total is increased over the original "dominant" one. Note this has nothing to do with Essence holes in Augmentation, but occurs every time the lower subtotal increases above the value of the higher subtotal.

In Augmentation, once a piece of cyber or bio is removed the 2 subtotals values are unchanged (though one now has an unused Essence hole to be filled). Consequently no stats need to be changed or recalculated until that hole is filled and exceeded by new implants. This is as complicated as jotting down your Essence hole beside the subtotals. The derived Essence attribute/value does not need to be recalculated until the existing Essence hole is exceeded.

Frank has correctly pointed out that the writeup is unclear and even misleading on this point (citing the "Essence total" rather than the "subtotals" in one critical line). I will be taking his opinion and others under advisement and passing them on to Rob when we go for errata.

Meanwhile Frank has posted an edit of the writeup in the Augmentation errata thread, those of you unsatisfied with the current rules are free to use that.
mfb
there are five. your current essence, the amount of essence occupied by your current cyberware and your current bioware, and the essence holes for each.
Synner
I stand corrected. Under that logic though the single Essence hole approach has you keeping track of 4 values anyway: your current essence, the amount of essence occupied by your current cyberware and your current bioware, and your "generic" essence hole.
mfb
yeah, but withe the four-stats approach, there's only two 'tiers' of stats: essence, which subdivides into essence hole, bioware essence, and cyberware essence. it's easy to track--one main stat three sub-stats that are directly related to the main stat. with the five-stat approach, there are three tiers that branch out and impact each other without being related: essence, which goes down first to cyberware essence, which ramifies into current and hole; secone, bioware essence, which ramifies into current and hole. the addition of the third tier adds a non-linear layer of complexity; five sub-values is not one point more complex than four sub-values.
Rotbart van Dainig
You can do that, if you wish so. But you don't need to.

Every time you change your implants, you re-calculate from 6. (Of course, if you are a Ghoul or got sucked dry by a vampire, it would be 6 minus that... but that's a special case even the Essence hole rules don't adress)
If that value is bigger (or the same) than your current Essence, Essence statys the same.
If not, you got yourself a new Essence value.

That's what you have to do anyways if you ever change the predominant implant costs.
mfb
that sorta cuts down on complexity, if your only concern is what your current essence is. you're effectively tracking your maximum cyber and bio essence values, instead of tracking the holes--which is easier, because the max value is only going to go up. however, it makes bookkeeping more complex when you want to start planning your next implant. you have to either a) hypothetically add the new implant cost into your essence and recalculate from six for each implant and combination of implants you're considering, or b) subtract the current value of all your cyber/bio implants from your current cyber/bio essence to find out how big your hole is--effectively tracking seven sub-stats instead of just five.
Rotbart van Dainig
As I said - you have to do that anyway once Cyber > Bio turns into Bio < Cyber.
Even the new Essence hole rules don't fix that.

So at the end of the day, the only thing those rules do is re-introduce 'Bioindex'.
Was that the intent of those rules?
mfb
no you don't. you just add up the cyber and bio values, see which one's bigger, subtract from 6 and then add the essence hole. am i missing something?
Rotbart van Dainig
..perhaps the fact that this is exactly what I said... just plus Essence Hole. nyahnyah.gif

There's no actual need to keep track of the Essence Hole if it's generic.
FrankTrollman
We naturally are forced to use additional sub-totals because we count down from purity instead of counting up to impurity. Then we use yet more subtotals because Cyber- and Bio- Essence are treated differently. The Augmentation write-up introduced three additional numbers and Synner has clarified that they are intended to function in a manner that is in no way similar to how they are written.

---

In any case, the basic rules (and my version) contain five values:
  1. Your racial normal value (usually 6.0).
    .
  2. Your Cyberware Essence Cost Subtotal.
    .
  3. Your Bioware Essence Cost Subtotal.
    .
  4. Your total Essence Cost (the higher of #2 or #3 + 1/2 of the other).
    .
  5. Your current Essence (No more than #1 minus #4).


Now, Augmentation introuces three additional values:
  1. Your Cyberware Essence hole.
    .
  2. Your Bioware Essence hole.
    .
  3. Your lifetime non-payment Essence losses.


Now the Augmentation book on page 128 flat out says that all three of these additional values are added together and subtracted from your Essence total (The #5 line in orange above). And that's... really bad because of course this can quite easily cause characters to die of Essence loss because they removed cyberware. However, Synner has come out and said that essentially the #1 and #2 subtotals from Yellow are actually supposed to be combined with the #2 and #3 orange subtotals (respectively), creating two new subtotals which should be used as the inputs for the the Orange #4 in lieu of #2 and #3 Orange alone. Then presumably the #3 Yellow would be subtracted from the #5 Orange as described, but I'm not super clear.

---

So yeah. Technically we're going from 5 subtotals to 10, although two of them seem to exist only in Peter's intentions.

...And I still haven't seen even a single example of how or why this us better in any way shape or form.

-Frank
mfb
you know, while we're at it, where are the rules for calculating surgery costs?
Ravor
Sure we have, we've been told that some faceless playtesters thought it was easier then the old way.
Rotbart van Dainig
In which case your version would miss 'Your lifetime non-payment Essence losses.', Frank.

That's not a biggie, because it factors in after step 1 of 'your' (well, up until now, pretty much everyone did it that way...) system... and getting partially eaten by a blood spirit is worth noting an additional number. wink.gif
Ravor
I for one consider that a good thing.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
In which case your version would miss 'Your lifetime non-payment Essence losses.', Frank.

That's not a biggie, because it factors in after step 1 of 'your' (well, up until now, pretty much everyone did it that way...) system... and getting partially eaten by a blood spirit is worth noting an additional number. wink.gif

Not exactly. In my version your Lifetime non-payment Essence losses come straight out of Orange line #5, which in turn is capped by line #4 subtracted from line #1 but not otherwise linked.

So if line #4 goes up, line #5 may go down. But Line #5 doesn't go up if line #4 goes down; and if line #5 is presently lower than line #4 and #1 would generate (for example: Blood Spirit attack), then nothing happens.

Having a special number of lifetime Essence losses and then creating a 1:1 correspondance between the output of the subtotals and the final Essence is, I think, a bad move. For one thing it implies that Essence can be restored once lost, which it very specifically shouldn't be.

-Frank
Rotbart van Dainig
..uh, the Essence sucked from a bloodspirit will be restored through cellular repair. And after yo freed up implant space, you can get it back 0,1 points a month.
Ravor
Only now it can through genetech...
Synner
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
However, Synner has come out and said that essentially the #1 and #2 subtotals from Yellow are actually supposed to be combined with the #2 and #3 orange subtotals respectively), creating two new subtotals which should be used as the inputs for the the Orange #4 in lieu of #2 and #3 Orange alone. Then presumably the #3 Yellow would be subtracted from the #5 Orange as described, but I'm not super clear.

Actually no, that's not what Synner said. I was clarifying the intent of the rules on p.182 before we botched the editing.

What Synner actually said was that the #1 and #2 subtotals from Yellow are simply noted besides the #2 and #3 Orange subtotals. These remain unchanged (in fact, none of your Orange values are affected in any way by removal of implants, so no calculations are necessary at this point).

When something new is implanted you compare the essence cost of the new implant with the existing Essence hole (Yellow #1 or #2). If the Essence loss of the new implant being installed is inferior to the Essence hole then you simply adjust the Essence hole - no changes are made to your Orange values at all.

If, and only if, the essence loss of the new implant exceeds the existing Essence hole (Yellow #1 or #2), do you have to recalculate Orange #2 and #3 subtotals, cascading into changes to your Orange #4 and #5 (identical to the resolution of any new implant that calls for further Essence loss).

As Frank has dutifully pointed out this is not clear even in the current writeup (after comparing to previous drafts its clear some remnants were left in in final editing) and there will undoubtedly be errata.

I believe that the fact that playtest groups found this mechanic "easier" has simply to do with the fact that you don't need to recalculate the Orange values every time you implant something. You just keep track of the Yellow #1 and #2 values and when those are "refilled" or exceeded do you recalculate the Orange values.
Rotbart van Dainig
So, the only reason Bioindex was re-introduced is that people wanted to save calculations when explanting more than they implant?
Ol' Scratch
Here's all it needs to be in retardedly simplistic alegebra.
    Step 1: X = Essence loss due to all cyberware implants
    Step 2: Y = Essence loss duel to all bioware implants
    Step 3: If X >= Y then Y = Y / 2 else X = X / 2
    Step 4: Z = 6 - ( X + Y )
    Step 5: If Z < Essence then Z = Essence.
That's all that's needed. There's no need to have anything called an Essence hole or to maintain how much free space you have at all.

If you want to see what implants you can afford to get, you just add its Essence cost to the end of X oy Y as appropriate and do the two simple, plain, no-difficulty-at-all steps 3 and 4 with the adjusted values. It's something you have to do no if you're using this system or the one in the book as the moment the cyberware-bioware flip-flop occurs, all those Essence holes suddenly twist and mutate.

There's only three things to maintain. Essence total for cyberware implants, Essence total for bioware implants and current Essence score. Holes are a pure metagaming concept and mean nothing in the actual game, nor do they do anything to make figuring out what implants you can get any easier.

I simply can't grasp why you think otherwise. Nor do I know any of these playtesters who claimed the excessive bookkeeping was in any way easier or required less bookkeeping.

It's the KISS Principle personified in all it's glory.
Synner
And with that I'm going to remove myself from this discussion. I will note that I have not expressed my opinion on the subject at any point, I have simply attempted to clarify how the rule was intended to work and why the decision was made to change it.

I was attempting to be helpful and constructive. I now see no point in continuing this discussion, since this is the second time someone has questioned my assertions about the feedback from playtesting as the main reason for the printed rule.

Contrary to some opinions, we don't make changes to author's drafts that have already undergone multiple revisions at our request, for the fun of it.

Have fun.
Ol' Scratch
I was just trying to say that I don't know who any of them are or what their arguments were, so I can't comment on them. Not that they didn't exist or that you were making things up.

I think the problem stems from some of us being interested in knowing why the current system was chosen over any of the much easier methods demonstrated in this thread and elsehwere, while most of what you have to say in response is how it works and that it's simpler without demonstrating how or why it actually is. Just that it is and only because some playtesters said it was.

<shrugs> Sorry if I offended. I seem to have a knack for doing that unintentionally in message forums.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (Synner)
When something new is implanted you compare the essence cost of the new implant with the existing Essence hole (Yellow #1 or #2). If the Essence loss of the new implant being installed is inferior to the Essence hole then you simply adjust the Essence hole - no changes are made to your Orange values at all.

If, and only if, the essence loss of the new implant exceeds the existing Essence hole (Yellow #1 or #2), do you have to recalculate Orange #2 and #3 subtotals, cascading into changes to your Orange #4 and #5 (identical to the resolution of any new implant that calls for further Essence loss).


The problem is... you are changing the Orange values. Indeed, the only way to know if your Essence drops or not is to change the Orange values, which are themselves always the combined total of the Essence cost of your implants.

---

All you've done by creating the new specific Essence hole is to produce an extra step whereby if the new Orange value is less than or equal to the old orange value plus the "Essence hole" value your Essence doesn't change. But you're still adding and subtracting the same amount of numbers at that point when you don't change the Essence value.

And then of course if you do change the Essence value it's actually a lot more math because the only information you've gained by doing the required "Essence hole" subtraction is the difference in that Orange subtotal - which you then have to add back into that subtotal exactly as if you'd just added it in from the beginning.

Of course, that additional net change subtotal isn't even something convenient like "the amount your Essence changes" - as you still have to compare the new subtotals of cyber- and bio- to determine which is halved before deciding how much your Essence changes.

---

Or to make a concrete example:

Let's say that you've got a cyberlimb (Essence cost 1) and a Synaptic Booster (Essence Cost .5). Now, you have an Essence of 4.75 - because the Bioware costs half Essence.

Now we remove the Cyberlimb (freeing up an Essence "hole" of 1). Our Essence is still 4.75 of course because Essence doesn't recuperate on its own.

So now we put in some more cyberware, let's say Muscle Replacement 2. This has a cost of 2, and according to the p. 128 version we're looking at subtracting 1 from 2 and then adding the result back to 1(!) See, the hole is subtracted from the cost, but the total cost includes the hole, so the subtraction cancels out in the end. You end up having a Cyberware Essence cost of 2 regardless of whether you were keeping track of the "Cyberware Essence hole" - it's just that this way you subtract the hole value from the cost of your new implants before adding the remainder to the hole value.

That's why people are so incredulous. Putting aside the weird implications or the botched prepositions, the entire process as intended is a waste of time. It factors out at the end of the day and yet involves a couple of extra math steps for nothing.

---

So when you say that people found this "easier" - other people with math backgrounds are actually offended. It literally can't be any easier to do it this way, because it's in all ways less work to not do it.

You're asking people to subtract C and then add the same C immediately afterwards in the middle of their equation. It's puzzling. People think you aren't being straight with them.

-Frank
Synner
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jul 30 2007, 02:42 AM)
QUOTE (Synner)
When something new is implanted you compare the essence cost of the new implant with the existing Essence hole (Yellow #1 or #2). If the Essence loss of the new implant being installed is inferior to the Essence hole then you simply adjust the Essence hole - no changes are made to your Orange values at all.

If, and only if, the essence loss of the new implant exceeds the existing Essence hole (Yellow #1 or #2), do you have to recalculate Orange #2 and #3 subtotals, cascading into changes to your Orange #4 and #5 (identical to the resolution of any new implant that calls for further Essence loss).


The problem is... you are changing the Orange values. Indeed, the only way to know if your Essence drops or not is to change the Orange values, which are themselves always the combined total of the Essence cost of your implants.

One final time, cause I really do have better things to do.

No. Reread my post. I did not say the Orange values do not change. In fact I said they do change. What I said was that they only change when something new is added and then only when that something new exceeds the existing bioware or cyberware-specific Essence hole(s).

So if you had a 1.0 Essence hole noted next to your cyberware subtotal you only need to worry about changing your Orange values (ie. the stats on your sheet) if your new implant exceeded 1.0 Essence. If it was only 0.8 Essence you'd just adjust the Essence hole value to notation "0.2 Essence hole" and leave all the Orange values where they stood.

Before you jump at that read this post through.

QUOTE
All you've done by creating the new specific Essence hole is to produce an extra step whereby if the new Orange value is less than or equal to the old orange value plus the "Essence hole" value your Essence doesn't change. But you're still adding and subtracting the same amount of numbers at that point when you don't change the Essence value.

And then of course if you do change the Essence value it's actually a lot more math because the only information you've gained by doing the required "Essence hole" subtraction is the difference in that Orange subtotal - which you then have to add back into that subtotal exactly as if you'd just added it in from the beginning.

This is incorrect because of the point I made above and the one I'm going to reiterate next. The math you do (only when a new implant exceeds the existing Essence hole) is exactly the same as you would to recalculate your Orange values normally (ie. recalculate your Orange #2 and #3 to yield a new Orange #4 and derive from that an Orange #6).

The idea was that you save yourself from recalculating anything until the cyber or bio Essence hole was filled.

QUOTE
Or to make a concrete example:
Let's say that you've got a cyberlimb (Essence cost 1) and a Synaptic Booster (Essence Cost .5). Now, you have an Essence of 4.75 - because the Bioware costs half Essence.

Now we remove the Cyberlimb (freeing up an Essence "hole" of 1). Our Essence is still 4.75 of course because Essence doesn't recuperate on its own.

So now we put in some more cyberware, let's say Muscle Replacement 2. This has a cost of 2, and according to the p. 128 version we're looking at subtracting 1 from 2 and then adding the result back to 1(!) See, the hole is subtracted from the cost, but the total cost includes the hole, so the subtraction cancels out in the end. You end up having a Cyberware Essence cost of 2 regardless of whether you were keeping track of the "Cyberware Essence hole" - it's just that this way you subtract the hole value from the cost of your new implants before adding the remainder to the hole value.

This is only true if you ignore what my reply to the first time you made this point on page 3 of this thread. As I told you in my earlier response: the edited version that saw print is misleading and that for clarity the end of the third sentence of the first paragraph should have read
QUOTE
"(...)simply deduct the Essence hole from the new implant’s Essence cost before applying it to your [cyberware or bioware] (sub)total."

(I also noted it did state so in earlier drafts)

What this does is make your Yellow #1 and #2 "credits" towards Orange #2 and #3 and there is no Yellow #3 at all.

If you're not willing to accept that there's no point in continuing this discussion.

QUOTE
That's why people are so incredulous. Putting aside the weird implications or the botched prepositions, the entire process as intended is a waste of time. It factors out at the end of the day and yet involves a couple of extra math steps for nothing.

I hope that last post clarifies, once again, what I meant, because I really don't have the inclination to repeat it.

QUOTE
So when you say that people found this "easier" - other people with math backgrounds are actually offended. It literally can't be any easier to do it this way, because it's in all ways less work to not do it.

I'll repeat what I said above and which Doc Funk obviously missed.

I believe the reason this calculation was preferred is because you don't even touch your "Orange values" until the cyberware and bioware specific Essence holes are filled and exceeded. It makes filling the Essence holes a "sideboard" mechanic rather than forcing the recalculation every time.

So to use your example above:
Let's say that you've got a cyberlimb (Essence cost 1) and a Synaptic Booster (Essence Cost .5). Now, you have an Essence of 4.75 - because the Bioware costs half Essence.

Now we remove the Cyberlimb (freeing up an Essence "hole" of 1 to your cyberware subtotal). You still have a cyberware subtotal of 1 (including an Essence hole of 1) and a Bioware subtotal of 0.5 which would be halved to give you 0.25 if you actually needed to recalculate Essence, which you don't (you already now it doesn't grow back).

So now we put in some more cyberware, let's say Muscle Replacement 2. This has a cost of 2, and according to what I've now told you twice, this exceeds the Essence hole of the cyberware subtotal by a full 1 point and calls for recalculation of your subtotals (and hence your Essence). So you simply do the standard calculation: new cyberware subtotal of 2 + 2/bioware subtotal of 0.5/2 = 2.25 deducted from your Essence lowering it from 4.75 to 3.75. (This part of the process works as described in the core rules and every other variation posted here. The thing that would make the intended rule is that you save yourself from having to do this until the specific Essence hole is plugged. Note that for convenience we're skipping the part where you have to add together 8-9 implants to calculate your cyberware/bioware subtotals. Having a credit on the side saves you from calculating that: you know how much you can plug in for "free" without having to recalculate things until you exceed that credit (at which point you use the normal/BBB rule to calculate your subtotals and essence loss again).

Just to bear this out: If instead of Muscle Replacement 2, you had installed an higher-grade cyberlimb with a 0.9 Essence cost, no recalculations would be necessary at all. You would just subtract 0.9 from 1.0 Essence hole "credit" listed beside your cyberware subtotal and change the notation to a 0.1 Essence hole - meaning you don't touch your "Orange values" (ie. the Essence stats on the sheet) at all and you don't have to add together all your cyber implants and all your bio implants and then perform the subtotal recalculations, and the total essence loss calculation.

I acknowledge (again) that at some point we botched it in editing by dropping the "cyberware and bioware sub" before the "total" (see my point on the intended writeup above). But this "sideboard" is how the rule was intended to work and why some people thought it was easier (I reiterate that I have not expressed a personal opinion either way).

To reiterate: Instead of recalculating your "Orange values" for every single implant you add, you "run a sideboard" with your Yellow values (#1 and #2 only) and save yourself the hassle of calculating the cyberware and bioware subtotals, recalculating total essence loss, and then comparing with your standing value to see if you have actually lost Essence.

With this mechanic you only had to do that once the cyberware or bioware Essence hole/"credit" ("sideboard" if you will) was exhausted/filled.

QUOTE
You're asking people to subtract C and then add the same C immediately afterwards in the middle of their equation. It's puzzling. People think you aren't being straight with them.

I hope this last post clarifies things because I really have no interest in revisiting it. Your opinions and any we get via email will be taken into consideration when we go to errata.

That's it from me. I've got other work to do.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
So, the only reason Bioindex was re-introduced is that people wanted to save calculations when explanting more than they implant?

QUOTE (Synner)
I now see no point in continuing this discussion, since this is the second time someone has questioned my assertions about the feedback from playtesting as the main reason for the printed rule.

Nasty someone.

So that would be a 'yes' to my question... thanks.

QUOTE (Synner)
Contrary to some opinions, we don't make changes to author's drafts that have already undergone multiple revisions at our request, for the fun of it.

To clarify, most people here are used to Bioindex and the fact that you have to make the choice of Bioware or Cyberware before you reduce your Essence.
The actual cause of the outcry would be that such rule was snuck in through the back-door, when the main rules seemed to imply otherwise.
Mr. Unpronounceable
sorry, but this still looks like using differential equations to 'simplify' algebra.

I don't see how "recalculate essence loss per the BBB, if this results in less essence loss than before, essence does not increase" is too complicated.
Catharz Godfoot
Not that this is used in the BBB or Augmentation, but because I found that keeping track of the dynamic 'flipping' of Cyber and Bio costs, I use the following house rule:

1) Every character starts with 8 Essence.
2) Magic is limited to Essence -2.
3) Essence losses (the 'hole') for bio and cyber wares are added together, no halving anything.

It's a bit of a power up to pure-bio or pure-cyber characters, because the equivalence is always to that of a BBB character with 50% cyber and 50% bio. IMO that's fine because 'blended' cyber and bio characters tend to be more powerful anyway.


Initially I was going to multiply all 'ware costs by 75%, but that's just too much of a pain in the ass. I know this is dumbing things down, but the point is to play cyberpunk not 'accountants and algorithms'.
PlatonicPimp
The best shadowrunner ever was the chromed accountant.
Mr. Unpronounceable
Thinking about it some more...

it's even worse than I thought:

You take 1 point of cyber, and 1 point of bioware. Total essence loss = 1.5.

You get it all removed. Now one of the essence holes must be 1 point, while the other is .5 points, and you must record which is which...even though the rules never define any kind of precedence.

Leaving it up to the GM's whim whether a new 1 essence implant reduces your essence by 0 or .5 is just sloppy design.
Rotbart van Dainig
Both holes are 1 point.

It's not a 'Essence' Hole... it's a Cyberware hole or a Bioware hole.
Ravor
Are you sure, although I don't like the new ruling, my understanding is that one hole would be 1.0 and the other would be 0.5, and which one is which would be up to the Player since it's the Player who is writing the value on the sheet.
Rotbart van Dainig
The 0,5 + 1 part comes after that.
Dashifen
I'm with Rotbart on this one; the way I read it, the hole is still 1.0 essence. The 50% modification of the lower essence sub-total takes place after you sum the cost of enhancements and the "size" of the essence hole.
Ravor
*Shrugs* If that is the case then the new ruling is even more broken than I thought it was, but since I'm happily ignoring it anyways, oh well. cyber.gif
hyzmarca
The result is that you essentially have three essence loss stats, your cyber-index, your bio-index, and your other essence loss. None of these stats ever decrease, but the lower of bio-index or cyber-index is halved before subtracting the total from base Essence and each has its own hole.

If you look at it this way, the bookkeeping is rather simple.

The only consequences of this are that it is impossible to exchange bioware for cyberware or vica-versa (meaning that if you invest in cheap and readily available cyberware with the intent that you upgrade to bioware later, you're screwed) and that victims of Essence Drain have a big useless hole (which completely screws vampire bite and wendigo chew addicts).
Mr. Unpronounceable
Hmm..I guess...

But I still don't like the fact that if a sammie starts in the gutter (i.e. can only afford cyber at chargen) then he's destined to stay there (since upgrading to prime-runner bioware will kill him)

And noone's really explained what was wrong with the BBB way.
Rotbart van Dainig
The sucker-inflicted Essence Hole can be recovered by Cellular Repair, though.
hyzmarca
The new way requires more recordskeeping but the BBB way requires more basic math due to the the fact that you'll be encountering the half the lower value rule as you remove things.
Ravor
However Cellular Repair is much like the fabled "uber Mage", on paper it looks good, but it's not something that is ever going to come up in an actual campaign.
mfb
having played with the uber mage, and as i'm currently playing a character who's eventually going to need gene therapy to fix what's wrong with her, i respectfully disagree.
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