Full Version: Learning to Ghost Dance
In the secrets of power trilogy, dos'nt the protagonist learn the Dance? I thought he used it to disable the nukes. Howling Coyote said he had to travel to the metaplanes, and learn it from his totem, which he did. He performed the ritual, but it also took away his Gift. BTW, what DID happen to Howling Coyote after this story? I can't remember.
Howling Coyote, like so many dancers before him, died in ritual.
Yeah. The trilogy had a convoluted plot, with spider totems running loose, skinny immortal elves from australia working with elves in TT against Lofwyr, a runner whose sister became a wendigo, said sknny elves stealing nukes, etc....made my head spin.
I hope this one did'nt create a spike....but even if it did, I suppose Dunks hybrid spirit/cyberzobie will deal with it.
Hyz, if HC died in the ritual, then why is there fluff about what he was doing in the NAN and such *after* the ritual?
| QUOTE (Zhan Shi) |
| I hope this one did'nt create a spike....but even if it did, I suppose Dunks hybrid spirit/cyberzobie will deal with it. |
In fact, it did. I believe you should check out Harlequin's Back.
| QUOTE (darthmord) |
| Hyz, if HC died in the ritual, then why is there fluff about what he was doing in the NAN and such *after* the ritual? |
He died. Read the third book in the Secrets of Power Trilogy. But even before that book, there were many rumors about what he was doing, including that he was dead. He died fighting Spider with the shadowrunner Twist. So even though he was now for certain dead, not a whoe lot of people knew that. Sure there were the other people at the second (well, third) Ghost Dance, but a lot of them died too. Could well have been lost in the shuffle (pun intended).
Translation: Retcon due to a novel.
hehehe.... suppose it could be. Got dates on which books came first? It never does say in any SB (that I'm aware of at least) that he is for certain alive or dead at any particular time. He dissapeared shortly after the NAN was formed.
Wait... I thought Ehran *was* Howling Coyote...
Am I getting my conspiracies mixed up again?
Am I getting my conspiracies mixed up again?
| QUOTE (Big D) |
| Wait... I thought Ehran *was* Howling Coyote... Am I getting my conspiracies mixed up again? |
Yes, I believe you are.
According to the novels, Howling Coyote was a native american human.
If push comes to shove, and novels contradict game books... I beg you, favor the game books when judging which is 'right'. Please, for all that is holy and right, favor the game books.
Street Magic details the great ghost dance as a blood magic ritual that consumed the lives of large numbers of willing awakened channelers. Howling Coyote as the leader probobly didnt die, because someone has to remain alive to finish the ritual.
| QUOTE (Starmage21) |
| Street Magic details the great ghost dance as a blood magic ritual that consumed the lives of large numbers of willing awakened channelers. Howling Coyote as the leader probobly didnt die, because someone has to remain alive to finish the ritual. |
He didn't die in that Ghost Dance. He died in the other one, which he performed with Twist.
Coudl've sworn I just said that... *wanders off*
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
| Coudl've sworn I just said that... *wanders off* |
You did. Some people weren't listening. It is worth repeating, certainly.
There are three Great Ghost Dances in SR canon.
The first was performed at Wounded Knee on December 29, 1890. It failed miserably due to pre-Awakening mana levels. This corresponds to the real life massacre of 150 Lokota Ghost Dance adherents. (Worlds Without End)
The second ended the NAN War of Independence.
The third was preformed by Howling Coyote and Twist for the purpose of beating up the Spider Totem.
So, short version: Ehran isn't the jerk who almost got us invaded by the Horrors just so he could break up the US and steal a piece for his little magic kingdom?
| QUOTE (Big D) |
| So, short version: Ehran isn't the jerk who almost got us invaded by the Horrors just so he could break up the US and steal a piece for his little magic kingdom? |
No, Thais is the jerk who almost got us invaded by the Horror's because he liked the Native Americans and didn't want to see them slaughtered.
There were far better ways of doing that than claiming half the US and declaring war, then firing off world-changing rituals that plant big "COME EAT OUR BRAINS" signs in neon colors on the metaplanes.
That's sort of like saying that there were better ways to stop the Holocaust than fighting the Nazis.
| QUOTE (Big D) |
| There were far better ways of doing that than claiming half the US and declaring war, then firing off world-changing rituals that plant big "COME EAT OUR BRAINS" signs in neon colors on the metaplanes. |
Maybe not if you are a half-Horror yourself, as Thais is.
Curse you, Godwin!
That analogy might make more sense if you compared it to "there were better ways of stopping the Holocaust than allying with Joseph Stalin to fight the Nazis".
Especially since the extermination order, if I remember the timeline right, came out *after* the GGD. The US government (and corps, which were driving a lot of it) in 2015 was guilty of a bunch of nasty things, but genocide wasn't yet one of them. Apartheid *was*, but that can be beaten without putting out the neon signs for the all-you-can-eat buffet for the Horrors.
Doesn't mean it wasn't an option--it happened, so clearly it was. It just wasn't necessarily a very *smart* option, assuming that it was primarily or even solely an altruistic one in the first place. Which is partly why I'm questioning the altruism, particularly given what came next.
Back to the original topic... I'm still confused on the Ehran/DHC thing... was Ehran really DHC, was there a second "Howling Coyote" that was the subject of the novels everybody's talking about above, or do the novels just flat out contradict the SBs as implied by Adarael?
EDIT: Thais=Ehran?
That analogy might make more sense if you compared it to "there were better ways of stopping the Holocaust than allying with Joseph Stalin to fight the Nazis".
Especially since the extermination order, if I remember the timeline right, came out *after* the GGD. The US government (and corps, which were driving a lot of it) in 2015 was guilty of a bunch of nasty things, but genocide wasn't yet one of them. Apartheid *was*, but that can be beaten without putting out the neon signs for the all-you-can-eat buffet for the Horrors.
Doesn't mean it wasn't an option--it happened, so clearly it was. It just wasn't necessarily a very *smart* option, assuming that it was primarily or even solely an altruistic one in the first place. Which is partly why I'm questioning the altruism, particularly given what came next.
Back to the original topic... I'm still confused on the Ehran/DHC thing... was Ehran really DHC, was there a second "Howling Coyote" that was the subject of the novels everybody's talking about above, or do the novels just flat out contradict the SBs as implied by Adarael?
EDIT: Thais=Ehran?
| QUOTE (Big D @ Aug 27 2007, 04:11 PM) |
| Thais=Ehran? |
Thais = Aina's half-Horror son.
Ahh... does he factor into GGD, or did I just present an easy target there? 
Keep in mind that Thais originally taught the Native Americans the Ghost Dance at Wounded Knee way back in 1890. It just didn't work that time as the Mana level was not high enough then.
eeeeenteresting.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) | ||
You did. Some people weren't listening. It is worth repeating, certainly. There are three Great Ghost Dances in SR canon. The first was performed at Wounded Knee on December 29, 1890. It failed miserably due to pre-Awakening mana levels. This corresponds to the real life massacre of 150 Lokota Ghost Dance adherents. (Worlds Without End) The second ended the NAN War of Independence. The third was preformed by Howling Coyote and Twist for the purpose of beating up the Spider Totem. |
#4 was the German troll kingdom ghost dance for liberty, performed to achieve independence by ... trolls. Many trolls. At least in "Deutschland in den Schatten 2". IIRC it was during the 2040s.
SYL
Ye Gods! 
| QUOTE (Adarael) |
| If push comes to shove, and novels contradict game books... I beg you, favor the game books when judging which is 'right'. Please, for all that is holy and right, favor the game books. |
Most of the time the two can be reconciled with....minimal mental gymnastics
| QUOTE (apple) |
| #4 was the German troll kingdom ghost dance for liberty, performed to achieve independence by ... trolls. Many trolls. At least in "Deutschland in den Schatten 2". IIRC it was during the 2040s. |
Weellll, there's a reason to be glad I don't speak/read German.
Was that before or after the Hawai'ian Kahunas held their Ghost Dance?
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| Was that before or after the Hawai'ian Kahunas held their Ghost Dance? |
I doubt the ritual in House of the Sun can be technically called the Great Ghost Dance, especially if it was based on Hawaiian shamanism. The novel doesn't really give enough info to make that determination, but it's my guess that it was a different but similar ritual.
Was that before or after the Ghost Dance was introduced as the hip dance in clubs all around the world? 
Heh, good one
| QUOTE (Blade @ Aug 27 2007, 12:40 PM) |
| Was that before or after the Ghost Dance was introduced as the hip dance in clubs all around the world? |
Ya no kidding. How many times do you have to use the ultra super power ritual attack before it becomes a cliched joke?
"I'm gonna ghost dance and get that fast food monkey at the Taco Temple because he got my order wrong. No nachos, that dude is toast."
Oh and on a side note about brain hurting novels, Frank and I still laugh at the idea of doing metaplanar quests in the middle of combat.
| QUOTE (Big D) |
| There were far better ways of doing that than claiming half the US and declaring war, then firing off world-changing rituals that plant big "COME EAT OUR BRAINS" signs in neon colors on the metaplanes. |
I have to assume that the folk who actually performed the GGD didn't know they were planting neon signs pointing at Earth saying "EAT ME". That knowledge has been fairly closely held for a long time. In fact, in 2070, after several close calls, it still isn't general knowledge...
| QUOTE (neko128) | ||
I have to assume that the folk who actually performed the GGD didn't know they were planting neon signs pointing at Earth saying "EAT ME". That knowledge has been fairly closely held for a long time. In fact, in 2070, after several close calls, it still isn't general knowledge... |
For some reason, I keep hearing the Governator's voice.
I doubt they did. The point is, if Ehran=DHC, then *he* knew, and led them into it anyways.
Ehran wasn't Daniel Howling Coyote. He was busy being someone else at the time anyway. And Howling Coyote is dead. Ehran isn't. Not in the sense of "faked his death " dead. Dead dead.
O.K., so the old SB I'm vaguely remembering was just throwing out a red herring... next, you'll tell me that Damien Knight isn't David Gavilan.
In Aztlan, at least one of the posters makes clear that they should find out who taught Coyote, and kill him. If Ehran had been Danny, I think the other IEs/GDs would know it. And if they knew it, Ehran would be passing through Lofwyr's bowls, or killed by Harlequin (after all, H was forced to clean up the "spike" mess). But I have not read through all the novels or sourcebooks, so I could be missing something.
| QUOTE (Big D) |
| O.K., so the old SB I'm vaguely remembering was just throwing out a red herring... next, you'll tell me that Damien Knight isn't David Gavilan. |
Which sourcebook are you referring to?
I also would thing that Ehran wouldn't be stupid enough to cause a spike. I mean, he's just as terrified of the Horrors as most of the other immortal elves...
well if it can enable the creation of a second elven state, why not roll out the magical WMD's?
hmm, thinking of the ghost dance that way makes me wonder about how trigger happy the natives are...
hmm, thinking of the ghost dance that way makes me wonder about how trigger happy the natives are...
| QUOTE (NightmareX) | ||
Which sourcebook are you referring to? |
Can't remember offhand; it's one of the older books. Somebody actually posted a pair of side-by-side pictures (in the book), together with the claim that Ehran=DHC. The rest was all Clark Kent/Superman timeline speculation.
| QUOTE (Big D) |
| Can't remember offhand; it's one of the older books. Somebody actually posted a pair of side-by-side pictures (in the book), together with the claim that Ehran=DHC. The rest was all Clark Kent/Superman timeline speculation. |
You're probably thinking about Tir Tairngire Sourcebook. And it wasn't Daniel Howling Coyote, it was Walter Brightwater. Or Bright Water. Damn those native names.
| QUOTE (NightmareX) | ||
I doubt the ritual in House of the Sun can be technically called the Great Ghost Dance, especially if it was based on Hawaiian shamanism. The novel doesn't really give enough info to make that determination, but it's my guess that it was a different but similar ritual. |
I'm pretty sure it was a GGD. Also in that same book, they reveal that the kahunas used a similiar ritual ( read GGD ) to combat the UCAS troops station in Hawai'i. This was followed by the Pacific Fleet being recalled to Hawai'i and the Corps firing a Thor shot across thier bows, so to speak.
So it appears that have been a few GGDs since the Awakening...
Great big magical ritual does not a Great Ghost Dance make.
Ah yes the great ghost dance. It's just a jump to the left, then a step to the right....
'cause that's what it's all about!
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