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Prime Mover
Manatech a phrase coined in Street Magic in magical terms and slang sidebar. Mentioned under Alchemix entry, "a handful of patented mana-technologies".

Seem to recall statement about it was going to be explained in future, any word on when that might be cleared up or even a hint as to what it alludes too?
Synner
A number of manatech devices will be introduced in Arsenal.
Prime Mover
Thanks a ton for nano second reply hehe!
Ophis
Synner once again pulls an answer out of his Arse in record time. Yet again I want that book!!!!
Demerzel
So you're saying you're impatient to get ahold of Synner's Arse?
Ophis
Yes and I'm comfortable with that fact. wink.gif
Particle_Beam
Okay, now I'm really really curious... You devious people just managed to tell me that Arsenal will be usefull for mage-players too? Oh boy...
Eryk the Red
I've been anxious for Arsenal for a while now, because it'll be the first supplement that's useful to all players.

Though I'm a bit curious what manatech will actually be. Background count generators, perhaps? (Malevolent!)
Prime Mover
Weapons,gear,vehicles,drones,manatech, some rules etc..... Understand why it was put ahead on schedule some now. Lot's of material looking forward to in Arsenal. (Oh who am I fooling been looking forward to all core books lol.) Sounds like Arsenal was a fraggin ton of work though.
otakusensei
Arsenal going to have vehicle and drone rules, or is it basically the new Cannon Companion? Either way you have my wallet.
Jaid
there already is manatech in SR4 canon.

FAB, for example, is manatech. cyberzombies are *definitely* manatech.

it just isn't always specifically labeled as such.
PlatonicPimp
Don't forget the managlow symbiote.
eidolon
...

"Is this going to turn into another big chunk of stuff that I ignore?", he wondered.

FAB is one thing, spell shooting guns are another. One is cool, the other...belongs in a different game.

(Note: Not saying that the upcoming manatech is spell shooting guns, or all bad. Just doomsaying, that's all.)
Kyoto Kid
...eidolon, I'm with you on spell shooting six guns.

However, I do like the concept of Background Count Generators and like the Evil Genius from [i]Time Bandits{/i] would like to "...know more". In past editions, we've seen that Cyberzombies generate a negative magic field.

BTW, what ever happened to the negamage concept (I think it first appeared in SR2)?
Bull
Spell shooting guns are completely doable. smile.gif

Could be kinda fun, though would be a giant pain in the butt to reload. Just need a... Err.. Been a while since I played a mage. Quickened spell, with a trigger condition to activate?

Not really economic, but could be interesting as a concept.

Bull
Wakshaani
ManaTech that we've seen before includes FAB and luminescent fungi, but also "Mana Nets", which were fungi-infested nets that could trap spectral beings (!) and bio-cameras weer at least mentioned, if not statted... basicly using a living bacterium to capture an image of a spirit, rather than standard film.

As long as we don't get Proton Packs and Free Spirit Traps, I'll be alright.
eidolon
Deadlands. Spell shooting six guns belong in Deadlands.

Deadlands is awesome.

I don't remember the negamage. /fail

And stuff like a BG count genrator, etc, yeah. Maybe. Heck, in my last game there was effectively manatech in the form of a spell shield, but it was alien technology. biggrin.gif
Jaid
QUOTE (Bull)
Spell shooting guns are completely doable. smile.gif

Could be kinda fun, though would be a giant pain in the butt to reload. Just need a... Err.. Been a while since I played a mage. Quickened spell, with a trigger condition to activate?

Not really economic, but could be interesting as a concept.

Bull

anchored spell.

if you would rather blow a ton of karma up front than to blow it each time, you could instead use anchoring foci.
Adarael
Mana-based lighters. Permanent physical manipulation spell with a containment spell in the lighter 'shell'. Never run out, never refill. It was doable by the rules in 3rd Edition, anyway.

And my mage has had one for years. Built it himself.

As for background count generators, there are tons of ways to do that. Though I imagine torturing people or systematically abusing your employees would be a lot easier than building a mana-based system. Though that might hurt your productivity.
Unarmed
I had a magician character once that had both a talisman geas and a gesture geas and had to point a gun at people and pull the trigger to cast spells, so spell-shooting guns are totally doable. wink.gif
Demerzel
QUOTE (Unarmed)
I had a magician character once that had both a talisman geas and a gesture geas and had to point a gun at people and pull the trigger to cast spells, so spell-shooting guns are totally doable. wink.gif

You can keep your heal spells to yourself then!
Unarmed
Well, the gun wasn't loaded, but the first time I attempted to heal a member of the team was a pretty good roleplaying moment. =)
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (eidolon)
I don't remember the negamage. /fail

...I'll have to check my SR2 stuff when I get home. It may have appeared in an issue of the old KAGE 'zine.
Ol' Scratch
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was an unofficial addition to the game. The rules were rather convoluted in its attempt to make what is officially a specialist in Counterspelling and Banishing now, but it was a convolution (is that a word?) that was necessary due to how those mechanics worked back then.
Demerzel
It was refered to in "Never Deal With a Dragon". Sam Verner tries to blame negamages for his apparent counterspelling gift while trying to deny he's a magician.
ludomastro
QUOTE (Unarmed)

Well, the gun wasn't loaded, but the first time I attempted to heal a member of the team was a pretty good roleplaying moment. =)


Runner A: Uh, why are you pointing a gun at me?
Runner B: Relax, I'm going to heal you.
Runner A: Uh-huh ....

rotfl.gif

QUOTE (Wakshaani)

As long as we don't get Proton Packs and Free Spirit Traps, I'll be alright.


Who ya gonna call!?! Ghost Runners!
CyberKender
QUOTE (Jaid)
QUOTE (Bull @ Aug 10 2007, 12:53 PM)
Spell shooting guns are completely doable.  smile.gif

Could be kinda fun, though would be a giant pain in the butt to reload.  Just need a...  Err..  Been a while since I played a mage.  Quickened spell, with a trigger condition to activate? 

Not really economic, but could be interesting as a concept.

Bull

anchored spell.

if you would rather blow a ton of karma up front than to blow it each time, you could instead use anchoring foci.

Sterling did it back in 2nd Ed. It was both gross and caused a rules argument.

Take a Tiffani Self-Defender and put it in the hands of an Enchanter. Have him create bullets with Physical Barrier anchored to them, with the trigger effect that the spell activates when the bullet leaves the barrel and travels 1m. According to the rules, this was basically running into a barrier, only it's the barrier running into you. Using those rules for damage, it was gross: Rating of the barrier, moving at bullet velocities...

The argument was that damage shouldn't be applied that way. The barrier has no more mass than the bullet does, and now the force is applied over the area of the barrier, so the damage should be almost nil. *shrug* It never flew, but the idea was interesting.

The problem with using an anchoring foci is that you had better make sure you recover every bullet. Otherwise, expect that ritual sorcery bolt from the blue soon...
Ol' Scratch
Except barriers don't move. The bullet would either 1) create the barrier just outside the gun (if your GM was being nice) and continue on, 2) create the barrier just outside the gun and impact it, or 3) create the barrier and instantly drop it as it moved out of range.

Not the best of ideas no matter how you slice it.
Ancient History
All this excitement over a word!
Jaid
no, you just have the anchoring focus (which should be the gun, not the bullet) launch an indirect spell at the bullet that it fires, for example (alternately, with a fairly specialised detection spell and a laser, you could designate the target with your laser)

just some examples of how you could do it... you wouldn't use the actual bullets (or at least, *i* wouldn't use the actual bullets) as a focus... that would be ridiculously expensive.
streetangelj
The Negamage was in one of the 'zines. I always thought they were neat, which is why I wrote up the NegaPsi Discipline for my Psionic Tradition (elsewhere on this board).
bibliophile20
QUOTE (Bull @ Aug 10 2007, 01:53 PM)
Spell shooting guns are completely doable.  smile.gif

Had a conversation with Matt (the guy that got me into SR in the first place) recently; he was telling me about these very special bullets his mage made...

QUOTE

No, they ended up on the wrong end of an Ares MP-3 and a Savalette Guardian with a full clip of Hell Rounds.

(Savalette makes a lovely heavy pistol that can fire three round bursts. A clip of Hell Rounds has anchored Hell Blast, Toxic Wave, and Ice Storm spells on alternating bullets. Hell-ishly expensive, but Hell-aciously useful in desperate circumstances. Like chasing people willing to set of a 35 megaton strategic nuclear weapon inside a major metroplex.)


My response
QUOTE

O_O

Damn, I want that kind of mojo!

Still, that's a f***ing heavy load of karma to anchor those spells; who did the work? 


QUOTE

S'TarKan did. It also helps to have enchanting 10 and spending a butt-load of nuyen on virgin telesma. The orichalcum inlays on the hollow-points didn't hurt either.

That said, he's only used them a couple of times, and threatened people with them a lot more. There's nothing like pointing a handgun at Ares Mobmaster APC and knowing that if you pull the trigger, the APC, everyone inside it, and the city block behind them will cease to exist.

It's even better if one of your enemies is perceiving astrally and makes the magical theory check to actually understand what they are seeing. Made an entire triad gang back off this one time in Kowloon.
Bull
QUOTE (Jaid)
no, you just have the anchoring focus (which should be the gun, not the bullet) launch an indirect spell at the bullet that it fires, for example (alternately, with a fairly specialised detection spell and a laser, you could designate the target with your laser)

just some examples of how you could do it... you wouldn't use the actual bullets (or at least, *i* wouldn't use the actual bullets) as a focus... that would be ridiculously expensive.

Thanks, Anchored spells is what I was thinking...

And hell, really, wouldn;t even need bullets. Just have an anchored spell fireball/bolt (or lightning, or whatever) or 6 set up with the condition to "fire" when the trigger was pulled and a command word spoken.

Even with an anchoring focus, not really sure how feasible or economic it really is, outside of pure style.

But then again... Style is half the point of Shadowrun.

Hrmmm... Maybe I'll have to read up in STreet Magic for our little Gen Con Mod get together SR4 game. wink.gif

Bull
mfb
if you're going for a pistolero mage, rather than a pistol that slings spells for whoever's holding it, you could just make all of the mage's spells fetish-limited. or, as i did with my sword-saint mage, get a piece of cyberware, and then geas the lost magic point to a talisman (revolver with a custom grip, silver inscriptions on the barrel, etched cylinder). then you fetish-limit your spells (hell, might as well, right?) and take Gunplay as your centering skill.
Ol' Scratch
Fetish limited spells are definitely the way to go. I did much the same thing with a character a while back. He was a Chaos Mage who firmly believed all of his magic worked through technology rather than an extension of his will -- it just took someone with finesse to make them work.

Anyway, I did pretty much what mfb describes. All of his spells were limited to a fetish. His combat spells were tied to his revolver where spinning the barrel to the proper position allowed him to "shoot" a specific spell. His eShades were the base of most of his Detection Spells, his old WWI bomber jacket housed his Armor spell, his 'rocket boots' were linked to Levitate, and so on and so forth. Some were also foci, such as his Power Focus being a "zero-point energy modulator" that he "built" into his belt buckle.

But I'm rambling again. The point is: Take the rules and have fun with them. It's one of the perks of Shadowrun using abstract rules rather than hard and detailed ones. As long as you keep it within the confines of what the spell, focus, rule, whatever encompasses, you pretty much have free reign to describe effects however you like. Which is what makes magic, in particular, so much fun in this game.
Kyoto Kid
...now I'll admit, this techno fetish stuff could actually make playing a mage kind of fun even for someone like me who really doesn't enjoy playing mages.
mfb
the only way i can play a mage is if i theme his magic like that--make it so everything he does is different applications of a single ability.
Draconis
Now I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure you're all barking up the wrong tree. Spellguns my arse, this isn't D&D. I bet you're far more likely to see items that aren't inherently magical but interact with mana. I.e. a PDA like device that will tell you if you're in a background count and how strong it is. Very doable with FAB.

Oh and manastatic is bad enough as is, we most certainly don't need something else that can generate background counts.

Sterling
QUOTE (CyberKender)

Sterling did it back in 2nd Ed. It was both gross and caused a rules argument.

Take a Tiffani Self-Defender and put it in the hands of an Enchanter. Have him create bullets with Physical Barrier anchored to them, with the trigger effect that the spell activates when the bullet leaves the barrel and travels 1m. According to the rules, this was basically running into a barrier, only it's the barrier running into you. Using those rules for damage, it was gross: Rating of the barrier, moving at bullet velocities...

The argument was that damage shouldn't be applied that way. The barrier has no more mass than the bullet does, and now the force is applied over the area of the barrier, so the damage should be almost nil. *shrug* It never flew, but the idea was interesting.

The problem with using an anchoring foci is that you had better make sure you recover every bullet. Otherwise, expect that ritual sorcery bolt from the blue soon...

I believe how I did it was the rule that if you made the spell lock yourself, you could activate it with a thought.

So Feldspar the earth elementalist (I think) would load a spell lock that was basically a very very expensive bullet into the case/cartridge, place it into a clip, and when he fired, he would think 'now'...

And then what you had was a physical (maybe a mana barrier, it's been years) barrier moving at something like 250 meters/turn with a rating of six or so (obviously dependent on the actual size, firing a six meter diameter 'ball' isn't feasible indoors) and it would hit you like a vehicle and do insane damage.

The barrier would break after the impact, and then the tiffany bullet would hit you, which really does add insult to injury.

This was an exercise in what the rules let you do that you shouldn't, and the character was never played. If you rule that a barrier is immobile, that's your game and it renders the point completely moot. I've never seen anything (and I just looked up the spell in SR2 as well as SR4) that indicated the barrier couldn't be moved. Nowadays I can see both sides of the argument, and mobile barriers could be an immense GM headache, but in theory there's nothing saying you couldn't cast the barrier centered on yourself, sustain it, and walk around. You'd have a tough time going through doors (physical) and bouncing off other people (mana), but like I said, there's nothing I found then stating it cannot be moved.

The fun factor that smacks me in the face NOW (and CyberKender called it) is that any time you fired the gun, besides expending more karma, nuyen, and time per shot than simply shooting the person with a more potent gun, the issue is the fact that a spell lock you enchanted would be the biggest 'I DID IT' clue left for the Star's mages to find.

By the book it worked, and by all means anyone can argue how it doesn't work in their games, by their interpretations, etc. It's a done deal, a one-shot (heh) exercise that's long passed.

Manatech is also in SR4 base by how spell formulae are available in digital format. As for what manatech comes out in Arsenal will be interesting, to say the least.

About the negamage, I think I have a copy of it around here somewhere, and I'm pretty sure the basic concept was you didn't exist as far as magic was concerned. Spirits couldn't see you, spells cast on you didn't have any effect, and even area effect spells would fail if you were in the area of effect. Yeah, I found my copy of the rules, and the basic deal is the Negamage was completely impervious/immune/unaffected by magic in any form. Hell, even magical items could lose their power if they came into contact with a Negamage. The bottom of the page indicates it came from Challenge Magazine, #57, if that helps any.
Jaid
SR4 actually has rules related to moving area effect spells. it requires effort on the part of the caster, iirc...
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Draconis)
Oh and manastatic is bad enough as is, we most certainly don't need something else that can generate background counts.

...from a mundane point of view...

...oh yes we do.

Aeon Labs
--Dedicated to a solution to the magical threat through technology
Ancient History
Is this what you really want?
Kyoto Kid
...somewhat similar, though AL has been working more along the Background Count & Void angle.

...of course all details are Classified

Aeon Labs
--Dedicated to a solution to the magical threat through technology
Rotbart van Dainig
So they have a spray canister for highly agressive FAB-III variants?
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
So they have a spray canister for highly agressive FAB-III variants?

...if I said what it was, AL would have to dispatch a cleaning crew to deal with the spill. grinbig.gif

Aeon Labs
--Dedicated to a solution to the magical threat through technology

(...'sides no spoilers since it is part of an upcoming campaign).
Jaid
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
So they have a spray canister for highly agressive FAB-III variants?

...if I said what it was, AL would have to dispatch a cleaning crew to deal with the spill. grinbig.gif

Aeon Labs
--Dedicated to a solution to the magical threat through technology

(...'sides no spoilers since it is part of an upcoming campaign).

shoot everything that's got even the slightest bit of magic until it's dead?
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Jaid)
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Aug 12 2007, 06:49 PM)
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
So they have a spray canister for highly agressive FAB-III variants?

...if I said what it was, AL would have to dispatch a cleaning crew to deal with the spill. grinbig.gif

Aeon Labs
--Dedicated to a solution to the magical threat through technology

(...'sides no spoilers since it is part of an upcoming campaign).

shoot everything that's got even the slightest bit of magic until it's dead?

...nah, way to messy and too many moral/political/philosophical issues involved.

Just looking to give the rest of the world a better chance against a force that violates all known natural laws.

Aeon Labs
--Dedicated to a solution to the magical threat through technology
Particle_Beam
I knew it. By employing the awakeneds with fat pay-checks and giving them all luxuries they need to not become a menace to metahumanity.

How devious, to buy them all with with a good job and giving them insurances. nuyen.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Aug 13 2007, 10:15 AM)
Just looking to give the rest of the world a better chance against a force that violates all known natural laws.

You mean Nadja's large brown nipples, right?
Blink
QUOTE (Prime Mover @ Aug 10 2007, 10:30 AM)
Manatech a phrase coined in Street Magic in magical terms and slang sidebar.  Mentioned under Alchemix entry, "a handful of patented mana-technologies".

  Seem to recall statement about it was going to be explained in future, any word on when that might be cleared up or even a hint as to what it alludes too?

I think they leave those loose threads in place so players can't read the books and know everything. They are great for creating plot devices as well. If the books don't have the rules or information, come up with them yourself.
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