One house rule posted in a few places so far: making the Logic stat part of most Matrix and ECM skill rolls, and instead of the program grade adding dice, using it as a cap for hits (somewhat parallel to Force limit on hits for Spellcasting + Magic). I gather that many gamers thought that hackers should have a primary stat and/or that critical reasoning is part of the imagery or fluff of hacking. (Under RAW, the term "script kiddie" applies, meaning someone who just knows how to run the program but not enough to write or adapt programs, or search for loopholes in defenses, etc. IIRC, Bobby Quine in "Burning Chrome" could well be a script kiddie, he just slots the Kuang program and "rides" it... not that Gibson wrote from a coder's perspective.)
An alternate: Logic + Skill + Program Grade, and increase thresholds accordingly, much as better equipment adds to dice pool for many other tests.
I persuaded my GM to allow a heal wounds check of 1/2 BODY for a "taking it easy" day, lotsa naps and no strenuous activity (compare to 2x BODY for a full day of complete bed rest). Since I play a troll sam with high BODY, I got enough hits anyways.
What other house rules to 4th Edition are being used in gaming groups?
My main intent is to solicit house rules that a) explictly diverge from RAW, rather than being additions to the list of Qualities, the list of spells, etc. and b) are in actual use in ongoing games. There are some ongoing discussions, eg in the Augmentation thread, that may or may not have results specific enough to be "this is my house rule and it works for my group". With that said, I imagine that there may be interesting posts which diverge from my intent...
Full Version: 4E House Rules
I've played with Skill+Program+(1/2 Logic) before. I don't really like the common house rule of capping hits based on attribute or program, one time with that rule I managed to roll 10 hits and only had a 7 in logic. I know it's rare but it does happen.
...we've used the Logic + Skill capped by Programme rating for hacking and it seems to work just fine.
| QUOTE (Emperor Tippy) |
| one time with that rule I managed to roll 10 hits and only had a 7 in logic. I know it's rare but it does happen. |
That kind of thing happens with magic all the time. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and say 'The character did the absolute best job that could be done', and be happy with that.
...in the last session Violet (that's #6) almost routinely exceeded her programme rating. The thing is most Matrix tests are extended with the exception of Cybercombat. But even then, the IC (or opposing Matrix Specialist) is also limited by the node's (or her programme) rating.
Not a lot actually. But a couple of really big ones.
Sometimes (when I GM) cash, prices, and contacts are replaced by an adaptation of the most excellent Circles and Resources rules from Burning Wheel. Also Avail of hacker programs is Rating*3, making maximum starting rating 4. I find this gives more room for growth in hackers and is the key to aleviating a lot of the WTF factor in the Matrix.
Another big one is the numbers on the alternate ammo having a heavy dose of sanity applied to them. Well sanity and depleted uranium. Sort of like sweet and sour, two opposite tastes combined for one tongue tingling sensation!
That's really the most of it outside of occationally some leeway in new magical effects and creatures. Sort of house rules in that they aren't offical canon creatures and such. More an extension of the existing rules. You'll see that other thread the Luck Bastard magic Knack/Sorcerer Quality I'm working on here. That hasn't been used in play yet though. Just something I'm mulling over before putting forward for inclusion.
Sometimes (when I GM) cash, prices, and contacts are replaced by an adaptation of the most excellent Circles and Resources rules from Burning Wheel. Also Avail of hacker programs is Rating*3, making maximum starting rating 4. I find this gives more room for growth in hackers and is the key to aleviating a lot of the WTF factor in the Matrix.
Another big one is the numbers on the alternate ammo having a heavy dose of sanity applied to them. Well sanity and depleted uranium. Sort of like sweet and sour, two opposite tastes combined for one tongue tingling sensation!
That's really the most of it outside of occationally some leeway in new magical effects and creatures. Sort of house rules in that they aren't offical canon creatures and such. More an extension of the existing rules. You'll see that other thread the Luck Bastard magic Knack/Sorcerer Quality I'm working on here. That hasn't been used in play yet though. Just something I'm mulling over before putting forward for inclusion.
Ok heres another take on Logic use with programs.
Roll logic and use sucess's like a teamwork test, adding number of dice equal to sucess's to skill+program roll. Keeps numbers reasonable without haveing to cap.
Roll logic and use sucess's like a teamwork test, adding number of dice equal to sucess's to skill+program roll. Keeps numbers reasonable without haveing to cap.
... mmm, I dunno. Many of the house rules we had came up later in Augmentation. One was rolling only Body for healing tests and having wound modifiers apply (we didn't like RAW fast healing times) Also the rule for glitches in damage resistance tests and horrible effects.
Magic: direct damage combat spells have their drain modifiers raised by +1. There is a rationale to it but I'm too tired right now to do the explaining. A couple other spells are tweaked and there is a profusion of player-Gm generated spell in play; a fine example is: Speak with the Dead or Deathprobe (a restricted target version of Mind Probe that works on Dead People) plus others, now mostly contemplated with SM (though we didn't have it at the time we did the reasoning)
Combat: shooting with assault rifles and other long weapons like sniper rifles in restricted spaces sometimes needs a -ready weapon- action, depending on description and previous targets.
Running the shadows: Public awareness is SC+N / 5, not 3; we have even considered a factor of 10. Notoriety and Street Cred is regularly awarded on roleplaying reasons. Some nototiety points cannot be erased with SC without faking your own death or so.
Availability; "R" items are 20% more expensive, 50% plus for "F" items; a 10% markup for every 4 points in availability is expected if you are in a hurry. Extended tests can be rolled only -dice pool- times, otherwise you fail. Bonuses for Street Cred are capped by dice pool size.
Chargen and Advancement: attributes are *5. Mental attributes *3 but only until the character has surpassed 35 karma. (to round up the BP chargen "1"s)
Edge and Magic are always *3. Chars get Cha*2 contact points for free.
We are using a downtime random events table; lovingly called "Suerte o Muerte", there is a roll affected by the Edge you have left unspent from the last run before downtime and includes some random events like: "slander", "down with the flu", "robbed", "bad spirits", "out of town", "new acquaintance", "on fire", "milk run", "SOTA" and others. This table is quite dynamic and I mod it every once in a while. Basically it has minor events which can add something to the characters backstory/their contacts and could affect the following shadowrun.
That's all I can remember at the moment, I'm a little too tired to continue rambling coherently. Maybe I get back to this later with more.
Cheers,
Max
Magic: direct damage combat spells have their drain modifiers raised by +1. There is a rationale to it but I'm too tired right now to do the explaining. A couple other spells are tweaked and there is a profusion of player-Gm generated spell in play; a fine example is: Speak with the Dead or Deathprobe (a restricted target version of Mind Probe that works on Dead People) plus others, now mostly contemplated with SM (though we didn't have it at the time we did the reasoning)
Combat: shooting with assault rifles and other long weapons like sniper rifles in restricted spaces sometimes needs a -ready weapon- action, depending on description and previous targets.
Running the shadows: Public awareness is SC+N / 5, not 3; we have even considered a factor of 10. Notoriety and Street Cred is regularly awarded on roleplaying reasons. Some nototiety points cannot be erased with SC without faking your own death or so.
Availability; "R" items are 20% more expensive, 50% plus for "F" items; a 10% markup for every 4 points in availability is expected if you are in a hurry. Extended tests can be rolled only -dice pool- times, otherwise you fail. Bonuses for Street Cred are capped by dice pool size.
Chargen and Advancement: attributes are *5. Mental attributes *3 but only until the character has surpassed 35 karma. (to round up the BP chargen "1"s)
Edge and Magic are always *3. Chars get Cha*2 contact points for free.
We are using a downtime random events table; lovingly called "Suerte o Muerte", there is a roll affected by the Edge you have left unspent from the last run before downtime and includes some random events like: "slander", "down with the flu", "robbed", "bad spirits", "out of town", "new acquaintance", "on fire", "milk run", "SOTA" and others. This table is quite dynamic and I mod it every once in a while. Basically it has minor events which can add something to the characters backstory/their contacts and could affect the following shadowrun.
That's all I can remember at the moment, I'm a little too tired to continue rambling coherently. Maybe I get back to this later with more.
Cheers,
Max
I'd love to see a copy of that table. 
Echo that, that table sounds cool. Feel like doing a bit of charity for your Dumpshock pals?
| QUOTE (MaxHunter) |
| Availability; "R" items are 20% more expensive, 50% plus for "F" items; |
Is that on top of the modifiers in the Street Costs table on pg. 303 of the BB? I had always counted 'F' as having a permanent 'Law Enforcement crackdown on item', giving it the same %50.
My favorite house rule is the Ammo Faucet...
In every kitchen, bathroom, laundry room, or any room in any building that has a sink, there are three nozzles.... One for hot water, one for cold water, and one for bullets. I hate accounting for regular, piss-cheap, easy-to-obtain regular rounds, and I find making my players keep track of it to be tedious and boring. Ex-EX, APDS, Flechette, etc... all that still has to be bought. So I tell them that regular rounds come out of the faucet and spill into the sink.
I'm more concerned with how many rounds they carry with them on a job than how much they can horde up at home, so I give them the regular stuff for free so it's less headache for everyone.
In every kitchen, bathroom, laundry room, or any room in any building that has a sink, there are three nozzles.... One for hot water, one for cold water, and one for bullets. I hate accounting for regular, piss-cheap, easy-to-obtain regular rounds, and I find making my players keep track of it to be tedious and boring. Ex-EX, APDS, Flechette, etc... all that still has to be bought. So I tell them that regular rounds come out of the faucet and spill into the sink.
I'm more concerned with how many rounds they carry with them on a job than how much they can horde up at home, so I give them the regular stuff for free so it's less headache for everyone.
I like this house rule for matrix tests too:
Matrix tests are Logic + Skill and there are no program ratings. If the user does not have the correct program on their commlink, they take the standard -4 penalty for not having the right tools.
Matrix tests are Logic + Skill and there are no program ratings. If the user does not have the correct program on their commlink, they take the standard -4 penalty for not having the right tools.
| QUOTE (Buster) |
| I like this house rule for matrix tests too: Matrix tests are Logic + Skill and there are no program ratings. If the user does not have the correct program on their commlink, they take the standard -4 penalty for not having the right tools. |
That's the one I like the best.
I had so many house rules that my game looked like a different beast. Of course my house rules for 3rd edition became the 4th edition at a frightening rate.
I agree with Logic + Skill being the major factor. What I did was that you could do extended tests without the proper software but not fast hacking tests.
I also reversed the situation with the software ratings. Basically you have to have your software at the rating of your skill. If it is below then you take a penalty of the difference. If it is above then it doesn't have any extra effect because you can't really make use of the improvements - you don't know enough.
This made hacking software useless to non hackers so you don't have a situation where everyone has all the hacking programs and the hacker is barely needed.
A variant I came up with was to try and reverse the situation. I had deck as a different kind of commlink. You would connect it to your commlink so you needed both. The deck was built by the hacker and was a specialized device not sold. It had a device rating that was the lower of your Hardware, Programming, and Hacking Skills. This replaces all hacking software with this device rating. The device rating was the Body roll for attacks on the deck.
Now have all the major hacking targets are specializations of Hacking. You can hack a commlink without a specialization. You need a point in each specialization in order to not be defaulting. They can be things like satellites for communications interception, Drones for control override, Identity for ID changes and tracking, etc.
This makes the system very simple and skill driven which is the reality of the situation. A real hacker can hack with a weak computer as a challenge. Shadowrun has always forced them to be focused on money for their stuff because they didn't know how to deal with a character type not really motivated by money. A real hacker is in it for the challenge.
I agree with Logic + Skill being the major factor. What I did was that you could do extended tests without the proper software but not fast hacking tests.
I also reversed the situation with the software ratings. Basically you have to have your software at the rating of your skill. If it is below then you take a penalty of the difference. If it is above then it doesn't have any extra effect because you can't really make use of the improvements - you don't know enough.
This made hacking software useless to non hackers so you don't have a situation where everyone has all the hacking programs and the hacker is barely needed.
A variant I came up with was to try and reverse the situation. I had deck as a different kind of commlink. You would connect it to your commlink so you needed both. The deck was built by the hacker and was a specialized device not sold. It had a device rating that was the lower of your Hardware, Programming, and Hacking Skills. This replaces all hacking software with this device rating. The device rating was the Body roll for attacks on the deck.
Now have all the major hacking targets are specializations of Hacking. You can hack a commlink without a specialization. You need a point in each specialization in order to not be defaulting. They can be things like satellites for communications interception, Drones for control override, Identity for ID changes and tracking, etc.
This makes the system very simple and skill driven which is the reality of the situation. A real hacker can hack with a weak computer as a challenge. Shadowrun has always forced them to be focused on money for their stuff because they didn't know how to deal with a character type not really motivated by money. A real hacker is in it for the challenge.
| QUOTE ("Abschalten") |
In every kitchen, bathroom, laundry room, or any room in any building that has a sink, there are three nozzles.... One for hot water, one for cold water, and one for bullets. I hate accounting for regular, piss-cheap, easy-to-obtain regular rounds, and I find making my players keep track of it to be tedious and boring. Ex-EX, APDS, Flechette, etc... all that still has to be bought. So I tell them that regular rounds come out of the faucet and spill into the sink. |
I keep it similar. Why have the spellslinger who maybe fires a pistol clip full of ammo a month always worry about replacing every single bullet? As long as a character's lifestyle is not Street or Squatter and as long as he's not jumping around, covering everything in tons of lead, regular ammo is covered by lifestyle in my games.
| QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ Sep 24 2007, 07:20 PM) |
| I've played with Skill+Program+(1/2 Logic) before. I don't really like the common house rule of capping hits based on attribute or program, one time with that rule I managed to roll 10 hits and only had a 7 in logic. I know it's rare but it does happen. |
We do a Logic + Skill capped at Program Rating. We also use skill caps, so the cap is actually the lower of Program Rating or Skill + 1. In order to mitigate the issue with surpassing skill caps, I added a new positive quality that changes the skill cap from Skill + 1 to Skill x 2. Its basically an Advanced Specialization.
No one has taken it in my campaign yet, but I know that a couple are thinking about it as their dice pools get bigger.
Another house rule we use is for training. I used the availability tables and availability tests to find a trainer, much like you find any equipment. For training up to skill rating 3, I just say that it can be found as a matrix training program, so you don't have to find an actual person. Above that, you do. And based on the trainer's skills, I associate a cost, so it is pretty cut and dry and standardizes all the time and costs associated with training up skills.
We also have a house rule for movement. In order to divide everything down to an IP, we adjusted race walking and running rates to be evenly divisible by 4. That way, the math is really easy for movement during each IP.
As a related house rule, we made 1 meter = to 4 feet and then use 1 meter hexes on the maps. This makes it so no one is moving partial hexes as we play out combat. Its not 100% accurate to real-world, but it make combat movement faster and allows me to easily generate maps and distances, without having to do a bunch of conversions.
| QUOTE (deek @ Sep 25 2007, 09:29 AM) |
| We also have a house rule for movement. In order to divide everything down to an IP, we adjusted race walking and running rates to be evenly divisible by 4. That way, the math is really easy for movement during each IP. |
Now that's just brilliant. What rates do you use?
| QUOTE (Buster) |
| I like this house rule for matrix tests too: Matrix tests are Logic + Skill and there are no program ratings. If the user does not have the correct program on their commlink, they take the standard -4 penalty for not having the right tools. |
...the only issue I have with this is that some programme ratings are important such as Armor, Medic, ECM, & Biofeedback filter.
| QUOTE (Dashifen) | ||
Now that's just brilliant. What rates do you use? |
Well, there is not too much to change. Current rates are:
Humans, elves, orks Walking = 10m/turn, Running = 25m/turn
Dwarfs Walking = 8m/turn, Running = 20m/turn
Trolls Walking = 16m/turn, Running = 36m/turn
I changed them to:
Humans, elves, orks Walking = 12m/turn, Running = 24m/turn
Dwarfs Walking = 8m/turn, Running = 20m/turn
Trolls Walking = 16m/turn, Running = 36m/turn
or:
Humans, elves, orks Walking = 3m/IP, Running = 6m/IP
Dwarfs Walking = 2m/IP, Running = 4m/IP
Trolls Walking = 4m/IP, Running = 9m/IP
So, we just take a look at the movement per IP, and with a 1 meter = 1 hex, we just move hexes and don't worry about it.
And to add sprinting:
1 success = 2m/turn or 1m/IP (rounding up)
2 success = 4m/turn or 1m/IP
3 success = 6m/turn or 2m/IP (rounding up)
4 success = 8m/turn or 2m/IP
5 success = 10m/turn or 3m/IP
6 success = 12m/turn or 3m/IP
So it all flows pretty easy and really I only adjusted the human/elf/ork rates.
That works for me. I don't use hex maps, so that's not an issue in my games, but easily divisible movement rates are awesome. Thanks, deek.
| QUOTE (MaxHunter) |
| We are using a downtime random events table; lovingly called "Suerte o Muerte", there is a roll affected by the Edge you have left unspent from the last run before downtime and includes some random events like: "slander", "down with the flu", "robbed", "bad spirits", "out of town", "new acquaintance", "on fire", "milk run", "SOTA" and others. This table is quite dynamic and I mod it every once in a while. Basically it has minor events which can add something to the characters backstory/their contacts and could affect the following shadowrun. |
Any chance I/we can keep a copy of that?
I believe that the only house rules that we use are these.
- Cover modifiers are added to the defender's dice pool, not subtracted from the attacker's. Increasing an attacker's chance of glitching because his target ducked behind a car didn't make sense to us.
- Damage that exceeds a character's Body causes her to be knocked down, rather than damage that equals or exceeds it. We thought that characters were spending too much time on the ground.
- Rolling Initiative is optional after the first Combat Turn. It was just too much work; we like our combats to feel less like a war game and more like a running gunfight.
- Arcana can be used in place of a Magical Knowledge skill. This was mainly because Street Magic came out after the magician in our group started her character, and we made a deal that she could shift her BPs without losing the know-how that the character was supposed to have.
I recently implemented the Skill + Program capped by Logic rule for Matrix tests. It seems to be going over just fine.
ASIDE: I really don't see what the complaint about "script kiddies" and "making hackers useless" is all about. Yes, "non-hackers" can get hacking programs fairly cheaply/easily. However, even under RAW, they still need a fairly good Commlink and a decent Hacking, Computer, and Cybercombat skill to get anything reasonably done. My point is: if you have a "street sam" who has 1) An upgrade commlink 2) a full suite of hacking programs and 3) good skill ratings in computer/hacking skills... then are they really just a "street sam" anymore? Aren't they now a "hacker?" Stop thinking in a "class" mentality.
Other house rules:
Switching Activesofts isn't a simple action, it is a Free Action to deactivate one and a Complex action to load a new one. This makes Skillsofts (which are Commlink programs) follow the same rule as other Commlink programs.
Pistols can only mount Barrel accessories. (Came from a request by a player to put a Scope on a Pistol... I didn't see it happening)
Putting a Silencer on a weapon gives any perceiver a +2 bonus to notice the concealed weapon visually or by "pat down." (Can be offset by the Concealed Holster).
Swapped the bonuses for Full-VR vehicle piloting and Control Rig around, -2 Threshold is now conferred by the Control Rig, and Full-VR gives a +2 bonus on Driving Tests. This comes from my belief that the Control Rig is the more significant contributor and should get the better of the 2 bonuses.
ASIDE: I really don't see what the complaint about "script kiddies" and "making hackers useless" is all about. Yes, "non-hackers" can get hacking programs fairly cheaply/easily. However, even under RAW, they still need a fairly good Commlink and a decent Hacking, Computer, and Cybercombat skill to get anything reasonably done. My point is: if you have a "street sam" who has 1) An upgrade commlink 2) a full suite of hacking programs and 3) good skill ratings in computer/hacking skills... then are they really just a "street sam" anymore? Aren't they now a "hacker?" Stop thinking in a "class" mentality.
Other house rules:
Switching Activesofts isn't a simple action, it is a Free Action to deactivate one and a Complex action to load a new one. This makes Skillsofts (which are Commlink programs) follow the same rule as other Commlink programs.
Pistols can only mount Barrel accessories. (Came from a request by a player to put a Scope on a Pistol... I didn't see it happening)
Putting a Silencer on a weapon gives any perceiver a +2 bonus to notice the concealed weapon visually or by "pat down." (Can be offset by the Concealed Holster).
Swapped the bonuses for Full-VR vehicle piloting and Control Rig around, -2 Threshold is now conferred by the Control Rig, and Full-VR gives a +2 bonus on Driving Tests. This comes from my belief that the Control Rig is the more significant contributor and should get the better of the 2 bonuses.
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid) | ||
...the only issue I have with this is that some programme ratings are important such as Armor, Medic, ECM, & Biofeedback filter. |
iirc, the rule was that if a rating was needed, you used the commlink's response (and you also multiplied the commlink's cost by the response rating, iirc). the theory was that everyone just buys all the programs at max rating anyways, so this was basically just to save on bookkeeping, while still charging a roughly similar amount for the gear or something like that. (note: the programs still existed, just the player was assumed to start with all of them).
| QUOTE (Malachi) |
| Swapped the bonuses for Full-VR vehicle piloting and Control Rig around, -2 Threshold is now conferred by the Control Rig, and Full-VR gives a +2 bonus on Driving Tests. This comes from my belief that the Control Rig is the more significant contributor and should get the better of the 2 bonuses. |
problem being, how often are thresholds going to come up compared to how often +2 dice is useful?
Scopes on pistols are common for hunters.
See http://www.leupold.com/hunting-and-shootin...handgun-scopes/
See http://www.leupold.com/hunting-and-shootin...handgun-scopes/
| QUOTE (Jaid) |
| problem being, how often are thresholds going to come up compared to how often +2 dice is useful? |
Well someone using a Control Rig in full-VR are going to get both bonuses anyway. According to RAW, pg. 159 thresholds come up all the time. In SR3 the Control Rig reduced the TN by its rating, so reducing driving tests threshold by 2 seems more analogous in my mind. Conferring 2 "free hits" and reducing any driving test of up to Hard automatically down to Easy looks pretty powerful to me.
Agreed, I'd rather have a lower threshold then extra dice most of the time.
REAL hunters don't use pistols - they use knives!
Here are a few of the house rules we use:
1. No matter how many IPs a character has, when they use AR, I only allow 1 matrix action per combat turn. That way, a hacker in VR is always faster than a samurai using AR.
2. I let characters with cyberlimbs do physical damage on unarmed attacks.
3. When using Perception to search for weapons, rather than apply Concealability modifiers, I just change the threshold, depending on the size of the item.
4. I usually don't make characters roll language skills. Instead, we have a table that says how proficient a character is, based on his skill level.
5. For called shots to vulnerable areas, I give +1 DV for every -2 to the dice pool.
6. For some Extended Tests (like availability tests and data searches), I limit the number of rolls the player can make.
7. For some Extended Tests (like matrix data searches and decryption), I'll lengthen the interval with every die roll attempt. For instance, first die roll has an interval of 1 combat turn. Second interval is 1 minute. Third is one hour. Fourth is a day. Fifth is a week. This way, if you can do something in one roll (like decrypt a file), it'll take just one combat turn. However, if you need four rolls, it'll take 1 day 1 hour 1 min and 3 seconds of in game time to decrypt the file.
8. I've doubled the thresholds needed for the spell Improved Reflexes (2 hits per extra IP as opposed to 1 hit per extra IP). That means to get 3 extra IPs, the spell caster has to roll 6 hits which means the caster has to cast it at force 6.
I'm sure there are more but that's all I can think of right off the top of my head.
1. No matter how many IPs a character has, when they use AR, I only allow 1 matrix action per combat turn. That way, a hacker in VR is always faster than a samurai using AR.
2. I let characters with cyberlimbs do physical damage on unarmed attacks.
3. When using Perception to search for weapons, rather than apply Concealability modifiers, I just change the threshold, depending on the size of the item.
4. I usually don't make characters roll language skills. Instead, we have a table that says how proficient a character is, based on his skill level.
5. For called shots to vulnerable areas, I give +1 DV for every -2 to the dice pool.
6. For some Extended Tests (like availability tests and data searches), I limit the number of rolls the player can make.
7. For some Extended Tests (like matrix data searches and decryption), I'll lengthen the interval with every die roll attempt. For instance, first die roll has an interval of 1 combat turn. Second interval is 1 minute. Third is one hour. Fourth is a day. Fifth is a week. This way, if you can do something in one roll (like decrypt a file), it'll take just one combat turn. However, if you need four rolls, it'll take 1 day 1 hour 1 min and 3 seconds of in game time to decrypt the file.
8. I've doubled the thresholds needed for the spell Improved Reflexes (2 hits per extra IP as opposed to 1 hit per extra IP). That means to get 3 extra IPs, the spell caster has to roll 6 hits which means the caster has to cast it at force 6.
I'm sure there are more but that's all I can think of right off the top of my head.
hey fellows! I am back again, probably working too much this week but willing to contribute with my beloved "Suerte o Muerte" downtime table. Actually, half of it, because now I can't seem to find the file which has the complete thing. Maybe tomorrow after I have had some decent sleep I will be able to think proper.
Before I go on: Two things;
First, any of my players beware, this may spoil some fun, read at your own risk and don't trust your eyes.
Secondly, these are supposed to provide some guidelines and ideas to add "colour" to runs, they might seem crunchy but actually even I never use them as they are posted here. I also change the table every once in a while so I do not get bored. (hence the currently missing file)
Results are here to help character development, maybe focusing on aspect of the runners lives that not so often come up in play. Also to portray a more dynamic, "realistic" gameworld.
Basically I roll for characters at the end of a run, once every three or four runs and use the first ten-twenty minutes the next session before the new run to get them up to speed.
I roll 2d6 + (unspent) edge to find out what Fortune has in stock for each character...
I do not stick much with the mechanics, sometimes I put numbers in a hat and take one or whatever.
Usually results 2-7 are negative events, 8-9 are non events and 9+ are positive ones. I do change the odds every once in a while and also have a stock of more events to replace "used" ones. Now I have only the first half.
And that is all for today! I am sorry I didn't find the complete file, I am afraid I might have erased it by saving the partial one I found on top of the other. Well, maybe it's time for us to add more things and rebuild. I hope you like my ideas, please notice that these are intended just as additions to bring light to some games and take the backseat to actual running. Cheers!!
Max
Before I go on: Two things;
First, any of my players beware, this may spoil some fun, read at your own risk and don't trust your eyes.
Secondly, these are supposed to provide some guidelines and ideas to add "colour" to runs, they might seem crunchy but actually even I never use them as they are posted here. I also change the table every once in a while so I do not get bored. (hence the currently missing file)
Results are here to help character development, maybe focusing on aspect of the runners lives that not so often come up in play. Also to portray a more dynamic, "realistic" gameworld.
Basically I roll for characters at the end of a run, once every three or four runs and use the first ten-twenty minutes the next session before the new run to get them up to speed.
I roll 2d6 + (unspent) edge to find out what Fortune has in stock for each character...
I do not stick much with the mechanics, sometimes I put numbers in a hat and take one or whatever.
Usually results 2-7 are negative events, 8-9 are non events and 9+ are positive ones. I do change the odds every once in a while and also have a stock of more events to replace "used" ones. Now I have only the first half.
[ Spoiler ]
And that is all for today! I am sorry I didn't find the complete file, I am afraid I might have erased it by saving the partial one I found on top of the other. Well, maybe it's time for us to add more things and rebuild. I hope you like my ideas, please notice that these are intended just as additions to bring light to some games and take the backseat to actual running. Cheers!!
Max
| QUOTE (Malachi) |
| I recently implemented the Skill + Program capped by Logic rule for Matrix tests. It seems to be going over just fine. ASIDE: I really don't see what the complaint about "script kiddies" and "making hackers useless" is all about. Yes, "non-hackers" can get hacking programs fairly cheaply/easily. However, even under RAW, they still need a fairly good Commlink and a decent Hacking, Computer, and Cybercombat skill to get anything reasonably done. My point is: if you have a "street sam" who has 1) An upgrade commlink 2) a full suite of hacking programs and 3) good skill ratings in computer/hacking skills... then are they really just a "street sam" anymore? Aren't they now a "hacker?" Stop thinking in a "class" mentality. |
It's not about any 'class' thinking. It's that if you take a 14 year old kid, with a Cracking of 1, (That's beginner. "Has done this a few times. Can handle some easy tasks, some of the time.") and give him the rating 6 OS and comlink, and pit him against Dodger and his Cracking of 6 (Elite. "The 'best of the rest.'"), but give Dodger a Rating 1 OS/comlink, the kid will beat the crap out of him all day long: Dodger will never get more than 2 success, while the kid can buy 3 successes every time. The skill of the hacker should count for more than the programs that he's running.
Needless to say, we've been trying this one out. It's worked well so far.
I like the idea of cover adding to the defender's dice pool. Sterling, take note. :>
I use the same cover rule. Really liked the IP/movement factor of four up above, maybe I'll try it.
Cheers,
Max, still not sleeping
Cheers,
Max, still not sleeping
| QUOTE |
| I recently implemented the Skill + Program capped by Logic rule for Matrix tests. It seems to be going over just fine. |
In nearly 2 years of Shadowrun play I actually haven't seen an issue with RAW outside of the low canon Avail on the hacker programs and maybe the prices for the rating 4+ hacker programs. Even those are mostly workable, you just don't see as much advancement room unless your players realize it's a short-sighted bad idea go nuts buying programs and voluntarily curb their participation in the program rating arms race.
All these house rules with this limiting this and that and so on seem much ado and fiddling about nothing. The rules work fine. For those that have their metaphorical undies in a knot about game balance and pushing use of Logic, hackers tend to get lots of mileage out of a solid Logic Attribute. Even outside of the hacker skills in Logic+skill senarios. GMs/players, you do call for/use Knowledge tests. Right?
Woe is the hacker with a crappy Logic score.
Badass, MaxHunter.
I like it.
/yoink
- der menkey
Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter.
~Ernest Hemingway
I like it.
/yoink
- der menkey
Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter.
~Ernest Hemingway
| QUOTE (MaxHunter) |
| ... my beloved "Suerte o Muerte" downtime table ... |
Very nice. It's a decent idea all around. Thanks.
Max, that's really nifty. Consider it yoinked.
Contacts cost loyalty TIMES rating in my game, but you get charisma + ettiqutte free BP for buying them. I also have enemies, which have a negative loyalty rating, and thusly give points back. In my game, BP and Karma are interchangeable, and so things cost the same at character creation and in game.
Trolls don't have awesome movement. They have the same movement as dwarves. Their legs are proportionally short and they aren't built for running. Troll movement rates have seen a creep with editions, and I prefer the old school numbers.
Languages never require a skill check. You are either passable (rating 1) which means you can communicate concepts but not well, giving a -2 penalty to checks involving communication. Next is conversational (rating 2) which has no penalty. For every rating point above 2, you are fluent in a specific dialect of the language, able to pass for a native speaker. This can eliminate penalties when talking to xenophobes, or aid in disguise.
Technomancers don't have a built in radio. They have a biological skinlink, that works with any device they touch, even if the device is not skinlink-enabled. They can use the signal rating of any device they are touching, routing their persona through it. I just like the feel of it better.
I have general guidelines for signal repeating, actually: and for connecting with the cell network to use it's rebroadcast capability. Repeating a signal counts as one program running on that node. Response is limited to the lowest rating in the chain. The cell network can be accessed by any device with a signal of 1 or greater, and can rebroadcast your signal indefinately with no slowdown, but someone can locate your signal on the cell networks node, possibly tapping it. It's less secure than direct linkage. A lot of people participate in a "frequency-share" program, where they dedicate a certain amount of their commlink's processing power to rebroadcasting other people's signals, kind of a bittorrent approach to access. It's more secure than the cell network but much less reliable, something like your response rating is limited to the result of an edge check.
Trolls don't have awesome movement. They have the same movement as dwarves. Their legs are proportionally short and they aren't built for running. Troll movement rates have seen a creep with editions, and I prefer the old school numbers.
Languages never require a skill check. You are either passable (rating 1) which means you can communicate concepts but not well, giving a -2 penalty to checks involving communication. Next is conversational (rating 2) which has no penalty. For every rating point above 2, you are fluent in a specific dialect of the language, able to pass for a native speaker. This can eliminate penalties when talking to xenophobes, or aid in disguise.
Technomancers don't have a built in radio. They have a biological skinlink, that works with any device they touch, even if the device is not skinlink-enabled. They can use the signal rating of any device they are touching, routing their persona through it. I just like the feel of it better.
I have general guidelines for signal repeating, actually: and for connecting with the cell network to use it's rebroadcast capability. Repeating a signal counts as one program running on that node. Response is limited to the lowest rating in the chain. The cell network can be accessed by any device with a signal of 1 or greater, and can rebroadcast your signal indefinately with no slowdown, but someone can locate your signal on the cell networks node, possibly tapping it. It's less secure than direct linkage. A lot of people participate in a "frequency-share" program, where they dedicate a certain amount of their commlink's processing power to rebroadcasting other people's signals, kind of a bittorrent approach to access. It's more secure than the cell network but much less reliable, something like your response rating is limited to the result of an edge check.
| QUOTE (Jaid) | ||||
iirc, the rule was that if a rating was needed, you used the commlink's response (and you also multiplied the commlink's cost by the response rating, iirc). the theory was that everyone just buys all the programs at max rating anyways, so this was basically just to save on bookkeeping, while still charging a roughly similar amount for the gear or something like that. (note: the programs still existed, just the player was assumed to start with all of them). |
Yeah, that was basically the idea. For those times when you need a program's rating I've toyed with using System and/or Response. Currently in my game I'm using System, which under the current incarnation of my house rule, is not being completely devoured by the Response rating.
As for playtesting feedback, so far it's been working really well in my game. I have a large group that includes one full-time hacker, two people who hack occasionally, a couple people you'd consider the "average" computer user, and one neo-luddite. The full-time hacker loves it. He still has to juggle program load and doesn't feel as though he's lost any of the depth of hacking. The occasional hackers like it because they don't have to reference the book to figure out what program they need to do the occasional task. The average users like it because if you have a high logic you can actually do simple tasks without running to the hacker every time you need a trivial data search in a non-stressful situation, and without knowing what programs you need, what to load, what to roll, etc. We can just assume they have the right program, assume they take the time to load it into memory ('cause if it were urgent the hacker would be doing it), and roll Logic+Skill, defaulting if necessary. The neo-luddite just throws knives at people.
The overall effect I've observed is that just about everyone is a competent computer user, but it's the hacker's logic and skill that make him great, not his programs, and everyone finds the matrix a lot quicker and more accessible.
I have an untested system for technomancers that sort of brings them in line with my hacker rules. It seems to make technomancers a bit overpowered later in the game (relative to hackers), but that's not necessarily a bad thing, considering that they're one-trick ponies anyway. Although, I have a feelling that all the new essence-costing hacker 'ware in Augmentation has rebalanced the two nicely, even in the context of my house-rules.
Oh hell, since somebody else brought it up anyway here they are, one more time (forgive me, it's a work in progress):
[ Spoiler ]
I tend to do something like the the multiples of 4 movement but have dropped the numbers rather than raising them as the rate as per the BBB make it worryingly easy for a character to hit olympic running speeds. I also always spread movement over four passes.
I have changed Karma costs a bit...
Skills New Rating*1.5
Skill Groups New*3
Knowledge Skills New
Attributes New*3
Complex Forms 5 karma (rating equals resonance and cost 3 in char gen)
I'm toying with limiting Program rating with logic
Wired Reflexes cost 1.5 ess and 15000nuyen/level
Adept initiative boosts cost 1.5/level
Adept attribute increase cost 0.5
Free Contacts equal to Cha*3
I have changed Karma costs a bit...
Skills New Rating*1.5
Skill Groups New*3
Knowledge Skills New
Attributes New*3
Complex Forms 5 karma (rating equals resonance and cost 3 in char gen)
I'm toying with limiting Program rating with logic
Wired Reflexes cost 1.5 ess and 15000nuyen/level
Adept initiative boosts cost 1.5/level
Adept attribute increase cost 0.5
Free Contacts equal to Cha*3
Thanks MaxHunter! Going to tweak it towards my needs/mood. Now get some fraggin' sleep, while ya?
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp @ Sep 26 2007, 09:36 AM) |
| Technomancers don't have a built in radio. They have a biological skinlink, that works with any device they touch, even if the device is not skinlink-enabled. They can use the signal rating of any device they are touching, routing their persona through it. I just like the feel of it better. |
Yeah, I like the feel of that take too. Not that it makes a huge difference in the mechanics of play most of the time because of the relatively large number items around. But it is a nice mellowing of the rather jarring "my body is a radio station" concept and IMO gives a vivid, very tactile twist to the ability that is easy to mime at the table.
Plus it's got sort of a Fonzarelli vibe going, and that can't be bad.
Nice.
I love the idea of the movement rates by pass....
How about the order of the passes though...? Like 4,1,3,2..
That makes shakes it up a little and spreads it out? Doesn't quite give us sr2/sr3 actions every 10 counts, but it spreads the extra passes out a little better....
How about the order of the passes though...? Like 4,1,3,2..
That makes shakes it up a little and spreads it out? Doesn't quite give us sr2/sr3 actions every 10 counts, but it spreads the extra passes out a little better....
I do 4,2,3,1 myself, Redjack. It has worked well so far, except that normals are even more boned without at least one extra pass. I now let people go full defense unless surprised even if they haven't gone yet and it's the first initiative pass.
Chris
Chris
@DTFarstar:
Actually, characters can declare full defense as an interrupt action at any time. See the bottom of the first column on page 151 of SR4 for more information.
Actually, characters can declare full defense as an interrupt action at any time. See the bottom of the first column on page 151 of SR4 for more information.
...Jaid, Moon-Hawk & Blakkie. For now we are going to stay with the Skill + Attribute capped by Programme. This is a trial to see how well it works (or doesn't) in various circumstances. Our take on the RAW regarding hacking is that it is the only skill test that does not use the standard mechanic. If the game was intended to be streamlined, all skill tests should be the same (Skill + Attribute +/- modifiers).
Another variant we tried was using programme rating similar to how a medikit works with First Aid but that made for totally outrageous DPs.
Another variant we tried was using programme rating similar to how a medikit works with First Aid but that made for totally outrageous DPs.
| QUOTE (Kyoto Kid @ Sep 27 2007, 08:58 AM) |
| ...Jaid, Moon-Hawk & Blakkie. For now we are going to stay with the Skill + Attribute capped by Programme. This is a trial to see how well it works (or doesn't) in various circumstances. Our take on the RAW regarding hacking is that it is the only skill test that does not use the standard mechanic. If the game was intended to be streamlined, all skill tests should be the same (Skill + Attribute +/- modifiers). |
That is the thing, RAW does use the standard A + B +/-modifiers where A and B are the two most pertanent core sources. Although A and B not being Skill and Attribute is a little unusual there are other cases of this with Attribute and Attribute. It's these house rules of adding caps and other stuff that is really deviating (although the way you are doing it is sort of like spellcasting). It just seems to be extra futzing around something that already is scaled to their opponents ingame and works fine.
EDIT: But if it works for you. *shrug* So be it.
| QUOTE |
| Another variant we tried was using programme rating similar to how a medikit works with First Aid but that made for totally outrageous DPs. |
Yeah. I'm not crazy about First Aid being oddball. Especially with the way that capping works. But it seems to mostly work because that isn't versus anything and good healing leads to good game pacing and keeping people involved. Plus there are a lot of negative modifiers that apply to healing when you are out in the field and there is often a lot of Threshhold room for healing.
That isn't the case with hacking because those are largely vs. the machine or Technos.
Huh, thanks Dashifen. When I was typing that it felt slightly wrong. Oh well, at least I was doing it correctly if for the wrong reasons. I guess it was just a memory carry over from DnD. That damn game sublet a huge portion of my cerebral cortex with all of it's damn rules.
Chris
Chris
| QUOTE (DTFarstar) |
| I guess it was just a memory carry over from DnD. That damn game sublet a huge portion of my cerebral cortex with all of it's damn rules. |
That portion: it's called a tumor.
| QUOTE (PlatonicPimp) |
| Languages never require a skill check. You are either passable (rating 1) which means you can communicate concepts but not well, giving a -2 penalty to checks involving communication. Next is conversational (rating 2) which has no penalty. For every rating point above 2, you are fluent in a specific dialect of the language, able to pass for a native speaker. This can eliminate penalties when talking to xenophobes, or aid in disguise. |
I don't make my characters roll Language Skill checks, but I do enforce this rule:
| QUOTE (SR4 @ pg. 130) |
When a character attempts to influence someone using another language, her persuasive ability is limited by her ability to convey ideas and concepts in that language. To reflect this, whenever a character uses a Charisma-linked Social skill to interact with another character in a non-native tongue, the Social skill dice used may not exceed the character’s Language skill rating. |
Kinda puts a clamp on those super "pornomancer" adepts...
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