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LintMan
300 cubic metres? He only needs to ward the important areas not the entire building.

How many of us spend 40hr a week doing there job? I know I do at least that. My cellphone is also on all the time for alarm call outs. It wakes me up when I am asleep. I couldn't see why a ward alert would not act the same way.
kzt
As long as your important spaces are less than 300 cubic meters that works fine. That's about 32 ft by 32 ft by 10 feet. How big is your data center? Think an air spirit firing lighting bolts might cause some damage there? Is it Ok if the plant manager gets engulfed by a fire elemental in his office? If you were the security chief would this adversely impact your annual review?

And when your on call, did you ever get called by the police 30 times all around the clock about the burglar alarm going off again and again for no reason? Would you feel as driven to investigate the 28th time as you did the first?
Big D
FWIW, IMHO magical security on most *low-priority* facilities should be limited to spirits and wards, with *any* breaches being report-first-then-kill (and don't forget watchers). The mage(s) on duty should be in a secure facility together with a QRF. This allows for significant resource pooling (one mage can "cover" dozens of low-priority facilities, with camera feeds beamed in over the matrix or even direct fiber lines, together with occasional personal astral patrols through each building).

The more important facilities will of course be much more likely to have dedicated teams, providing 1-2 mages on active duty at all times. Even then, after determining that a breach is in progress, their first action should be to send a couple of watchers to different QRF stations (and possibly pop back in-body to send a radio/matrix alert as well) and get backup.

Unfortunately, while I think this makes more sense, it drastically emphasizes infiltration--if you get detected at all, blasting the folks who just attacked you may buy you seconds, not minutes, to finish the job and get out, and the first responders are likely to be astral mages dropping spirits on you.
Cain
QUOTE (kzt @ Aug 26 2007, 10:08 PM)

Here's an experiment.  Go find a surgeon at the hospital and tell him you'll give him a machine gun and pay him 150k/year to guard your house and abandon seeing patients.  Think he'll take it?  Why or why not?

Most mages are not security/combat mages for similar reasons.  Most of them feel they have better things to do that will pay them more money and be a lot more interesting.  And people won't be actively trying to kill them.

Odd you should mention surgeons. Surgeons are a specialty off the basic MD, all of whom tend to specialize in a specific category.

Granted, not every mage will be interested in security, no matter how lucrative. But there are battlefield doctors in RL: what do you think a MASH unit was? Many mages will specialize, and security will be one big field to specialize in. The US military has enough doctors to staff every combat hospital in the field, every VA facility, every military base, every submarine and ship in our fleets, etc, etc. Not every doctor is interested in a military career, but enough of them are.
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 26 2007, 11:57 PM)
QUOTE
By the By: Dr. Funkelstein, you're off a decimal place. 1 out of a 1000 people is magically active. Only about 1 in 10 of those is a full mage. So, out of the world population, 6.5 million mages is still a lot, but not enough for everyone to have one. Oh, and don't forget, you don't need one, you need three security mages. They have to rest and recuperate just like everyone else. If you want 24hr coverage, you need three for every position.


I'm not the good Doctor, but his comments abour RL MD's Is persuausive.

You might not have a doctor among your circle of friends. You may not ever encounter one in your daily routine. But you can *find* a doctor easily enough, and lots of them at that. If doctors are compariably rare as mages, then finding a mage is no harder than looking in a phone book.

To run a major metropolitan hospital, you could need hundreds or more doctors. A security site might require 5-10 mages. So, finding enough mages to guard a site should be a trivial matter.

I just did some numbers on this, and you can probably expect to actually meet a security mage when you show up for 'work' I reckon.

My home town features 350000 people, of which 1% are magically active 3500, of which not all are mages. But for the sake of argument assume a third are, maybe a bit more. 1200 people.

Now of those let's knock out a further 20% for suitability reasons. maybe they are too old or too young or potentially unstable. (Your sec mages are going to have access to your most secure areas and they can read minds, so they need to be vetted!)

So with some fairly conservative numbers we have 1000 mages that are available in the population to work.

Lets say 2/5ths of those are attracted by the bright lights and big budgets of security work.

Thats 400.

Now we are talking on call security, so to have a guy on site, you need 7 (a point well made). that gives us 60 24/7 on call positions that can be filled. Now lets say that my town (being relatively affluent compared to the national average) has triple the number of mages, but of the triple the concentration of security mages quite a few are doing 'day jobs' like security research. So maybe we have 120 positions that can be filled

There are 3 major defense installations (airbase and two secure complexes covering a huge range of services), 2 major police centers, the parliament house, prime minsters residence, a couple of communications hubs, the national identities registries, the national criminal records system, government secure communications hubs, two intelligence agencies and a bunch of lower grade systems - like the welfare agencies.

Some of those sites are extremely sensitive (defense and the intelligence agencies especially) so I can see half the available mages disappearing between defense, the spooks and the cops (that probably gives you 1-3 mages on duty at all times in each building). Say another 3 positions are doing the PM, that still leaves you with 60 positions to cover the remaining big government departments and large corps. Hence even if the concentration here is only double you still have enough mages to provide a fairly rapid response. And thats only if your shadowrunners are knocking off the child support agency. The defense department has sec mages ready to roxor.

Edit: The flip side of this is if you go to a poor area - like, say, an urban combat zone - there will be exactly no mages anywhere because they will all have been offered cushy government jobs.

And frankly you would be totally mad not to take it. However, because adepts don't do anything that a better trained person cannot do, there will be the usual numbers of them running around.

If you don't believe all the mages are sucked out of poor areas though, there isn't enough mages in my town to do anything beyond secure extremely sensitive installations, so you wouldn't see them!
kzt
I think the 1/3rd is high as the comment from SM is "Less than one percent of the Sixth World’s populace even has the potential to use magic. Of that one percent, only a fraction has the training, focus, or discipline to use it effectively;"*

But anyway, this tends show that only pretty high profile sites will have real magical protection, the rest depending on th magical equivalent of burglar alarms or the cops driving by to look for people hiding in the shrubbery.

* I think Frank pointed out that number in SR1 was 2%, and the number of mages should increase with the mana level, so why they give this number is unclear. If you really should have >2% of the population as real magicians this whole discussion gets kind of pointless.
toturi
Any place that rates corpsec protection or better would stand a good chance of having magical protection.
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (kzt)
I think the 1/3rd is high as the comment from SM is "Less than one percent of the Sixth World’s populace even has the potential to use magic. Of that one percent, only a fraction has the training, focus, or discipline to use it effectively;"*

But anyway, this tends show that only pretty high profile sites will have real magical protection, the rest depending on th magical equivalent of burglar alarms or the cops driving by to look for people hiding in the shrubbery.

* I think Frank pointed out that number in SR1 was 2%, and the number of mages should increase with the mana level, so why they give this number is unclear. If you really should have >2% of the population as real magicians this whole discussion gets kind of pointless.

I was thinking 0.3% of the population are mages. Of course some of them will probably have magic 2-3 and not be that great. That said - big money on the table if you can manage to be 'pretty good'
darthmord
Ya know, much of the last several posts apparently missed my post earlier on...

Area specific demographics rarely line up with global averages.

In my hometown, you won't find any doctors but if you go 15 minutes in one of two directions, you'll find over 50 in the two nearby cities. Go 45 minutes east to the local major city and you'll find several HUNDRED.

Mages will go where their talents can be used. There's no money to be made being a doctor in my hometown. There is however in local cities.

So while the global average for magically active may only be 1%, Seattle may very well have a population where 24% is magically active.

Take for example...Cities A, B, & C all have 100% Blue eyed people while City D has 0%. It's quite legal to say that the average for Blue eyed people is 75%.

That is precisely what is going on. Globally, the magically active account for 1%. Yet a given city may have well above that. Why? Other places won't have mages in them.

From a gameplay perspective... just assume that if the site is important enough for you to knock over magically, it's important enough to have magical opposition. That way, you are prepared for the worst.
Draconis
QUOTE (darthmord)
Ya know, much of the last several posts apparently missed my post earlier on...

Area specific demographics rarely line up with global averages.

In my hometown, you won't find any doctors but if you go 15 minutes in one of two directions, you'll find over 50 in the two nearby cities. Go 45 minutes east to the local major city and you'll find several HUNDRED.

Mages will go where their talents can be used. There's no money to be made being a doctor in my hometown. There is however in local cities.

So while the global average for magically active may only be 1%, Seattle may very well have a population where 24% is magically active.

Take for example...Cities A, B, & C all have 100% Blue eyed people while City D has 0%. It's quite legal to say that the average for Blue eyed people is 75%.

That is precisely what is going on. Globally, the magically active account for 1%. Yet a given city may have well above that. Why? Other places won't have mages in them.

From a gameplay perspective... just assume that if the site is important enough for you to knock over magically, it's important enough to have magical opposition. That way, you are prepared for the worst.

I love it when the mage density topic comes up as it so often does. I'm getting serious Deja Vu, especially with that last post.

Cheesecake anyone?

DTFarstar
Heh, I started this thread and I'm not even really sure how we managed to get onto it, but it's been interesting, so no complaints.


Chris
DTFarstar
Thread dead already? Sorry I'm late posting Zeiner, Physics lab and girlfriend took up alot more time today than I thought it would.


Chris
Wounded Ronin
This is a really good thread. If I ever play SR again I'll re-evaluate how I assign magical security to opposition facilties based on this thread.

I guess I just need to check the SR4 forum more often, as general interest threads like this one often seem to end up here. :/
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