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BattleJester
I hope I don't repeat anything already answered on the forums. With Shadowrunrpg.com down, I thought maybe I could get answers here.

I don't see the answer to this question in the rules anywhere. Can you use a foci of a rating higher than your own Magic rating?

Can an Adept reaspect himself, choosing different Powers? Can a mage unlearn spells and learn different ones instead?

Does the Reflex Recorder, p. 340, stack with the Adept Power Improved Ability, p.187?

Can you use a pair of gloves, brass knuckles, a ring, or possibly your own fists as a Weapon Focus for Unarmed Combat?

Would the Adept Powers "Killing Hands" and "Critical Strike" be compatible with Brass Knuckles, Bone Lacing, a Cyber Hand, or the Bone Density Augmentation?

Can you specialize in Dodging Ranged or Melee Attacks with Gymnastics since you can use it like the Dodge skill?

When Enhanced Articulation, SR4 p. 338, refers to Physical Skills, does it mean the skills soley in the Physical Active Skill list OR does it also include other skills, like Dodge?

When Synthacardium, SR4 p.339, refers to Athletic Tests, does it mean those skills in the Athletics skill group?

If you are using a Weapon Focus, do you only get to use the bonus dice for attacking OR any time you are using the weapon (for instance, when parrying)?

Am I correct in saying that Magic and Resonance don't have maximums, per se? For instance, I could have a Mage with 16 Magic if they had an Initiation Grade of 10.

If you are a Mystic Adept, do you have to Allocate any of your points toward Spellcasting or Adept Powers? For Instance, if I had a character with Magic 4, could I spend all 4 points on Adept Powers? If I did so, could I still use skills, such as Spellcasting or Counterspelling, just using the skill as my dice pool since my Magic would be at 0?

On p. 79 (SR4), it says that Mentor Spirit can be purchased by a Magician or Mystic Adept, but on p. 192, it says it can be purchased by ANY Awakened character. Which one is correct?
James McMurray
QUOTE
Can an Adept reaspect himself, choosing different Powers? Can a mage unlearn spells and learn different ones instead?


No.

QUOTE
Does the Reflex Recorder, p. 340, stack with the Adept Power Improved Ability, p.187?


Yes, but you may have to worry about hitting the cap.

QUOTE
Can you use a pair of gloves, brass knuckles, a ring, or possibly your own fists as a Weapon Focus for Unarmed Combat?


Definitely yes on all but the fists. Not sure about the fists, but I probably wouldn't allow it.

QUOTE
Would the Adept Powers "Killing Hands" and "Critical Strike" be compatible with Brass Knuckles, Bone Lacing, a Cyber Hand, or the Bone Density Augmentation?


Anything that enhances an unarmed strike would be compatible. Anything that deals damage itself would not.

QUOTE
Can you specialize in Dodging Ranged or Melee Attacks with Gymnastics since you can use it like the Dodge skill?


I'd say no. If you allow it, you may as well toss Dodge out the window because there's no reason for it to exist.

QUOTE
When Enhanced Articulation, SR4 p. 338, refers to Physical Skills, does it mean the skills soley in the Physical Active Skill list OR does it also include other skills, like Dodge?


Only Physical Active skills.

QUOTE
When Synthacardium, SR4 p.339, refers to Athletic Tests, does it mean those skills in the Athletics skill group?


Yep.

QUOTE
If you are using a Weapon Focus, do you only get to use the bonus dice for attacking OR any time you are using the weapon (for instance, when parrying)?


Only with attacks.

QUOTE
Am I correct in saying that Magic and Resonance don't have maximums, per se? For instance, I could have a Mage with 16 Magic if they had an Initiation Grade of 10.


The max is there, but you can increase it via initiation (or whatever the Resonance version of initiation is called).

QUOTE
If you are a Mystic Adept, do you have to Allocate any of your points toward Spellcasting or Adept Powers? For Instance, if I had a character with Magic 4, could I spend all 4 points on Adept Powers? If I did so, could I still use skills, such as Spellcasting or Counterspelling, just using the skill as my dice pool since my Magic would be at 0?


You have to put at least one point towards each.

QUOTE
On p. 79 (SR4), it says that Mentor Spirit can be purchased by a Magician or Mystic Adept, but on p. 192, it says it can be purchased by ANY Awakened character. Which one is correct?


I'd allow it for any awakened character, since the benefits for a non-caster / summoner are pretty small.
farrenj
QUOTE (BattleJester)
I don't see the answer to this question in the rules anywhere. Can you use a foci of a rating higher than your own Magic rating?


I believe so. Though I also believe there is a limit on the maximum force of all bonded foci. Five times magic I believe.

QUOTE
Can an Adept reaspect himself, choosing different Powers? Can a mage unlearn spells and learn different ones instead?


This isn't mentioned anywhere in the raw. The closest you can get is having an adept lose a power point from cyber/bioware, initiating, and increasing his magic score again to pick a new power. But why go through all that trouble?

QUOTE
Does the Reflex Recorder, p. 340, stack with the Adept Power Improved Ability, p.187?


Yes, but keep in mind augmented maximums.

QUOTE
Can you use a pair of gloves, brass knuckles, a ring, or possibly your own fists as a Weapon Focus for Unarmed Combat?


The brass knuckles and gloves, yes. The ring and your own hands, no. You have to bond a physical weapon to yourself. The ring could serve as another kind of focus though.

QUOTE
If you are using a Weapon Focus, do you only get to use the bonus dice for attacking OR any time you are using the weapon (for instance, when parrying)?


Only when attacking with the weapon focus.

QUOTE
Am I correct in saying that Magic and Resonance don't have maximums, per se? For instance, I could have a Mage with 16 Magic if they had an Initiation Grade of 10.


Yes.

QUOTE
If you are a Mystic Adept, do you have to Allocate any of your points toward Spellcasting or Adept Powers? For Instance, if I had a character with Magic 4, could I spend all 4 points on Adept Powers? If I did so, could I still use skills, such as Spellcasting or Counterspelling, just using the skill as my dice pool since my Magic would be at 0?


Yes and no. You could allocate all your magic to power points, but you wouldn't be able to pick up counterspelling or spellcasting as you cannot cast spells.

QUOTE
On p. 79 (SR4), it says that Mentor Spirit can be purchased by a Magician or Mystic Adept, but on p. 192, it says it can be purchased by ANY Awakened character. Which one is correct?


I'm inclined to go with the pg. 79 restriction. Mentor spirits are clearly intended as a boon to spellcasters.
Critias
Everyone else handled the "by the rules" answers -- but just as a quickie, here. In reference to mages unlearning spells and getting new ones, and Adepts dropping powers to pick up something new? From the sounds of things, you might be in kind of a young or new campaign, perhaps with players that aren't terribly experienced. In that case, if you have someone trying the game out for the first time and they realize that they're just plain not enjoying their character, or their powers aren't working nearly the way they thought they would, I'd go ahead and let them swap things out.

There's no point in making someone new to the magic rules suffer through the game, or create a whole new character, if there's something they can just tweak a little bit instead. You could work such a "relearning" process into the game, too, and maybe stretch it out for a few adventures, hook them up with a new contact, or make them to get a special item in order for it to work.

Personally, I'd rather see someone's Adept jump through a few hoops to swap out Missile Parry (that they thought would be really cool) for Critical Strike (which IS really cool), than see them have to scrap the character, or just not like playing in the game. Your mileage may vary.
Marwynn
I agree with that. Don't let them use it as kind of "I get any spell for free" ability, but letting them swap spells from what they think are cool in the book to what is practical is fine for when they're first starting.

As for "fists" being weapon focii, maybe if they're cyberhands specially crafted for it. But that'll be up to your GM, typically they're weapons.

Dodge is under the Combat skills tab though, so no Synthcardium bonus for it. As for Gymnastics specializing into that... I'd say no. It won't really replace Dodge as you can use Dodge on the defense where Gymnastics can't be (only used on full defense) but it's not exactly meant to get out of the way of bullets or punches. It just has that side benefit if you devote your full attention to it.

You can however specialize into Riverdancing if you felt like it. Huh!

I thought the errata covered the Magician/Mystic Adept only having access to Mentor Spirit?
PlatonicPimp
Wait, weapon foci don't add dice when parrying with said weapon? I'm gonna need a page reference on that.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Critias)
In reference to mages unlearning spells and getting new ones, and Adepts dropping powers to pick up something new? From the sounds of things, you might be in kind of a young or new campaign, perhaps with players that aren't terribly experienced. In that case, if you have someone trying the game out for the first time and they realize that they're just plain not enjoying their character, or their powers aren't working nearly the way they thought they would, I'd go ahead and let them swap things out.

Implementing general karma refunds works, too... as long as people don't get crazy.
Critias
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
Wait, weapon foci don't add dice when parrying with said weapon? I'm gonna need a page reference on that.

SR4 main book, p. 191, specifically and repeatedly uses only the word "attacks" when referring to what weapon foci boost. Given their expense (both in terms of karma and nuyen), the difficulty that comes with trying to conceal and/or get around with a cool magic sword, yadda yadda yadda, I don't think it'd be unreasonable for a GM to house rule it so that they added dice to every test made with the weapon... but, as written, just attacks.
deek
I've considered allowing Adepts to reallocate up to a point along with their initiation...but I would still want to monitor that strictly as I don't want a player thinking they can just swap out powers all the time...but if they really NEED to, then that is when I would think it could be appropriate.
James McMurray
QUOTE (farrenj)
The brass knuckles and gloves, yes. The ring and your own hands, no. You have to bond a physical weapon to yourself. The ring could serve as another kind of focus though.

Why wouldn't the ring work? It's got the same relation to attacking with your hand as a pair of gloves, maybe even more if it's a big knobby ring with a firmly mounted diamond jutting out.
farrenj
QUOTE (James McMurray)
QUOTE (farrenj @ Aug 9 2007, 09:28 AM)
The brass knuckles and gloves, yes. The ring and your own hands, no. You have to bond a physical weapon to yourself. The ring could serve as another kind of focus though.

Why wouldn't the ring work? It's got the same relation to attacking with your hand as a pair of gloves, maybe even more if it's a big knobby ring with a firmly mounted diamond jutting out.

I suppose if it's more of a diamond sharp knife on a band that happens to be around your finger, then fine. But a ring, as most of us know it, is not a weapon. Sure, we've all been hit by someone with a ring, and it hurts, but it's not a weapon.
James McMurray
Then why is glove ok but ring not?
farrenj
Gloves seem to play the role of a weapon and are a physical object. Perhaps it's my own personal bias that foci should be objects that in some way reflect thier intended purpose because magic tends to prefer appropriate symbolism and acts. Gloves are an appropriate physical object for a weapon focus, we often think of using gloves when we hit people. A ring is not. Besides, gloves can be altered to have all sorts of nasty impact on people it hits.
Ancient History
Anything that could conceivably used as a hand weapon can be enchanted as a weapon focus. Some are more useful or easy to use than others. Generally speaking, a single ring on your finger could be enchanted as a weapon focus, but actually using it to damage an opponent can be difficult-a ring of sufficient size, weight, and construction would either be unwieldy or the equivelent of brass knuckles/hardliner gloves anyway.

So yes, you can enchant your big ol' college pinky ring, but just because it's enchanted doesn't mean you'll be leaving the university emblem embedded in a lot of foreheads. You can easily break a finger punching someone with a ring on, or even with brass knuckles, if you do it incorrectly.
James McMurray
QUOTE (farrenj)
Gloves seem to play the role of a weapon and are a physical object. Perhaps it's my own personal bias that foci should be objects that in some way reflect thier intended purpose because magic tends to prefer appropriate symbolism and acts. Gloves are an appropriate physical object for a weapon focus, we often think of using gloves when we hit people. A ring is not. Besides, gloves can be altered to have all sorts of nasty impact on people it hits.

We'll just have to disagree then. Any setup that allows someone's cold weather garments to be enchanted as a weapon focus should, IMO, also apply to diamond and steel bands worn on the hand and capable of inflicting painful injuries.
James McMurray
QUOTE (Ancient History)
You can easily break a finger punching someone with a ring on, or even with brass knuckles, if you do it incorrectly.

True, but critical glitches are dangerous no matter what weapon you're wielding. smile.gif
farrenj
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Aug 9 2007, 11:08 AM)
QUOTE (farrenj @ Aug 9 2007, 10:49 AM)
Gloves seem to play the role of a weapon and are a physical object. Perhaps it's my own personal bias that foci should be objects that in some way reflect thier intended purpose because magic tends to prefer appropriate symbolism and acts. Gloves are an appropriate physical object for a weapon focus, we often think of using gloves when we hit people. A ring is not. Besides, gloves can be altered to have all sorts of nasty impact on people it hits.

We'll just have to disagree then. Any setup that allows someone's cold weather garments to be enchanted as a weapon focus should, IMO, also apply to diamond and steel bands worn on the hand and capable of inflicting painful injuries.

I think the difference here is in the image of gloves. I wasn't thinking of cold weather mittens. I was thinking of hardliner gloves. Again, the concept is that it's a weapon. I would say that thin gloves that aren't designed with fighting in mind fall into the ring category.

Edit: Of course, agreeing to disagree will probably be the wise choice. smile.gif
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (James McMurray)
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Aug 9 2007, 10:51 AM)
You can easily break a finger punching someone with a ring on, or even with brass knuckles, if you do it incorrectly.

True, but critical glitches are dangerous no matter what weapon you're wielding. smile.gif

You can easily break your hand punching someone, if you do it incorrectly.
BattleJester
QUOTE
QUOTE

Can you specialize in Dodging Ranged or Melee Attacks with Gymnastics since you can use it like the Dodge skill?


I'd say no. If you allow it, you may as well toss Dodge out the window because there's no reason for it to exist.


The only reason I asked this is because of the FAQ on shadowrunrpg.com which stated that you could defend yourself using Reaction + Gymnastics when it clarified what Gymnastic Dodge was. Of course I cannot quote it as the site is down.
James McMurray
You can defend with Gymnastic Dodge, but Gymnastics has no dodge-oriented specialties listed. I bounce back and forth between wondering if they left them off on purpose, left them off on accident, or couldn't decide whether just to dump dodge altogether.
PlatonicPimp
As I read the rules, Gymnastics can only be used as a dodge skill against ranged attacks. Melee skills can only be used as a defense against melee attacks. Dodge is the only skill that can always be used as a defense.
James McMurray
QUOTE (PlatonicPimp)
As I read the rules, Gymnastics can only be used as a dodge skill against ranged attacks. Melee skills can only be used as a defense against melee attacks. Dodge is the only skill that can always be used as a defense.

You may want to reread the rules. smile.gif

QUOTE
Gymnastics Dodge: Characters skilled in Gymnastics can
spend their action fl ipping, rolling, cartwheeling, etc. out of
danger, and may add Gymnastics skill to their dice pool against
either ranged or melee attacks.


Although, you have to full dodge to perform a gymnastics dodge, so can't just automatically gymnastics dodge every melee attack that comes at you.
streetangelj
I would also agree that gloves must be built for fighting to be used as weapon foci, cyberhands and -weapons (while rare) are also a possibility, but I might consider allowing your actual fists as foci if they are magically tatooed (can't find a page reference, but seen it in the fluff. Can you help me here Frank?).

I also don't see any cap on Magic or Resonance (or edge for that matter- scary). Is there one by RAW, beyond that imposed by creation rules?

As far as the Gymnastic Dodge goes, remember that using a skill is a complex action and I'd sayyou must have a lot of room to use this option, making Dodge an equally viable option.
Fortune
Edge is capped at 6 (7 for humans) + 1 with the Lucky Quality.
Ancient History
A magician cannot bind more foci than her Magic attribute (p.191, SR4), and the total Force of all bonded foci cannot exceed five times the character's Magic attribute (p.85, SR4).

So a character with Magic 2 can have one Force 10 focus, or two foci with Force summing up to 10.

Magic/Resonance is only capped by Initiation/Submergence and Essence - i.e. the natural maximum is 6 + 1 per grade of initiation (p.73, SR4), and Essence loss will lower Magic/Resonance and the maximum for that attribute (p.62, SR4).

So a 2nd Grade Initiate with Essence 3.75 would have a maximum Magic attribute of 6 - 3 + 2 = 5.

And no, you cannot enchant your hands as weapon foci, even if you tattoo them. Referring to the FAQ:
QUOTE
Can you enchant cyberware and bioware?

You can enchant cyberware, but this must be done before it is implanted, and should be carefully weighed before the gamemaster approves it. Such a focus would be considered Mundane Telesma (see pp. 83-84, Street Magic).

Bioware may not be enchanted, as it is a living material.

Your hands count as living material too. So no enchanting.
Fortune
QUOTE (Ancient History)
Your hands count as living material too. So no enchanting.

Damn! There goes those authentic Magic Fingers. frown.gif
streetangelj
But then what about the Yakuza Tatoo Foci (usually Sustanining) from the fluff?

And like I said, I don't see RAW limits on those attributes except in the creation stage, these nothing stating a limit in that section. CORRECTION: Magic and Resonance is limited to 6+Grade/Submersion in the Karma section, but I don't see any limits on Grade/Submersion anywhere. There does not apper to be any limit to Edge other than Karma cost.
Fortune
QUOTE (streetangelj)
But then what about the Yakuza Tatoo Foci (usually Sustanining) from the fluff?

Tattoo Magic is a variation of the Quickening Metamagic.
Fortune
QUOTE (streetangelj)
There does not apper to be any limit to Edge other than Karma cost.

Other than the (pretty much global) Attribute cap, which as I stated above is 6 (7 for Humans), or 7 and 8 respectively if the character has the Lucky Quality.

Other than Magic and Resonance, no Attribute can be purchased up past the natural Attribute limit. There are ways to augment that limit with some Attributes, but Edge is not one of them, and you are therefore stuck with the maximums listed above.
Ancient History
QUOTE (streetangelj @ Aug 10 2007, 12:11 AM)
But then what about the Yakuza Tatoo Foci (usually Sustanining) from the fluff?

Quickening materials in Street Magic. See relevant history here.

QUOTE
And like I said, I don't see RAW limits on those attributes except in the creation stage, these nothing stating a limit in that section. CORRECTION: Magic and Resonance is limited to 6+Grade/Submersion in the Karma section, but I don't see any limits on Grade/Submersion anywhere. There does not apper to be any limit to Edge other than Karma cost.

There are no limitations on the number of times that a metahuman may submerge/initiate.

Check p.73, the metatype maximum for Edge is 6 (7 for humans). That's a hard limit, not just at chargen.

[/edit] Scoop-ed.
Fortune
QUOTE (Ancient History)
Scoop-ed.

Twice! biggrin.gif wink.gif
Ancient History
Yeah, but I got a page reference and a link!
streetangelj
Thanks for clearing the tatoo thing up. But you can't buy your stats above the (racial modified) 6 or 7-8 (with the quality and the genetech) anymore? That's a major departure fom all previous editions; sure it got expensive, but it was possible.
Demerzel
QUOTE (Fortune)
There are ways to augment that limit with some Attributes, but Edge is not one of them, and you are therefore stuck with the maximums listed above.

I'm bummed Augmentation didn't include a Shamrock Enima +1 Edge 0.2 essence.
Ancient History
Look at the table on p.73 - the number to the right of the slash and to the left of the parentheses is the maximum you can raise the attribute with Karma (not counting Exceptional Attribute, which can shift it up one). The number in parentheses is the maximum the attribute can be period - that's using magical spells, adept powers, cyberware, bioware, you name it. You cannot buy it up to that amount with Karma.

Yes, it does present a bit of a difference from previous editions, but the point was never to get a row of solid 9's on your stat block anyway.
Ancient History
QUOTE (Demerzel)
QUOTE (Fortune @ Aug 9 2007, 05:18 PM)
There are ways to augment that limit with some Attributes, but Edge is not one of them, and you are therefore stuck with the maximums listed above.

I'm bummed Augmentation didn't include a Shamrock Enima +1 Edge 0.2 essence.

Heh. There's a story there that might be told one day. But not today.
Fortune
QUOTE (streetangelj)
But you can't buy your stats above the (racial modified) 6 or 7-8 (with the quality and the genetech) anymore? That's a major departure fom all previous editions...

Yes, it is a departure, but not as much as the Skill caps.
streetangelj
Just found the skill caps in the Karma section (I obviously did not comprehend the book as thoroughly as I thought the first time I read it). What the hell are mundanes supposed to do with their Karma in a long-running campaign?
Rotbart van Dainig
A few days ago, I complelty rebuild an former Spanish Legion Electronic Warfare specialist.
Using 600 BP and 775 Karma, there are primary and secondary fields that character still can expand...

Skills cost an insane amount of Karma in SR4.
Ol' Scratch
The most common thing is to simply buy more skills. There's no limit on the number of skills you can have, and there is no limit on the number of Knowledge Skills in the game either.
PlatonicPimp
Diversify, buy edge up to crazy levels, Give it to free spirits in trade.
Fortune
Karma for Cash also works for some people's games.
Critias
QUOTE (streetangelj)
Just found the skill caps in the Karma section (I obviously did not comprehend the book as thoroughly as I thought the first time I read it). What the hell are mundanes supposed to do with their Karma in a long-running campaign?

Be good at everything, instead of great at anything.
deek
QUOTE (streetangelj)
Just found the skill caps in the Karma section (I obviously did not comprehend the book as thoroughly as I thought the first time I read it). What the hell are mundanes supposed to do with their Karma in a long-running campaign?

Depends on what you consider long-running. I've been running a campaign for over a year, every other week (so about 26 sessions) and I give out a base 10 karma per session just for attending (much higher than normal rewards). Average karma rewards per session are 12-14, although I have given out 16 once.

So, with all that karma rewarded, you might think everyone is maxed out...but they are not. There is a hacker/shooter, an adept shooter, a mage and a sammie...the adept is just now hitting his first initiation the mage has learned 1-2 spells and increased his magic and spellcasting. The rest have been working on getting attributes raised, but there is a LOOOOOOONG way to go before anyone even has a 5 in every attribute, let alone skills they started with.

I think you'd be playing a long time, 3-5 years, weekly sessions, before you would run out of things a mundane would want to spend karma on, IMO.
Ophis
I've modded over some characters from old games, and given them karma (lots of karma). The Highest level is about 900 karma (from a very long campaign) and I have reduced the cost of skills somewhat. The street samurai type has run into the problem of what to spend next, at about 850 karma. He's pumped his knowledges and languages but he still has stuff that isn't maxed. Under normal progression rules I expect this to happen around 1000 karma. I will admit that the character in question does have a good diverse range of skills (I encourage this) complete mono focus characters would hit max very early.

edit : - The session times on that much karma would on normal awards (5-6 in my games) are about 140-170 for 850 and 166-200 for 1000. That sounds like a good campaign length to me.
PlatonicPimp
140-170 session? Dear god, I haven't participated in that many sessions over the last 10 years of Role playing. My record for a single campaign is 2 dozen sessions.
Ophis
I'm lucky I end up with very long campaigns. One campaign probably broke 100 is just over a year, but we played that several nights a week.
Zhan Shi
IMO, adepts can have mentor spirits. Otherwise, why would there be a "Shamanic Adept" in Street Magic?
Kyoto Kid
...geez I gotta win the Megabucks so I can quit my job and get into a long running campaign again. The highest Karma character I ever had was my namesake (just over 300), but part of that came from the two Harlequin Karma hauls.

The longest campaign I participated in as a player was in the "advanced" version of the game that should not be mentioned (5 RL years playing weekly back when I was in college the second time).

The longest campaign I ran as a GM was one related to an SF story I was writing at the time that used a heavily houseruled version of FGU's Space Opera (2.5 RL years weekly, sometimes twice weekly - same college timeframe as above).
BattleJester
New Question:

Page 178 of Street Magic, Missile Mastery Power: Do you think that you would need a need skill for each improvised weapon or would one skill cover playing cards, pens, glasses, or anything else that would just do Str/2 damage?
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