No. That would happen when you turn off MBW systems (you pretty much die). It's jsut that while the Skillwire system is on you can paralyze a person for at least a round by making their muscles forget what stuff means. Think newborn.

Now whether or not the person can turn off their skillwires in that situation is DM call, the rules can be read either way fairly easily.

Actually, by pure RAW you can kill anyone with a skillwire system with a command. "overrides all muscle control". You can stop a persons heart if you really want to go by RAW.

One of the developers said that it was supposed to override muscle memory. In which case you can just paralyze them for as long as the Skillwires system is on.

Page reference? Where, exactly, do the rules say that you can turn off any or all cyber in your body at will? It's not on page 32 of Augmentation.

I would also like to add that according to 2 separate freelancers/developers you can control a person with a MBW system.

Wired Reflexes state that you can turn them on or off. MBW's don't.

Rules as written, huh? Care to quote the page reference with that exact rule? I don't recall once reading it anywhere. Your interpretation of various rules and fluff text doesn't equate to the "rules as written." I can point to actual rules, not fluff, that show you have 100% complete and total control of your actions, muscles, and abilities while using skillwires and skillsofts. I'd really like to see this heart attack rule of yours.

SR4 p. 215. Read the definition of a "device" in the sidebar.
SR4 p. 224. The sidebar here also says quite simply that if you don't need the benefits of a device, just turn it off.

Freelancers and developers say lots of stupid things in an unofficial capacity. And even on an official capacity (see the Skillwires fluff description). What's your point?

Skillwires and MBW systems aren't connected to the Matrix. You can turn wirless off, it's fine with me.

The thing is, to use an active soft you must connect your skillwires/MBW system to either your comlink or dataport. If it's conencted to your comlink I can hack it by going through said comlink and your screwed. If it's connected through a dataport you have to slot Activesofts to use them (which slows you down). And if your dataport is connected to your comlink or any wirlessly enabled device I can hack through that.

Will you be able to hack a runner in the middle of a run? Most likely not. Will you be able to hack your average runner at any point in time? Not if they are as paranoid as they should be.

But runners aren't normal or average. Most people keep their Skillwires wirelessly enabled so that they can use them easier. Most people have their MBW systems go through their comlink.

I don't care if I can't hack the person who is ready for it. I care if I can paralyze that wage slave running for the alarm. And the guard who forgot to disconnect today.

And there are always trojan horses. Hack a persons' comlink and upload an agent that is to wait until the person goes to upload an activesoft or connects to the system.

Thought exercise 2.

Character can have Skill X naturally (not using skill softs)
Character can have Skill Y naturally (not using skill softs)
Character can have Skill X using a skillsoft and skill wires

Character wants to do Activity A, using Skill X + Attribute I:
If Skillwires are on and skill soft active, Use Skillsoft + Attribute I
If skillwires are off, what happens?
If skillsoft not active, what happens?
If character wants to do Activity B, using Skill Y + Attribute I, what happens?

According to your arguments so far, in all cases once the skillwires are off, or the skill soft are not active, or the skillwires are hacked, or the skilsofts corrupted, the character falls over and cannot do anything at all.

I fail to find anything in the rules that really support this, the only actual statement in the rules is that in the case of there being both a natural skill and a skillsoft and the system is active that the skillsoft supersedes. This covers one specific scenario, and when you extend this to cover all situations, then I believe you encounter some serious problems in the results you gain.

However, if you want to allow this in your game, go ahead. Your game, Your choice.

...

That's all I have to say in response to that level of voluntary ignorance.

Bzzt. That's your interpretation. Nothing -- nothing -- in the actual rules state that. In fact, there's not a single rule I'm aware of that says you can make an implant do any more than what its bonuses provide (or don't provide if you turn it off). You hack into someone's Skillwires and the only powers you have are 1) turning them off or 2) loading an Activesoft for them. That's the full and complete extent of your abilities. And when you do give them an Activesoft, ALL you're doing is giving them a free skill. Even if loaded and active, that Activesoft doesn't cripple or control a person in any way, shape, or form. And, again, it is even COMPLETELY ignored if they already have the skill at a higher rating.

With Move-By-Wires, all you can do is 1) turn it off or 2) load an Activesoft for them. If you turn it off, all you do is get rid of their Initiative, Reaction, Dodge, and Skillwire bonuses. You don't have any specific control of them, nor do they collapse into a seizure.

That is the rules as written. Show me a rule that says you can manipulate cyberware to go beyond its normal abilities or beyond simply shutting it down.

What are you going on about here? Assuming you mean a Datajack, it's no different regarding Skillwires and Activesofts as using a Commlink or anything else.

You can't do that to either him or anyone else via these methods. That's the point, despite your claims to the contrary.

Once again just... no. Loading a Skillsoft does nothing to you except give you access to that skill. That's it. No taking over your conscious mind and controlling your actions like a remote control. It doesn't pick your targets nor move your body for you. It just temporarily "teaches" the skill to you, and is no different -- thematically or effectively -- between learning it naturally or via a chip. And just like learning a skill naturally, you don't suddenly lose your ability to control your body or your mind.

Read the damn skillwires description. Page 1 in the first post in this thread. I'll repeat it here.

If you control their skillwires system you can paralyze them.

That's why, in a nutshell. (Nice summary, BTW, Jaid.)

And as an aside, this isn't a presidential campaign. There aren't really sides that are for one thing or against another. It's a role playing game, and it works the way we want it to work. So why so antagonistic?

I don't see the need for you to be rude. Especially when you are the one making ludicrous claims.

yes, do read the description. on page 320 of SR4, you will find the following:

translation: the skillwires do not force you to do the skill. if you have the skill at a higher rating, the skillwires may as well not be there at all. it does not control you in any way, shape, or form. you could corrupt someone's activesoft so that it is a lower rating, or even crash it so that it has no rating, but you can't force someone to use it.

so if you upload an activesoft that tells the person to not move, then whenever they don't want to move your activesoft will kick in and make them better at it. but first you have to get them to decide to use their "don't move" skillsoft. good luck with that.

as far as MBW, you couldn't control a person with MBW like a biodrone at all. this is nonsense. biodrones (the ones that you actually can rig in the first place, that is) have MBW... specifically, an *advanced* MBW, with several other systems built in. this MBW must presumably have special hardware attached to allow external sources to control it, because the research team and everyone who worked in any way on the MBW system would have had to be smoking crack while simultaneously injecting themselves with heroine and running half a dozen (different, and conflicting) BTLs in order to actually consider including such hardware into standard MBW systems. MBW != stirrup system, otherwise biodrones would just have MBW. since they don't, we can safely assume that MBW (and indeed, just about all cyberware that is not explicitly designed to operate in other ways) will always accept DNI interface first and foremost, before it even considers checking for external sources of control. this is not going to be something that can be overcome with hacking, it would be the kind of thing that takes tests like hardware, cybertechnology, etc, and direct physical contact with the target, and a bunch of time, to make special modifications to their cyber.

when i say you could do Bad Things™ to someone with MBW, i don't mean making them shoot their friends, i mean making them have seizures. possibly even making those seizures lethal. i wouldn't allow you to make them have these seizures (lethal or otherwise) without such a program, because you are going to have to overwrite the safety protocols that tell the MBW system to stop inducing seizures whenever the expert system isn't around to direct it.

....
I am making the Skillwires system do exactly what it says it does. "Override Muscle Movement."

Doctor Funkenstein went on about skillwires/activesofts teaching you the skill temporarily. His is the "ludicrous" claim. Skillwires override your muscles when yo uuse an activesoft. It's exactly what they say they do.

If skillwires override your muscles then you can paralyze a person with them by making every muscle connected to them contract.

no, you can't. you can make them really really good at not moving, when they want to be good at not moving. that's it. that's what skillwires do. just like how you don't slot a pistols activesoft and then automatically start shooting everything in sight, you just get skilled at shooting everything in sight.

You make the Skillwires system think every command sent to it is to activate the "really good at not moving" activesoft.

The guy goes to activate his Pistosl activesoft and is paralyzed because the system thinks thats what he wants.

Whether or not you can force the execution of an activesoft without the person's choice is debatable. I think you should but I can see the other position. But whether or not you can make an activesoft that paralyzes a person and whether or not you can corrupt the Skillwire software to think any command to the Skillwires is saying to activate said activesoft isn't that debatable.

It is just software.

But that's not hacking the skillwires, that's making a software test to code your own activesoft and then replacing all activesofts on the target's commlink (assuming their not chipping their activesofts) with your custom one. In that scenario, you don't have to hack the skillwires in any way.

Edit: fixed grammar, added quote.

Because, silly, you have to h4XX0rz it, not just hack it.

Duh.

1) You'd have to personally create such an Activesoft as well as get the agreement from the GM for creating a brand new skill to emulate.

2) Even if you did get the GM's permission for your brand new skill, and even if you did code your own Activesoft program, you'd have to find a way to trick the target into using it.

3) Even if you did get them to use it, they could shut it off in a heartbeat.

4) Even if they did use it, it would still have no effect except, possibly, in a test where they have to remain really, really still and want to use the skill to remain really, really still. Knowing the skill and using the skill are completely different things, and not a damn thing about Skillwires nor Skillsofts force the user to use the skill it imparts. In fact, it gives them complete control over that skill.

Ludicrous? Okay, mate. Whatever you say. If Skillsofts worked even remotely like you THINK they work, and despite numerous rules that say exactly the opposite of what you THINK they say, no one would ever use them. Ever. Not even in an emergency. Who wants a robot taking over their body and doing everything for them, including 100% of their decision making on what to do with that skill?

Talk about ludicrous. If anything, you just seem to be in rampant denial because you're upset your "ingenious" plan fails on every conceivable level.