...ergo, a standard sim module cannot be forced into Hot mode for as stated above, it needs a Hardware not Programming test to do so. So the Matrix Specialist or electronics technician has to physically alter the unit to receive hot sim signals.

...next.

...finally...

...again, emphasis mine. So even if one is in cold VR mode the worst effect will be unconsciousness unless they successfully jack out.

...this would also apply to forcing a BTL on a commlink is not hot Sim rigged.

Also, this:

Finally, this:

So now that we all agree we have our shiny hot-sim modified sim module and have hacked into some sap's commlink and spoofed it into accepting the feed from our sim module, now what?

But still, unless they were accessing their own PAN via DNI it would not work. Granted I assumed going through their Sim module was one aspect of it, but even if you used your own, without the DNI it would fail.

Would you go DNI in public knowing that people could do this to you? Chances are you wouldn't. NPC should think on the same scale. If it is done then it would certainly be noticeable, the victim would know what's being done to him/her, making this not very wise to do to a Fixer or Johnson...

Chances are, since people here thought of it, it can be assumed that it's been pulled since the inception of wireless Matrix and people simply would not place themselves in a position to have that done to them.

Like leaving your own personal information on websites or in public. You know it's not smart considering what people can do with it these days so you know better. Same here, people in 2070 know better and chances are they do not do DNI if they can help it. This is their brain for FFS... they wouldn't just leave it out for people to toy with.

people will do all kinds of dumb things.

people jump off of bridges with a giant elastic attached to their ankles. you think that's good for your health? you think it's not risky?

people drink poison that will, sooner or later, destroy their liver. and they drink lots of it. and they drink it regularly. knowing full well that it has bad effects on their body. it's called alcohol.

people inhale the smoke from a burning substance. does that sound like a brilliant idea to you? i mean, assuming you weren't brought up in a society where cigarettes are common, would you just sit down and think to yourself, "hey, i should inhale some burning hot smoke, that sounds like a great idea! nothing could possibly be unhealthy about that!" and yet, people do it. all the time.

everyone knows that being obese carries with it significant health risks. based on your logic, there aren't any obese people in the world, either.

people have unprotected sex all the time. they know that there's a risk of getting some sort of horrible disease, but they do it anyways. why?

let's face it, people do dumb things all the time, without even thinking about it, and DNI will be no different. it is, quite simply, convenient to have DNI access to stuff. therefore, people will use it (lots of people, most likely) on a regular basis, because we are, on the whole, lazy, and are almost always willing to place our immediate desires in the foreground and push the risks straight into the background or even just out of the picture entirely, refusing to acknowledge it could ever be a problem.

many things will change in the next 60 years. i would be very surprised if one of things was for people to stop doing stupid things, especially in a society that does everything it can to protect us from the fallout of our own stupidity.

That's definitely not the example you want to be using there, Hartbaine. People leave their personal information all over the damned place online, and as a direct result given a small bit of information to work off of I (or you) can find out someone's first and last name, place of residence, phone numbers (listed and unlisted), their shopping habits, a picture, and all sorts of other stuff. But anyway, the point is not that you're actively using cold (or hot) sim in public. Presumably your DNI interface is plugged into your PAN. Usually it's not being used, but since it's connected, a hacker could hack your commlink, turn on your DNI stuff, and black hammer your mom - I mean, point a hot-sim module at you and go to town. Other people, am I right on this one?

Actually, once you have performed the physical modifications on the sim module, you do just flick back and forth. It takes a free action to switch. (SR4, pg.229, Switching Modes, first paragraph)

I'm aware. However the original seemed generalized, like everyone runs Hot Sim. That's not the case. The chances of someone running hot sim & DNI and not be a hacker or an addict is very slim.

But the "Well, I'm just a no namer guy put here for the players to exploit and kick around, no point in me thinking like a rational person. Guess I'll go jump off a bridge, cuz ya know, people do stupid things." mentality seems to be very prevalent.

looks to me like the OP actually *did* take into account that not everyone has hotsim capabilities by default.

offhand, i'd say he was thinking (much like eidolon pointed out) there is a giant thread about the hotsim thing with most people agreeing it is possible to some extent (although the trodebeamofdeath is generally refuted by everyone except Frank) to hook someone else up to your sim module provided you control their PAN.

anyways, it is a bit unfortunate that we don't really have much in the way of rules about psychotropic programs, but i can't say i'm surprised they wanted to wait until one of the advanced books to handle that subject.

I'm sorry Eidolon, I should have guessed that people would still be smarting over the momhammer thread. I want to clear this up, though: I don't care how BTLs work. I don't care about DNI or ASIST or how to hack or what the difference between a trode net and a datajack is.

I want to know what BTLs can do.

I'm not looking to exploit the rules or dig up vaguely worded statements in the BBB. I have seen people on these boards suggest that BTLs can be used offensively by hackers, and I believe they're right: my question is, in what ways can be used? I want to know what creative things you can do with a Personafix BTL, not how to hack grandma's brain with a microwave transmitter the size of a car. Any chance of getting advice on this new and improved topic?

That's an interesting topic. I was thinking of using them them to assist in interrogation (more torture actually) by using mood chips, dream chips and persona-fixes to convince them to tell you what they want to know.

So if you attach a trode net and install a persona-fix of someone submissive and weak willled along with a moodchip of terror (and possibly dream chips of really awful things happening from the victim PoV) this would seem likely to make someone a lot more willing to tell you what the pin code you want without you having to get blood all over the place.

Absolutely. Actually even more so, because in the fluff, BTLs do so much more than Blackhammer. Hell, the BTL maguffins from Dreamchipper fucking taught you skills, and even killed you arbitrarily when turned off.

But the reason that the argument is so intractible and nigh on to 300 posts is because at its heart the rules don't agree with the rules, the fluff doesn't agree with the rules, and the fluff doesn't agree with the fluff. Pretty much the gamemaster has to just make shit up off the top of his head whenever people try to do this because the scriptures are completely contradictory. The rules were written as if you can't do it, but there's no listed technical limitations to any of the equipment that would prevent you from doing it. Here's the condensed version (so you don't have to wade through 300 posts):

In order for a BTL to affect someone, that person needs:

1. A connection to their brain (a DNI).
2. A connection from the DNI to a SIM module that has been hardware modified to run hot.
3. A connection from the DNI or the SIM module to the BTL.

Now, let's go through them one by one, and talk pros and cons:

1. Can I get a DNI against my will?

Con: The rules are written from the assumption that the DNI is "yours" and there aren't any rules for giving DNIs to other people.

Pro: The rules don't actually have any available way to turn off a DNI that someone is connecting to you, and as a physical device there's no reason to belive it doesn't affect others the same as it affects a willing target were it to be trained on them.

Con (for doing it at range): The rules don't have any DNIs with a built-in signal rate higher than 0, so they can't go more than 3m per the rules. Further, trodes specifically say that they use ultrasound for something, which means that they are presumably not amenable to signal alteration (depending of course on what the hell you think "signals" are in Shadowrun).

Pro (for the same thing): The nanoware DNI connections are apparently purely electrical, and specifically don't have to be affixed to the head. They also specifically can be used with a signal booster. Although the clear intent was to increase the range of signal from the user, there's no real reason that they couldn't be used to boost the signal range to the user.

Con: The Fluff specifically says that the paranoid can simply not have a DNI and be completely protected from Matrix attacks (like BTLs or Blackhammers).

Pro: The Fluff specifically includes multiple instances of killer viruses that hopped from completely segregated network to completely segregated network and were able to kill people. This happened in 2029, 2059, and 2065. While they were all done by NPCs, the capability is clearly there. Heck, if we believe the Adventures or Novels actually happened, this has occurred many more times.

Of course, who cares? The fact is that many people have a DNI already. In fact, most people have skinlinked materials on their body from the get-go and you could hack your signal into those items and move on from there, obviating the entire question of whether a DNI can be induced at range. So let's move on to the others:

2. Can someone else train a Hot SIM module on me? If so, how far away can they be?

Con: The rules never once address the possibility of a SIM module attack, and when they mention the idea of a SIM module at all it is always with the possessive.

Pro: The SIM module is a wireless device that doesn't count against subscription limits and simply acts as a signal converter. It can be between your DNI and your brain (like an internal module) or between your DNI and the incoming signal (like an external module). There are no rolls involved, it just works. So from a technical standpoint, there is no topological difference between having "your" hot-modded SIM module sitting on the table broadcasting into your datajack (which definitely works) and "someone else's" SIM module held in a hand (despite the fact that the rules don't seem to consider this as a possibility).

And of course, now you want to know what BTLs are capable of. Oh shit.

BTLs are written from the perspective of people using them on themselves. Like "drugs" the drawbacks are frequently unresisted. Like drugs, this means that BTLs are completely not in line with a lot of attack forms in the game if you consider them from the stanpoint of an attack rather than a freely made bargain.

BTLs already in canon incapacitate or kill the "users" with no resistance roll. BTLs already in canon can brainwah people into believing that they are different people, behaving differently, knowing different things, and even giving people different physical skill-sets.

And of course, there's no actual reason that the "user" has to be "willing". BTLs are just programs, and there are definitely examples in canon of them being used on people againstt their will.

---

Long story short: the Matrix system is a contradictory mess and discussions about what it "says" go into vitriol territory really fast and discussions about what it should say go down just as fast.

-Frank

yeah, you've basically got the concept... but you're helping with the wrong rules (your post is more applicable to the "momhammer" thread)

he's just trying to figure out what happens when you are interrogating someone and you insert a "intense pain whenever you tell a lie" BTL, or something like that. how would you handle what the BTL itself does?

Gelare, I just wanted to apologize for inadvertently turning this thread into something that you weren't even talking about. I misinterpreted your original post and managed to hijack your thread.

Sorry about that.

Yeah, you could allso hit the victim with an onslought of 80's glamrock, but I personally feel that that's too close to momhammer-territory...

sim rig or sim module?

That one I like. You've kidnapped them, so no matter what kind of DNI nonsense everyone else is worrying about, eventually you an strap a commlink to their head and run it in hot-sim. Boot up a Stockholm Syndrome BTL, and you have a prisoner who won't plot against you, and will try to come back to you if someone gets them out. Neato. What else?